Talk:Polish Righteous Among the Nations/Archive 1

Reason
Can we have a ref for this claim? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that most of the Jewish casualties of the Holocaust were not incurred on Polish territory? References are only required where a statement can be contested --mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 02:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No; I am asking whether there is a refs that states that there is a correlation (and most significant one at that) between the fact that Poland has the highest number of Righteous and that most Jews lived in Poland. I.e. a ref for the sentence you wrote: "Polish citizens have the highest total count of the Righteous Among the Nations in the world which is largely related to Poland being the epicenter of the German Nazi Holocaust." It is likely this was a major factor, but this needs to be referenced (otherwise it is an OR) and perhaps there where other factors at play which you did not think of.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ok--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 12:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Czesław Miłosz
Can someone explain it to me, what this guy is doing on this list? There is nothing about his war activity in the article about him, except that he didn't take part in the Warsaw Uprising. I only know he wrote a poem in 1943 - Campo di Fiori, but there is no telling how many lives this poem saved. Thanks! greg park avenue (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The only thing I can say is that Milosz has been given the distinciton. I'd love to know how Yad Vashem explained their decission, but I suspect that the honor was given out of respect for his work. --Poeticbent talk  01:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a pretty good assumption, I gather. I am only glad User Piotrus singled out Poland from that excuse for an article about the so called righteous among the nations applicants comparing Poland to Holland saving Wikipedia from another disgrace. A line from The Deluge (novel) comes to mind: Kończ Waść, wstydu oszczędź, know what I mean? greg park avenue (talk) 02:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, we should certainly respect Holland's Righteous. As for Miłosz, we could try emailing Yad Vashem and ask - I had done so before at least once and they do tend to reply.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * With all due respect to Holland's resistance fighters - OK, so let's try to email YV to find out what Miłosz got this award for. I tend to agree with the assumption by User Poeticbent, but we both might be wrong until we know for sure, otherwise I would suggest to dump Miłosz to Lithuania, since we talk nationalities, not countries of Anmeldung during the war. And I suspect our Lithuanian brothers buy a Nobel Prize winner for a song.


 * I agree. Polish literature could afford to cede a couple of Polish-language "Lithuanian" poets, including Czesław Miłosz, to our Lithuanian brethren.  They would appreciate getting a Nobel laureate of their own, and maybe they and their  confrères of various nationalities would not feel as much urgency about posthumously de-Polonizing Fryderyk Chopin, Ignacy Domeyko, Józef Piłsudski, Maria Skłodowska-Curie, Stefan Banach and (still an active bone of contention) Mikołaj Kopernik.  Nihil novi (talk) 03:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And who told you that Milosz was Lithuanian since he was born on the teritory that was the part of Russia a the time in a Polish family that was usin the Polish Szlachta Coat of Arms Lubicz. More over he returned to democratic Poland not democratic Lithuania...--12.198.27.100 (talk) 00:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * One name, which I would contribute to this project if I knew more details, comes to mind - Hofmann - don't know his first name, he was a German commandant of a village Sulęcin (county of Środa Wielkopolska near Poznań) German garrison during war. One day a snitch came to him to denounce that a Jew or someone like that was hiding at a local family, which happened to be my aunt's. Hofmann, before taking any action, informed the family in person that such a denounciation took place, and gave them 24 hours to hide the person in question somewhere else. It worked. The fugitive was moved overnight across Warta river to Miłosław, where sister of my grandma lived, and survived. I don't know for sure if she was Jewish (she escaped from Westfalen from a labor camp), but I think this fellow Hofmann deserves more attention than Miłosz, whose unfortunate poem Campo di Fiori, was more suited to please Nazi Germans back in 1943, than Jewish nationals or Israeli citizens after all these years. Of course, for the likes as "new historians" as Mr Gross, the author of the Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz, appear to be, it'd be a gold mine to explore, I guess. Hope, he hasn't discover Campo di Fiori yet, lol. greg park avenue (talk) 17:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Greg, please keep in mind, this is a Wikipedia listing of the recipients of a significant international award, strictly adhering to WP:VERIFY policy guidelines. We are not supposed to engage in WP:OR, regardless of the human heroism involved. --Poeticbent talk  18:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * All right, sorry for OR - it was just an example to show how many nameless people may or may not be on that list. I go with User Piotrus this time (see below). If we gonna copy that list here in Wikipedia, we need verification from Yad Vashem with stating loud and clear: WHY THOSE PERSONS HAVE BEEN SINGLED OUT FROM THE CROWD? Capisce? As per WP:V, period. They (YV) either supply it somewhere, where we (English Wikipedians) have access to verify it, or we should abandon this infamous list, at least the one regarding Poland. I won't bother to sent emails to that clowns from YV!!!! Still with me? That's their responsibility to provide it, or we just make a short article stating such a list exists but concerning Polish nationals, it is as unreliable as Wildstein list presumably is, until someone proves otherwise, period. Besides, would you like to publish most famous names on Wildstein's list in English Wikipedia? The former Polish president Lech Wałęsa would be there, while the Polish current president Lech Kaczyński would probably be not, since dossiers of Kaczyński brethren, who brought the Solidarity movement to its fall from the inside, back in 1981, recently mysteriously disappeared. greg park avenue (talk) 19:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Criterion of notability
Should we aim to list all 6,066 Polish Righteous here, by defining any recipient of such an award as notable? Or should we have a more strict criterion of inclusion, for example a mention in some publication other than a general list of Righteous from YV? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * These are all very good questions. I looked into them already while considering the new names for the list. I’d like the most prominent examples to grow progressively. The criteria for inclusion however will probably remain flexible. In some instances, as in the case of Poles who aided thousands of Jews, a mere mention by Yad Vashem seems sufficient enough, while in most other cases, a separate article online or a paragraph in a book would merit the inclusion. In other words, I’d like to leave the validation to sources who already spoke about those Righteous at length. The ultimate question is how many names could we have here out of thousands of award recipients. This perhaps could be decided by the community. Keep in mind though that the never-ending expansion of the List of Poles is a popular pastime for Polish Wikipedians.

And one more question. Piotrus, are you willing to help write articles about the people whose names you red linked recently? I suppose you would. Otherwise, I’d rather add names with solid online references, but without hotlinks for a time being, because the entire list is beginning to turn red. --Poeticbent talk  17:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I may write an article or few - but my 'to do' list is big enough as it is. The reddness however is good - it tells others that the articles are needed, and provides an easy, one click way to start them.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Once we get the list going, the only remaining criterion for inclusion, in my opinion, should be to have the article written already. That's a lot of work of course, but I'd like to encourage others to begin by surfing the net in search of literature which is available. --Poeticbent talk  21:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't encourage others what to do for your country. Think about what you can do for others. John Fitzgerald Kennedy. There are some tips regarding the issue in question (how to be or not to be on that list, following Czesław Miłosz example):
 * 1. Don't be fool, stay in school (always actual),
 * 2. Be smart, don't fight (cool in Warsaw High 1944),
 * 3. Fight plaque, not Iraq (most actual).
 * greg park avenue (talk) 21:42, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I’m having difficulty understanding your point, Greg park avenue. Would you please explain what you mean by comparing Yad Vashem Righteous to Wildstein list including all that other stuff about JFK? This is the first time I see such outright condemnation of an established authority, so I'd like to understand what's at stake. And also, please give me a source where I can read more about that sort of criticism. --Poeticbent talk  00:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe this would explain why the guy is on that list? greg park avenue (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It may also not have hurt that one of Czesław Miłosz's mentors was his relative, the French-language "Lithuanian" poet Oscar Milosz, whose mother was Jewish (from Warsaw). Nihil novi (talk) 02:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Milosz has already been removed from our criterion of notability list, so this score is settled. I only add he was the only guy out of a million city inhabitiants to testify, the event, he was referring to in Campo di Fiori, really happened. No one else, includning Jewish survivors, corroborated his story. There was evidently a corousel like that in 1943 Warsaw, installed by Germans, but it was seldom in use, and when it was, nobody rode it. And according to many witnesses it was located far from the Ghetto walls. greg park avenue (talk) 16:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

List
Perhaps we should update our list to a sortable table (see Help:Table). I suggest categories: 1) person 2) aids (family, friends) 3) location 4) short description of form of help, with reference 5) whether the person(s) was persecuted and/or killed by the Germans.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I would rather be against such highly structured approach, advantages notwithstanding. In a sortable table there would be no place for pictures, which are adding a human face to a human tragedy. Let’s “leave it to beaver” for now and wait for others to express their points of view. Generally speaking though, most Wikipedia lists of persons are free-floating. --Poeticbent talk  17:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Alphabetize "Some of the 6,066"
Whatever else the editors decide to do with this list, I would urge them to alphabetize it for greater ease of reference.

Presenting a sampling of the Polish Righteous among the Nations (which is itself a sampling of all those who assisted the Jews in wartime Poland) is a good idea, if only as an antidote to the virulent antipolonism spread in some quarters (including by some of the very beneficiaries of the Polish efforts to save the Jews—e.g., cf. "Jerzy Kosiński"). Nihil novi (talk) 03:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree (a sortable table would do it and more...).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Good article?
Once everything is referenced, and the refs are properly formatted (currently we have to many non-descriptive links like this: ), this would be a good candidate for a Good Article (WP:GAC).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This link points to the article. greg park avenue (talk) 16:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Clarified.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the article is ready for a GA nomination. Any objections? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nominating.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Catholic Church
I am moving this here, as currently it does not fit in the article: "A large percentage of Polish Righteous among the Nations of the World were, in fact, deeply religious."

Image copyright problem with Image:Henryk Wolinski.jpg
The image Image:Henryk Wolinski.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * File:Ac.karski2.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --13:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

I'll be reviewing this article. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 13:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

(1). Well written: '''1 (a). the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and''' '''1 (b). it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.'''

(2). Factually accurate and verifiable:  '''2 (a). it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;''' '''2 (b). at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and''' '''2 (c). it contains no original research.'''

(3). Broad in its coverage:  '''3 (a). it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and''' '''3 (b). it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail'''

'''(4). Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias. '''

(5). Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

(6). Illustrated, if possible, by images: 6 (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and  '''6 (b). images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions'''

1a
 * In total 6,066 people[1] despite the fact that in German-occupied Poland all household members were punished by death if a Jew were found concealed in their home or on their property. What happened to the 6,066 people? Kensplanet (talk) 13:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I just fixed that. Jehochman Talk 13:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens hid hundreds of thousands of their Jewish neighbours; many of them were individual initiatives, but there were also more or less organized networks dedicated to aiding this task. This needs a copyedit. ''Many Non-Jewish Polish citizens hid thousands of their Jewish neighbours; many of them were individual initiatives, but dedicated organized networks were also present. Kensplanet (talk) 13:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Most notably, in September 1942, the Provisional Committee to Aid Jews (Tymczasowy Komitet Pomocy Żydom) was founded on the initiative of Zofia Kossak-Szczucka Please provide some context for Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, like what was s/he. Was s/he a Polish writer, soldier ec...
 * Prose looks good after copyedits. Kensplanet (talk) 08:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

1b
 * The Lead is incomplete. No mention of Activities in the Lead. Kensplanet (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've expanded the lead. Is it satisfactory now? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

2b *Checking References. All References checked. Looks fine for a GA. Kensplanet (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * REF 58 gives a forbidden error. Kensplanet (talk) 13:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

6a
 * Image:Ac.karski2.jpg and Image:Henryk Wolinski.jpg violate WP:NFC. There are so many free images of Notable Righteous Polish people present that you need not use copyrighted images. Please fix that. Kensplanet (talk) 13:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Karski can be replaced with free Image:Jan Karski.jpg.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 05:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thankyou, I have done it.


 * Secondly, Image:Maria-Kotarba-Auschwitz.jpg has also been tagged for deletion on Commons. It may be a copyrighted Image. Unless and until you prove it it is not copyrighted, this article cannot pass GA. I suggest you to remove that image and put it back later when its copyright status is proved. Kensplanet (talk) 13:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have removed Image:Henryk Wolinski.jpg which is violation of WP:NFC and temporarily removed Image:Maria-Kotarba-Auschwitz.jpg which may be deleted in the best interest of the article. You can readd it later.

This article satisfies all GA criteria. Hence, it will be promoted. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 08:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Rename?
Should this be renamed to Polish recipients of Righteous among the Nations medals? r ʨ anaɢ talk/contribs 22:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Edits by User:141.109.57.44
Situation in Eastern Poland during WWII was complex enough to merit its own discussion, but the survey in the US by Joshua D. Zimmerman about Armia Krajowa is not relevant to the subject of the Righteous article. Some survivors traveling from the East, who deposited their own testimonies in 1945 before emigration to Israel – might have had connections with the Soviet NKVD as explained by Rossino from the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. Some, participated in the deportation of Poles to Siberia, others (after joining the NKVD) might have taken part in operations against units of the Polish Secret State while under orders from the Red Army. The current beliefs expressed during an interview cannot explain the situation properly. Therefore, I removed the irrelevant info. — Matalea (talk) 20:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Witold Pilecki
Witold Pilecki is not listed in "Righteous among the Nations". See: http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/statistics.asp The Righteous Among the Nations Department Righteous Among the Nations Honored by Yad Vashem By 1 January 2012

........... Pilat, Pawel & Helena 2001 Pilat, Piotr & wife, children Leon, Wincenty, Jan & his wife Matylda 1965/1990 Pilch, Kasper, ch. Czeslawa & Stanislaw 2007 Pilecka, Michalina 1992 Pindelak, Roman & Paulina 1979 Pindor, Stanislaw & mother 1990 .................

Sjam2004 (talk) 09:12, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

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Requested move 9 April 2018
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page as proposed at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 07:25, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Polish Righteous Among the Nations → List of Polish Righteous Among the Nations – Same as all the other pages of this type (e.g. List of Chinese Righteous Among the Nations, List of Albanian Righteous Among the Nations WhatsUpWorld (talk) 21:27, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a contested technical request (permalink). &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:32, 9 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose - it looks much more like an article than a list to me... the "list" is just a small section at the bottom. At least needs a discussion, it doesn't look uncontroversial, and the Chinese one too... that was only just moved tonight. Thanks &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 21:32, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Absolutely oppose – rationale provided by is spot on; I couldn't say it better myself. BTW, the Chinese Righteous Among the Nations is NO list at all but a straight-forward article WITHOUT a stand-alone WP:LIST in it. Somebody, please fix the botched Template:Righteous Among the Nations as well. Thanks,  Poeticbent  <span style="color:#FFFFFF;font-size:7.0pt;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk  00:18, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Amakuru and Poeticbent.   Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:13, 10 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

SYNTH / OR
I have removed this section as highly POV, OR and SYNTH which has nothing to do with the topic of this article - Yad Vashem's Righteous designation. In general, this article does not conform to articles of Righteous of other nations (some of whom were more numerous per capita) and contains quite a bit of POV pushing in other sections as well that misrepresents consensus amongst scholars. However the "misconceptions" section is perhaps something that could go on a FAQ section of a Polish advocacy group - but not on Wikipedia.Icewhiz (talk) 20:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Death Penalty
, RE this diff, could we agree on removing JVL (not a great source in general, and does not say anything about the death penalty), remove isurvived - which is Anna Poray's personal website - a WP:SPS, and retain google1 which is Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future which has a decent publisher (also possible to beef up with better sources, but seems sufficient). I suggest we modify "The usual punishment for aiding Jews was death, applied to entire families." to "Aiding Jews could, and often did, lead to the death penalty for every member of the aiding family" - matching the source.Icewhiz (talk) 18:16, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Find first few incidents (CONFIRMED by reliable scholarly sources) of Polish helpers not being shot for hiding Jews first ok? GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:34, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * jvl is a perfectly fine source.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:59, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * JVL is not a great source - but in this case it simply does not mention the death penalty at all - we are linking to a table of Righteous awards per country (which is relevant for other stuff).Icewhiz (talk) 21:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * - I actually do not have to refute this by example, as reliable sources do not subscribe to this national myth, including the source used in the article (which uses "could" and "often"). The reality is that the Nazis had the death penalty on the books for many offenses, also killed (Poles and others) extra-judicially (for offenses that didn't have the death penalty - or just because whatever Nazi had a whim). Enforcement of the death penalty (for all the various offense on which it was imposed, including aiding Jews) was not uniform and depended on circumstances as well as the whim of the Nazi personnel involved. However, here is an example - Newerly, Igor (Abramow, Jerzy) - who was arrested for helping Jews, but was not executed, and survived the war. There are several other examples. Helping Jews was certainly extremely risky - but we should be precise in our article.Icewhiz (talk) 05:57, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Do you know the circumstance od Igor Newerly arrest? He was never exposed or caught with the Jews in hiding, not even Hersztein. He was accused of helping them, arrested and interrogated by the Gestapo, that accusation alone threw him into Pawiak. If he was caught with the hiding Jews, he would be DEAD, shot on the spot, together with the people he helped. Try again. Find somebody caught helping Jews and given a “parking ticket”.GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:25, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, I do not have to refute by example when we have a source saying "often". And I never said "parking ticket" - this was a serious act of defiance against the Nazis - and unless one got out of it by bribing or via providing information of value to the Nazis, the punishment was severe (and not a "parking ticket"). However just in case a further example will help dispel a possible misconception - here - Wanda Ajdels, nee Pawłowska - who was arrested for hiding a Jew (her future husband) in her family's attic.Icewhiz (talk) 06:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong again, she escaped that’s why she survived, but you are right that the Gestapo sometimes kept valuable (in their mind) people alive to obtain information or turn people into agents, such as in her case. BUT a regular folk (which means %99) who was not of any value to the Germans was shot, right away, on the spot, and the bodies were left for everyone to see, just like Józef and Wiktoria Ulma & family. Toss another example if you still have the energy for it, maybe I'll soften my stance by %1.GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You linked to the wrong link on sprawiedliwi. This is the correct one - - which says " Wanda, cruelly beaten during interrogation, was placed in the prison hospital and was later put into the hospital on Malczewska Street. From there, with the help of nuns, she managed to escape after four months. She hid with friends until the end of the War." - so not only didn't the Nazis execute her (on the spot or immediately afterwards), they placed her in a prison hospital and afterwards a general hospital - from which she escaped four months later. QED - found at least one case that refutes your position (and the appropriate source here - is following the language in an academic source - which uses "often").Icewhiz (talk) 07:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It was not “often” but “regularly or automatically” (plenty of sources to back this up) with maybe a few rare exceptions such as the one case of Wanda you were able to find. “Often” is raining in Seattle or babies "often" cry at night. But no “often” in this case. “often” is not the right word to address it.GizzyCatBella (talk) 08:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Academic sources, including the one in the article, do not agree with your assertion. If caught - Poles aiding Jews with often killed by the Nazis, not always.Icewhiz (talk) 06:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

JVL
JVL is a highly questionable source (I edited its article once). They routinely cite content to Wikipedia; at best, it's a tertiary source that lists its general sources. At worst, it's unreliable at all. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:57, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you recommend any other reference?GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:24, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * See proposal by Icewhiz at the top of the thread. The sentence has three cites; one is plenty. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * He recommended to eliminate all others sources and retain this one ‘’Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future’’. Why do you think this reference is the best?GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * JVL is questionable while Poray is SPS. The book is neither. I thought it's pretty obvious; why did you ask? --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:45, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Because numerous other sources are talking about the death penalty besides the above. So why this specific one? GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:51, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Because it's already in the article. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:54, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The JVL, besides being a borderline source (I'm more mild than KEC here) - doesn't say anything about the death penalty. I will note that it is not contentious that the Nazis often executed Poles (as they did elsewhere in Eastern Europe) for helping Jews - one citation should be OK here - and it is not a problem to beef it up with another - e.g. this one. Icewhiz (talk) 06:03, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Why not use one from this list instead?      GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:08, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Ewa Kurek, is not an appropriate source - per David Silberklang - "she distorts things so radically and so egregiously that she’s basically in the realm of Holocaust denial, or at least extreme distortion"..Icewhiz (talk) 06:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Is Kurek distorting anything in the book that might me use as a reference? I see somewhat positive remarks about the book itself. Can you give an example of her falsifications in the book "Your life is worth mine"? GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:55, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * This must be the 5th or 6th time we're discussing Kurek and the Death penalty in Poland under the Nazis. I refer to Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241. Specifically, the assertion that Poland was the "only country"with a deth penalty for helping Jews, is patently false (as more or less the same order was issued and implemented throughout Eastern Europe, Serbia, Norway, etc.). Regardless, such an author is WP:QS.Icewhiz (talk) 07:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes I know we did, and I could concur with you on some points but what is wrong with this particular book "Your life is worth mine"? and how many people were executed in Norway for helping Jews? Are there any data on that? According the ToI “It is estimated that between 1,000 and 1,500 Poles were killed for defying German decrees of 1941 and 1942 that banned any aid for Jews.”GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:44, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * What if David Silberklang distorts something?Xx236 (talk) 07:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

June 2019 edit
Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: removing non RS -- dubious web site & fringe author "Mark Paul". --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:22, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You haven't corected numbers of the Reighteous, which is basic information here. Xx236 (talk) 08:09, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Murdered Poles aren't recognized by Israel
http://www.currenteventspoland.com/analysis/Poles-murdered-for-helping-Jews.html?fbclid=IwAR0DvWtMmvE8uS9v9aSj4cQ_5f_9DvOih3ox8iZoZxiV9IczNnF0TGYGVOc Xx236 (talk) 07:58, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Grabowski's press review of this article
Recently Jan Z. Grabowski published an article on Gazeta Wyborcza, in which he mentions this article. Below is the Google Translation of his critique of this article. PS. I did contact him and receive a permission to post that excerpt, translated, here. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

In the case of Jedwabne, there can be no great false speech - the matter is known in the world and too brazen lies would have been caught by "foreign" editors. Things look worse when the English reader wishes to learn from Wikipedia something about Poles awarded the Yad Vashem medal by the Righteous Among the Nations medal (slogan: "Polish Righteous Among the Nations"). After the customary emphasis that Poles constitute the largest group among the Righteous, "editors" take the wind in their sails: Poles hid and helped hundreds of thousands of Jews during the war. This information is credited with a footnote to the work of American historian Richard C. Lukas. His works published several dozen years ago - although willingly cited by Polish nationalists - are full of misrepresentations and falsehoods and are not cited in serious scientific literature. Lukas's most important book is The Forgotten Holocaust in 1986, in which the author, without referring to materials from Polish, Israeli or German archives, tries to extend the concept of the Holocaust to include Poles. Today we call it the negativism of the Holocaust, and the reference to Lukas in 2020 is a misunderstanding. Already in 1987, David Engel (one of the greatest historians of the Holocaust) stated that his writing was based on distortion, distortion and inaccuracy (distortion, misrepresentation and innacuracy). But Wikipedia's "editors" know better and - to support the thesis of hundreds of thousands of Poles saving Jews - they send us to the 13th page of the book published by Lukas in 1989, "Wprost z ogogi: Poles remember the Holocaust" ("Out of the Inferno: Poles Remember the Holocaust "). This is a collection of several dozen memories made with an introduction by Lukas. It is in this introduction that we come across the revelations on which Wikipedia is based today: "Actually," one of my Polish interlocutors told me who, before his death, studied this subject - writes Lukas - "it is the number of Jews hiding in Poland who most of them helped Poles - she went in hundreds of thousands. Another reliable estimate estimates the number of Jews hid by Poles during the German occupation at 450,000. " In support of this absurd thesis, Lukas refers to a propaganda brochure published after March 1968 by Władysław Żarski-Zajdler, known for his historical confabulations. The English-language reader will also learn from this slogan that Richard C. Lukas estimates that up to 1,000,000 Poles were involved in helping [Jews], but some estimates say up to 3,000,000. There are as many as two references to this the 13th page of the work "Out of the Inferno: Poles Remember the Holocaust", which this time is presented as recent research, or "new research". Two words - two lies ... But we read further: It is estimated that tens of thousands of Poles were murdered by the Nazis for helping Jews, and 704 of them were posthumously awarded medals. Of course, informing about tens of thousands of Poles murdered by the Nazis for helping Jews, the "editors" refer us - once again - to page 13 of Lukas's work.

Need of GA reassessment?
Considering the above critique by an expert historian, this article may merit a GA reassessment. Thoughts? --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:19, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I would agree that a GAR is needed; I edited the article briefly, i.e., and my impression was that the sourcing was generally poor. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:33, 7 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Some related revisions: . In addition to Lukas, I removed weasel phrasing such as "It is estimated..." etc. There were also issues of especially difficult and dangerous compared to other European countries under German occupation, given that capital punishment for helping Jews was instituted across the occupied Eastern Europe. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:06, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. There is no denying that Grabowski's work is newer, through I'd prefer to see a critique of Lukas in a peer review outlet rather than a newspaper, before I'd say it's a good idea to remove citations to his work(s) en masse from English Wikipedia. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:26, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * In re: Lukas, there was a discussion a while ago (not sure which Talk page) about claims that occupied Poland was the only country where death penalty for helping Jews was imposed. From that, I recall that Lukas subscribed to the same theory. I found this: "Poland was the only country where this was done" . The Lukas numbers and conclusions are quite dated and not in line with contemporary scholarship. If there are recent sources attesting to the reputation of these works, it would be good to know about them. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:03, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree he is not the newest, but re this particular claim, we should simply say that historians disagree. Unless his view is WP:FRINGE. From what I recall I think part of the problem re this particular claim is that the penalty was also used in former Polish territories then annexed to USSR then occupied by Germany; the point is some people say 'not only Poland but also Ukraine/Belarus!'. But it's splitting the hair. Anyway, my point is that AFAIK Lukas is generally reliable and should not be removed unless we have a source that clearly calls a particular claim of his obsolete (and even then we should just note that fact, unless the claim of him being obsolete is widely accepted) - in general attribution should be sufficient. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 01:06, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Kazimiera Żuławska
Can somone add Kazimiera Żuławska to the list? I am having diffculty in finding information on her heroism. Thanks, Thriley (talk) 23:38, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


 * @Thriley Which list? And if you are having difficulty finding sources, why should she be on that list? <sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:15, 5 November 2021 (UTC)