Talk:Poké Ball/Archive 1

Pokeballs are like the pokemon
Should someone add in how pokeballs often take the characteristics of the pokemon inside? For example, in the episode where Ash caught a Muk, he said the pokeball stunk. Also, when Ash's charmander used Ember/Flamethrower on a Bike Rider's Golem, the Golem became hot, as did its Pokeball when it was retrieved. And as for the heat of a Poké Ball, well, I don't think heat is mass right? Heat is a form of energy, energy that a Pokémon contains and is not converted, thus warms up the Poké Ball. 82.217.240.47
 * The only logical explanation of the functioning of a Poké Ball, is that it converts the mass of a Pokémon into some sort of special form of energy. That a Poké Ball can smell like the Pokémon inside it, may mean that it does not always fully succeeds in that task. As if some of the special 'Pokemon energy' in the ball leaks away and gets converted back into mass again (in this case: the smelly gasses of Muk).
 * Why always a kinda scientific answer to such questions? I mean, it was just a funny element that the Balls smelled and were hot, I don't think that the authors of these episodes thought about that fact longer than 3 seconds and never had in mind that it has to fit to a logic and comprehensibly explanation --84.129.194.1 17:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

~Also note how any other time Ash has Muk's Poké Ball, it never seems to smell MelicansMatkin

Hyper Ball?
According to the article, both the Ultra Ball and the Fast Ball are called "Hyper Ball" in Japan. I'm sure one of those is wrong, probably the Fast Ball. Can anyone clarify this? - Luigi 2 | Talk 03:18, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

~ The Ultra Ball is called a Hyper Ball in Japan MelicansMatkin

US$0.54?
Where does this currency conversion of zenny to USD come from? Zero1328 10:06, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Zenny is in dragonball. it's called poké unless it's different in the japenese version... if so, sorry! 24.116.120.82 17:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

How to correct?
Large parts of the article are false. Nest, Luxury, Repeat, and Timer Balls can be found in FR/LG. Nest is findable on the Route 12 guy (show him a bigger Magikarp). Luxury is obtainable from Lady Sophie at Resort Gorgeous. Repeat and Timer Balls can be found on the Island Two shop. The question is, where to put this info? 68.237.168.189 05:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I changed it around a bit. How does this look? I left the bit about Lady Sophie and the bigger Magikarp out because they seemed too GameFAQ-ish to me. Sinistro 09:02, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Sinistro is correct, listing every possible way to get each ball is outside the scope of an encyclopedia article. We're not trying to help people achieve certain goals in the game, we're giving them information about the concept of poke balls in general.  The reason we discuss each of them is to give the reader an understanding of the kind of variety out there and how that variety has changed throughout time, as well as note any special notoriety a certain kind might have (Ash used a Heavy Ball to catch Snorlax, the Dive Ball is special because it is only found in one town amongst all the games it is compatible with). Zappernapper 06:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I feel obliged to respond, seeing that I was the anonymous user who posted this topic (back when I was more embarassed). The intention wasn't to include every detail, it was to correct erros - saying that they can't be obtained anywhere else when they can is misleading and just plain wrong. I obviously wasn't sure how to go about doing this, and removing it outright was the thing to do. Hbdragon88 02:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, i know im changing the subject a little, but didn't they change the lure ball to a net ball and dive ball? Because the lure ball is good at catching water types, but net balls can catch water and bug types, and dive balls also work on water types, only in the oceans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.131.104 (talk) 17:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Including Multiple Pokéball Images.
Well, I noticed that the image for the Safari ball is incorrect. Because the design for the ball has since changed because of the advancment of the series and games. Therefor, I propse the addition to the game sprites from recent pokémon games to be added along with the corresponding pokéballs.

Also, I have some problems about some of the info. Pester Balls are not in any way pokéballs, so I don't see why this has to be included in the article. There is also the fact of the two aincent pokéballs that were featured in the early pokemon episodes. It was the items that held, the giant Jiggly Puff(The Bell), The Alakazam(Dimaond/cylindar shape box with a spoon), and Gengar(with that ghostly symbol)... If this is ok, I'll be glad to add this section in along with pictures of each of them.

