Talk:Poison Ivy (character)/Archive 1

Controversy
I don't recall there being any controversy concerning Ivy's skin color. And she's been portrayed as green-skinned ever since the formula fell on her in Catwoman (at least in the comics; I dont know how the other media portrays her).--DrBat 02:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I know you're obviously a comics fan but other media is just as important as the comics... Elsewhere she has been alternately displayed as having both white or green skin at varying times and appearances.. --65.98.21.69 02:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Still, the comics is the main universe. Furthermore, I don't recall there being any real controversy over the white-green skin colors. --DrBat 05:08, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You should've read the DC message boards then. Some people didn't even know Ivy had green skin and were confused when she appeared in Batgirl as such.  Other discussions were completely dedicated to her skin color.  So, it is a question that has been asked repeatedly.  And her skin color has not always been consistent.  On the cover of the issue of Batgirl that she was in, she had alabastor skin.  On the inside she was green.

Name of article
It seems a bit, um, strange to have "Poison Ivy" to be an article on the comics character instead of the disamb page. But oh well... Jorge Stolfi 19:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Are there any other articles as significant as the character that have Ivy capitalized? --DrBat 23:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Censoring Anon
I note that the anonymous IP 69.183.6.222 has removed everything referring to a potential Harley/Ivy relationship from the Harley Quinn page as well as this one, and I'm assuming they removed the link to the Poison Ivy gallery page that was here because it also refers to Harley/Ivy. I've replaced it because regardless of feelings on Harley/Ivy, it's still first and foremost a Poison Ivy gallery.


 * Statements in the text to a potential lesbian relationship between the two may be inappropriate without pointing toward direct in-canon references. Otherwise, it smacks a bit of original research. 24.62.27.66 02:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the site text is biased in favour of the relationship, but as it's an image gallery rather than a character biography or information page, I didn't think the text would be particularly important since people can draw their own conclusions from the images. Admittedly it doesn't have "the" scene that pretty much started the speculation, (which was in Batgirl Adventures #1 from Feb 1998 I think) but it does have a couple of suggestive mainstream images. Especially this one.

Page Ninteeen

Anyway, it's technically a bit more than an image gallery, but It's definitely not bad for a fansite. Plenty of reason to list it. Plus, it looks like wikipedians might have gotten a few of the images in this article from there. Ha!

Ace Class Shadow 21:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

As I said in my edit (when I forgot to sign in, sorry), the "Harley-Ivy" slash coupling obviously got started simply by a lot of fans wishing really hard at their TV screens. Stuff like that doesn't need to be mentioned on wiki, you'll get it in any fandom with any two characters. What does bear mentioning is that the Ivy-Harley speculation became so well known that even people writing the books began to make references and jokes about it. This is something worth noting - wiki is ideally meant to be a resource for new readers to get up to speed, and just cutting it out of the article is of no use to anyone. D1Puck1T 07:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Categories
The category 'Evil Scientists' is a pointless category. it's got a stack of fictional and nonfictional persons in it, making it a useless jumble of WIki articles ripe for POV issues. the whole thing should be removed, since a Jehovah's Witness could easily add Louis Pasteur and Jonas Salk to it. Instead revert it to Ficitonal Scientists or Evil Comic Book Scientists, or Fictional Evil Scientists. Evil Scientists calls for judgements, and WIki's POV policies preclude such. As such, it's reverted to the more accurate and more NPOV Fictional Scientists.ThuranX 17:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Pamela Isley
Could someone create a Dr. Pamela Isley article because Poison Ivy once was Dr. Isley before she got her powers. 12.73.122.124 21:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no reason to create one. If you REALLY feel the need, make it only as a redirect to this page.ThuranX 23:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Crossbow
has she ever used a normal crossbow, or just the one mounted on her wrist? -Lordraydens 07:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * To the best of my recollection, she's used both.ThuranX 13:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Image
Anyone know why this was changed? thoughts on the new image? I preferred the old one, which was taken from 'in continuity' covers, instead of the movie tie-in. ThuranX 11:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know, but I don't like this image either. It's a great book, but lousy cover art.  I'm in favor of bringing back the Brian Bolland cover.  Also, the current image is really nothing but a pin-up of Ivy, but the Bolland cover embodied her personality and gave a better idea of who the character is.

