Talk:Police community support officer/Archive 1

Picture
Hello I've added a picture to show the uniform of a PCSO. Whilst the uniform varies across the country this officer from Kent is broadly representative of what people should see on the street.

We took the picture and have released copy right free. Any queries email pcso@bluerubicon.com

Are you sure you really took this picture? because its a Essex PCSO not Kent!--Pandaplodder 19:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Powers
Is this bit right?

"Constable can also choose to extend any part of any power, for instance an individual PCSO may be able to detain a person for up to 30 minutes, *but unable to use force to prevent their escape*."
 * No, it isn't. I'll fix it. Sapient 18:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's right, the Chief Constable can pick and choose that finely. The example used is that of Lancashire Constabulary whose PCSOs can order a person to remain with them for up to thirty minutes, but is unable to take hold of them to prevent them walking away. Will do a partial revert. Tigz 12:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This part also needs explanation and citation -

"There is also a 'reasonable code of conduct' which is a legitimate & tested defence to a (technical) common assault of which the courts have accepted and has now been written into case law". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.86.122.228 (talk) 20:16, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Reason for PCSO introduction
I've added to the first para because it's suspect: what evidence is there that people were concerned about low police visibility? I'm thinking extensive independent surveys, pressure group membership numbers, officially received petitions, recorded speeches in Parliament by MP's who cite public concern from their own constituency as a factor in supporting the Bill as it passed through. Anything? If not, this sentence can end on "Police Reform Act 2002[1]."172.142.202.55 14:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

GMP drowning incident
This seems to give a very pro-police version of the incident, some of the details are contradicted by eye-witnesses at the scene. The PCSO did not of course give evidence at the inquest. Perhaps it can give both sides and also cover some of the criticism in the press of the lack of training of PCSOs --jmb 15:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - the BBC's picture does not look like a "large flooded quarry", and most press descriptions are of a "lake" or even "pond". To describe it as a "large flooded quarry" is clearly on the optimistic side, and implicitly defends the police, and is therefore a non-neutral POV. I tried editing the article to use the police's own words ("lake"), as taken from the BBC article referenced, and someone promptly removed my changes. Make of this what you will.

Protection
and an anon IP have been making large-scale revisions of content & deletions of large amounts of sourced material from this page with no discussion either here or at WP:LE. I have temporarily protected The Wrong Version of this article pending discussion to achieve consensus. —  iride scent   (talk to me!)  16:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop and Search Powers
I have noticed that some of the powers of stop and search are not complete. The terrorism act only gives the power to stop and search if there is a Police Officer present to supervise. To search for Alcohol or Tobacco then the PCSO must get the persmission of the person, unless the person has been lawfully detained (does not require a constable present). they must also get consent if they seize anything found during the search. The PCSO can stop and search a person and seize anything unlawful without consent is if they are under the suspcion that the person is carrying something which can cause injury to the person or the PCSO, or any item which aids an escape. all of these were found under Code A of the Police And Criminal Evidence Act 1984 which i got from the Home Office, i would put this myself on the article but im inexperienced at HTML coding and it isn't from idleness. Mattrimmer86 19:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Types of PCSO
Hey guys

I added quite a large section on types of PCSO's in the Metropolitan Police. Any problems leave me a message on my talk page.

Police,Mad,Jack


 * I have removed this addition - see the warning on your talk page. Quite apart from the fact that it is blatantly an illegal cut & paste copyright violation from the Met Police website, it violates multiple Wikipedia policies, most notably Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. —  iride  scent  20:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

PPE
I have changed the equipment section to describe CS gas and batons as weapons, not protective equipment. CS gas reguires a Home Office licence to possess, and is restricted to police officers. Batons are also legally restricted. Neither can be described a protective. Dolive21 (talk) 15:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, they are so described by the police. They are only used in self-defence, hence they are classed as protective equipment. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Some good News
Ive added two good news stories about PCSO's getting them is hard and I thought it was about time the unseen good things they have done come to light —Preceding unsigned comment added by Travis1985 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * and i support that, but we can't list all stories. at the moment, we might have a few too many, so we can only list things that made the nationals. sadly, good news isn't likely to make the nationals. ninety:one 16:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Other terms the police use to describe PCSOs
Could a section of acronyms also used to describe PCSOs be created?
 * CHIMPS - Can't Help In Most Policing Situations (just to get things started) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.221.145 (talk) 20:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Far too subjective and unencyclopaedic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 19:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Young PCSO's
I'v noticed that the article contradicts the 'Police could you' website where it states:

''Am I eligible? Have you got what it takes to become a police community support officer?