I can provide the sprites. I have stocks of them in the back. -TrackerTV 18:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey.. don't forget the Old fashioned Pokeball Sammy used in Pokemon forever.. the one his Charmeleon was in.

Good point, and sammy was professer whats his name, and if the professer made the new Pokeballs, who made sammy's?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.223.131.104 (talk) 17:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Super Smash Bros. Melee
We can also add in the fact that there was a typo in the Nintendo Power game guide to SSB. It said that Ditto would appear, transform into the summoning player, and assist him/her. I've had the darn game since it was released, and I haven't seen Ditto once. DL 20:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ditto appears as a Pokémon in Super Smash Bros. Melee, though. dogman15 10:28pm PST, September 9th, 2006

Another thought-The Goomba does not appear from Poké Balls, but from crates or capsules. At least, I'm sure they do. DL 20:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Ditto was originally going to appear, but it was scrapped. You can still use him if you use debug mode, though. RememberMe? 21:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That is more relevant to Ditto's page, not this one. -Zappernapper 18:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Celebi on the American Silver/Gold versions
I heard that after you defeat the elite four you can catch a Celibi...and what I heard seemed pretty legitement. To get Celibi, trade an Ivysaur(Must be an Ivysaur) from Red/Blue version that knows cut, then put a Lugia that knows fly in the first slot of your party, then fly to Mahogany Town and talk to the Karate King and get Tyrogue, then evolve it into a Hitmontop, then breed it, and hatch Tyrogue from the egg(Remember keep Lugia first in your party at all times), Fly to Ilex forest and have the Ivysaur use cut on the shrine, and Celibi floats out...When it appears it is on Lv 10. I don't know if there is any truth to this...but like I said, it seems pretty legit.


 * this isn't the kind of thing open for discussion. at least not on the pokeball page.  if you have references you should probably post this on the Celebi discussion page and see if anyone can substantiate it, of course the best way is to just try it yourself.  99 times out of 100 these tricks are crap, if it could really be done (especially on the 1st generation) it would have already been well documented in walkthroughs and FAQs as well as on in depth fansites like serebii.net, but since it hasn't b/c i'm always looking out for new info i doubt your trick is legit, but knock urself out and let me know, i've also been told that if you raise a Ditto to lvl 100 you can use it to breed with No Eggs pokemon.

poke ball lists
looking over the tables i feel like some info is missing and other things need to be left out. Provided we have a picture for the pokeball is it neccessary to talk about how it's colored? i also think it would be best to use the in-game descriptions and then have the next cell describe it's effects in more detail (i.e. x ball is n times greater than the poke ball when used in such a way). so for all the tables have Name, Desc., Effect, Loc., Picture (if none available then a brief description). -Zappernapper 06:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * sorry, forgot to add sig when i posted that.... neways, anyone wanna comment on this? i would be removing a lot of information that people have worked on but i think it's for the best fo the article... also perhaps removing the "normal" poke ball locations... seeing as there isn't anything notable about their locations (adding that they can be found to throughout the game in poke marts to the intro should be sufficient).  someone pls give some feedback, i don't like doing massive deletes unless others feel it's for the better as well. -Zappernapper 06:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Why are pokemon being tortured by pokeballs.

What do you think?
this is mainly in regards to the pokeball lists... i spent about 4 hours off and on working on them, still didn't get to the "Other Balls" but that's gonna require a lot more research than i'm planning on getting into. any thoughts or suggestions? -Zappernapper 00:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

