Talk:Plaza del Lago

Untitled
If you don't believe it's the oldest, remember there used to be village downtowns. By 1917 car ownership Had increased on the North shore making it hard to park in these downtowns. The advance plot of the Spanish Court was set around car ownership and travel on Sheridan allowing adequet parking, and stores placed close enough to walk from one to one. This concept (a mall) wasn't really even picked up until 20 years after the Spanish court showing how advanced the idea was.
 * I hadn't heard of Plaza del Lago before, but it seems to have an interesting history, and certainly seems to have been a very early shopping center, just a few years after Country Club Plaza.--Milowent (talk) 05:59, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Article Improvement
I'd be happy to work with you on improving the article, however I'm currently overloaded with assignments and not in a position to do any serious work on anything for a week or so. I don't have access to highbeam but I might be willing to purchase a couple of the cheaper articles you've found to help expand the article. I'll get back to you, cheers. Freikorp (talk) 07:58, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, i'll give it a first go and we'll see where that gets us.--Milowent (talk) 13:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Okeydokey, in a position to work on this now. Firstly is the Plaza's 'calendar' a reliable source? Its 2009 and 10 calendar (which I'm guessing is some kind of free calendar available within the plaza) are cited quite heavily, also I'm a tad confused as to what the reference "Chicago Apraisal Research Counslers, 1979" is about (i.e is it a book or are we just going by what some guys said back in 79). I'm happy to pull either one of these references you listed, if you think they would be of particular help to the article. What do you think needs to be worked on? Freikorp (talk) 08:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey Freikorp, I lifted this discussion from my talk page so others can help out as well if they want. I think the Plaza's website (and calendar) is not a preferred source ideally, but we can use it if needed to fill in noncontroversial blanks.  I'll go back to some of the news cites I saw to determine if I can access any.--Milowent (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. :) Yeah I think your right about the 'hit or miss' call with the pay sites. Also just wanted to say great work with the research regarding the '2nd oldest shopping center claim'. Well done. Freikorp (talk) 12:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Is the new 'Adjacent shopping' section notable enough to remain in the article? Are we also going to mention what's down the road? Freikorp (talk) 20:54, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL, no. I deleted that, as well as the name of the rental agent.  Our friend SecretName101 who created this article seems very knowledgeable upon the center and surrounding area (perhaps with a direct connection to the center), but is still learning the ropes.--Milowent (talk) 04:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I also updated the article altering from a shop stated as being now occupied to having previously been occupied by Blockbuster (it is now a vacant store). -Annonomous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.187.230 (talk) 20:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

2nd oldest shopping center claim
OK, that's all for now.--Milowent (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The claim that Plaza del Lego is the second oldest shopping center in the United States is going to need more clarification and explanation. It is certainly one of the earliest, and there are various shopping centers that make claims at being the oldest using slightly different variations.  Its fun to research, because even though shopping centers and malls have a huge influence on the way people live today, the scholarly treatment appears to be spotty (and dates fluctuate).  Here is some information I have learned while digging around, and I'm parking it here for potential use elsewhere (like improving Shopping mall) as well.  Where I come out right now as to Plaza del Lago (2010-Feb-17) is concluding that Plaza del Lago is (a) one of the earliest shopping centers in the country, is the (b) 1st automobile focused shopping center in Illinois (Cf. Market Square discussed below, which is older but different), and (c) has at times claimed or been reported to be the 2nd oldest shopping center in the U.S.
 * Roland Park (often cited as 1896, but other sources say 1907) - the Plaza del Lago article, when created, had a claim that Roland Park was the 1st shopping center.. Apparently there is a Guinness world record claim that this was first(1991 Guinness book includes it, but apparently it had only six stores (I believe in a single building), so this "barely qualifies". .  Guinness apparently includes the 1896 build date, though a 1903 House & Garden magazine viewable online makes no mention of a shopping center, but instead details the car service needed to commute to the "shopping districts" of Baltimore, and that the unpleasant ride is the "one serious defect of the locality".  (Also, the historical marker at the shopping strip  says that planning for that section of the development did not start until 1897.)
 * Market Square (Lake Forest, Illinois) (1916). I created this article recently.  This place's website refers to itself as "the 'first artfully designed shopping center in the country,' ".  A very notable development, it essentially replaced the downtown district in the town with a new planned shopping district, and while planning for automobile transit was important, it wasn't intended to be a regional destination as much as a community center.  On these grounds its generally not considered to be the "first".