We welcome applicants from all backgrounds and ethnic groups. Our applicants are not limited to any particular age group - in fact, we encourage those who are looking for a career change. Unlike the requirements for regular police officers, there is no minimum age to apply''

Hawkania (talk) 15:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

PCSO roles in the MPS
I've excised this from the bloated MPS article, I don't think it's notable in itself, but if anyone else does I suggest it be incorporated here, or in a new article.

Within the MPS, different roles of PCSOs exist:


 * Neighbourhood PCSO - Provides a uniformed presence in Safer Neighbourhood Teams, which police London's boroughs and other areas within the MPS district.
 * Safer Transport PCSO - Provides a uniformed presence on buses (policing on the railways and London Underground being provided by the British Transport Police.)
 * Traffic PCSO - Provides a uniformed presence by assisting the Traffic OCU in roads policing, along with issuing penalty notices.
 * Security PCSO - Provides a uniformed presence in well known areas in London, safeguarding against terrorism.
 * Royal Parks PCSO - Provides a uniformed presence within the Royal Parks in the MPS District.
 * Aviation Security PCSO - Provides a uniformed presence, assisting the Aviation Security OCU in policing of London airports.
 * Station PCSO - Acts as front counter liaison with members of the public.
 * Victim PCSO - Responsible for updating victims of crime about police investigations.

Wnjr (talk) 20:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought it notable, simply for the reason that the MPS has different roles of PCSO, unlike the vast majority of other forces. Police,Mad,Jack ☺ 21:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree, that could be covered by a single sentence in the PCSO article - "in the MPS there are distinct PCSO roles...", I see no reason for this to be included in the MPS article, any more than a list of vehicle models or kit suppliers would, its trivial in relation to the MPS as a body.
 * Wnjr (talk) 01:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree with you. Police,Mad,Jack ☺ 07:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm not going to argue with you. I see you reverted me on the MPS article, and we will leave it at that. I will insert the information to the PCSO article. Next time maybe it would be a good idea to talk about deleting the section before you delete it, rather than delete it and then talk about why you deleted it. Police,Mad,Jack ☺ 07:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * WP:BOLD
 * Wnjr (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Certainly. But it may be considered courteous to discuss rather than to delete straight away, Just a suggestion. Happy editing. Police,Mad,Jack ☺ 11:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Incidents?
Why are there incidents listed here? Are similar incidents listed for other Police personnel?

This seems too subjective to me, surely good & bad incidents should be covered if the section is to be left up?

Also, the reasons why they are up there should be also stated i.e. media's confusion over the fact that they are not there to replace PCs, therefore can/will not deal with the same incidents.

--leopheard (talk) 16:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Id ask that you put the section back up as it is important that these incidents are shown as they effect the development of the PCSO which is still new. If you want a more ballanced coverage in the section I will see what I can do.--T9062856 (talk) 09:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed the section. The content is here:

I have put it back up but have made changes to make it more ballanced--T9062856 (talk) 22:02, 7 November 2009 (UTC)  Incidents In August 2005, PCSO Uthayakumar Packirisamy of the Metropolitan Police intervened when a woman with mental health problems threatened bus passengers with a container of mentholated spirits and a lighter, telling them that they were going to die. Packirisamy was off duty and alone at the time but evacuated the bus, and detained the woman until police arrived. The woman was arrested and Packirisamy was later formally commended for his actions.

On 31 January 2006 45-year-old PCSO Adrian Martin of the Metropolitan Police collapsed and died of heart failure when cycling on a road exercise while undertaking a police cycle training course at Hendon. He was the first PCSO to die on duty.

On December 4 2006, PCSO Gary Etchells was stabbed in the neck whilst assisting a local housing trust to carry out an eviction in Stalybridge, Greater Manchester. He has since made a full recovery and is back to work. A 63-year-old man was charged with attempted murder in connection with this case. Etchells is believed to be the first PCSO to be seriously injured whilst on duty.

Although full details of this incident have never been released, it has been suggested that Etchells was acting "outside of his duty" as PCSOs are not expected, nor are they informed that they will be issued a response officer due to the potential conflict situations they are faced with. Forces recommend that PCSOs hold back, gather information and await an armed police response in these situations.