What happened to all the tables and pics?
in the interest of presenting information in prose rather than tabular data, much of the information previously found in the tables has been incorporated into paragraphs as per a discussion that resulted between myself Zappernapper and A Man In Bl♟ck. If you have any comments/questions about this change in general, pls append them to the bottom of this discussion rather than leaving msgs on our talk pages. Of course if you really want to talk to us directly, feel free XD

discussion moved from A Man In Bl♟ck 's talk page:

you know it's just my luck... every time someone does something to an article that I'd like to discuss with them, they put up a wikibreak sign.... basically i question your removal of the images at poke ball. the latter part of the article is used to discuss the variety of Poke Balls out there, and offer information on specifically notable balls (e.g. Master Ball). The images are used for the purpose of eliminating redundant prose, "This ball is green on top and white on bottom," and illustrating the evolution of poke balls themselves throughout the series. Perhaps with a more detailed intro parapgraph under "Varieties of Poké Balls" you would find the images more appropriate? My final point is that Wikipedia claims no policy on the use of montages and this article is drastically reduced in quality by the removal of these images. Your statement of "variations on a theme" sounds familiar but i couldn't find it on the policy pages about photos, perhaps you could help me out. I'll give you a few days to respond with ur POV before I change it back, but because you removed the images instead of just commenting them out, if there are a lot of edits made I may put the images back sooner. -Zappernapper 19:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I'm around. The Wikibreak is over.
 * That article needs major cleanup. There's no need to be describing every single Pokéball in explicit detail in that article; we don't need a field guide to identifying Pokéballs, but instead some encyclopedic summary prose explaining that there are many types with a few representative examples.
 * This is also a copyright/fair-use issue. We need not to have dozens of fair-use images when one and some prose suffices. WP:FUC is clear on this, and WP:FUC, unlike many other rules, isn't flexible. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

would you concede that a full paragraph for "Master Ball" is necessary? It seems to be one of the most notable. That, along with the notes section from "GS Ball" seem to me to be the only information worth keeping. Are you also then proposing that instead of a table, just describing in prose the differences in poke balls brought about by each generation is adequate? I understand your point about a "field guide", but remembering that Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia - there's no reason why one can't discuss a topic in an in-depth manner. For example take a look at Seagulls. The gallery at the bottom does indeed represent a "field guide" to seagulls. While more specific information about each gull is located on its own page, types of Poke Balls do not merit their own articles, so a table is introduced to represent a list. Would you be satisfied with a "See also: List of Poke Balls" ? and tansporting the tables there? I never thought it neccessary because it's not quite expansive enough that i feel it slows load times down. Assuming a table of poke balls is of encyclopedic value (I am, but you may still not) the second question is of fair-use. You directed me to WP:FUC and after reading through the list of requirements I found that the images seem to meet all the requirements. I say seem, because there are a couple reuqirements that may be subjective, and another I don't completely understand. Your main disagreement with me seems to be # 3. "The amount of copyrighted work used should be as little as possible... Do not use multiple images... if one will serve the purpose adequately." Again I cite that "field guides" serve an encyclopedic value for visual comparison and the images maintain their relevancy because the article discusses each of them. For example, one could write that, "typically different pokeballs feature different colors on the top and remain white on the bottom." Insert a pic of the standard poke ball, a hyper ball, and a safari ball. "However occasionally the entire ball can become differently colored." Insert a luxury ball pic. Seems adequate enough for standard balls, but then we have to go on about how poke balls in the anime and movies can vary widely (Crystal Ball, "Chansey Ball"). And write prose and still use many of the pictures. Then when a speficic ball gains some notoriety another paragraph needs to be worked in there. But what if someone writes the paragraph, just tagging it on the end? Is this alright because it's the newest data? Or should it stay grouped with other poke balls from its generation? It just seems like the tables are the best way to maintain the data and present it in an easy to read format. In regard to WP:FUC number 5 seems met, and 8 seems to be another point of disagreement we may still have. Also, number 6 is the one I don't quite get, perhaps (if unmet) you could further explain it. Finally, asking the test question, "Can this image be replaced by a different one, while still having the same effect?" I find myself saying no, when talking about how the giant stone poke balls were used to capture the giant claydol, if i wanted to illustrate just how big these balls were (giant to someone could be 7 ft high), there is no other adequate image to use. BTW, I'm fairly certain the Johto Balls (like this one ) were created free content, but they may have been cut out of the TCG cards (i don't know enough about the TCG to make this assertion). Additionally, the screenshots are technically taken from different episodes and movies so I believe that having one image from each is not considered "too many" - please direct me to a discussion if i'm wrong. Thanx 4 taking the time 2 read all this, and happy editing -Zappernapper 05:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We just don't need a list of every single Pokéball. It's overly specific info of interest only to hardcore fans. We should certainly describe them in general terms, but all of these are variations of a single design so we only need one design. The Master Ball doesn't need a full paragraph (unless it's way more important in the manga or something); it's just another Pokéball in the games only you only get one per game and it always works.
 * The giant stone Pokéballs are exactly what we shouldn't be describing in detail. They appear in exactly one episode of the anime and never appear again. They're nothing but trivia.
 * As for free content, a dozen images of Pokéballs, from any source, is not going to be acceptable, no. It's not really possible to make a free alternative, either. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

