Talk:Polish–Ottoman War (1672–1676)

Fief?!
"Poland as fief of ottoman empire"? Excuse me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.40.212.106 (talk) 10:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC) Unless someone posts something that supports Poland as a Fief in the next 60 days I will remove the claim. The only sources I've been able to find using google was this wikipedia page and the treaty page on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Buchach. Both state treaty was never ratified and that the war continued. Funny4life (talk)

Result
@SebbeKg

Both sides claim victory is nonsense and clearly POV pushing; the Poles never considered this victory as stated in the article ''The Sejm rejected the treaty through the actions of Austrian diplomats and Pope Innocent XI. Sobieski also was forced to reduce his army from 30,000 to 12,000 men.'' and according to this Polish site, the treaty was met with hostility from the nobles who lost their territories in central Ukraine and Podolia. (This site never claims the Ottomans lost the battle of Zurwano, like you tried to change but ended in a peace treaty.). You can talk about military victories as much as you like; this won't change the fact that the Ottomans had achieved their objectives at the beginning of the war.

Beneficial treaty? Ah yes, losing your territories in central Ukraine and Podolia is clearly beneficial for the Poles, who were already weak enough to liberate their lost territories. Stopping the tribute and regaining a small amount of Podolia is not enough to reverse their loss. عبدالرحمن4132 (talk) 16:14, 30 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Both sides claim victory is true and you are the one that is pushing your POV, you are constantly changing the outcomes for wars and conflicts favouring the Islamic empires. In order to ratify the treaty, the Commonwealth sent to Istanbul Jan Gninski, the voivode of Chelmno Voivodeship. He stayed there in 1677–1678, but in the meantime, Polish Sejm refused to ratify the document. Soon afterwards, the Great Turkish War broke out. After the Treaty of Karlowitz, Podolia returned to Poland. So if we consider that Ottomans were defeated in the battles during that war, and the treaties were rejected by Polish sejm, than it is obvious that the war was indecisive as both sides saw it as their victory, Poles managed to defeat the Ottoman army, and Ottomans were able to keep parts of Podolia, which they lost few years later. Ottoman objective was to break the Polish dominance in the region, which they failed due to the defeats at the Battles of Khotyn, Zurawno etc. so the Ottoman objective was not realised.
 * As forr the beneficial treaty, there was a mistake it should be Polish-Lithuanian military victory, beneficial treaty in favour to the Ottoman Empire. Tribute was never paid to the Ottomans as the Polish sejm refused to ratify both of the treaties. And it wan not a small part of Podolia but 2/3 of the region. SebbeKg (talk) 16:24, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The Great Turkish War broke out. After the Treaty of Karlowitz, Podolia returned to Poland.
 * What does the great Turkish war have to do with this conflict?
 * Ottomans were able to keep parts of Podolia, which they lost few years later. Ottoman objective was to break the Polish dominance in the region, which they failed due to the defeats at the Battles of Khotyn, Zurawno etc. so the Ottoman objective was not realised.
 * No, this is wrong; the treaty confirmed the Ottoman supremacy over the region of Podolia for most of it, so they achieved their objective.
 * the Polish sejm refused to ratify both of the treaties
 * They did sign the Treaty of Buchach in 1678.
 * And it wan not a small part of Podolia but 2/3 of the region
 * The exact opposite happened; they only retained Bila Tserkva and Pavoloch and the sources I sent above refute you. عبدالرحمن4132 (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Historical background:
 * In the seventeenth century a Cossack uprising broke out in Poland under the leadership of Bohdan Khmelnytsky the Cossacks initially won a number of victories, but defeats at the battles of Beresteczko and in subsequent years forced the Cossacks to surrender to Russia, which contributed to Russia's invasion of Poland the following year Poland was also invaded by Sweden, which wanted to subdue the shores of the Baltic Sea. This war was known as the Deluge and contributed to the complete devastation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
 * Sultan Mehmed IV wanted to take advantage of Poland's destruction, his objective was to defeat Poland once and for all, in 1667 he supported Hetman Petro Doroshenko with several thousand Janissaries, but they were beaten at the Battle of Podhajce. The defeat of the Cossacks, Tatars and Turks in the war of 1666-1671 forced Petro Doroshenko to recognize Mehmed IV as his superior, and in 1672 a huge Turkish, Tatar, Cossack invasion fell on Poland.
 * First stage of the war:
 * In 1672 a huge Turkish army of more than 120,000 troops besieged the castle in Kamieniec Podolski which was guarded by only 1,500 Poles. The defenders bravely defended themselves for more than a week inflicting huge losses on the Turks, killing between 5,000-8,000 and wounding another 10,000 (btw. a few days ago you also vandalised this page), but due to the opponent's numerical superiority they had to surrender and Kamieniec ended up in the hands of the Turks.