On 3 May 2007 two Greater Manchester Police PCSOs, had been called to a lake where 10 year old Jordon Lyon had disappeared under the water after his sister had fallen in. They did not attempt an underwater rescue because "they were not trained" to do so. Neither PCSOs nor warranted police officers receive any water rescue training; in fact there has been no requirement for police officers in England and Wales to pass a swimming/life saving test during training for many years. On 20 September the Greater Manchester Police defended their actions as it was found at the inquest that the PCSOs had initially been given the wrong location of the boy, and when they did find the correct place he had already been under water for at least seven minutes, leading the coroner to believe that he was already dead.

On July 3 2007, a Metropolitan Police PCSO was slashed whilst driving a marked police van in Victoria Street, London. A man was chased and arrested for the offence. The PCSO was later released from hospital; his injuries had been minor.

On 10 September 2007 21 year old PCSO Christopher Donald Maclure of the Greater Manchester Police was killed in a road traffic accident while on bicycle patrol. He sustained fatal head injuries in a collision with a lorry at a road junction in Hindley Green. The lorry driver who hit him had to be treated for shock. As a result of this incident Greater Manchester Police suspended PCSOs from using bicycles. This was later rescinded.

Since his death a plaque with his name has been added to the Greater Manchester Police Memorial.

On 21 February 2008, PCSO Dave Bird of Devon and Cornwall Constabulary, a former fireman, helped to rescue two children from a house fire in south Devon after they were trapped upstairs by flames. He arrived before the fire brigade and made two attempts to reach the children. Despite being unable to reach them, he directed firefighters to the girls' location in the house, resulting in their rescue. He was commended for his actions. His superior, Sergeant Dave Casley, described PCSO Bird's effort as an "heroic attempt" to rescue the children.

On the evening of 28 April 2009 PCSO David Leslie Adams, aged 59 of the Avon and Somerset Constabulary died of a suspected heart attack whilst attending a road traffic collision whilst on duty in Woolverton near Frome. PCSO Adams had previously been a Traffic Warden with his Force before becoming one of the constabularies first PCSO’s. During his service he won an award in 2007 for outstanding customer service in the Somerset East District at the Avon and Somerset Community Police Awards.

On Monday 17th August 2009, "Ten people, including two Police Community Support Officers (PCSOs), were stabbed in an "indiscriminate" series of attacks in Bristol. The PCSOs were attempting to disarm a man who was believed to have been involved in a series of attacks with a penknife at about 1650 BST on Monday. One was stabbed in the side of his back and another suffered wounds to his hands. A 54-year-old man was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and remains in custody. The officers, one aged in his 20s and a colleague in his 30s, were called the scene on Russeltown Avenue in the Easton area of the city." (ref.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/8207222.stm)

On the same day at around 2pm in another similar but unrelated incident in Yeovil PCSO Adam Goff was promoting the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme at an event held by the Westfield Community Association in Stiby Road when a fight broke out across the street. The PCSO by himself went over the six men who were fighting each other. The men were armed one with a samurai sword. PCSO Goff managed to disarm the man with the sword and control the situation till back up arrived. Three of the men were arrested and subsequently bailed. The men suffered only minor injuries as a result of the incident. PCSO Goff was later praised by members of the Westfield Community Association.

Fences &amp;  Windows  21:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The entire section is in contravention of WP:NOTNEWS. Please do not re-add it. ninety:one  00:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, it is indiscriminate. If there were serious incidents that affected the role or perception of PCSOs, they can be worked into the article, not given their own news section. On a more minor point, do make an effort to copyedit and use correct referencing templates. Fences  &amp;  Windows  01:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Training section
As you may know PCSO training varies a lot so I was thinking of putting a section on it after a bit of research detailing how much training each force gives. I would also put a general description on the content of such training.

I was wondering if such a section would be a good idea?

Your thoughts please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by T9062856 (talk • contribs) 19:58, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