so you don't feel the mentioning of the stone poke balls in the context of variance or orgins of poke balls is signficant? in fact the idea that ancient pokemon were of gigantic size is expressed in two episodes. in an article about the poke ball i don't get how its orgins (however little mentioned they are) aren't important. i concede though the mentioning of the "chansey ball" is prolly the most trivial entry in "Other Poke Balls." I realize you are coming from the perspective that you'd like to keep cruft out as much as possible and fiction comes under more attacks than other categories (you like merging, check out a majority of animal species), but for comparative purposes the mentioning of different pokeballs seems justfied. Were the number ever to get unmanageable i would agree with you, but as of yet there are relatively so few that it's very feasible to discuss each one, and explain it's differences in a table. Again, I cite that Wikipedia is not paper. Also, while considered a poor argument, i'll reverse the Pokémon defense to ask if Seagulls can post a dozen images birds that are prolly of no interest excpet to a few avid bird-watchers or locals, then why not the same for Poke Balls? Many pages, and even real encyclopedias, offer images of differences within a group. The only time a full list can't be propagated is when the amount is too cumbersome (I would not agree that a page on the AKC should have pictures of every recognized breed, and since each breed, say under terriers has its own page - images of all the different terriers is not appropriate either). Perhaps we have a difference of opinion as to how much encyclopedic value an image can add to an article. Personally I find images much more helpful than someone's personal view of them. An article on Van Gogh would lose much encyclopedic value if his paintings were removed - I don't care how well they are described in prose. To me, "information important only to hardcore fans" includes detailing every time Beedrill made an appearance in the anime, likewise how many people really care how many eggs the Dolphin Gull lays? They aren't apparently notable for being either endangered or having an unusual number of eggs. I understand the guidlines proposed in WP:FICT are strict, but as a notable aspect of the game variations in poke balls are important to discuss in detail - along with the history and symbolic significance gleaned from the anime and movies. (also the Master Ball entry discusses it's significance outside of the world scope, along with its appearance in the anime) -Zappernapper 06:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You know, it'd be nice to know the Pokéball's origins. Making up an origin based on conjecture from two episodes isn't going to cut it, though.
 * Also, those images in the seagull and terrier articles are free images. These are not free images. The rules are much stricter for fair-use images.
 * The problem with "gleaning" info from the anime and movies is that much of it is listing one-off objects or conjecturing based on things implied or mentioned in passing.
 * The Master Ball section is exactly the sort of cruft that article just doesn't need. Suggestions on what Pokémon to use it on? A mention of a one-off appearance in the anime (with no reference to what episode, of course)? Discussing using a glitch to duplicate it?
 * It's not important to discuss every variation of the Pokéball in detail. Instead, it's important to write an encyclopedic overview in summary style, aimed at a lay audience and drawing from reliable sources. Right now, this is a highly detailed description of every variation of Pokéball, aimed at a fan/enthusiast audience and drawing from the anime/manga/games. That's not what Wikipedia is for. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for a late reply, i've been ill, and don't have much time even now. I can cite the master ball episode as easily as anyone who knows about serebii, but i don't think that's the main issue. the origin isn;t made up, and there shouldn't be conjecture. This is why just listing the appearance of the balls and relating the info said in the anime is what's been done. I was saying that this info is useful for people who want to know it. And again, if the mention and casual overview of each ball is included in the article, WP:FU allows the use of those images, as detailed in my first reply to you. I wasn't using seagulls as an excuse for the images but as defense against your "field guide" argument. Poke ball is meant to be a centralized discussion of all things poke ball, little detail is supposed to go in each "Notes section" especially if it's one time info (the crystal ball the girl uses in Secret of the Unown) those "one-off" references are most pointedly aimed at the "Other Balls" section? that section does need cleanup, and i'm not sure if images should be included there (except maybe having a sub section of it titled Early Poke balls for critical analysis - the fact that while early pokemon were consistently huge - the anime has shown two methods for containg them). The master ball entry as cruft is an opinion - i could state that listing every weakness and strength for the fire type on Quilava's page is "not needed" (and i have - in vain). The fact that it is often used on legendary or rare pokemon is an established fact that would not meet with any serious disagreement. the two pokemon mentioned are not recommendations, but examples of rare legendary pokemon (reread the paragraph) - their names are easy enough to remove though. The glitch (again not saying to do it, or even how, barring an argument that this is FAQs-ish) caused a phenonmenon (that's a little over-the-top) in the real-world - people exploiting it specifically for that purpose, this is not disputed and accepted as fact. I was under the impression that a fictional subject's effects in the real world were worth mentioning in an article. You have constantly been referring to the list as "important only to hardcore fans/enthusiasts" except for the "Other balls" section i can't agree that someone who has just bought the game would not find this information appealing. Or even a layperson who decided to look up the article. Again - the argument of cruft is fallacious, especially since there is no policy or guideline concerning it. Only things that fall under WP:NOT are excluded, and I'm trying to eliminate them, maybe i haven't been doing a good job. Sentences that tell the locations of all the hidden Poke Balls in RBY are definitly FAQs-ish and How-to, but those things are all aggressivly removed. You'll have to provide a better arguement than "cruft" and specifically mention a policy or guideline that states why listing what a small group of items in a video game do is not allowed in Wikipedia especially if the use is to demonstrate the evolution of those items in the game over time. -Zappernapper 17:28, 18 September 2006 (UTC) PS, I won't be home until much later today, so i'll prolly respond tomorrow.