 * Country Club Plaza (1923). The wikipedia article currently refers to this as "the first shopping center in the world designed to accommodate shoppers arriving by automobile," and this claim appear to be mostly true and generally agreed upon, especially in terms of it being constructed on the outskirts of a city and intending to be a regional destination.  The book I cited above notes that creator of this development, Jesse Clyde Nichols, later founded the Urban Land Institute and was influential on the development of suburbia.  I think that helped Country Club Plaza become recognized generally as the "first" shopping center.
 * Plaza del Lago (1928) - Drawings for "Spanish Court" were started in 1926 and it opened in 1928 per the current article. (The Spanish imagery both in Country Club Plaza and Spanish Court derives from the traditional Spanish concept of a plaza as an urban public square; indeed the plaza article makes such an unsourced claim, but there are sources for that.)
 * Grandview Avenue Shopping Center (Columbus, Ohio) (1928) "Country Club Plaza in Kansas City, Mo., (1922) is generally regarded as the first in the nation, followed by Grandview Avenue Shopping Center in Columbus, Ohio (1928), according to the International Council of Shopping Centers." Cited as a model for later strip mall design:.  Described as a "strip":
 * Suburban Square (Ardmore, Pennsylvania) (1928). Designed similar to Country Club Plaza.  The Ardmore article currently claims that this development is "the second oldest shopping center in the U.S." (citing a local history book).  This book cites Suburban Square as among the earliest, also mentioning Country Club Plaza and Highland Park Village (see below), and says only eight "full blown" shopping centers existed in the U.S. by 1946.  Another book lists the eight as:  Upper Darby Center (Philadelphia) (1927--another source says this was simply a strip of stores and not a shopping center), Suburban Square (1928), Highland Park (1931), River Oaks (Houston) (1937), Hampton Village (St. Louis) (1941), Colony (Toledo, OH) (1944), Shirlington (Arlington, VA) (1944), Belleview Square (Seattle) (1946).  (This list is unlikely to be without dispute, of course, as it omits Plaza del Lago and Market Square, as well as Westwood Village - Los Angeles circa. 1928).  Suburban Square may be notable as the first center to have a department store open in it (in 1930) (though a Marshall Field's opened in Market Square in 1928!).  Samuel Feinberg, author of "What makes shopping centers tick?" (1960, free on google) says Suburban Square was the first shopping center in the Philly area..  And the 1975 Guinness book claims "The world's first shopping center was "Suburban Square" in Ardmore, Pennsylvania, built in 1928." (I'm sure they loved that coup and I wonder how long it lasted in there!) (See also  ("Suburban Square is possibly the oldest suburban shopping center in the nation. ``We argue about it all the time,...")
 * Westwood Village, Los Angeles, California (opened October 1929). Refreshingly does not appear to claim to be first, but certainly the first in California.  Design similar to Country Club Plaza.
 * Highland Park Village (1931) - Wiki article currently claims it to be "the first self-contained shopping center in America." I've seen some references to this Dallas center making typically bold Texas-like claims of being first. It also has Spanish architecture.  "Self-contained" means it was the first designed to be inward facing with parking in the interior area.  The designers of Highland Park Village visited Country Club Plaza while they were planning, and this inward facing design was a big change they made.
 * River Oaks (Houston) (1937) (neighborhood -- River Oaks, Houston)- A NY Times article had to post this amusing correction to a 2006 article, "An article on Aug. 12 about efforts to preserve the River Oaks shopping center and other Houston landmarks from demolition attributed an erroneous distinction to the center from its owner, Weingarten Realty Investors. The shopping center, dating from 1937, is not the oldest in Texas and second-oldest in the nation. Highland Park Village in Dallas was the first to open in Texas, in 1931. Country Club Plaza in Kansas City, Mo., (1922) is generally regarded as the first in the nation, followed by Grandview Avenue Shopping Center in Columbus, Ohio (1928), according to the International Council of Shopping Centers."
 * The above may be updated over time, as I've just done.--Milowent (talk) 18:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Maybe add some of this to the article itself
This is great information, and it would be worth you considering potentially adding briefs of this info (alongside sources) to the Plaza del Lago article itself.SecretName101 (talk) 01:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Reexamining the Ranking of the Article
This article is currently categorized as stub-class, but that does not appear to be an accurate rating for the current state of this article. I'd suggest a re-examination, as (with or without personal bias) this article would appear to far exceed the criteria for a stub-class article as far as I am concerned.SecretName101 (talk) 01:42, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, I beleive this article's status needs to be re-examined.SecretName101 (talk) 23:09, 18 February 2017 (UTC)