Talk:Polish Legions (Napoleonic era)

Accuracy dispute: The Haitian campaign
The section of the article about Poles in Haiti is internally contradictory, contradictory with the historical record, and contradictory with mainstream accounts. The citation here is a 1995 email reviewing a book, which is not a particularly good citation (and draws conclusions unsupported by even its own interpretation of the book).

Undisputed historical facts:


 * Some number of Poles left the French forces to join the rebelling slaves.
 * Those Poles served essential functions, since in contrast to the rebelling slaves, they had formal training and could operate artillery, act as engineers, etc.
 * "Polanders" were included in the first few Haitian constitutions with status of "Noir." Whites were banned from owning land, otherwise, and most were killed or expelled from Haiti. Poles could settle there.
 * We were left with 200+ years of strong camaraderie between Poland and Haiti since then, and this has moved into the identity of both nations.

Where there are contradictions between narratives is how this happened:


 * Who initiated? Poles? Haitians? Both
 * What size units defected (individuals? large groups? etc.?)
 * What were the key motivations?
 * What was the total number of defectors? Secondary sources typically land at around a half-thousand, but there's a large spread.
 * Germans. The Haitian constitution lists both. There are accounts that this more-or-less refers to the same Poles. There's a complex argument about Poland being partitioned, identity, and ethnicity. There are also accounts of a group of Germans who sat out the hostilities.
 * Etc.

I don't think this is the place for original research, and I'm not sure the article should get into this level of detail.

Contradition with Polish Haitian Article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitian

Disagrees with the write-up on this page. The section on this page criticising the ideas used in /Polish_Haitian seem to fail the NPOV test.

For example, the title is "The disastrous Haitian campaign" Disastrous for the French, successful for the freedom-seeking Haitian slaves. Similarly: "In Haiti there still is a popular myth... In fact, the actual desertion rate was much lower" Referring to what seems to be a contested bit of history as a 'myth' implies it's known-false and saying 'in fact' takes on a voice of authority inappropriate for a contentious issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.166.35.218 (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Rename
I think this article would benefit from renaming into Polish Legions (Napoleonic period) or just Polish Legions (Napoleon). While the legions were formed in Italy, they are usually associated with France and Napoleon. While in Poland it's common to call the formation 'Legiony Polskie we Włoszech' (that's the name on article on pl wiki), in fact they served outsdie Italy for the most time (Legiony Polskie z Włoch' - Polish Legions from Italy - would me more correct, as that's where the unit originated). French Wiki has the article under Légions polonaises (armée française) (and Polish Legion (France) or Polish Legions (French Army) can also be considered.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I find the above argument quite convincing. How about Polish Legions under Napoleon a.k.a. Polish Legions in Italy, to coincide with Polish Legions page which does not include brackets, i.e. Polish Legions in World War I, Polish 1st Legions Infantry Division, Polish 2nd Legions' Infantry Regiment etc. --Poeticbent  talk   19:13, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's also a good idea.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 04:16, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Napoleon's Relations with the Poles
The last sentence of this article states, "Yet even today the memory of Napoleon's Polish Legions is strong, and Napoleon himself, despite the cynical way that he treated the Poles, is often regarded in Poland as a hero and liberator." This is totally outrageous Napoleon saw the Poles amoung the best foreign troops in his service, Their were the Polish Lancer of the Old Guard, the Vistual Legion, and the troops of the Grand-Duchy of Warsaw were of an extremely high caliber as well. Józef Antoni Poniatowski was amoung his greatest independent Marshal. His first son was born to him by a Polish mistress who wanted to accompany him in exile both times!! Where did this notion come from that Napoleon did not respect the Poles? He had his doubt about the Grand Duke of Warsaw, August of Saxony, but that was only because the poor old bastard was insane. I suggest this part is ammended to say that Napoleon had nothing but respect for Poland and the Poles. See Eltings Swords Around a Throne. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jak1985 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge from 2nd Polish Legion
That article seems to be about 114th Demibrigade, a unit of the Polish legions. It is poorly structured, and named. I think we should try to salvage what we can here and redirect it.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 21:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure how to fit the information in here and don't want to mess up a Good article. I will leave the information below so you can take that you need out of it.

In November 1802 the 2nd Polish Demibrigade was assigned to fight the insurgents of the Haitian Revolution. At the same time they were to be redisignated as the 114th French Demibrigade of the Line, as had previously been done with the 3rd (Danube) Polish Legion when they had been sent to the colony earlier that year. On 16 December outside the Ducal Palace of Parma, Italy they were formal informed of their redesignation and that officers and men would gain French citizenship through naturalisation. On 1 January 1803 while based in genoa, their full strength was put at 2,851. The main force left embarked on board the three ships, the L'argonaute, Le Fougueux and Le Heros on January 24, 1803, departing on January 27. A further 475 sailed boarded the La Vertu and La Serpente on January 29, making a total of 2,447 men leaving for Haiti.

B-class review
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 21:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Low moral due to fighting Italians
I cannot find any ref to justify keeping the following in the body. Feel free to restore, with an appropriate ref. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 04:12, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Further, Poles had a natural sympathy for people fighting for their own independence and saw the Italian cause for independence as similar to that of their own; yet they were used by the French to put down uprisings (like that in the Papal States).

Big statements
"the Legions became legendary in Poland, helping to spread the civic and democratic ideals of the French Revolution throughout the country.[1][30][35][36]"

Why would Poles need "civic and democratic" ideals of French Revolution when they had deeper and actually established ideals of their own before those? What is attempted to be said with this sentence? It is flying in the air, the sentence does not mean anything, it is shallow and empty. What ideals? where and when, for who?

Overall I believe this is a personal insight and should not be here. Poles did not seek revolution, they searched for independence. The writer forgot that Polish constitution was before French revolution it seems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KTTdestroyer (talk • contribs) 15:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

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