 * There's a great difference between telling people how to best play a game and describing real-world impact.


 * As for Wikilawtering about WP:NOT, what Wikipedia is is an encyclopedia, and all of the rules exist only to promote that idea. Right now that page is a highly specialized fanpage, not an encyclopedia article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"There's a great difference between telling people how to best play a game and describing real-world impact." - we are in complete agreement here. I actively remove prose written in this article that says things like, "You only get one Master Ball in the game, so when playing RBY you should save it for the battle with Mewtwo." Apparently you don't see anything better with: "It is the games' rarest Poké Ball. In the original games... there was only one to be found. Since ..., there have been ways to get additional Master Balls, but the player still only finds or is awarded a single ball.... Master Balls are so rare and powerful that they are normally used to capture the rarest of Pokémon, like Mewtwo or Lugia." I'm at a loss due to confusion. That is what people have done. It is not something even remotely likely to be disputed, but if you'd like i could point to the hundreds of FAQs out there telling people to do that and the logical sense that it makes as proof. If this is not what you're talking about then pls better explain y you feel I'm happy with this article "telling people how to best play a game" and i don't understand what "describing real-world impact" is.

In response to your second statement - WTF is wikilawtering? My use of citing Wiki guidlines and policies in my defense? I feel the artice (a large majority anyways) as is does serve as an encyclopedia article. You feel it doesn't. I'm not trying to flash them in your face going, "SEE! SEE! lemme do what i want!" I'm offering them up for a re-reading so you can try to understand where i'm coming from. I've been giving lengthy explanations about my thoughts on the matter and you seem to write them off with a few sentences, largely ignoring any points i've made. you don't give any examples - just your opinions. I've gone through and added the names/numbers to episode references like you mentioned were lacking (ironicaly i missed the Whiscash one still), but i don't think that's your main concern. The rewrite tag has been up there for a long time, and i haven't removed it because i agree it is still in need of work; many prose sections could be completely rewritten - a few of them have, references should be added, and the tables are still "under contsruction". No one seems to interested in writing about it on the talk page, even whoever put that tag up, i haven't bothered tracking down who it was to ask them their thoughts, maybe i will. Please give examples of highly specialized fandom, and if it's the list of pokeballs - re-read my previous arguments and respond to those. I think it may be best to move this onto the talk page as anyone else editing it could take advantage of it. -Zappernapper 15:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Basically, I don't see any value in a "field guide" to Pokéballs, especially given the utter lack of a basic encyclopedic overview. It's of interest to fans only, many entries can only be game-guide-only info, and such a list cannot be sourced save to direct observation of the games/anime/manga. I removed the images because they needed to be dealt with immediately, but the whole list desperately needs to be removed and replaced with a prose summarizing with examples, instead of listing every single variation. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Images
As for dealing with fair-use images, if it's just a picture of a Pokéball with slightly different colors, it's out. The anime image I left because it's actually showing what's explained in the text. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The Master Ball, is being discussed in the text, as are the Heavy Ball, Fast Ball, and Lure Ball. The Luxury Ball and Premiere Ball have an entire paragraph devoted to their unique coloring. If images used to illustrate these differences do not qualify as fair-use then I'm at a loss. Additionally, while many of the fair-use templates cite the reason of a "small number" being their reason, (yes i'm wikilawtering....) according to WP:Fair use that has no bearing. it would seem that your only defense could be: "the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole". that doesn't even apply. The article is discussing in detail the images depicted. Until you have a reason rather than opinion, or can show me something that's even a guidline (which WP:FU happens to be anyways) that says variations on a theme cannot be used under fair-use, i'd appreciate you not removing (and thus orphaning) these images. we've already been over this, and you still have failed to provide counterpoints to my above arguments specifically pulling text from WP:FU. In short, asking the question - "could this image be replaced with another to the same effect?" the answer is no. A picture of a Dive Ball next to the Master Ball paragraph would not work, likewise having a picture of a Great Ball where the Luxury Ball is would not propery illustrate the unique differences discussed in the article. -Zappernapper 22:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a very slightly different Pokéball. We don't need two images of them. The anime image is borderline but since it's showing a process as well as just the Pokéball itself, it can slide. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * you're still avoiding why a slight variation isn't considered fair-use (and your use of slight is open to debate). Let's say i have an article talking about changing political borders over a period of time (much like changing poke balls over a period of time) assuming there are no free alternatives available i have two fair-use pictures showing the slight change.  They are practically identical, however the subject of them being different is what's being discussed.  i hear your points, your lack of exposition is frustrating me.  I'm adding these pictures in good faith because i honestly feel that to a layperson they would help in comprehension. -Zappernapper 23:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be a pair of images describing an important difference. This is a cosmetic difference. We don't need an image covering every single minor variation, when one image shows the much-more-recognizable template on which they are all based. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * but the article is discussing the cosmetic difference -Zappernapper 23:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The cosmetic difference isn't so important to the topic that we need compromise the "free" in "Wikipedia: the free encyclopedia" to show it. If you'd like to make a case that it is important, I'd be happy to see a reliable source that made non-trivial mention of the cosmetic difference between the appearances of different sorts of Pokéballs. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * i've brought this to attention at WT:FU. I'd appreciate you posting anything there if you feel i may have paraphrased you incorrectly.  and what would you consider non-trivial mention?  triviality is highly debatable itself, the pokeflute could be considered a trivial item, only having context within the game itself, you haven't removed that for fair-use infringment. and what about the hundreds of fair-use images on wikipedia that are used in episode list tables? these images usually add nothing but pure decoration to their articles using the formula of how easily they could be replaced by another image.  pls note my mention of usually b/c there are still screenshots chosen because they portray the "cultural impact" pivotal scene. -Zappernapper 00:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I probably should. The fact that we have other borderline or inappropriate images doesn't obviate the need to remove borderline or inappropriate images. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * i think that this needs further input, especially since regarding a work of fiction, it'd be nice of you to wait on removals unless you can point to some discussions on wikipedia in the past that would side with ur determinations -Zappernapper 02:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, bear in mind that this is a borderline copyvio issue, and fair-use issues are one of the very few things that supercede consensus. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry Zapper, AMIB is right on this one. If there is a website that discusses the Pokeballs and have the galleries, we could link to that, but the variations being discussed in prose is a lot better than just slapping an image into the article. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Zscout is correct. – Quadell (talk) (random) 12:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Zscout, perhaps you were looking at the page with the tables? Becuase the variations are being discussed in prose. Why is a fair-use image not appropriate to illustrate this? specifically, this example.  Zscout, you use the phrase, "slapping an image into the article" as if these were purely serving as decoration, but they pass FUC's test question - there aren't other images that could replace them, serving the same purpose - contrast this with a multitude of screenshots used on episode list pages and episode articles themselves.  Oftentimes the shot used isn't one that portrays a significant scene - these fair-use images contribute much more than those.  Keep in mind, i'm all for prose too, but i don't see why we can't have a few fair-use images (4) displaying some of the varieties of pokeballs, ones that are being discussed in the text. -Zappernapper 13:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * We can't have a few fair-use images when just one is no less informative. This is a textbook example of WP:FUC #3. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:20, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * the problem here is a difference of opinion over what is "adequate." i thought the test question found at the bottom of WP:FUC's policy was an objective way of deciding adequacy rather than arguing back and forth with one's own opinions. apparently i'm wrong. -Zappernapper 14:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That question is more about #1 than #3, and was written before the crackdown on multiple images. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * then perhaps it needs to be rewritten -Zappernapper 17:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Fetishism reference
I don't think that can be used as a reference on fetishism in pokemon, due to its overall anti-Pokemon bias and the fact that it doesn't really cover in-universe fetishism of the pokeball. Veinor (ヴエノル(talk)) 19:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll actually side with you on this, because I'm having a hard time finding any other secondary sources, and the connection discussed within the source is bare at best. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 21:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

the tcg and pokemon monopoly....
it would be interesting to have info on their specific purposes in those games... even though i know them well, it would be best to cite a published source on these things... Blueaster 07:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * yes, this article as a whole needs to be referenced... it's a time-consuming process that i really should get around to soon huh? neways, i don't know nething about the tcg, but i'm sure that you could add some basic information about trainer cards (citing the rulebook) and that poke ball trainer cards are typically used to get pokemon from your deck (refer to WP:CITE and WP:REF and you'll see that for non-scholarly subjects, as long as you aren't analyzing, describing the subject matter doesn't need to be thoroughly reffed as long as it's uncontroversial). -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 11:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Master Ball
I must say that I completely disagree with your opinion that his information is too specific, citing it as game-guide. The original games only had one. In later games they changed this and other methods were introduced to obtain more. How is that a guide? It's very basic information that in no way instructs or delves into minutiae (it doesn't say how or where you get it). The other side of the coin are the other claims about it's focus as an explotiable item. They aren't reffed but after a cursory search I was able to find several hits for "Master ball glitch" but only five for "Duplication" and both gamespy and gamefaqs have cheats that recommend using in conjunction with the master ball. How might we ref this?


 * Master Ball
 * The Master Ball item itself has gained further notoriety beyond that of the other Poké Balls due to it constant focus as an exploitable item . Because it is so powerful in the gameplay, the original games only offered one Master Ball to trainers. However, in the games Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald a Master Ball can be won at the lottery. In subsequent games various side-quests and random events were occasionally introduced to allow players a chance at getting additional Master Balls. Due to this restriction, several glitches that were useful for any variety of items came to be called things like "The Master Ball Duplication Trick."