GRAVE ERRORS
http://www.tendringneighbourhoodwatch.org/pcso.html HINT HINT Some enterprising pcso's have added nonsense to this section. Check {http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/en/02en30-e.htm} it does not verify the relevent powers {Citation 17}  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.80.206.159 (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This article above was taken from Wikipedia! leopheard (talk) 20:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Criticisms and Controversies
I feel there should be a neutral criticisms and controversies section in this article. Obviously it should be properly reference and neutral but I feel this article definitely needs one. PCSOs divide the public, they are often dubbed as 'pretend police', 'plastic police' and allsorts of other labels, rightly so in my opinion. They are often viewed by the media as very controversial and there have been significant incidents in the past that has brought their purpose into great question such as that when a young boy drowned in Wigan in 2007 and two PCSOs stood by and did nothing about it. I feel the article needs such a suggestion, please add your comments on this suggestion, thank you. Christian1985 (talk) 17:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps neither good or bad news stories would be more impartial? Just think of the news, when years ago they actually gave facts and analysis, but allowed you to make your opinion yourself. Today, they don't know how to interpret things, so they just ask the man on the street what he thinks (as if he knows!) and say things like "controversial" or "growing concern", of which makes more actual concern because they've said it, and after all, who cares what people think of stories/facts, let's just tell them! Rant over! But let's not sink into the bad habits of the press today leopheard (talk) 20:20, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I see what you are saying, but PCSOs are deeply unpopular in many quarters, as I have made quite clear I am no lover of them. If I could find reliable non-partisan sources detailing their unpopularity and ineffectiveness would this be acceptable? I find it hard to believe such a controversial measure as PCSOs does not have such a section. Christian1985 (talk) 23:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You are only seeing it from one PoV... I mean, the phrase "FTP" is banded about all the time and there are many sectors of society who despise the police, yet this is not covered in the Police article? Seems strange a similar section be included in PCSOs and not the Police article? For instance, every criticism you direct towards PCSOs could also be extended towards Police Officers. It might make more sense to elaborate on the official (i.e. Home Office) reasons as to why they were introduced in the first place.leopheard (talk) 23:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

similar programs - Germany should be added
There is a similar program in Germany and it should be added to the above section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnungsamt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.12.48.164 (talk) 22:35, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok ill sort it well spotted--T9062856 (talk) 14:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization
If this title of the article describes the official title of the PSCO, should it be capitalized as such? I.e., "Police Community Support Officer". Zujua (talk) 00:13, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I won't step in and fix this while someone seems to be moving things around, but we should also drop the "(PCSO)" from the title, per WP:TITLEFORMAT ("It is [...] unnecessary to include an acronym in addition to the name in a title"). --McGeddon (talk) 20:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone I suspect one of those who got rejected the PCSO application process keeps vandalising the page by getting rid of capitalisation i.e "Police Community Support Officer" to "Police community support officer" May I ask they stop!!! PS I've tried fixing the problem but made a bit of a hash of it by using the redirect if anyone can fix the damage please do --T9062856 (talk) 20:29, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I have to admit that I'm a little unsure myself now. As Fuhghettaboutit pointed out in his edit summary, WP:JOBTITLES says that most titles shouldn't be capitalized unless they're part of a proper noun, basically.  It's a guideline, and not a policy, however we'd still need good reason to contradict it.  I'd argue that it should be capitalized since it's the title of an officially defined position rather than a generic term, but I'm not entirely sure that it's correct.  Zujua (talk) 07:09, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Look at the legislation. You won't find it capitalised. Why would you capitalise a generic reference? And someone is also capitalising "constable" and "police constable". Why? Mooretwin (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that the serious press doesn't capitalise this job title The Independent; The Guardian. Mooretwin (talk) 09:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite. The job title should plainly not be capitalised. We would refer to a police officer, not a Police Officer, and the same rules plainly apply to these psuedo-policemen. AGK  [•] 02:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Unreliable sources
Looking through the sources here, I notice the article is using some WP:PRIMARY sources possibly inappropriately. We can't use someone's Flickr photo or YouTube video to source a disputable statement (such as the Flickr shot of a British Transport Police PSCO with handcuffs as a source to claim that all such officers in the UK are issued with them), because there's no editorial control of that source - the creator may have described it wrongly, or manipulated it. We also seem to be using Wikipedia talk pages, a 404 error page and a Wikia site for The Bill as sources, which clearly do not meet WP:RS. --McGeddon (talk) 20:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and cut the majority of these sources. Flickr and YouTube images can be acceptable where they originate from a police force or news service, but photos and videos from private individuals are rarely useful, and it's inappropriate to leap from "here is someone's photo of a single PCSO carrying some handcuffs" to "therefore all PCSOs carry handcuffs at all times". The article may need further checking to make sure that its claims are backed up accurately by the given sources - the assertion that all Australian PCSOs are armed was only sourced to a news story about how a Melbourne railway station was planning to introduce armed officers in that single location only. --McGeddon (talk) 09:32, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your efforts with the sourcing. The references section is now much more robust. (Am I the only person who thinks this article seemed like it had been written by a PCSO or somebody whose job is to recruit PCSOs? I just perused and improved the article, and had to cut out a lot of puffery.) AGK  [•] 02:02, 29 March 2013 (UTC)