--Carnyfoke 02:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)Carnyfoke


 * I honestly don't prefer either. The current one looks too... I dunno, she looks really sick in that one. The one before (The movie tie-in one) was just too Playboy-cover... Does anyone have like, a pic of her from the Long Halloween comics, or Dark Victory? I thought that always was an awesome look for her, and its more modren than the one right now (She just looks ill!).
 * -Jack Of Hearts-


 * How is her look from TLH or DV a modern interpretation of her? They take place at years 2-3, and Tim Sale is the only one to draw her like that.  The profile image is just an accurate representation of the character's current aesthetics.  Right now, the character has green skin, wild red hair, and a leaf bodice (i.e. Jim Lee).  The image should be an iconic representation of the character and not depict a look that only one artist drew (like the one you just put up with the tights and the thigh-high boots).  And being sickly and not quite right is part of the character's current characterization.  She's poison and can make people vomit and die at touch. ;)

--Carnyfoke 15:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)Carnyfoke

Someone edited in a new image today. I'm not thrilled with cheap chestshot drawings, but it's not awful. If someone could find a better artist doing a simliar shot with more decorum, I think it'd be a good compromise. Thoughts? ThuranX 23:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Years 2-3? Oh. Okay, nevermind then I guess...
 * I'd just prefer some other picture than the current one, I dunno why. Alrighty...
 * -Jack Of Hearts-

Possible compromise (if one's still needed). We can just use her DCDP image by Jim Lee. The look is current and has been what most DC artists have been drawing her as. My only complaint is that this image is so over-used in her online and DC-marketed bios. http://www.dcdatabaseproject.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Poisonivyhush.jpg --Carnyfoke 16:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Might be a reasonable compromise, if allthe proper citation information for it's use can be provided.ThuranX 18:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Origin
The post-crisis Woodrue origin provided doesn't sound right. The "Woodrue impersonating LeGrande" part is inaccurate. Woodrue himself seduced Isley, as seen in the Legends of the Dark Knight story Hot House, Batman: Poison Ivy, and Shadow of the Bat Annual #3. And I don't think that "Dr." should be included in her name. She was a college student when the experiments took place and never graduated. Can someone with a little more knowledge on the character shed some light here, please? --Carnyfoke 00:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Dr Woodrue/Ivy conflict
In a story arc of Shadow of the Bat called Leaves of Grass, Dr Wooddrue is revealed to have been decapitated by Swamp Thing's daughter, and has since become a plant/human hybrid, calling himself Floronic Man. In the story arc, he tries to create a hybrid of Ivy's DNA fused with his, and she was aware of his plans to dominate the world with marijuana.

But, much later on in the series Batman: Gotham Knights, in the story arc called Human Nature in which the children from the park begin killing themselves, Ivy discovers that Woodrue is somehow involved. When she finally meets him, she acts as if she hasn't seen him since her transformation, and he is human (Not the human/plant hybrid), but is instead an old man who faked his own death to avoid "The Division".

Am I missing something between Leaves of Grass and Human Nature that would explain his sudden reversion back to "Jason Woodrue"?


 * Did a little looking, and no. Lieberman just couldn't be bothered to do research.D1Puck1T 00:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Most people tossed this up to extremely lazy editing. A.J. Lieberman wrote the latter story and has been known to be sloppy with continuity.--71.119.29.143 22:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)Carnyfoke

Labels
Explain to me how she is either a serial killer or a sociopath. She has never been shown to kill because she enjoys it or feels compelled to do it, and she would not be friends with or have concern for Harley Quinn if she were a sociopath, as sociopaths are incapable of having empathy for anyone. A character with mental illness? Fine. A murderer? Yes. But let's not go overboard with labels. --Treybien 03:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Honestly, if she had any labels, they would be the following: eco-terrorist, murderer, and rapist.