Thoughts? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 12:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

fine. if you must know what i think, i think that you're totally right, and that's why i didn't say anything further. I said that the info was too specific in gaming because I thought that the term used would be too specific and gaming-community-esque. And I looked over the rest of that paragraph too quickly, so the whole paragrah went. Blueaster 07:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * ok... just didn't want to put it back in if there was something wrong with it. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 10:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it pending better sources. You cited two user-contribution cheat/FAQ sites. That's not very good sourcing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

both sites use independent fact checking, are easily corroborated, and that specific information has remained stable over several years, it qualifies under WP:RS. plus the importance wasn't originally in question (you yourself ended up conceding to that when i first added this section several months ago) so there was no reason to remove other than sources. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Probably relevant content that needs to be heavilly edited and checked before readding...
"If the Pokéballbreaks, well... When Brock's Ninetales ball breaked, Brock said Ninetales was automatically released. When Ash Ketchum's Snorlax ball breaked, he got it repaired and still had Snorlax. Interestingly, Snorlax ball breaked on a rock, while Ninetales ball breaked while engulfed in a fire attack. Or was it Brock knocked by a fire attack, and dropping the ball? Or did Brock want to let Ninetales go?"

Which episodes were these? Blueaster 06:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

is this relevant? i'm not so sure. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC) The episode is "Just Waiting On A Friend".

Poké Ball "stickers" in D/P
Should we mention this in the Sinnoh Poké Balls section? I'm divided on it myself, since while Serebii has a few screenshots of putting these "stickers" (there's no indication in the screenshots' text to indicate that that's what they're even called) on the Poké Ball, there's none showing the special effects they're supposed to cause on release - the most notable thing about the whole function. Anyone have an opinion on this? ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 04:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * i was at first tempted to add something, but then realized it would be hard to say anything without conjecture... waiting for english release :) -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 05:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with both of you. Sticker information ought to go on the page, but it's better to wait for an English-language release for the sake of accuracy. You Can&#39;t See Me! 01:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

A bit of cleanup
First of all, I'm getting rid of the remaining table at the bottom of the page: Pester Balls and Jammer Balls aren't even Poké Balls, and the Giant Ball is hardly notable (one chapter of the manga? please). The Dark Ball seems barely more notable (not to mention there's now a Dark Ball in the games as of D&P), so that's going too. I guess it could be worked in somewhere else, but I'm not going to because I don't know where to put them - someone with more anime/movie experience can do that. The Snag Ball is the only thing on the table that's at all notable, so I'll put that in paragraph form and stick it in somewhere. I'll probably do more work on this in the next couple of days, but this list has been bugging me for way too long. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 01:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Recall Mechanism
Is it worth mentioning how the pokeballs are recalled in the various media? In the anime the actual pokeball is neccesary in order to recall the pokes', while in the games the pokeball seems to disappear and only return when the pokemon is recalled. It's probably rather trivial info, but still.


 * you're right, it is trivial. we already say how he pokeball is used to store pokemon, and the fact that the video games (which are mostly rather limited in animation anyway) don't show a whole sequence of the ball returning to the player is kind of pointless. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section
That section just seems useless with unneedable dat. dhould it be deleted? Bluebrody7 04:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering
Should there be a picture of a Poké Ball at the top of the article? I found a good picture here. Unknownlight 02:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a good idea to include non-free images in an article's lead if you can avoid it. And in this case, I can avoid it: there's a textual description of the external appearance of the device immediately below the TOC. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 14:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

First Pokéballs & One Other Thing
I'm gonna get the 'one other thing' out of the way: Pokéballs. One word. Not two. That aside, the First Pokéballs sub-article only talks about Sir Aaron's Pokéstaff, no others. What about Prof. Oak's? What about the Pokéballs of the giant Alakazam, Gengar (I think it was Gengar), and Jigglypuff? What about that freaky Ball the ancient Ninetales was in? Mack-the-random 01:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)