Talk:Pohjanmaa-class corvette

Ice class 1A
Someone has asked for sources regarding the statement that Pohjanmaas will have ice-breaking capabilities, the thing is it's such a normal thing for ships built in Finland to have ice class 1A that it isn't talked about any more than people discuss a ship having a rudder.

There is also the fact that Baltic Sea freezes every year, Finland has laws that encourage ship owners to operate ships capable of breaking ice on their own so they don't have to pay extra fees/taxes used to provide ice breaking services to ships that lack the capability. Furthermore, it makes no sense for Finnish Navy to operate a class of warships with a price tag of 1.3 billion if they can't even get out of port on their own in winter.

Because of these points I believe that no source is needed for the statement that Pohjanmaas will have a Finnish ice classification of at least 1A (possibly even better.) Ape89 (talk) 05:05, 27 September 2019 (UTC)


 * While it has been reported that the new corvettes will be strengthened for navigation in ice and have some independent ice-going capability, I haven't seen an article from WP:RS where their ice class is clearly defined as 1A. Thus, I recommend removing this information from the article. After all, unless we can find a reference, we don't know what will be the ice class of these ships. Tupsumato (talk) 07:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I have gone forth and hidden the ice class from the article until it can be properly cited. Tupsumato (talk) 11:21, 27 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, while I still think that the Pohjanmaas will obviously be designed with at least class 1A specs, I concede that WP:CK is a slippery slope.Ape89 (talk) 17:11, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Corvette vs. frigate
There has been some discussion in the Finnish media about the classification of the new Squadron 2020 surface combatants. The Finnish Navy refers to them as multi-role corvettes, but some commentators and reporters have noted that by displacement they should be classified as frigates. While I fully agree that this issue should be covered by the article, officially they are classified as corvettes and that's a citeable fact that the article should reflect. Thus, please don't start changing "corvette" to "frigate" in the lead or in the infobox. Tupsumato (talk) 20:19, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

The size of vessels of various classifications has been going up continuously for more than 100 years. The first destroyers ("torpedo boat destroyers")were about the size of modern MTBs at under 300 tons displacement, WWI destroyers were comparable to modern small corvettes at around 1000 tons, WWII destroyers were comparable to modern frigates at up to 3000 tons while modern destroyers are anything up to 10 000 tons, equivalent to WWII heavy cruisers. Similarly, frigates have grown in size so that while WWII frigates were around 1500 tons, the largest current classes (e.g., the German Baden-Württemberg class, British Type 26, etc.) are in the 7000+ ton range, more than double the "traditional" 3000 ton maximum mentioned in the text, nearly double the British Type 42 destroyers of the 1970s and equivalent to WWII light cruisers. Corvettes in WWI started around 1000 tons but have also grown since. By current Western standards, the Pohjanmaa class are at the small end of frigates and the large end of corvettes; there is no clear-cut border as far as displacement is concerned. It stands to reason that by the time the Pohjanmaa class are operational -- and certainly in the course of their planned use life -- the normal range of corvettes will be up to 3500 tons; note that the Kamorta class of the Indian Navy already weigh in at 3300 tons. Whether the Pohjanmaa class should be referred to as frigates of corvettes seems thus to be primarily a political issue.--Jarmo K. (talk) 22:33, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall hearing people crumbling about the Finnish Navy classifying fast attack craft as "missile boats", supposedly in order to downplay their offensive capabilities, this current crumbling about the new Pohjanmaas sounds like more of the same. Ape89 (talk) 17:27, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

citations not needed
I removed three tags as unnecessary; Gabriel 5's selection in 2018 was already cited elsewhere in the article, and the fact that Pohjanmaas will have sea mine laying capability is clearly stated on the Ministry of Defence's Squadron 2020 project page, as for the width of Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen, is there really a need to cite sources for such trivia? Ape89 (talk) 20:26, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sources for Gabriel 5 and sea mines cited, also added a link to a pdf by Ministry of Defence also mentioning mine laying as one of Pohjanmaas' roles. Ape89 (talk) 21:03, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a good practice to use in-line citations for every fact in the article if they are located in separate paragraphs. Tupsumato (talk) 09:39, 9 March 2020 (UTC)