 * No, that's the point of the modern writing of the character. Unlike many of batman's villians, Ivy's often written to be a zealot to her cause, but NOT a sadist villian like Freeze, Zsasz, and so on. She's a powerful person whose priorities and motivations conflict with that of human progress. She's more like Ra's Al Ghul than the Joker. Try NOT to label her with the terms above in the article without sufficient backup. She's 'mercenary' in her methodologies, and she kills to get what she wants, but her perspective is different. address it properly in the article.ThuranX 04:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What I say does not contradict her being portrayed as an anti-heroine or zealot, or whatever you want to call her. But she murders.  Back in during Year One, she murdered her henchmen.  I really doubt that murdering her henchmen with a machine gun furthers her quest for botanical supremacy.  And have you ever read the No Man's Land one-shot where she killed two men just from accidentally running into the park?  Or when she killed a Gotham mob boss in Dark Victory for money?  In Arkham Asylum: Living Hell, she jokes around about a man she killed by saying, "He was good in bed.  The flower bed.  As mulch."
 * And in the Long Halloween, it is implied that she slept with Bruce Wayne while he was under her control. It was obviously not consensual, so by the definition, she raped him.  She mind controlled Catwoman in Hush (And if you read interviews with Jim Lee, Ivy and Catwoman were originally supposed to kiss at the end of #608, but Jim Lee said no).
 * And yes, her perspective is different. But that does not excuse her for her actions if she is still half human.  She's partly insane, as evidenced by the Legends of the Dark Knight story Hot House and briefly in Batman & Poison Ivy: Cast Shadows.
 * Poison Ivy is my second favorite comic book character of all time. I think that she is amazing and a compelling character with a rich personality, but I do not lie to myself to make her something that she isn't.  She has murdered.  She has raped.  And of course, she is slightly insane.  But she is not like Joker.  She is not like Two-Face.  And she is no sociopath.  She loved the park orphans like her own children, and she loves Harley Quinn and looks out for her.  She even took a bullet for Harley once in the Harley Quinn series.  Like Batman, she has an impossible mission with noble intentions.  She's passionate, driven, etc.  But she goes about everything the wrong way.
 * - Canker Blossom


 * Get an account. and start SIGNING YOUR COMMENTS. or use your IP. BUT SIGN.ThuranX 06:19, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In one of the last Batmans she was shown picking up people at bars bringing them home to ahve them eatten by her plants, thus creating Harvest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Floronic (talk • contribs) 20:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Move to Poison Ivy (comics)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The article titled "Poison ivy" should be about the plant, not a fictional character named after the plant. Doczilla 17:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. This listing should redirect to the Poison ivy (disambiguation) page. The villain should be at Poison Ivy (comics) (which presently redirects to here) to distinguish her from all the other Poison Ivys with capital I. Doczilla 07:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Strong support The reader looking for the plant are not going to care about capitalization of "ivy" or not. Many people are either STRAIGHT CAPS typers of all lower case typers. In the search box, Poison Ivy is poison ivy is Poison ivy is poison Ivy. The plant is the overwhelming primary topic and what the vast majority of people are going to be looking for regardless of what they kind of capitalization they use in a search box. 205.157.110.11 23:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support But I would prefer a move to Poison Ivy (character) . Have Poison Ivy redirect to Poison ivy (disambiguation). Joeldl 07:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support to (Comics), matchign almost all other disambig'd comic characters. ThuranX 16:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * All right. I suppose they would all have to be moved. Never mind. Joeldl 18:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support and make Poison Ivy a redirect to Poison ivy.-- Hús  ö  nd  02:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * This is incorrect - the plant is called Poison ivy, the "i" is not capitalized, and it already has an article at the correct name. There are many instances of articles being seperated by capitalization without the need for disambiguation. Masaruemoto 18:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Which also does not address the fact that almost every entry in Poison ivy (disambiguation) is for articles that use 'Ivy' and not 'ivy'. So it would appear that the proposed move is logical and that Poison ivy (disambiguation) probably should be moved back here where is started out.  Vegaswikian 05:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 08:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Sexuality
Until such time as her proclivities beyond her solidly established heterosexuality, and her bisexual/homosexual tendencies (as per harley quinn info) are fully documented, they should not be included. ThuranX 02:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * "Her relationship with Harley Quinn has always been used as a point of reference to support lesbianism, mainly due to the pinups Bruce Timm drew of the two characters hugging"


 * Originally the character was set up as a temptress for the batman. even her powers to attract women are only relatively recent. also, pin up and cover art isn't really evidence to support this. In the cartoon, the character was used as a friend/older sister character to harly quinn, that tells her friend she's in a bad abusive relationship. Fans often tie characters together, regardless of portrayal. In other words, mainly due to fan's imaginings, the character will probably go down this route. But I agree that it isn't concrete now, and doesn't truely match the character history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.152.214 (talk • contribs)


 * There certainly is some interest in this character's sexuality which I think should be documented if anything worthwhile has been written on the subject. However, the current subheading on her sexuality is just a list of ambiguous events that can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. (For example, calling a man a "stud muffin" doesn't say much of anything about someone's sexual behavior/preference.) I don't think this current list should be included. At the very least, it should be moved to a less prominent place in the article. See the section on homosexual interpretations of batman for an acceptable example of how this topic should be handled. 151.201.9.217 04:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The main problem that I see with the Sexuality section is that most of the examples draw an inference from the original source. As stated in WP:A, original sources must be used with care. Although bisexuality may indeed be implied by some of these examples, it comes too close to being original research to draw that conclusion. What would be useful is to find secondary sources where the creators discuss her sexuality or other scholarly/critical resources which have weighed in on the subject. It should not be based on a Wikipedian's personal interpretation.

That said, I just reverted an anonymous editor's blanket change of most of the bisexual references. It was clumsily performed — the sexuality section was left in, but its opening sentence was changed so that it no longer matched the following information. Also, no attempt was made to discuss this before or after the change. --GentlemanGhost 00:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Categories
There seems to be some confusion about Poison Ivy being Fictional Nudist and a Fictional Rapist that I find interesting here.

The article seems to clearly state that she is an occasional nudist, under [Physical appearance]. "Not until No Man's Land did the character undergo a significant physical change, ridding herself of the nylon stockings and high heels. During this time, she is depicted as freely walking around naked. [8]"

Is this correct? If so, my vote would go to Poison Ivy becoming an occasional nudist starting with those late 1990s appearances into the present, otherwise her open nudity in certain comics such as the article fact-cited comic Gotham Central #32 (August 2005) wouldn't make sense, as I have that comic, and she is clearly naked in it as the article attests. The Comics Code limits such rare nude appearances, which only helps to generate the confusion. Such as Poison Ivy appearing nude on the cover of Detective Comics #823 as a sales gimmick, as she did not appear nude in that particular story, creating even more confusion. Thoughts?

I can't speculate whether not she is a rapist, so I would be neutral on this one. However, the article seems to imply she has raped both Superman and Catwoman in the 2003 "Batman: Hush" storyline. It's all still very unclear, though. Perhaps date rape is a more precise description of this villain's sex crimes. What are your thoughts on Poison Ivy's possible sexual violations/attempts against other characters? Is she a serial rapist?

Wisdom4 08:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you have a valid argument for the "fictional nudist" category. I, too, noticed the above-referenced part of the Physical Appearance section (after I had reverted these categories). It's a relatively recent change, but that doesn't invalidate inclusion in this category.


 * I'm still not sold on the "fictional rapist" category, though. I don't equate mind control/manipulation with sexual assault. --GentlemanGhost 19:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input. If you agree that Poison Ivy is, in fact, a nudist on rare occasions, then you should be the user to properly restore this missing category, to promote good faith, and to prevent further reversions of the category from the article.


 * As for Poison Ivy's possiblity of being a serial rapist, she seems to fit similarly with the female Tarantula, currently considered the one-time rapist of Nightwing, who is himself is not presently categorized as a Fictional rape victim, generating some confusion and possible edit conflict. Please investigate each of these matters closely. I think all the Fictional rape categories need more attention and work, especially in the comics characters who all share the same experiences in those fictional events in regards to Poison Ivy, Batman, Superman, Catwoman, Nightwing, Tarantula and others involved in ambiguous fictional mind control/manipulation vs. fictional sexual assault situations, resulting in factual confusion, preventing the formation of logical, inclusive, appliable conclusions. However, I would not wish to see the Fiction rape categories become entirely deleted from the site by administrator concensus due to this confusion, either...
 * --Wisdom4 08:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll go ahead an add the "fictional nudists" category back in. I can't guarantee that someone else won't revert it. At least it's been discussed here, though.


 * Also, I'm inclined to agree that the "fictional rape" categories need more work. Perhaps a secondary source will be needed in order to interpret Poison Ivy's actions in that storyline. --GentlemanGhost 09:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Paring down.
I took out a few sections which are all various sorts of fancruft. Her sexuality isn't substantiated by the citations, they just list instances for fan theories, not actual examination by reliable sources. All the things she COULD make, or grew for one storyline, should be covered by her 'botanical skills' and perhaps her 'May Queen' identity. The Platlife section falls under the sexuality mess above. I took the seriosuly important parts of the 'appearance' section, and moved them to publication history, where most articles discuss cahracter development by creators. The rest was little more than a stroll through her boudoir closet and makeup table. ThuranX (talk) 02:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Trivia
Why was poison ivy's immunity to Joker Venom removed? It's useful information.

What is the "May Queen"? This is unclear. I gather it involves Swamp Thing and I was also wondering why there isn't more information about her encounters with this character and/or the larger concept of "the Green" in the DC universe. Don't Swamp Thing and Ivy share any appearances? 122.106.239.246 (talk) 10:28, 27 April 2008 (UTC)