 * Jan Sobieski's expedition to Tatar chambuls and battle of Khotyn
 * However, a year later Jan Sobieski went on an expedition to disperse the Tartar chambuls with much success and recaptured some 44,000 slaves. Sobieski's troops defeated the Turkish-Tatar armies at the battles of Krasnobrod, Belz, Narol, Nemirów, Komarno, Petranka and Kalush. Sobieski's expedition was a complete success and contributed to the growth of his prestige in the country. In 1673 Sobieski at the head of 30,000 troops crushed the Turkish army at the Battle of Khotyn, in which almost the entire Turkish army was destroyed, out of 35,000 Turks only a few thousand or even a few hundred escaped. After this defeat the Ottomans had to witdrew from Poland to reorganize their army.
 * Internal conflict in Poland and treaty of Buchach
 * Sobieski's victories brought him great glory in Poland, a large part of the nobility began to seriously consider placing Sobieski on the Polish throne, which eventually led to, internal conflict between Sobieski and the king Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki. To counteract Sobieski's ambitions, Wiśniowiecki signed a humiliating treaty in Buchach in 1673, in which he handed over Podolia to the Turks. Wiśniowiecki's actions caused great outrage in Poland, which led to the non-ratification of the treaty and the war continued. (In the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth the king couldn't sign a treaty alone without permission from the nobles, for more informations see; Golden Liberty ). However, Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki died soon and Jan Sobieski took the throne.
 * Second stage of the war:
 * In 1675, the Turks invaded Poland again, but they were defeated in the Battle of Lwów, which forced them to retreat to the border of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. There, near Zurawno, Sobieski fortified himself in a camp that was soon besieged by the Turks. However, the Turks failed to capture the Polish camp and after a few week siege, Ibrahim Seytan was forced to negotiate with the Poles. A treaty was signed in Zurawno which returned three quarters of Podolia to Poland, the Turks retained only the Kamieniec Podolski fortress and the surrounding area. (And it was not only Pavloch and Bila Tserkva that Poland regained but also all surrounding areas)
 * As for the sources you send me, all are taken out of context and do not show the entire war and its aftermath but only small excerpts. However, link number two shows the course of the war best:
 * Link nr.2:  Conflict between Russia and Poland over Ukraine during 1660s (The Deluge) had resulted in the occupation of most of the Ukraine by the Poles. In 1672, the hetman of the Zaporozhye Cossacks acknowledged Ottoman authority instead and appealed for help against the Polish forces. Koprulu marches with an army of 200,000 men in June 1672. They quickly occupied the province of Podolia (Siege of Kamenets), but this invasion inspired Polish opposition under Jan Sobieski. Althought the Polish king accepted the Polish gains (Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki), his death allowed Sobieski to invade Ukraine and defeat a larger Turkish army at Khotyn in November 1673 (almost the entire Ottoman army was annihilated during the battle, out of 35,000 Ottoman troops, up to 30,000 were either killed or captured). The Turks withdrew only to return again in 1675. Again Sobieski defeated the Turks, this time at the Battle of Lwów, yet another attempt, to invade Poland was defeated at the Battle of Zurawno in 1676 (two days ago you have been arguining with me that the battle was indecisive, and you kept vandalising this page). When Sobieski became involved with a new war against Sweden, however he was forced to sign the Treaty of Zurawno on October, 1676, This treaty confirmed direct Ottoman rule over Podolia and left the rest of Ukraine under the Sultan's suzereinty.  (Poland regained 2/3 of control over Podolia and Ukraine was not part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth since the Khmelnytsky Uprising).
 * So in summary, the war ended in Polish-Lithuanian military victory and Beneficial treaty in favour to the Ottoman Empire. SebbeKg (talk) 20:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * And btw. the text was written by myself i did not copy it. SebbeKg (talk) 20:39, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't even know why you would write an entire detailed description of the war; our topic is the result of the war, and my sources clearly state that the Ottomans gained control of Podolia and parts of central Ukraine, which the Ottomans have achieved, so the result is Ottoman victory. Keep your military victories aside; when you enter the war and achieve your objectives, you win. You did not even attempt to refute whatever is said in the source to which I replied. You proceeded to mention the great Turkish war, and now you mention the whole conflict of 1672–76. عبدالرحمن4132 (talk) 14:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC)