Talk:Polygamy/Archive 5

Greater Depth of Economic Aspects of Polygamy
I added a couple sentences to the end of the paragraph that mentioned David Friedman to explain the economic argument in favor of polygamy better. I don't think what I added was perfect, but I do think that the economic argument is important to include in any complete article about polygamy.

Dispute of TALK page about previous version
When people arrive at this TALK page, they need to know firsthand that there is a dispute going on. Buring it deeper in the TALK page amounts to an aggressive act of trying to hide it from new arrivals here. Nereocystis knows that I am in conversation with AMAs and seeking to resolve the issue. To continue to advance the "outline" idea on this TALK page here, while knowing that we are still in the process of finding resolution (and that I am conversing with AMAs) is another extremely aggressive act by Nereocystis. No action should be occurring until we can really get the problems solved.

I had posted this section at the top of this TALK page, but Nereocystis sought to hide it. Here is what Nereocystis said when they tried to bury this from the top of the page.

"There is a lot of dispute on the content of polygamy. Interested parties should look at the archives and at Requests for comment/Researcher99." "Please emphasize the text of the polygamy article on this page. Nereocystis 20:23, 2 September 2005 (UTC)" "I removed the NPOV which Researcher99 put on the talk page, since NPOV doesn't belong on a Talk page. Talk pages usually include a lot of POV in the process of making the article NPOV." I also removed the dubious tags from the polygamy rewrite. If someone doesn't like it, discuss it. Provide citations. It is a work in progress, of course there are changes to be made. Nereocystis 20:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

As a matter of valid information, this has been restored to the top, as the dispute continues to go forward to a hopeful resolution. Researcher 17:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Researcher, your edit summary, "placed back at top where it belongs" is your opinion only. For you to suggest that only you can decide what is appropriate for the talk page is inappropriate. When Nereocystis moved the NPOV tags you should have discussed it on the talk page, not reverting it as if you owned the talk page. Also, your last comment "No action should be occurring until we can really get the problems solved" is again, your opinion, and again, inappropriate.  Other editors may continue to contribute to the Polygamy/Rewrite, talk page, and article as they see fit.  Kewp 18:54, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Researcher99 has decided against mediation again. I suggest that we ignore his postings while his RFC continues, unless they are about the article, and try to work on improvements to the article. It's going to be a painful process. Nereocystis 20:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Nereocystis, is it not better to stop the RfC that you began and so permit the article to be improved, the dispute be resolved and "not to get too far with Researcher" as you told me ? --Neigel von Teighen 21:33, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I have moved my response to Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Researcher99. Nereocystis 03:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Proof: Hiding Evidence of abuse form this TALK page
This entire TALK page is not valid, being the result of an unapproved takeover. We were in the middle of a previous dispute resolution and this TALK page wrongly got changed and directed without the approval of the two parties involved, Nereocystis and myself. The last valid version of this TALK page, before that hostile takeover, was on 14:24, 18 August 20.

When I tried to provide further evidence of all the attacks on this invalid TALK page here, Dunkelza immediately hid the evidence by removing it.

The fact that the hostile parties here want this illegitimate version of the TALK page to continue in its current invalid form, and going so far as to purposely prevent and hide the evidence of the abuse and dispute, is further proof of the abuse I am receiving and te illegitimacy of the current TALK page. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

As all know, I am in the process of selecting an AMA. All parties should cease their agendas here and await what happens with that. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * This Talk page does not exist for the purpose of discussing abuses to you or any other editor. The Talk:Polygamy page exists solely for the discussion of the content of the article Polygamy.  If you insist on inappropriately spamming multiple pages with your lamentations, I will continue to remove them.  I would like to point out that I did not touch your comments on the Requests_for_comment/Researcher99, because that is where your comments belonged.


 * If you sincerely believe that you are being abused, in spite of the evidence to the contrary, then I recommend that you follow the route taken by Nereocystis. Your complaints belong on THOSE sorts of pages, not the Talk pages of encyclopedic articles.  Talk_page_guidelines - Dunkelza 18:54 September 2, 2005 (EDT)

ALL DISCUSSION IN SUBHEADINGS BELOW THIS ONE ARE NOT LEGITIMATE
The discussion below occurred after an aggressive takeover that was not approved by all parties in the previous dispute. The last valid version of this TALK page, before the hostile takeover, was on 14:24, 18 August 20.  All participation on thse subheaded subtopics should cease untilthe larger issues of dispute are resolved. Researcher 19:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

As readers may see from the following, Nereocystis admits to the deceptive act of trying to bury the important notice for new arrivals, in order to make it appear as though anything on this current TALK page about the polygamy article has a valid basis, while we are in the minddle of an ongoing dispute resolution issue. Referring to ths abve section after they had buried it, Nereocystis admitted,

"[This was posted by Researcher99 at the top of the page, and refers to a discussion of the outline of the polygamy article. Nereocystis 20:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)]"

Once again, they have sought to hide the evidence so that they may give the false appearance of supposed legitimacy of this non-accepted version of the TALK pages that interrupted the resolution process. The only way to effectively and instantly alert new arrivalst this TALK page is by use of the NPOV tag. While it may be more usable for articles, it is still an essential tool for this current situation. To aggresively hide it is only to seek to prevent new Wikipedia users arriving here from being alerted as much as they really need to be. Researcher 17:29, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution
Researcher99 and Nereocystis have agreed to allow me (as an unoffical mediator) to guide them through a process that will hopefully end the dispute and provide an accurate and NPOV article on polygamy. See the archives for a history of the dispute. Uriah923 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I agreed to welcoming your help to the situation. Please understand that I definitely did not agree to this TALK page being archived until the confidence for proceeding to a resolution can occur.  There has been too much attempts in the past to hide the evidence of Nereocystis's past abuse.  Archiving simply hides their extreme abuse of me.  When they are ready to work WITH me in a WIN-WIN approach, then I would agree to that evidence of their abuses being removed.  As long as the NPOV tag is still there in the article, they are showing they are not even willing to have any good faith act. I did not and do not agree without good faith acts being demonstrated to show we are on the path to a WIN-WIN. Otherwise, nothing changes, and their abuse only continues, and you will have, probably unknowingly, enabled it.  I appreciate your desire to help, and I welcomed that if it is fair and not biased toward the bully abuser.  Archiving the evidence before the good faith act is performed by Nereocystis leaves me further abused here.  I repeat, I genuinely appreciate your help, but I need this rectified.  As I know you want me to be able to trust you (and I want to!), then if we can rectify that, then I will be ready to accept the archiving.  Thank you for understanding. Researcher 16:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

While I do not want you to feel abused, the past really has nothing to do with putting together a quality NPOV article. As I mentioned, I think it best to start with outlines. Quality content can be added to these and a preliminary article posted without a NPOV tag. I anticipate that will happen quickly after I receive your outlines. Uriah923 18:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, I have been very abused here - for months even, and I am very exhausted as I do not allow this kind of thing in my real life. So, past history is critical to understand or else we'll just be spinning our wheels and it will put the abuser on equality with their victim.  I know they think thay have not done so, but Nereocystis really has been extremely abusive and if that is not realized and changed, then it will only continue.   NPOV is my goal, but I can never get there because of their abuse.  I do not want us wasting our time. I am tired.  I would like to forget the past too and move ahead.  Unfortunately, Nereocystis has been so abusive and continues to have that aggressive "bad attitude," which means they are unwilling to work for a WIN-WIN with me. If Nereocystis is honestly so willing to "move ahead" without the article being changed while we do this, then they equally would be willing to let us go forward by using the Wikipedia Guidelines of first RESTORING the controversial article back to the TRUE STATUS QUO of March 31 while we do this process.  But because they are the ones being allowed to have aggressively destroyed the article, and to then let it sit in that destroyed condition while we do this, of course> they are "willing" to pretend they want the past forgotten.   But that is not right.  It allows the abuser to get away with it and asks the victim of the abuse to continue to endure the destruction and abuse as if it never happened. If we are to have any honest hope of going forward, there has to be fairness, an obedience to Wikipedia Guidelines, and an end to the abuse. Since they are "willing" to let the article sit while we do this, then let's do so from the TRUE STATUS QUO position of March 31, before they began destroying the article.   They know that I have been saying that from the very beginning, so this is not something "new" that I am saying here.  The TRUE STATUS QUO is the requirement of the  Wikipedia Guidelines for controversial topics like this one.  But would Nereocystis then be so willing to move forward while the article sits in that TRUE STATUS QUO way while we do this?  Most likely not.  But that is exactly what this is expecting me to accept in the reverse if we do not follow those Wikipedia Guidelines, as I am the one who has been extremely abused here and the article is loaded with ther destructions.  Please, let us simplfiy and do things rightly.  I do not want any more battles.  I am so very tired of it all.  I  never have these battles with people.   I don't believe in such immature dysfunction.  That's why I have come to sometimes detest the Wikipedia experience for not preventing all this should-never-be-allowed abuse and their just looking the other way.  But I have to keep this issue from allowing Nereocystis to chase me (or anyone) away with their abuse, and from the article being even further destroyed with their destructions.  If Nereocystis is not willing to get rid of that "bad attitude" toward me, and to not allow any hope for a true GIVE-GIVE, then any form of outlining re-write is not going to succeed.  I want resolution to succeed.  But if we go forward in this latest way which I did not yet fully agree, then unless the article is restored to TRUE STATUS QUO, then the past history shows that Nereocystis will simply exploit this latest opportunity to routinely "disagree," "deny," or overall prevent any new article from being completed on purpose.  After all, by their preventing that resolution from succeeding, it will allow them to keep the article in its current destroyed version.  That's why the TRUE STATUS QUO should occur first, if this has any chance of being fair.  If Nereocystis can accept that, then that will be a sign of good faith that they really do want to remove the "bad attidude" and to actually work with me for a WIN-WIN.  I genuinely hope that, when I come back next week, I will be able to see some fairness and good things things going on here, including from Nereocystis.  Researcher 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Addressing how you have been harmed will not bring us any closer to a quality, non-disputed, NPOV article. That is my only goal. One way to do that would be to dig through the volumes of bickering between you two in an attempt to locate a status quo. However, due to the insane amount of edits and discussing, that way is painful and unnecessarily complicated. A much more effective way is to start CLEAN (which is fair to all involved). If we can avoid worrying about the past, this will progress much more quickly to what we all want (quality, non-disputed, NPOV article). Uriah923 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I was so hoping that when I got back, that I would see at least on example of your listening to me and my concerns.  To my disappointment, I see nothing from you at all.  Did you know that?   Uriah923, do you realize that you run right over me?  I cautiously welcomed help in general, but I did not authorize hiding the evidence of Nereocystis's abuse in TALK.  Yet, you jumped on it with extreme quickness and removed it anyway.  I welcomed your input but did not authorize a full-blown re-write from a blank canvas with Nereocystis who does not even know this topic.  The reason that the past matters is that unless Nereocystis stops the abuse and stops running over my proven expertise, no agreement in real NPOV will ever be really achieved anyway.  You will have wasted your time, our time, my time, and the article will only be in even worse shape than before.  I am sure you do not want that.  There really is no need to go searching for the TRUE STATUUS QUO. It is easily available, and I have been calling for it since April.   It makes absolutely no sense to me that we should let some topical newby such as Nereocystis, who has proven they do not know this topic, be allowed to create some new outline for the article. So, if your genuinely interested in following Wikipedia guidelines of TRUE STATUS QUO, then we simply use the March 31, 2005 version, and start from there.  But if not, then it seems that I am the only one who values the Wikipedia Guidelines, and that I will not be allowed to be treated fairly in any of this - at least until my AMA is ready to help.  I really do ask that you understand, for us to achieve success in real NPOV here, the abuse has got be addressed and I really need you to show that you are capable of listening to me.  I would appreciate that very much.  Thank you.  (I have just run out of time for more posting at this moment, so I will return tomorrow.)  Researcher 20:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

If by 'run over' you mean I have disregarded your arguments, that is true. I disregarded arguments from all parties because they were getting everyone nowhere. Starting from a blank canvas will allow all to see that ONLY valid, source-backed, NPOV material has been added. It will allow all, both self-avowed experts and those who are only interested, to contribute under the same criteria - that they provide NPOV, valid and note-worthy sources for the material contributed. There is absolutely no reason to address any alleged past abuse as it would only serve to soothe your wounds - not to produce a quality article.

If you refuse to participate, then there is no chance of any resolution.Uriah923 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You are misunderstanding the point. We will not successfully get anywhere unless the abuse stops.  Today we have another example of proof.  I wanted to post here today, but instead, Nereocystis had once again forced me into having to disprove their abusive ideas.  Please see the Nereocystis's double-standard post I was forced to have to make today at the group marriage article's TALK page.  That took so much time to write that, to respond to that abuse, that it prevented me from any time in posting more on this.  That is just one of the ways in which Nereocystis abuses me and keeps anything from actually getting done.  This is not about me not wanting to participate.  This is about my being abused and prevented at every step of the way.   As long as the abuse is allowed and not addressed, it will keep us from moving forward no matter what we do.  I have now run out of time to add anything more.  I will try to get back tomorrow. Researcher 20:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Your point is that the 'abuse' must stop before we can continue. I agree that if someone was abusing you rather than participating then it would be hindering our progress.  That has not happened.  The only thing holding us back at present is the lack of an outline from you.  Uriah923 21:15, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that I have seen no abuse on either Talk page, and would rather that Researcher99 focus on providing an outline and NPOV citations (NOT limited to "Christian Polygamy") for his input. I would also like to suggest locking the group marriage, polygyny, and polyandry pages and restricting commentary to this forum until this dispute is resolved.  That way energy can be focused, and we can go through the articles one at a time.  Dunkelza 19:51, 25 August 2005 (EDT)


 * I agree with Dunkelza. I screwed up by continuing to discuss items on the group marriage page while we are trying work on compromise here. I don't know whether we need a real lock, or an informal agreement to not edit. Nereocystis 00:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It is offensive to me that some now try to deny the abuse, as Dunkelza is now trying to assert without really investigating all the archives back to April. Also, it was totally abusive for Nereocystis to make the attack on the group marriage TALK page that forced me into spending my time on that rather than being able to post here yesterday.  Their subsequent attack replying to my post yesterday was even more abusive.  The long-term problem with Nereocystis is that I am constantly being run over, as if all the time I spent trying to explain to others was all in vain.  They are advancing purposely hostile POVs in trying to say things which things do not say.  (Now that you have shown your willingness to run over me too, Nereocystis has begun again to try to re-assert their pure propaganda POV agenda of the underage issue.)  Being run over all of these months is now what adds further concern to me now most of all about your arrival here, Uriah923.  When you first offered to help, I never said that I supported your aggressive takeover of this article resolution issue or of the hiding of the past abuses by Nereocystis by archiving.  But you did so very aggressively, despite what I said.  That showed me you are not able to listen.  Like Nereocystis, you act aggressively and then run over me as if I am the hindrance. Now you accuse me of stopping the resolution when I never yet authorized your idea, although I have been trying to see if you will be neutral enough to let me accept it.  You need to understand that my reply to you last week was simply a yellow light, a friendly welcome with the oncoming red light behind it.  Instead, you ignored my friendly but yellow light, and just floored the gas, completely running over me.  When I asked you to not empower the abuser, you insisted on only empowering them, rather than listen to me there either.  Please.  Listen.  One of the greatest problems with the abuser Nereocystis is that they deliberately overwhelm with "issues" in order to prevent the article from actually becoming NPOV.  Before you arrived, we were almost about to at least address only one issue at a time.  But now your idea of re-writing an entire article is only going to further empower that overwhelming tactic of Nereocystis.  I do not have time to battle so many fronts.  I don't even want to battle.  That's why I have been waiting for my AMA.   That's why I offered a true NPOV proposed solution to the polygamy issue on the group marriage TALK  pages today, "The true NPOV solution to Polygamy question about Group Marriage." As well, as you have now concerned me enough to see that you are currently just as willing to run over me as Nereocystis constantly does, you have given me no reason to know you won't do that with the article too.   I admit, I am very concerned that the minute I post another yellow light with the outline you request, you will then floor the gas, run over me again, and then use that to destroy the article before I accept it.   That is exactly what Nereocystis is practically salivating for you to do.   Then they will be able to pertpetually obfuscate and keep the article from ever being resolved. Please.  You have to listen or you force me to consider what you did this TALK page last week was unapproved vandalism.  It is not my intent to rv it back to last week so that the original resolution discussion can recur.  But maybe that's what will need to be done.  You, yourself, have said your offer requires my support. I have never given you that yet. I could be willing to do so, but you have to prove that you are not here to help and copy Nereocystis in running me over the same way they do.  I am tired.  I am tired of being bullied.  Plase check out that post I made today in group marriage TALK, titled, "The true NPOV solution to Polygamy question about Group Marriage."  It shows that I really am dedicated to true NPOV and valid solutions.  I do not agree to ignoring that post either, as it is a perfect NPOV solution which easily solves that issue immediately.  Dodging it is only the intent to further attack me and run over me yet again.  it is so easy and needs no battle.  It solves the problem in the most NPOV way, which shows that I really am dedicated to that.  Please.  I simply have to be treated with respect and not being run over.   When you can show you will listen, I will be glad to be more open.  I hope you can understand.  Thanks.  Researcher 18:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I understand that you have been involved in a long dispute that has offended you. I also understand that you think you think you have the answer as far as resolution.  However, there is more than one party involved here and, therefore, I have presented a way to resolve the conflict in an unbiased fashion.  I've explained this many times and asked you to forget the past and participate in creating a quality, source-backed, NPOV article.  Until you are unwilling to do so, I will leave you to wait for official help.  Uriah923 18:59, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It would be my hope that you had done that, Uriah923. Unfortunately, and maybe without knowing it, you have offered only to assist and justify Nereocystis's bullying.   All I want is true unbiased treatment, but you have, so far, only offered a biased one-side-win for Nereocystis.  Just moments ago, Nereocystis proved again how much of a bully they are, unwilling to work with any real NPOV solution.  Today, I had given them an easy way to let us start with some good faith.  They chose not to do it, as they always do in their bullying ways.  If they had acted on that little and very easy act of good faith today in the group marriage TALK pages, we would have been so much closer to perhaps getting started on your offer.  If that had happened and if you had demonstrated at least some evidence of listening to me without bias, my outline would have been prepared for you very quickly.  I just needed a little proof that all parties are genuinely committed to a good faith treatment of me and all seek a  WIN-WIN for me, for all  of us, for NPOV, in this too.  It is wrong to expect that any resolution will ever succeed unless I will also be treated respectfully and without bullying.  Without that, your offer to help was doomed before it started.  It is not really my intent to see you go or to rv the TALK pages back to last week's position of that previous form with my offer of resolution.  But if you are not able or willing to at least be unbiased toward me and to actually work with me for all of us to reach a WIN-WIN, and if you still decide you have to leave, then I guess we will have to get back to that former discussion of my offer of resolution until my official AMA help arrives.  It is so frustrating that Nereocystis has become so skilled in keeping people who drop by here from actually being able to help us get this resolved (or from exploiting other people's anti-polygamy biases who drop by as another way of to preventing resolution that happening).  I hope you'll stay, listen, and help with true unbias.  But if you must leave, I guess I do understand.  If that is the case, thank you for trying.  I really wish you could help, though.  Researcher 20:26, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * If you would simply provide an outline then the process could get started. If, at any point along the way, I demonstrate any sort of bias with regards to the article and its content, then feel free to withdraw.  Thus far, however, such has not been the case and your allegations of bias are unfounded.


 * My previous offer stands; provide an outline so we can begin or else I can do nothing. Uriah923 20:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * If they were unfounded, the NPOV tag would be removed from last week's discussion. I also do not yet have any reason for confidence that, once I provide the outline, I really would "be free to withdraw" and then get the situation back to prior to your arrival here.  So, if my views were unfounded, there would be at least some act of good faith somewhere for me to note.  Instead, I have no demonstration from you yet that you are willing to do anything but seem to empower Nereocystis to further leave the article destroyed.  So, here's a way for you to help see that about you.  If you would like to show me that you genuinely believe in NPOV and resolution, I will be waiting over the weekend to then see how you handle the obvious NPOV resolution I offered on the group marriage TALK page for one of the issues there, "The true NPOV solution to Polygamy question about Group Marriage."  That resolution there is a perfect example of total verified NPOV.  Yet Nereocystis has proven to be so abusive as the bully they are, they even refuse to even allow that very easy perfect NPOV resolution there.  Their behavior on that is a typical example of their abusive behavior and unwillingness to really resolve issues with NPOV.  You can help me have confidence in you that you really do care about NPOV and resolution without bias, and that you are not here only to empower Nereocystis.  To do that, please feel free to show me how you act in that case.  I welcome your proving to be unbiased in that obviously NPOV case.  Please take the weekend or a day or so more if you need to deal with that issue,  "The true NPOV solution to Polygamy question about Group Marriage."  I will take the weekend off and come back at the start of next week to see what you come up with.  If you prove to be as NPOV and unbiased as you self-avow, I am confident that your actions will reveal that there, and I will be glad to have more confidence in you.  At that point, we could be on the path to where I could be willing to place an outline as you request.   Of course, it will also be helpful if Nereocystis would now abandon their abusively bully behavior and instead put forth a good faith act in that case as well by doing the easy thing needed there.  A good faith act can go a long way toward helping resolving the issues.  Thanks again, Uriah923.  I look forward to seeing what you come up with when I get back at the start of the week.  Researcher 23:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, is Researcher99 going to submit an outline or not? So far I haven't seen anything except complaints and demands for special treatment.  I would like the outline submissions closed on time in accordance with the dispute resolution procedure.  Those willing to move forward should be able to do so.  Dunkelza 23:13, August 26 2005 (EDT)


 * Thanks, Uriah923, this looks like a good step. Let's concentrate on the structure of the article rather than the past history. Nereocystis 18:10, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Are we still on for resolution, or did Researcher99 withdraw? Nereocystis 21:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * As far as I'm concerned, we're still on. Researcher99 has a week to submit an outline, so I will give him until the 26th.  Hopefully, we will then be able to progress quickly towards at least a basic article that has been agreed on.  Uriah923 14:45, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Researcher99, if you would place some of your efforts into writing the outline, we can move forward. Stop worrying about everything else, and write the outline. Please. Nereocystis 23:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Starting the Article
I agree with Dunkelza. It was my impression that Researcher99 had until August 26 to finish his outline, which was yesterday. He has been given enough time to do this and our progress on this article should not be delayed any longer. I suggest that we focus our energy on fine-tuning Nereocystis' outline and begin work on rewriting the article. If Researcher99 doesn't want to give any valuable input and insists on rehashing old, perceived "abuses," then we should proceed without him.Kewp 12:03, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Top-level outline
The first thing I want from both Researcher99 and Nereocystis is a top-level outline of the ideal contents of the article. This should be brief and contain no text - only headings and maybe some sub-headings. As Researcher99 is going to be out of town, we will allow approximately a week for both of you to provide the outline. Uriah923 15:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you for removing the time pressure on me that way. Researcher 16:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * If I understand correctly, we skip discussion of disputes in these sections, and do not write, "I think section A needs to be completely rewritten, it is badly biased". I'll work on the outline soon. Of course, the structure is subject to change as time goes on.Nereocystis 18:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. After we have a solid, agreed upon foundation of what topics need to be covered and in what order we can move on to slowly add content that is NPOV and backed by valid references. Uriah923 18:39, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Uriah923, we really have to first start fair toward me here, or this is just another example of allowing Nereocystis the ability to abuse me again.  Asking me to start from the harmed position is NOT fair under any negotiating idea.  We must have a WIN-WIN, and I am only open to your help under the condition of being treated fairly for a WIN-WIN, not requioring me to start this from harmed position, while the abuser gets to get away with it again.  As I said before, I am awaiting my AMA. While I said I was glad for help, I did not agree to acting this quickly, especially without anything fair being demonstrated toward me yet.  I am hopeful that, when I get back next week, I might be able to see that you have found a way to genuinely bring fairness toward me is going to be a reality.  Researcher 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

This is not about anyone 'getting away with' anything or about anyone being 'harmed.' The only goal here is to improve the article. As the two of you have been unable to do this, I have offered to provide structure to facilitate it. Arguing over past hurts will only delay any progress. Uriah923 19:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I ask that you please understand that, not only did I not authorize the quick action and takeover approach that you took when I generally welcomed your general help, but I need to know that you are not out to set me up. If every action you have taken so far shows me that you do not listen to anything I say, then you prevent me from knowing that you are any more serious for NPOV than Nereocystis.  If NPOV is your genuine goal, then, really, you must listen to me.  Unfortunatley, I am still waiting for some evidence that shows me that you will listen to me and to my valid concerns as well.  If you could solve that, I would very much appreciate it.  Thanks.  I really do want the matter resolved, and am hopeful that you are willing to listen.  Researcher 20:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I have listened to and addressed each of your concerns. However, I am not going to give you preferential treatment. All parties will start on an equal footing and, as I mentioned in the above thread, will be given the same requirements for submitting content. If you are the expert you claim to be, and if Nereocystis is as uknowledgeable as you say he is, then this will work in your favor as you will be able to provide more valid, source-backed, NPOV material. Uriah923 21:14, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Nereocystis, could you please use proper thread format in your replies? Thanks.  Researcher 19:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I am very willing to stop the discussion on Group marriage, discuss only on the polygamy talk page. However, I want a clear agreement from Researcher that he is willing to proceed with the steps outlined by Uriah923. If so, please produce a sample outline. Nereocystis 20:56, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Where do we stand? After more than a week Researcher99 hasn't agreed to the plan outlined by Uriah923, but he hasn't disagreed either. I don't mind waiting for a little bit longer before giving up on an agreement, but I would like some indication that Researcher99 wants to reach a resolution. Please, Researcher99, state your agreement with the plan, or your rejection of the plan, in clear terms. Nereocystis 18:49, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I would like to continue the polygamy rewrite, even if Researcher99 does not participate. Is Dunkelza willing to try to lead us forward in the face of possible adversity? Perhaps Researcher99 will join us later, but we shouldn't depend upon it. Nereocystis 20:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Nereocystis's outline
See Polygamy/Rewrite for the latest version.

Here's my first draft of the outline.


 * Definition of polygamy (article header)
 * Forms of polygamy
 * Details under polygyny, polyandry, group marriage
 * Related terms
 * Details under polygamy
 * Polygamy worldwide - prevalence of polygamy geographically
 * Details under polygyny, polyandry, group marriage
 * Polygamy and religion - history and current status within different religions
 * Details under polygyny, polyandry, group marriage
 * Current status of civil polygamous marriage (formerly Legal situation) - legal status of polygamy in various locals
 * Details under polygamy
 * Current proponents and opponents - notable organizations/individuals fighting for or against polygamy
 * Details under polygamy
 * Polygamy in fiction - notable works of fiction that mention polygamy
 * Details under polygamy
 * See also
 * References
 * External links

Should Polygamy and religion be under polygamy worldwide, as it is at present. I initially moved it there. I'm not sure now.

I suggest merging "How polygamists find more spouses" into "Polygamy and religion". Each type of polygamy could be described.

I imagine "Current status of civil polygamous marriage" as being similar to Same-sex marriage. Nereocystis 20:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I suggest we keep only one copy of your outline and one copy of Researcher's outline (when it is posted) up as a working document. I trimmed down your outline to keep things simple at first.  I also added descriptions for some sections.  It should be noted, however, that my changes are procedural and not based on my opinion of the outline contents.  Feel free to modify the descriptions or add/delete sections, as it's your outline.  Uriah923 21:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

That sounds good. Simple means less room for argument before we need it. One copy is also a good idea. Nereocystis 21:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

You have a "Current Proponents and Opponents" section. Should we have a "Historical Proponents and Opponents" section as well, or maybe just merge them? I would also like to see a historical treatment in the "Polygamy Worldwide" section as well. Dunkelza 13:43, 21 August 2005 (EDT)


 * Actually, in reviewing some of the Talk archives, it seems that the outline you've presented may need to be expanded with subcategories. There seems to be an awful lot that people want to say, and the smaller format may not be sufficient.  This could be the source of some of Researcher99's complaints.  For instance, the underage-marriage issue, which is certainly a part of the history of polygamy, but which is not a facet of the general academic concept of polygamy.  I definitely think that the "Forms of Polygamy" section is going to require A TON of subsets, so that we are clearly separating plural marriage from general polygyny, and so on.
 * Dunkelza 14:06, 21 August 2005 (EDT)


 * I would disagree-It's unclear to me, even after having read Researcher99's numerous comments to the Talk archives, how underage-marriage is not "a facet of the general academic concept of polygamy."  In fact the structure of a polygamous society often requires that the males be older in order to reduce competition among them, while the women are generally much younger.  This seems to be an integral part of the issue from an anthropological stance. No matter how often Researcher99 claims that underage marriage is a NPOV digression from the topic at hand, it is readily obvious to an outside observer that he/she has a strong POV agenda to push. Kewp 04:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry if I was unclear. What I mean by this is that a discussion of underage-marriage issues belongs in the subcategories, not in the broad definitions.  For instance, while the marriage of very young women was a common trend in Mormon plural marriage, marriage below a culturally appropriate age isn't common throughout polygamous families in general.  I'm not saying don't include these kinds of things in the article, just that we need to be careful where things that are very strong pro/con are located, so that the overall article is NPOV.  Dunkelza 22:26, 22 August 2005 (EDT)

Originally, I had a number of subcategories. In the interest of an easy first step, Uriah923 removed the subcategories. Agreeing on the major categories may be difficult enough. Here is an earlier version. I removed "current" from "proponents and opponents". The category can be ordered historically, if need be.

"Forms of polygamy" currently just lists polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage. "Forms of polygamy" is a bad title here, though introducing the idea of polygyny, polyandry, group marriage, and possible gender neutral groups is important, since polygamy is often used as strictly polygyny. I'm troubled by having religion and worldwide as separate categories. I don't know what goes where. Perhaps these should be combined. Religion is often important to polygamy, but so is the country. Please make suggestions. I'll save under-age polygamy until the topics are better fleshed out. I don't know which articles it belongs in yet. Let's handle the outlines first, later will come the controversies. Nereocystis 04:38, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah. I can see how that would be important early on.  I do think that we break out the subcategories that we should be sure to include all of the specific forms that we can find citations for.  What this might mean is that under each subcategory (polygyny, etc.), we create a sub-subcategory for specific examples.  I think that it's really important, for instance, to differentiate Islamic polygyny from Mormon plural marriage and Native American polygyny.


 * I'd also like to see the religion piece kept separate from the general worldwide cultural discussion. While many forms of polygamy are driven clear religious imperatives, many are not.  This is especially true of polyandry and group marriage, which often seem to be adaptations to environmental factors.  Dunkelza 22:26, 22 August 2005 (EDT)

Let's try seperating religion from geography, and see what happens. There is a lot of cross-over. I would like one section to be very short, describing the 3 basic forms of heterosexual polygamy. A later section should split polygamy into sub-subcategories. I don't like the title "Related terms", but it is important to explain that polygamy is not identical to polyamory. Perhaps the definition of marriage and family needs to be tightened while we're at it, using anthropological definitions, and allowing modern variations on the theme. That may explain the differences between polyamory and polygamy more clearly. Nereocystis 17:18, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I would put the three basic forms in the first part (definition)- they have article pages of their own.  The "forms of" section should probably be where we break these out into classifications, giving only short definitions that tie into any available articles for them.  I DEFINITELY agree on clarifying the distinction between polyamory and polygamy! Dunkelza 19:54, 23 August 2005 (EDT)


 * How much should the polygamy and polygyny articles overlap? many of the examples on the current polygamy page are of polygyny for which there all ready exists a substantial article.  Kewp 15:04, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

That's a really good question. We could make polygamy an overview article with links to polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage covering most of the details. None of these issues covers the issue of marriage to more than one person, regardless of sex, such as suggested by I suppose that gets covered in polygamy, unless group marriage is willing to take it.

I see the following articles as strongly related:


 * Marriage
 * Monogamy
 * Polygamy
 * Polygyny
 * Polyandry
 * Group marriage

Can we cover all of the articles, marriage briefly, defining it with a standard anthropology definition; then hit monogamy; cover the types of polygamy under polygyny, polyandry, and group marriage, then fill in the details at polygamy again? Under polygamy we would have a synopsis of topics covered elsewhere, and more details in certain areas.

I split the outline above into the areas where I think the most details belongs. Many of the choices are arbitrary. The group marriage discussion started about the time Researcher99 and I tried resolving our differences. It was painful, as usual.

We can back out the outline changes if this is too confusing for now. Nereocystis 18:01, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think there should be only a little overlap. We may need to rework polygyny and polyandry and (possibly) group marriage as well once we've a better idea of the content.  It might make sense to put more of the specific details on the subpages, and to make sure that there are articles for major incarnations of polygamy as well (Islamic polygyny, Mormon plural marriage, Christian Polygamy, etc.).  Indeed, we might want to apply some form of this outline to all of the polygamy family pages, whatever we decide that they are.  Heck, a template might be cool. Dunkelza 11:43, August 27, 2005 (EDT)


 * Actually, now that I look at it, even the Marriage page needs a reworking, though I'm not ready to tackle THAT project at the moment. I think that it might be a good idea to build our outline, and/or template, to make it appropriate for the whole marriage article tree. Dunkelza 11:57, August 27, 2005 (EDT)

A template is an interesting idea. I don't know exactly what it would look like, but someone should try it.

Could we start with a definition of marriage. Murdock 1949 says:


 * The family is a social group characterized by common residence, economic cooperation, and reproduction.


 * The family is to be distinguished from marriage, which is a complex of customs centering upon the relationship between a sexually associating pair of adults within the family.

He later describes polygamous relationships of course. I can't quickly find a definition in his "Ethnographic Atlas", which is quite short. His definition of marriage doesn't mention gender, though his types of polygamy do mention gender quite specifically. A newer definition of marriage from anthropology would be good. For now, I would limit my changes to marriage to that definition. I prefer the indentation standard in Talk page guidelines, especially in a long series of back of forth. It prevents later conversations taking place in the far right. However, there is room for confusion with this indentation style as well. Nereocystis 16:41, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that we should skip the definition of "marriage" for now. I think that we can all agree that polygamy is a form of marriage, so we can fix that page later. :)  I think that the important thing is to find MODERN scientific definitions anthropology, sociology, zoology, etc. that we can reconcile with each other until we arrive at a unified definition. Actually, we should break out the outline into sections in the Talk page, with subsections for subtopics, so that each section can be discussed separately. Dunkelza 17:36, August 27 2005 (EDT)

This looks good so far. I agree with modern. I apologize for using an older definition, though so many of WP's references, and others as well led to this source. I do think that finding a definition of marriage helps to explain polygamy, for the anthropology and sociology sections. One or two sentences should be enough. Perhaps it doesn't need to be moved to the marriage article yet, but we need it for our purposes. Since any anthropological or sociological definition of polygamy has to refer to marriage, this won't cost us much. Nereocystis 17:21, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I filled in some information at the beginning of Dunkelza's outline. I hope this is the right direction. Nereocystis 03:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I suggest creating a page called Polygamy/Rewrite. It allows the page to appear as it will be. And we can get the number of "=" correct, and shows what the page will really look like.

I put an old anthropology definition in for polygamy. We do need to modernize, but this is all I have so far.

Where do we go from here? How long should we take? Do we move sections over as they are somewhat filled in? Nereocystis 17:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I created a page called Polygamy/Rewrite, which contains the latest version of the polygamy rewrite, before Researcher's changes. If he wants that participate, that's fine. Please add citations for additions. Nereocystis 20:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

NPOV tags
User:Nereocystis, it's rather useful to leave the NPOV tags while the dispute is ongoing. This is for making more comprehensive the current situation to any newcoming editor. --Neigel von Teighen 22:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * NPOV on a talk page doesn't seem useful. Discussion about a It includes a link to the talk page of the talk page, which doesn't exist.  There isn't a discussion on any page as to why it is NPOV. The tags referred to the entire discussion on the article, not to any particular section. If you really think that it is useful, I'm willing to put it back in.


 * I welcome your presence on this page. I hope that we can discuss the content of the article, rather than long diatribes about abuse from the past. The last few months have been very difficult. Nereocystis 23:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * If Researcher99 wants to join in a possible rewrite, he should feel free, preferably with your help, so that we can stay on topic. Mediation would also be fine with me. So far, Researcher99 has not responded to any of my suggestions for mediation or arbitration with standard wiki mediators. Nereocystis 23:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)


 * NPOV tags are put in the article iiself, as far as I know. Yes, it will be something 'agressive' to someone searching about the topic to find that the article is being disputed. The tag that is currently in the article doesn't shows which is the actual dispute so the reader could know.
 * I think mediation would be fine, but I must tell you that I'm Researcher's advocate (AMA, not an unofficial one), but, in case of mediation, I'll defend him but also try to get a solution civily. That's why I like the mediation idea rather than arbitration, because both parties can win when some mediates and puts some rationality in the dispute. Arbitration, in the other hand, involves a comfrontation between the parties and IMO, arbitrators should only hear cases that really are worth to have a 'judicial' resolution.
 * What do you think? Do we do a mediation? --Neigel von Teighen 02:00, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The only NPOV tags I removed were on the talk page. I realize that my earlier posting was unclear on this issue. I have revised it slightly.


 * I'm willing to try working with Researcher99's AMA first. I have encouraged Researcher99 to get an AMA for quite a while now.  My hope is that with an AMA, we can direct the discussion toward the article, and that you can advise Researcher99 on proper Wikipedia policy. Let's try a short while with just an AMA. If that doesn't work, we can move to mediation. If Researcher99's behavior improves, we can probably handle it without mediation.


 * Historically, I added the disputed tag in the article, along with a section called disputed. This is still available in Talk:Polygamy/Archive 3. This was archived to reduce the bloat on the talk page. My creation of the disputed section upset Researcher99, though he didn't respond on the talk page to my suggestions. After waiting a reasonable amount of time, I made the changes. I believe that Researcher99 wants to revert some of my changes back, though he hasn't explained why. Because of Researcher99's complaints, I haven't removed the tag.


 * Researcher99 mentioned Tom Green and group marriage as 2 topics for resolution in Talk:Polygamy/Archive 4. This attempt at resolution was stuck on a few points:
 * Researcher99 wants to defer to him as an expert in the topic of polygamy, which may mean that he doesn't need citations.
 * He wants to NPOV tag removed before we discuss the NPOV item of Christian polygamy. I was willing to do it briefly, with a short timeline.
 * Researcher99 also insisted on continuing to discuss the past, rather than the resolution, and continued attacking me. After nearly 2 weeks, the resolution was stuck, which was why I was willing to try outside help, from anyone.


 * My primary active problem is the section currently marked NPOV, which describes Christian polygamy. Talk:Polygamy/Archive 4 discusses this in details, but again we weren't able to reach a resolution. I made many suggestions for a rewrite. Researcher99 rejected all of them, and offered none in return.


 * I also want to reorganize the article a bit, and the proposed rewrite is moving in the right direction, but will take quite a while to complete. Nereocystis 15:25, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I'd like to include Researcher in the process before beginning to discuss. You should understand that I can't work alone nor as a mediator as I'm advocating Researcher. Obviously, I don't want to begin an edit war nor to do anything for getting this to Arbitration (which is the worst work I've ever done as an advocate, despite some user's think that we AMA only work to get some 'fun' in such processes).
 * The resolution you want to give to this dispute, as far as I understood it, includes me as a kind of mediator between you and Researcher, what is strictly incompatible according to both the AMA guidelines and the Mediation Committe. I suggested to go forward an official mediation, but now I have another better idea:

My proposal can be summarized as "to do everthing so this thing doesn't go into an Arbitration". Any comments? I'll tell Researcher about this. --Neigel von Teighen 19:03, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Stop the RfC against Researcher: It will, sooner or later, get into an obstacle in a mediation and in the dispute resolution as it has been considered by Researcher something very agressive that set him up (see my talk page).
 * 2) After that step, request a mediation. If you both agree that I should request it personally, I'll do it. In the mediation, as you surely know, I'll defend Researcher as that is my work.
 * 3) Parallel to the mediation, the dispute should be reported to an Request for comment, but not against someone: the article itself will be listed and new people will enter into the discussion with new ideas (for further dispute you may have, the RfC against users are totally useless as my experience tells me. Anytime a serious dispute begins, list the page in the RfC page).


 * You're right, we shouldn't go too far with Researcher99.


 * I'm not explaining myself well, and perhaps I'm not sure that I know what to expect from you. I'm hoping that you will help Researcher99 to explain the what he wants to change in a clear way. You may even encourage him to provide citations when he wants changes. I suspect that you can even make suggestions for how he can get write the Christian polygamy section without running into POV problems. I expect that you are more familiar with standard wikipedia policy than Researcher99 is, and that dealing with you and he together will be much better than dealing with him alone. For this reason, I suggest that we hold off on mediation for now. If we still have problems resolving the dispute, then we should try mediation. Give it a week or so and see whether we make progress. I expect to still disagree, but productively, and eventually reach agreement.


 * Perhaps I'm hoping for too much from you.


 * I don't want to stop the RfC against Researcher99. Researcher99 considers almost any edit to be an agressive act, see Talk:Polygamy/Archive 2. His behavior has been so bad over the past few months that something needs to be done about it. Editing on this article has come to a standstill because of him. Many outside people have offered opinions and help. Researcher99 has always disagreed, and usually calls them anti-polygamists, eventually driving them away.  If there is evidence that he improves, I am willing to consider dropping the RfC, but not until then. I think that Researcher99 could provide some useful information, but his energy needs to be better focused. I suspect that you will help him focus his energy in productive areas, rather than unproductive areas. The problem is that Researcher99 is rarely willing to discuss content. If he were willing to explain what he wants, we may be able to make progress. Talking about a mythical true status quo from the distant past does not help.


 * There was one item that I did put up for RFC quite a while ago, but it didn't get a response, under Requests for comment/Society and law. I just updated the link today to point to the archived discussion.


 * I understand that you can't commit to anything without Researcher99. Nereocystis 19:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I also removed dubious tags from the talk page. See Researcher99's latest version for a particularly bad faith edit, which is a reason I am not ready to remove the RfC. dubious and NPOV on the talk page. Comments at the top of the page, rather than the bottom, including comments above the archive links. Nereocystis 23:56, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I will explain my point of view with an experience I had when advocating a user who led on of the greatest and most absurd disputes in the whole Wikipedia's history, known as the Lincoln-Darwin dispute. The dispute itself consisted in whether the birthday coincidence between Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin should be included or not. My "client" was the main defender in including the fact in the article Charles Darwin and this led quickly into a very long edit war. Well, this user was very aggressive on his posts and this resulted in a 1 year ban, but some users of the other party also got a 3 months ban for a very implicit aggressivity against my work as advocate. My point is that we're only watching the "obvious" bad faith but not if there's a deeper one. Also, I'm very dubious of a Researcher's voluntary bad faith, I see, from the links you give me, that he's up set (obviously, he overreacted) and that he feels his rights aren't been respected. Anyway, I asked another advocate that's working for Researcher (User:Metasquares) about his opinion, only to be sure if I'm right. Thoughts, comments?
 * It seems that Researcher is a kind of Wikibreak... --Neigel von Teighen 23:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I understand what you are saying. Perhaps. I have tried to be nice, though I haven't always succeeded.


 * I do believe that Researcher99 is mostly upfront about his feelings. He is probably not a troll. I also think that he has a very interesting perspective on polygamy. It would be nice to explain this perspective in an NPOV manner.


 * In my best case scenario, there wouldn't be any bans, just a change in behavior. Both of us are a little nervous about the other's behavior. If Researcher99 had the equivalent of a mentor, whether formal or not, I would be very happy.  Both of us (and every one else who is interested) could try to reach agreement on many issues. I suspect that I would be calmer if I knew that someone was advising Researcher99. I want to see a real change in behavior, but I'm willing to give it another try. If there really is a change in behavior, I won't care about the RfC. Nereocystis 05:57, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that it would be useful to go through the disputed topics one by one, but first we would need a list of disputed topics. Researcher99 and I almost agreed to this, but perhaps needed someone to direct the discussion. We were stuck in a discussion of the past rather than the future. That, and the Researcher99's insistence that he is the expert on the topic of polygamy. Nereocystis 06:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Mediation
I'm not sure how this mediation thing works. As it is, it is impossible for anybody else to contribute to the Polygamy article without having to sift through paragraphs and pages of Researcher99's accusations and efforts to buy time. Is it the case that nothing further can be contributed to the article until this dispute, which has been going on for months, is resolved? This talk page is a mess, mostly because of Researcher99's increasingly frantic badgering of other contributers who came to the page genuinely interested in making this page better--their contributions are labeled as POV "anti-polygamy propaganda" , which is nothing but unsupported abuse. Is the RfC going forward? (I think it should, as Researcher99 has shown himself to be unable to work with and respect other editors) If there is a mediation, where will it take place? on the Talk:Polygamy page? Who will be included? New people who want to help with the page are effectively being scared away by the mammoth size of the talk page (mostly due to Researcher99's comments). There has to be something done about this, soon. Kewp 08:22, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Mediation requires that all parties agree. Researcher99 has so far failed to comment on my requests for mediation, except to call my requests vandalization of his user page. I added my previous requests for mediation to Requests for comment/Researcher99. I forgot to add that earlier. All parties should be involved, if we agree on an issue.


 * I agree that until Researcher99 demonstrates a willingness to work with other, the RfC should go on. He might have a change of heart. He has now found an WP:AMA. Otherwise, RfC takes a while, a few more comments are added. Perhaps Researcher99 follows the advice of the RfC. If not, the next step is  arbitration and banning. It would be better to have a polite resolution.


 * Remove personal attacks is a disputed guideline which allows removal of personal attacks, which probably includes accusations of anti-polygamy. I haven't felt comfortable with this in the past, and Researcher99 then adds more comments to the talk page about how these actions are abusive. Nereocystis 16:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Christianity & Islam
Due to the current attemps to resolve this hotly disputed article, I feel I should make this comment. I don't want to step on toes but I think it needs to be said. Ignoring for a minute that most people probably regard the Christianity bit at the end as extremely POV and too poorly written to merit inclusing in Wikipedia, most of these same arguments can be made for Islamic polygyny. For example, in a number of Islamic countries the husband is required to get the written permission of the current wife/ves before taking another one and in theory at least is not allowed to coerce the any of the wife/ves into accepting. Similarly as has been mentioned in the article, in many cases the rights of each wife is protected and the husband is supposed to be fair to each wife (although the interpretation of this varies). While in pratice, the rights of women in a number of Islamic countries may be limited, this is not always the case and in this is really a seperate issue. In fact, I'm sure most of the arguments can not only be made for Islamic polygyny but polygamy in many other religious and non-religious instances as well. Therefore, I fail to see how even if we decide to include the bit on Christian polygamy at the end it can be limited to Christianity... 60.234.141.76 21:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Please, step on some toes. Which section do you mean, Polygamy, or Polygamy?


 * I would like to see each country's laws mentioned, though it will take a while to do so. Yes, I consider the Christian polygamy section extremely POV. I think that Researcher99 and I (and others) will soon discuss this paragraph. Some Christian polygamists do not think that wives should be required to agree with future wives. This should also be mentioned, but will take some work doing so. Nereocystis 23:13, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Disputed
I'm conflicted about adding this section again. Some of us are in the middle of a rewrite. One of Researcher99's has pointed out that there is no longer a description of disputes in this section. I have added one of the worst of the incidents, which was referred to by. Perhaps more will be added. Perhaps we will continue with the rewrite. Nereocystis 23:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Polygamy
This section is badly POV. There are a few issues. Mormons consider themselves Christians. The phrase:
 * Most Christian polygamists are usually quite geographically separated from other like-minded believers.

implicitly excludes polygamous Mormon fundamentalists, who make up a large part of Christian polygamists, and often live in communities of other Mormon polygamists,

This sentence:
 * LoveNotForce.com sets the "standard of Christian Polygamy."

is also quite POV, suggesting that any other interpretation of Christian polygamy is inferior to this interpretation.

In addition, this section describes the teachings of truthbearer.org, which is a group or sect of Christian polygamists, the group that Researcher99 seems to be associated with. I'm not sure what the right word is for this group. Other non-Mormon Christian polygamists disagree with this group. http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM051-History.html describes some of the beliefs of other Christian polygamists. I'm not clear about how many people these web sites represent, but they consider themselves to be Christian polygamists, who disagree with the love-not-force concept. God's Free Men and Women also has a different take on Christian polygamy. Both of them were once associated, perhaps slightly, with truthbearer.org. Here's a possible rewrite


 * Most non-Mormon Christian polygamists are geographically separated from other Christian polygamists.


 * Truth Bearer, a Christian polygamist group, uses a standard which they call love-not-force (, should be in footnote). Husbands are not allowed to force polygamy on any current wife.  If "God truly calls" a husband to polygamy, then a husband must wait until "God truly calls" the wife to also embrace polygamy.  Christian polygamy does not promise rewards for engaging in polygamy.  This branch of Christian polygamy is based on the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, on the instructions in Ephesians 5:22-25.  Because Christian polygamy involves no religious "rewards" for polygamy, there is no pressure upon women to embrace it.  Truth Bearer polygamous families seek moral, Christian women.  A Truth Bearer polygamist wife is often a secularly-divorced Christian mother whose ex-husband abandoned her and the children.

Researcher99 previously responded to this suggestion at Talk:Polygamy/Archive 4, and objects to the rewrite, but did not give an alternative version. I have added this to RfCs Requests for comment/Religion and Requests for comment/Society and law. Nereocystis 23:02, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see this issue on the Requests for comment/Religion page. Did you make a mistake? thanks. Also, it seems like a discussion of how these other Christian polygamy groups, including God's Free Men and Women, differ from the truthbearer people would be appropriate. Kewp 06:57, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I made a mistake. I forgot to add the item to the religion page. It's there now. You're right that a discussion would be good. I only slightly understand. Researcher99 considers the other web sites to be single individuals, and not worthy of mention. I think that mentioning love-not-force almost requires the mention of a competing viewpoint, even if it were just one crazy loner. Clearly, love-not-force is implicitly referring to another believe on women's right to choose polygamy. Nereocystis 07:04, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Mediation
Hi,

I've requested mediation for the dispute ongoing here between Researcher99 and Nereocystis (See WP:RFM). Anyone interested in joining it, please report yourself to that page. Please, do it if you have been really involved in the dispute and not just because you want to be part of something "funny"; this is serious. Also, don't think on any kind of suckpuppetry --Neigel von Teighen 22:35, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I hope that anyone who is interested in the final content of the polygamy article will participate. Yes, this is serious; our goal is to write an article.


 * I assume that your reference to sock puppetry is a comment on Researcher99's belief that most of the people who are opposed to him is a sock puppet of mine. I do not have any sock puppets, and would prefer to keep these accusations where they belong. Nereocystis 01:00, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The mediation failed, at Requests for mediation/Researcher99 and Nereocystis. We're now on to arbitration at Requests for arbitration and Requests for arbitration. Perhaps we're reaching the end soon. Nereocystis 23:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * CORRECTION. Readers should note this correction. Despite the only one valid basis of the RfM being explained over seven times,  user Nereocystis still attempted to hijack that RfM, Requests for mediation/Researcher99 and Nereocystis.   By attempting that, they refused to allow the RfM to proceed in that only valid direction.  The AMA advocate, Neigel von Teighen, then filed the RfArb, Requests for arbitration.  Nereocystis's followup attempt to then file their own later version of RfArb is simply a vindictive copycat attempt to once again try to hijack an original request in order to prevent the real issues from being addressed.  By trying to list their copycat version as "first" here on this polygamy TALK page demonstrates Nereocystis's further attempt to hijack the process by subtly implying that their RfArb version is somehow the original and valid one, when it clearly is nothing more than a copycat version made after the fact.  The original and legitimate RfArb, as first filed by AMA advocate, Neigel von Teighen, is: Requests for arbitration.
 * (At the time of this post from me here, however, the Requests for arbitration page has been protected from editing to deal with vandalism there.)
 * - Researcher 20:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration on polygamy has been accepted
Requests for arbitration/Polygamy has been accepted; it is a merger of the two requests. A brief statement of the case would be appreciated at Requests for arbitration/Polygamy. Place evidence at Requests for arbitration/Polygamy/Evidence. From Fred Bauder's post at User talk:Nereocystis. Nereocystis 17:59, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Polygamy has indefinitely banned Researcher99 from edit articles related to polygamy. Now, we can move forward and decide what the polygamy article should look like. I will restore some of the small edits which Researcher99 opposed, adding comments in the talk page if it seems necessary. When time permits, I will look at some of the bigger issues. Thanks for your support during the last few months. Nereocystis 19:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Restored trigamy
I restored the definition of trigamy, since it is mentioned in the Oxford English Dictionary. I simplified the definition of bigamy. Please comment here if either change seems inappropriate. Nereocystis 00:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Why do we need to mention trigamy? It's merely a dictionary def., that should be obvious to anyone who knows English.--Prosfilaes 04:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I could go either way. Originally, trigamy was deleted because Researcher99 claimed that it wasn't a word. It's possible that I overreacted and restored it because it is a word, whether or not it is necessary. On the other hand, why include bigamy, but not trigamy, though bigamy is much more common than trigamy. Does anyone else have opinions? Nereocystis 05:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't have a strong opinion but even though it is a dictionary definition I think that it is important to clarify the difference between polygamy and the subset of bigamy, so including trigamy might be a small interesting bit of information, no harm there.--Kewp (t) 15:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * oh, I was wondering what people felt about archiving the earlier contents of this talk page. It seems like we should start with a clean slate? --Kewp (t) 15:40, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Archiving sounds like a good idea. The possible rewrite could stay, at least for now. The accusations should be archived. I'll take a look at it in a few days if no one else does it. Nereocystis 21:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Mormon vs. Christian polygamy
I'm not entirely sure where to put this question, but would it be possible/acceptable to place the description of Mormon polygamy as a subheading under Christian polygamy? It seems like the current outlined format implies that Mormons are not Christians, although I know that the fact that Mormons do consider themselves Christians has been acknowledged on this Talk page. JordeeBec 18:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Mormons should go under the Christian section because they are Christians. The Mormon Church's official title is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS). The LDS church has Christ in its name, how can any doubt their Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.103.119 (talk) 14:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Contract of Marriage and Conditions therein
"From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e. the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled."[Sahih Bukhari, Book 50 “Conditions”, Hadith 3.882]

Al-Fataawa al-Kubra of Ibn Taymiyah, part 3, Kitaab al-Nikaah: “… these conditions and similar ones are valid according to the madhhab of Imaam Ahmad and other scholars among the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, such as ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’i and Ishaaq. According to the madhhab of Maalik, the condition states that if he marries another wife, (the first wife) has the choice of what to do, and this is a valid condition. The woman has the right to leave him in this case. This is similar to the idea in the Madhhab of Imaam Ahmad. The basis for this is the hadeeth narrated by (al-Bukhaari and Muslim) in al-Saheehayn from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): ‘The most deserving of conditions to be fulfilled are those by means of which sexual intercourse becomes permissible for you.’ ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: ‘Rights are in accordance with conditions.’ The Prophet dictated that the conditions which make sexual intercourse permissible are more deserving of fulfilment than others. This is the ruling on conditions of this nature.”

al-Mughni of Ibn Qudamah Vol. 9, Page 483: “(A condition) that which must be fulfill. It is a condition wherein its benefit and worth are returned. Examples are stipulations wherein he (vows) not to remove her from her residence or land, or that he will not travel with her (to foreign lands), or that he will not take another wife while with her. All of these are conditions that he would be bound to fulfilling (if he agreed to them before cohabitation). If he does not honour the stipulations she is granted the ability (and right) to annul the marriage (at her will). This is reported as being the opinion of: Umar bin al-Khattab, Sa‘d bin Abi Waqas, Mu‘awiyah, ‘Amr bin al- ‘Aas (radia Allahu ‘Anhom). It was also stated by: Shurayh, ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-Aziz, Jabir bin Zayd, Tawus, Al-Awza‘i and Ishaq…….As well we have named many Sahaba who validated these stipulations, and none from their generation / peers refuted them. Therefore we establish this as being Ijma‘ (consensual agreement by them all).”

taken from a useful article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Houri/continue

Excerpt from the Article:"The Marriage of a Muslim Woman in this World and Hereafter"
http://www.answering-christianity.com/pious_woman.pdf

The Creation of Eve

Ibn Kathir relates the following:

“Ibn Abbas and a group of the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) narrated that when Iblis (Satan) was sent out of Paradise and Adam was accommodated therein, Adam was alone in Paradise and did not have a partner from whom he could get tranquility. He slept for some time and when he woke up, he saw a woman whom Allah had created from his ribs. So he asked her, "Who are you? She replied, "A woman" He asked: "Why have you been created?" She said :"So that you could find tranquility in me." The angels, trying to find out the extent of his knowledge, asked him: "What is her name, O Adam?" He replied, "Eve". They asked: "Why was she so named?" He replied, " Because she was created from something living."” 3

"O Mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam) and from Him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women.” [Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa’(4):1]

God also said:

"It is he Who has created you from a single person (Adam) and then He created from him his wife (Eve), in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her." [ Qur’an, Surah Al-A’raf (7):189]

The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said in his last sermon:

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action….”4

It is very clear without any trace of ambiguity that God created only one Adam for Eve and only one Eve for Adam. Qur’an speaks in most of the cases by referring to the male figure, but in general sense it implies both the male and the female.

By the above mentioned verses of the Qur’an it can be easily derived that God has created one person as a mate of another. It is love, pleasure and tranquility within each other that the two mates are in need of. By contemplating on the evidence given above it can be deduced that a male is naturally inclined toward only one female and the female is naturally inclined toward only one male. If it were other than that, then God would have created many Adams for Eve or many Eves for Adam. To create one, two, three or even a thousand Adams for Eve or create one, two, three or even a thousand Eves for Adam would have been very easy for God. Instead God did not create anything like that.

"So set you your face towards the religion (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in khalqillah (the Religion of Allah), that is the straight religion, but most men know not."[Qur’an, Surah Ar-Rum(30):30]

It is reasonable enough to say that Adam and Eve were created in the Fitrah, which means pure natural inclinations. One of human natural inclinations is to have one mate and jealousy is another of the natural inclinations, both of which have the same root.5

Marriage of More Than One Wife of The Prophet

Some people wrongly have assumed that marrying more than one is part of the sunnah and should be followed no matter what. To attribute such claims we have to ask the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself what he (peace be upon him) has to say concerning such issue. Nevertheless before proceeding to that point, Imam Ibn al-Athir al_Jazaree (554-606 H) has said that the marriage of more than one wife of the prophet was to solve social problems of that time, when the social institutions were not stable enough to allow for other possibilities. This is in conformance with what God says:

And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you - [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course. [Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa’ (4):3]

It is important to read the two last expressions of this verse, “then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.” It is very crucial to note that if the natural inclination were of more than one wife, why would God warn against deviating from the right course, or making injustice. Said ibn Jubayr, Qatadah, and other successors of the Companions, imply the following meaning to the verse, “Just as you are, rightly, fearful of offending against the interests of orphans, you must apply the same careful con¬sideration to the interests and rights of the women whom you intend to marry." 6

It will become clear to the reader than the above allowance of marrying more than one is a solution to social circumstances and not a unrestricted right given to the man over woman. If misused, then it will lead to injustice as implied in the verse above. 7

Let’s suppose on a first instance that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging the marriage to more than one wife by practicing it himself. Then what a better example could have he (peace be upon him) found than to implement this lifestyle to his daughter Fatima. She should be an example for all the women of Islam. And the Prophet (peace be upon him) does the following when Fatima encountered such an occasion:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me." 8

What he (peace be upon him) does is totally the opposite what one would expect from a man who is supposed to encourage something that he himself practices. The Prophet (peace be upon him) understood it very well the inclination towards one mate and the hurtful feeling that would cause sharing the beloved companion with another. Therefore Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) gives two choices to Ali, either to remain married only to Fatima, or divorce her and marry the other woman. Ali chooses the first one.

It is important to notice that this nullifies the assumption that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging in any shape or form the practice of marrying more than one wife. Therefore reasons such as it is the unrestricted right of man or man is inclined towards having more than one wife is very far from the truth. It would imply that the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him), had no knowledge of that. On the other hand a very plausible explanation is that only social hardships allow for such circumstances in the best interest of the women as made clear by Imam Ibn al-Athir al-Jazaree and even that with certain restrictions that will be mentioned as we continue establishing the truth with proofs.

The Contract of Marriage

In Islam marriage is a civil contract between the two parties, the husband and the wife. In this contract both parties must agree to the conditions being put in it. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said: "From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e. the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled." 9

One of the conditions that can be put into the marriage contract is that the future wife requires from her future husband that he will not marry another woman while she is married to him. This condition is valid and does not contradict the verses of the Qur’an where God allows the man to marry more than one.10 The Qur’an lays out the maximum number of women that a man can be married at one time under the exception of fulfilling justice. Whether the man wants to get married or not, or get married to one or more, that is only up to the individual. Therefore a condition of marrying only one is within the bounds of what the Qur’an is allowing. Reading the Qur’an, the encouragement is towards marrying only one due to it being more just.

Moreover the validity of such condition has been agreed by ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, Sa’d bin Abee Wakas, Mu’aweeyah,‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas, Shurayh al-Qaadi, al-Oozaa’I, Ishaaq, ‘Umar bin ‘Abdul-Aziz and Jabeer bin Zayd.11,12

Therefore if such condition is valid, it cannot be claimed that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was encouraging the practice of marrying more than one wife, but at the same time allowing conditions from the part of a woman restricting her husband to not marry another while she is married to him. The jealousy is not a characteristic pertinent only to the male figure, but also to the female since we explained earlier that the natural inclinations of both are towards having one mate, not shared with others. This condition accedes with the hadith of Fatima being hurt if Ali married another woman and the Prophet (peace be upon him) giving Ali the option of divorcing his daughter in order to marry another.

Divorce on Part of the Wife

God says:

A divorce may be [revoked] twice, whereupon the marriage must either be resumed in fairness or dissolved in a goodly manner. And it is not lawful for you to take back anything of what you have ever given to your wives unless both [partners] have cause to fear that they may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God: hence, if you have cause to fear that the two may not be able to keep within the bounds set by God, there shall be no sin upon either of them for what the wife may give up [to her husband] in order to free herself. These are the bounds set by God; do not, then, transgress them: for they who transgress the bounds set by God-it is they, they who are evildoers! [Qur’an, Surah Al-Baqarah (2):229]

All authorities concur that this verse gives an unconditional right to the woman to divorce her husband. This is reinforced by the following hadith:

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The wife of Thabit bin Qais came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I do not blame Thabit for defects in his character or his religion, but I, being a Muslim, dislike to behave in un−Islamic manner (if I remain with him)." On that Allah's Apostle said (to her), "Will you give back the garden which your husband has given you (as Mahr)?" She said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said to Thabit, "O Thabit! Accept your garden, and divorce her once." 13

In accordance with this tradition, when the wife divorces the husband without him committing an offence against his marital obligations, the wife has to return the dower she received for marriage in order to dissolve the marriage as related in the verse above mentioned. This kind of divorce strengthens the point that marrying more than one wife is to solve social problems and at the same time the wife has the unrestricted right to divorce the husband at any time she sees it fit. This position leaves no room for oppression or hardship on the wife emotionally and gives restrains to the husband in order to not allow for abuses or fear the consequences of his actions.

The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said:

“Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission” 4

Student of Knowledge

Muhammad and polygamy, for his own daughter
in Polygamy#Islam it's written: 'Even though Muhammed was himself polygamous, he expressed disapproval of it for his own daughter, Fatima, and recognised that it would emotionally upset her. According to Bukhari (who mentions the hadith twice, Book 7, Number 115 and 152),


 * "I heard Allah’s apostle who was in the pulpit saying "The Bano-hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abi Taleb, but I do not give them permission and will not give permission unless Ali divorces my daughter because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see and what hurts her." '

this is a sunni viewpoint. by shi'ite(shia) viewpoint, this is certainly wrong. shi'ites believe that Imam Ali ibn Abitalib didn't want to marry anyone when Fatima(daughter of Muhammad) was alive. shi'ites believe that Bukhari is corrupted.


 * Would you mind putting four tildas (~) after your posts so we can see your name and when you edited? I doubt this is the Sunni view as a matter of fact because they are unlikely to claim that Muhammed thought polygamy was wrong for his daughter.  But it is a valid reading of the historical source material.  Which is a different claim.  Can you think of a way of making it clear what the Shia point of view is? Lao Wai 09:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The "Sahih Bukhari" book(which Muhammed's Idea about his daughter's polygamy is written) is a Hadith book of Sunni muslims, which Shia's don't believe it's correctness. Shia's believe that Muhammed said "Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see and what hurts her." in a different situation.Seraj 14:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Islam doesn't allow more than 4 wives, nor polyandry
in Polygamy it's written: "According to traditional Islamic law, a man may take up to four wives (however such limit is not found in the Qur'an, the Qur'an only stated 'place two and three and four', such statement was also used to describe the number of wings that angels have, and the wings of angels aren't limited to four wings) it's also written: "there's no verse in the Qur'an that allow or not allow a woman to have more than one husband at a time."

Muslims believe that Quran and Hadith are both the sources of Islamic Law.hadith has a special status citing sura Al-A'raf 157:
 * Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (Yusuf Ali translation)

This and other Qur'anic verses require Muslims to follow authentic hadith. even the rakaat's of Salah(whith is a pillar of the Five Pillars of Islam in Sunni Islam, and one of the ten Branches of Religion in Shi'a Islam) is not mentioned in Quran. So saying:
 * however such limit is not found in the Qur'an, the Qur'an only stated 'place two and three and four', such statement was also used to describe the number of wings that angels have, and the wings of angels aren't limited to four wings

and
 * there's no verse in the Qur'an that allow or not allow a woman to have more than one husband at a time.

will lead into readers' error. They will think that Quranic Islam allows more than 4 wives; but this is not true.

Slave Women!
http://www.geocities.com/masad02/004

 Surah Nisa(4): 3

'''And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you*- [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one - or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess.** This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course. '''


 * Lit., "whom your right hands possess" - i.e., from among the captives taken in a war in God's cause (regarding which see notes on surah 2, notes 167 and 168, and surah 8, note 72). It is obvious that the phrase "two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear...", etc. is a parenthetic clause relating to both the free women mentioned in the first part of the sentence and to female slaves - for both these nouns are governed by the imperative verb "marry". Thus, the whole sentence has this meaning: "Marry from among [other] women such as are lawful to you, or [from among] those whom you rightfully possess - [even] two, or three, or four: but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [only] one"- implying that, irrespective of whether they are free women or, originally, slaves, the number of wives must not exceed four. It was in this sense that Muhammad ‘Abduh understood the above verse (see Manar IV, 350). This view is, moreover, supported by verse 25 of this surah as well as by 24: 32, where marriage with female slaves is spoken of. Contrary to the popular view and the practice of many Muslims in the past centuries, neither the Qur’an nor the life-example of the Prophet provides any sanction for sexual intercourse without marriage.

As regards the permission to marry more than one wife (up to the maximum of four), it is so restricted by the condition, "if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then [marry only] one", as to make such plural marriages possible only in quite exceptional cases and under exceptional circumstances (see also the first clause of 24: 32 and the corresponding note). Still, one might ask why the same latitude has not been given to women as well; but the answer is simple. Notwithstanding the spiritual factor of love which influences the relations between man and woman, the determinant biological reason for the sexual urge is, in both sexes, procreation: and whereas a woman can, at one time, conceive a child from one man only and has to carry it for nine months before she can conceive another, a man can beget a child every time he cohabits with a woman. Thus, while nature would have been merely wasteful if it had produced a polygamous instinct in woman, man's polygamous inclination is biologically justified. It is, of course, obvious that the biological factor is only one - and by no means always the most important - of the aspects of marital love: none the less, it is a basic factor and, therefore, decisive in the institution of marriage as such. With the wisdom that always takes human nature fully into account, Islamic Law undertakes no more than the safeguarding of the socio-biological function of marriage (which includes also care of the progeny), allowing a man to have more than one wife ald not allowing a woman to have more than one husband at one time; while the spiritual problem of marriage, being imponderable and therefore outside the scope of law, is left to the discretion of the partners. In any event - since marriage in Islam is a purely civil contract - recourse to divorce is always open to either of the two partners. (Regarding the dissolution of a marriage at the wife's instance, see note on surah 2, verse 229.)

THE TWENTY-FOURTH SURAH

AN-NUR (THE LIGHT)

MARRIAGE

(32) AND [you ought to] marry the single from among you [I.e., from among the free members of the community, as is evident from the subsequent juxtaposition with slaves. (As most of the classical commentators point out, this is not an injunction but a recommendation to the community as a whole: hence my interpolation of the words, “you ought to”.) The term ayyim - of which ayama is the plural - signifies a person of either sex who has no spouse, irrespective of whether he or she has never been married or is divorced or widowed. Thus, the above verse expresses the idea - reiterated in many authentic sayings of the Prophet - that, from both the ethical and the social points of view, the married state is infinitely preferable to celibacy.] as well as such of your male and female slaves as are fit [for marriage]. [The term as-salihin connotes here both moral and physical fitness for marriage: i.e., the attainment of bodily and mental maturity as well as mutual affection between the man and the woman concerned. As in 4: 25, the above verse rules out all forms of concubinage and postulates marriage as the only basis of lawful sexual relations between a man and his female slave.] '''If they [whom you intend to marry] are poor, [let this not deter you;] God will grant them sufficiency out of His bounty - for God is infinite [in His mercy], all-knowing. (33) And as for those who are unable to marry, [I.e., because of poverty or because they cannot find a suitable mate, or for any other personal reason.] let them live in continence until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty, '''

DEED OF FREEDOM

(33) And if any of those whom you rightfully possess [Lit., “whom your right hands possess”, i.e., male or female slaves.] desire [to obtain] a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them: [The noun kitab is, in this context, an equivalent of kitabah or mukatabah (lit., “mutual agreement in writing”), a juridical term signifying a “deed of freedom” or “of manumission” executed on the basis of an agreement between a slave and his or her owner, to the effect that the slave undertakes to purchase his or her freedom for an equitable sum of money payable in installments before or after the manumission, or, alternatively, by rendering a clearly specified service or services to his or her owner. With this end in view, the slave is legally entitled to engage in any legitimate, gainful work or to obtain the necessary sum of money by any other lawful means (e.g., through a loan or a gift from a third person). In view of the imperative form of the verb katibuhum (“write it out for them”), the deed of manumission cannot be refused by the owner, the only pre-condition being an evidence - to be established, if necessary, by an unbiased arbiter or arbiters - of the slave’s good character and ability to fulfill his or her contractual obligations. The stipulation that such a deed of manumission may not he refused, and the establishment of precise juridical directives to this end, clearly indicates that Islamic Law has from its very beginning aimed at an abolition of slavery as a social institution, and that its prohibition in modern times constitutes no more than a final implementation of that aim. (See also next note, as well as note on 2: 177.) '''and give them [their share of the wealth of God which He has given you. ''' [According to all the authorities, this relates (a) to a moral obligation on the part of the owner to promote the slave’s efforts to obtain the necessary revenues by helping him or her to achieve an independent economic status and/or by remitting part of the agreed-upon compensation, and (b) to the obligation of the state treasury (bayt al-mal) to finance the freeing of slaves in accordance with the Quranic principle - enunciated in 9: 60 - that the revenues obtained through the obligatory tax called zakah are to be utilized, among other purposes, “for the freeing of human beings from bondage” (fi r-riqab, an expression explained in note on 2: 177). Hence, Zamakhshari holds that the above clause is addressed not merely to persons owning slaves but to the community as a whole - The expression “the wealth of God” contains an allusion to the principle that “God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions, promising them paradise in return” (9: 111) - implying that all of man’s possessions are vested in God, and that man is entitled to no more than their usufruct.]

PROHIBITION OF CONCUBINAGE

(33) And do not, in order to gain [Lit., “so that you might seek out” or “endeavour to attain to”.] some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; [Lit., “if they desire protection against unchastity (tahassun)”, i.e., through marriage (cf. the expression muhsanat as used in 4: 24). Most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the term fatayat (“maidens”) denotes here “slave-girls”: an assumption which is fully warranted by the context hence, the above verse reiterates the prohibition of concubinage by explicitly describing it as “whoredom” (bigha).]''' and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled [to submit in their helplessness], God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace! (34) AND, INDEED, from on high have We bestowed upon you messages clearly showing the truth, and [many] a lesson from [the stories of] those who have passed away before you, and [many] an admonition to the God-conscious. '''

Where did you find this:
 * ...each of those wives must have her own property, assets, and dowry, and as many slave women as he can afford.

This statement isn't true. Is there any resources for it?Seraj 15:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Islam has always permitted concubinage based upon the Qur'anic Surah 4, Verse 25.


 * There are many sites that address; just google Islam & concubinage.  Here are a few - http://www.islamiccenterofirvine.com/articles.php?action=show&id=42, http://www.mutah.com/mutahinbible.htm, http://www.al-islam.org/islaminthebible/20.htm


 * Muhammed had concubines too.

Reversion of Mormon changes
I just reverted a series of changes by 4.246.30.203, all of which sought to whitewash Mormon history. The original text was supported by a number of sources, including both the Krakaur and Brodie books, so it's not a lack of citation. It was altered because it was accurate but not flattering to Mormons. My guess is that these changes were by a Mormon who is embarassed by their religion's past. In short, the changes were contrary to verifiable sources and were POV. I consider the change to be vandalism.

While I'm here, I should explain a change I'm about to make. Currently, the Mormon section is separated from the Christian section by Islam. Since Mormonism is a form of Christianity, albeit a distinct one that is not in the mainstream, it should be grouped under, or at least near, Christianity. Alienus 08:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to write this, but I deleted a part that says "However Mormon doctrine also states that polygamy will be resumed in the "next life" so the manifesto is really only meant to be a temporary end to polygamy." It misleading to say that it is only to be a "temporary end" to polygamy. While it is honest to say that mormon doctrine (and practice) allows for polygamy in the afterlife (and I have left this in), it is just ridiculous to say that this means mormons only view the manifesto as a "temporary end to polygamy." They don't. And this passage doesn't convey the truth as well as the redundant passage I left in. Amulekii 20:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Polygamy in Hinduism
"Both polygamy and polyandry were practiced in ancient times among certain sections of the Hindu society. " Besides my knowledge, my immediate source of this statement was this very section. The section already says that:


 * Women were allowed to marry more than once (and/or have multiple husbands). See for example, Draupadi.
 * Certain sections were not allowed to be polygamous, and in effect only kings were polygamous. deeptrivia (talk) 13:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Other Religions
Could someone add Paganism, Neo-Paganism and Buddhism to the page, please? This would make it more complete.

Polygamy & Chinese culture
This section and the one following, recently added, strikes me as completely OR, with a big dose of POV. Could someone else take a look and see if I'm missing something? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 18:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a similar impression, so I left a note on Xaaan5’s talk page. Those sections are in need of copy editing too, but doing that would be rather difficult before there are some sources for them. Unless somebody adds citations, though, most of the text should probably be deleted (which would be a pity if it is factual). —xyzzyn 23:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Objection.


 * Maybe my English is not as good. Thanks for correcting the gramatical errors.
 * BUT please note that I am innocent until proof otherwise.


 * Why don't you people go search for polygyny or cross-border polygyny in Hong Kong Yahoo or Hong Kong Google?


 * You will see that there are Phd in universities who have been writing on the subjects. It is a research subject in universities.
 * Polygyny are almost a fact of life in Greater China region whether it is legalized or not.
 * 219.73.113.128 14:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Please read WP:V, especially this section. —xyzzyn 15:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Polygamy or specifically the polygyny in Greater China region has been a research topic in universities. How can I quote every pro and con and facts as it is currently underground activities but a fact of life? I include what is going on in Greater China region to enrich this entry. Please kindly understand. Xaaan5 15:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Xaan: Wikipedia is not original research. Either what goes in Wikipedia has already been researched by someone else or it shouldn't be here. If you're doing your own research, you should go publish it in a journal before doing so here. mg e kelly 15:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I am stating the essence of what have been researched in Greater China region. GO do some reading and search via Hong KOng or Taiwan Google / Yahoo. Xaaan5 15:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * xyzzy already told you: the burden of evidence is on you if you want to add this material. Otherwise it'll be removed sooner or later. BTW, do you read your messages? mg e kelly 15:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * So Wikipedia need to be full length dissertations and need phone-book volumn of proof? Here it is, some reference materials for those who are very ignorant of what is happening in Greater China Region. Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I cannot quote every dissertation or essays or media documentaries made on the topic in Greater China Region. Please follow the links and dig more if needed.Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ant/others/past1999.htm
 * http://www.cityu.edu.hk/fhs/ais/staff_graeme.htm
 * http://www.google.com.hk/search?hl=en&q=polygyny+China&btnG=Search&meta=
 * http://www.google.com.hk/search?hl=en&q=polygyny+cross-border+Hong+Kong&meta=
 * http://google.sina.com.hk/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?utf8=1&word=polygamy+China&lr=lang_zh-TW
 * http://hk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=polygamy+hong+kong&yp_r=0&tx=d&s=-ut&meta=rst=hk&ei=BIG5&n=10
 * http://hk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=polygyny+hong+kong&meta=rst=hk&ei=BIG5&n=10
 * http://tw.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=fp-tab-web-t&ei=UTF-8&p=polygamy+Taiwan
 * http://tw.search.yahoo.com/search?p=polygyny+Taiwan&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&x=wrt&meta=vc%3D
 * http://tw.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Taiwan+China+polygyny&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&x=wrt&meta=vc%3D


 * http://tw.search.yahoo.com/search?p=%E4%B8%80%E5%A4%AB%E5%A4%9A%E5%A6%BB&ei=UTF-8&fr=fp-tab-web-t&x=wrt&meta=vc%3D
 * http://hk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=%A4%40%A4%D2%A6h%A9d&meta=rst=hk&ei=BIG5&n=10
 * http://www.yahoo.com.cn/search?p=%D2%BB%B7%F2%B6%E0%C6%DE&ei=gbk&fr=fp-tab-web-ycn&meta=vl%3Dlang_zh-CN%26vl%3Dlang_zh-TW&pid=ysearch&source=ysearch_www_hp_button&Submit=%D1%C5%BB%A2%CB%D1%CB%F7

Xaaan5 16:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * http://google.sina.com.hk/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?utf8=1&word=%E4%B8%80%E5%A4%AB%E5%A4%9A%E5%A6%BB+%E4%B8%AD%E5%9C%8B+%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF&lr=lang_zh-TW
 * Dr Stanley Ho and polygyny http://google.sina.com.hk/cgi-bin/webpage_full.cgi?utf8=1&word=%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF+%E4%BD%95%E9%B4%BB%E7%87%8A+%E5%A6%BB&lr=lang_zh-TW

Xaan, regarding your comment about Wikipedia needing to book-length, that is exactly the opposite of what I was saying viz. that the book-length stuff has to be conducted outside of Wikipedia. You just need one reference for each claim you're making. Those links of yours are search results, not scholarly sources. mg e kelly 16:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Among the search results, there are links to academic researches! Anyway, what make it so difficult for you guys to accept that what is happening in the greater China region regarding polygamy/polygyny? The phenomenon is here. IF i have all the energy to do the proper dissertation citation, I shall be a PHD myself researching or educating students instead of having to answer the strange requests or to fight the opposition HERE. Why make sharing knowledge a guilty crime??! Xaaan5 16:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand policies here. It's not that anyone is opposed to your conclusions (which seem perfectly accurate to me) or to your research, but Wikipedia has particular rules for what may or may not be included in articles, and what we do and do not consider usable citations. The search results are not acceptable; we need to know, for each new claim you are adding to the article, exactly what (cite your sources) verifiable references you are using. It's nothing personal, by any means. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 16:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Xaaan5, nobody is disputing that poly* is going on in China. However, you must provide citations for what you want this article to say about it. This doesn’t mean that you have to find everything that has been written on the topic, but you should add enough citations to back up everything the article says on the topic. Otherwise, don’t expect the stuff without citations to stay for very long. As for your list of links, none of them are acceptable citations. As an example, here’s one that might be useful (but is not sufficient by far!):
 * I realise that doing stuff this way is more difficult than simply writing about it, but it’s how Wikipedia works. —xyzzyn 16:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I realise that doing stuff this way is more difficult than simply writing about it, but it’s how Wikipedia works. —xyzzyn 16:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * GEEEEssss. (1)Polygyny is a phenomenon and a fact of life.(2) It is forced underground and NOT YET relegalized. (3)How to give all the citations for every thing happening? SO, no one can ever write about the relationship between smoking cigarrettes and cancer until court case and medical fields have agreement?? (4) There have been universities doing researches, dissertations, documentaries on TV,etc, on polygyny in Greater China region. What else do I ñeed to put down before someone insist in removing what I wrote. (5) it is dreadful the way you folks discrediting what I try to add. SO dogmatic. I begin to feel sick. !!!! Xaaan5 17:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Nobody is arguing with or disputing your facts. People are disputing your presentation of sources. You've provided zero verifiability. It's nothing personal. Perhaps you might wish to consult with one of the more experienced Chinese contributors here who can explain in your own language what the problem is. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 17:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * You have not provided any citations at all. The closest thing was a link to the homepage of a researcher with a list of publications, some of which were relevant. Since this is a topic of sociology, you should cite papers from relevant scientific journals or relevant books. Alleging that research exists and/or providing links to search engines is not enough; citing concrete evidence for your edits is your responsibility, not someone else’s. As for the analogy, agreement between all research is not necessary, but if there is no agreement, citations for all sides of the debate should be provided. Please note that WP:V and WP:OR are rules, not recommendations. Follow them and we can talk about everything else. —xyzzyn 17:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Polygamy in Chinese Culture (again)
I’ve tried to remove redundant text and to tighten the wording of the section. The following is mostly for Xaaan5, but anyone else with the necessary knowledge (or, at least, mastery of the languages involved and ability to use Google) is also very strongly invited to help: Is that acceptable? —xyzzyn 19:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I’ve put where things need to be backed up. Note that they really need to be backed up and if they aren’t, they will be removed eventually.
 * I have also removed all links to search engine results, which are really completely useless.
 * Please try to add citations of sources where indicated (or where you consider it necessary). Do so by adding links, or by using the element, or some other appropriate method. In particular, these citations must be visible to the reader.
 * Also, if at all possible, cite English sources, because they are much easier to verify for most other editors and readers.
 * Regarding the length of the section, I suggest that you provide citations for what is there before adding content.
 * Regarding Confucius, the translation to which you have linked does not yield the interpretation in the article. Is there a published translation where multiple wives are explicitely mentioned? Cite that, please (or remove the statement).

So NoW I feel the strong presence of the academics and PHDs making this WIKIPEDIA. IF u want serious academic thing, why don't u just limit your membership to academics only? Removing all the facts & common knowledge and asking for detailed citation is a very dogmatic approach. It is so sad that people who cannot read Chinese and then just ignore and discredit what are there. AND, when I sow the seed, sooner or later some other people can add citation. Why people like XYZZY just can not wait to delete my writing? I feel so SICK. 220.246.154.17 03:09, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The phrase of「修身、齊家、治國、平天下」，is part of the Confucianism woven into the common knowledge or traditional wisdom already. 齊家 meaning managing one's home where there usually have more than one set of wives & kids. 齊人之福= the joy and blessing of having more than one marital partner.


 * Xaaan (if this is you), you are grossly contradicting yourself. If you claim there are academic references for what you say, it should be possible for you to link to them. Moreover, you continue to miss the point, which is that Wikipedia is not for academics (although I admit I am one!), not for people doing original research, but just for the elegant colation of information already in the public domain. mg e kelly 03:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I dislike being constantly targetted. (1) Why put all the burden of proof on me alone when Wikipedia can be a collaboration? Other people can expand or add citations. Why people are so much in a hurry to delete the knowledge of what other people are trying to share?? (2) I have added more citations. Stop being so dogmatic to ask for citation of every statement. Eg. Law is law and do I need to cite the law, too? Do all wikipedia user have to cite for everything they wrote? (3) What I wrote was a distillation of what I read in print, on screen, from news, from common knowledge, traditional wisdom, from www and TV documentary. How do you supposed I cite for every statement?!?!?!?!?! (4) Why won't hyperlinks to www resources be accepted as a proof of the existence of the phenomenon or things I stated?!?! As what I wrote have been repeatedly removed, I feel almost like being gang-raped. Xaaan5 05:29, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I welcome gramatic correction if needed but not removing blocks. If you are so insisting with the proper citation for every statement, just do your PHD back in the universities. OR get WIKIPEDIA to limit membership to Masters, Doctors, Professors & Professionals!!!! Stop pestering. I feel very very sick. Xaaan5 05:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Some quick definitions: dogma-a doctrine or belief that is held to be true without proof; proof-the establishment of a belief's truth through evidence; common knowledge-something many people believe to be true, not necessarily based on proof; traditonal wisdom-see common knowledge, add ten years. -Some newb with a dictionary

Post Xaaan5's edits
I take it no-one's really started cleaning up the material added by Xaaan5? A blanket issue concerning his edits which concerns me is that most of it seems to be about marital infidelity rather than polygamy per se. Some of it seems to me to be clearly irrelevant. For example, it stated that Mao had an extramarital lover, and seemed to imply that this was in contravention of anti-poylgamy laws. Unless there is a different concept of polygamy in China, this seems to be nonsense. However, if Taiwanese businessmen have second families in China, well that looks a lot more like polygamy. Still, there is a clear distinction between one's wife and one's mistress in law. What does anyone think? mg e kelly 15:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Having though about this for about 5 seconds, I think the stuff about having multiple sexual relationships should probably be under polyamory. mg e kelly 15:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * While Chinese polygamy has been banned sucessively since the 50s, and the modern form of cross-border affairs/polygamy is debatable, concubinage existed before the ban should belong to this article. --Kvasir 01:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

- Mgekelly. Multiple sexual relationships / secret affair = polygamy outside the law. The relationship of a man and a woman meet and stay overnight together from time to time, having sex, probably is a form of marraige without documentary or registration.

Because of the monogamy law, polygamy cannot exsist in name... and thus became secret affair. The nature of the relationship of most secret affair is a type of polygamy or polygyny. Don't be so dogmatic! If you put everything in strict sense and criteria, people looking for polygamy cannot find much information as long as polygamy is illegal in most of the countries.

As polygamy is the general term to cover many types of those relationships/marriage, it is appropriate to include various related facts and happenings under it. 220.246.134.138 14:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not dogmatism on my part. The English word 'polygamy' manifestly only covers actual marriages. This is indisputable. In European culture, where polygamy has been banned for thousands of years, people have always had mistresses and other extra-marital relationships. There is certainly an interesting article to be written on that, but it is not this one. A note suggesting that some kind of 'calndestine polygamy' still exists in China is fine - but if there are no clandestine marriage ceremonies, I would argue this isn't clandestine polygamy at all, but just what it is - people having kept women. mg e kelly 16:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There's alot of info to be found in the Chinese marriage article. There appears to be a different definition when it comes to polygamy in the criminal code. According to the article, in Chinese criminal law, married people who leave home to live with their lovers are considered to have committed bigamy. This I think is hard to prove and enforce but nevertheless that is the law. --Kvasir 01:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Mormon post-mortem polygamy.
Last I checked, a Mormon man can be sealed to multiple women in a number of cases (such as when his first wife dies and he remarries). This would mean that he would be married to both in the afterlife, which is post-mortem polygamy as part of celestial marriage. Am I mistaken? Al 21:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Legal In California?
Although polygamy is not recognized as "marriage", is the polygamous lifestyle legal or illegal in California? Just Curious. Zachorious 10:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

How could it not be? What would the law prohibit? Co-habitation or sexual relations? The Supreme Court has explicitly struck down laws that seek to prevent certain living arrangements; and I doubt the gov't has any inclination or authority to ban sex... W.Ross 13:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup / Unreferenced?
I'm new to this article, but it's not clear why these tags were added? I can't find any reason given for them being added, and this article has sources. Are we able to move the unreferenced tag to appropriate sub-sections, and/or use Fact tags? Mdwh 02:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Observations about External Links
Am I the only one who thinks the links section seems weird? Three things quickly jump out before my eyes.

Wouldn't it be better to just list only complete web-sites than one-page articles too? It's mostly that now, but there are a few links that are just articles. I won't make any changes on that yet. Any ideas?

A site called Hope for the Child Brides is listed in the "Neutral" section. With a name like that, the implication of its name shows it is not a neutral site. Does anyone else agree?

In the "Christian Polygamy" links section, the first listing is only a yahoo list with only about 100 members. Yahoolists are a dime a dozen. Does that really qualify to be listed. If so, does it qualify to be listed first?

I am choosing to make the first edit on this last one.

To find out more about this, I went through the history at Wikipedia. The change looks like it was made by the owner the yahoo list, but I do not know that directly. Originally, that section looked like this. In the next edit, the user added the yahoo group link for the first time. They placed it at the top of the section. They called their yahoo list a group. They moved the movement's larger web-sites down lower. Then they played with the truthbearer organization link. They removed the reference identifying it as an organization. Then they say that organization site offers its services for a fee. That aditional comment seems POV to me in contrast to their free yahoo list. Why was it necessary for that editor to say that while adding the yagoo list link at the top? That is what I find quesitonable. When I go to the [www.truthbearer.org] site, I see that their organization has been on NBC, Newsweek, the Washington Times, etc etc etc. Obviously, truthbearer is a real organization. It is well-known in the media. I also see from their site map that their organizaation's website is huge. There are lots of free information. It even has an entire book online. The site only calls for money are for paying members. That happens with any organization. That is not unusual. Looking at this, I think it break NPOV to imply that www.truthbearer.org is just a site charging money. Because it was changed by the person adding the free yahoo list, it looks to me like they were breaking NPOV there. In sum, the change looks like a tiny yahoo list owner added their link while trying to undercut the professional well-known organization.

So, in trying to be bold, I am going to put the links in the Christian Polygamy section back the way they were. I will move the free yahoo list down in that section. I don't think a free yahoo list should even be listed. Does anyone else think a tiny yahoo list should even qualify to be listed?

Mildy Amused 19:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * One thing I noticed is about four of the links are all under the direction of truthbearer.org. Can't we just size it down to one?


 * The Yahoo! group listing doesn't lend much either; I would agree w/ you.

To unsigned anonymous editor, I am glad we agree about the Yahoo list. I don't see what you mean about sites being under the direction of truthbearer.org. In the current version of the article, the first site educates Wikipedia readers about the Christian Polygamy movement itself. The second site listed is the leading organization that made the movement possible. From what I see, it is an organization of many families with a number of media reports about them. Everywhere you look about Christian Polygamy, that organization is all over the media. Nothing else compares to it. So any other websites referencing the organization just makes sense to me. If that's what you mean. I will look closer when I have time though. The third site lists out all arguments that people have about polygamy and the Bible. I think those first three sites provide unique branches of information. They serve Wikipedia readers looking for each specifc information in their research. The fourth site is a man's site. I think his site from England, although that doesn't mean anything. I think the fifth site should be removed because all its says is that it's coming soon. The sixth site is the Yahoo list which are always a dime a dozen. We already agree about that one. So, I do not think anything should be done to the first four sites in the Christian Polygamy links. I do think that the last two should be removed, though.

Mildy Amused 17:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * First, under 'Christian polygamy' 'Pro:', the first link actually has several links in the same section to different articles on that site. One is enough.  More would be spam or advocacy.


 * The section for TruthBearer also has several links in the same manner.


 * Finally, do a WhoIs on www.polygamy.net, www.truthbearer.org, et al. It appears to be the same group.  I think this is a pretty clear case of spamming.  They should be limited to one link from the one organization.  Such a link would be valuable, but not a half-dozen.


 * www.polygamy.net is also nothing but a 'coming soon' page.

3 forms/group marriage

 * Group marriage, or circle marriage, may exist in a number of forms, such as where more than one man and more than one woman form a single family unit, and all members of the marriage share parental responsibility for any children arising from the marriage. Another possible arrangement not thought to exist in reality, although occurring in science fiction (notably in Robert Heinlein's The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress), is the long-lived line marriage, in which deceased or departing spouses in the group are continually replaced by others, so that family property never becomes dispersed through inheritance.

It sounds to me like this is missing another key possible form (don't know whether it has ever occured) that is when there are more then one man and more then one woman but the women are only primarily or solely responsible for their own children (and not the children of other women). In modern days, it would also be much more easily possible for the men to be primarily or solely responsible for their own children (obvious, without DNA testing this would be more difficult although it would depend on the arrangement) Nil Einne 06:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Internet?

 * For polyandrists, there are no web-sites dedicated to providing ads for single men seeking polyandry or even for polyandrous families seeking such single men. The only online opportunities for such ads would likely be found on polyamory sites such as PolyMatchMaker.com.


 * However, the very different kinds of relationship-seekers who would advertise on such polyamory sites involve additional issues with which most polygynists would never be interested in nor comfortable with being associated. Mormon, Muslim, and Christian polygamists are all exclusively polygyny-based, and all typically do not involve bisexual issues. Even most secular polygamists tend to be polygynists too.

This is a bit confusing. As far as I can tell, polymatchmaker welcomes all poly-ies so to speak, whether polygynysts, polyandrists, polyarmourists or whatever so it isn't really a polyamory website. Also, the talk of bisexual issues seems confusing. While I appreciate that traditional polygyny-based cultures do not support or allow sexual contact between wives, from my understanding of polygyny the term it self simply describes a situation where there is one husband and multiple wives. Therefore, a living situation where the wives have sexual contact with each other would still be polygynist.

Perhaps the issue is not 'bisexuality' but that these sites welcome those interested in group marriages and polyandrous marriages and therefore these people would be present as well. However I would assume want each person wants would be clearly labelled and in any case are issues for all participants. A person interested in groups marriages we can presume would NOT be interested in someone interested in polyandrous or polygynys marriages. Similarly with someone interested in polyandrous relationships.

Nil Einne 06:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

International affairs
There is a brief statement in the article that polygamists may find it harder to obtain immigrant status, but what is the legal status of polygamists from countries where it is legal who visit countries such as the U.S.? Does the law recognize all, one, or none of them as wives for purposes of directing medical care, inheritance, suing for divorce, applying for citizenship, and so on? Are they regarded as violating a law when they are all in the U.S.? Mike Serfas 02:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There aren't many high-profile examples but in the UK there's a precedent for the government to ignore it in the case of visitors. If immigrants go on to naturalise, it seems only one spouse is considered legitimate and the others are not legally married. Which in the UK would leave them without automatic (or free) inheritance, automatic citizenship, or any grounds for divorce or settlement. Since all health care is free here that is theoretically unaffected as long as their own visas are in order. Sorry that this doesn't really answer the question (about the US).Leushenko 23:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

External links under Jewish Polygamy
Are all either broken, or to xtian sites, not jewish ones. Why was this reverted when I removed them? FiveRings 21:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Polygamy in Islam
I have deleted most of the text in this section as it is a) completely false and b) largely made up of long quotes from the Quran which b.1) are not in an encyclopedic style and b.2) have been selectively taken from that source so to further the author's point of view.

Basically the section was so misleading and point of view biased that in its current state it detracts from a factual article. I have flagged it with the "expert needed" tag so that someone who knows the laws and statistics in specific countries and who has more available time than I, can add precise - and hopefully this time - factual information. Canderra 02:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well! The question is that whether explanation should be according to practice in Muslim countries or through Islamic point of view, because Qur'an says which was written there already. But there are no two opinions that polygamy is widely practiced in Arabian countries. How much it is Islamic, that is another question.  TruthSpreader Talk 14:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh btw someone needs to edit the quote "it often occurs rarely" it sounds bad lol

I was the one who expanded the article which was deleted for no good reason. I have a few points that I take issue with:


 * The Quran verse was vital to the point and fully explained why polygamy is allowed in Islam.


 * The comments I made were not false, furthermore, on what authority do you say they were ??


 * I can provide a multitude of sources which agree with my comments. Also, the aim of the subsection was to provide more information on polygamy in Islam. Not on what polygamy in Islam is according to non-Muslim sources.

Palestine48 14:02, 15 October 2006
 * If the comments were not in encyclopaedia style then they should have been tagged as such or re-arranged to fit the encyclopaedia standard.

You have to mention the Prophets multiple wives. I mean, seriously. This is an article about the same subject. It is borth pertitent and relevant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.39.63.190 (talk • contribs)
 * Prophet's multipled wives have been discussed in Muhammad's marriages. As prophet was given special permission in Qur'an and which is not applicable to all Muslims, hence I don't think this is the appropriate article to discuss.  TruthSpreader reply 23:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing problems
The source is a general discussion of the one child policy and isn't related to the statement at all.

Unlike polygyny, polyandry is considered taboo. However, the One-Child Policy has been increasing the male to female ratio, which may force a revisiting of this attitude. 

Roadrunner 10:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The map is wrong
It excludes South Africa, Many christians zulu have more than one wife.--HalaTruth(ሐላቃህ) 14:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Any form, rather than a form
I intend to be bold and edit the lead to reflect that polygamy is not one form of marriage, but several. The edit will replace "a" with "any". I am aware that changing the second sentence of a lead paragraph on a controversial topic can cause a stir. Please believe my intention is to improve the article, not to offensively push any particular POV. If my edit offends someone, please explain why! Sdsds 05:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Great Learning
This is a rather unorthodox interpretation of the Great Learning

In Confucianism, the ability of a man to manage a family, which usually meant more than one wife and set of children, was emphasised as part of the steps of learning for personal growth in Daxue (Great Learning). Quoting Professor Xu who explained the Confucianism (大學之道)Quoting 徐醒民教授《儒學簡說》: 格物、致知、誠意、正心、修身、齊家、治國、平天下 which Zhu Xi had summarized from the book of Great Learning(Daxue). The 8 learning steps & use Text quote in Chinese with pronunciation Original text Daxue I. 4 & 5

Also, looking through the citations, they all seem to be summaries of the Great Learning, and they don't mention polygamy at all.

Roadrunner 03:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Calling Mormons "pseudo-Christian" is POV
The recent edit putting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints under a new "Pseudo-Christian Groups" section is, I believe, a breach of WP:NPOV. Even-handed discussion of whether Mormons are Christians would more properly belong in the article on Mormonism and Christianity. Richwales 05:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've removed this. --Xyzzyplugh 22:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Mariavite?
Why is there a link to the Mariavite article? Neither that article nor this asserts that the Mariavites have ever practiced polygamy. I did find one site that makes that asssertion,. If it's generally accepted as true, then fine; this page and the Mariavite page should say so. If it's disputed, then, again, the disputed allegation should be mentioned. If it's generally accepted as false, then there shouldn't be a link.