Talk:Polyvinyl chloride

Untitled
Under the physical properties, Young's modulus is listed in psi while the yield strength is in MPa. Is there a reason for one being metric and the other in US standard? I don't think it makes a difference either way (conversion isn't complicated) but unless there's a reason, it'd be nice to have it standardized one way or another. Just a thought/observation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.209.132.134 (talk) 05:31, 18 November 2012 (UTC) Yes, I have converted the yield strength to psi which then relates to all the other relevant physical properties StuPat (talk) 15:47, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Diagrams
''Sorry for the bad ASCII "drawings". I'll try and improve that in a while ;)''

Should mention phthalates controversy.

Lest this page be forever alternately edited by User:Daniel C. Boyer and User:Maximus Rex, adding and removing the "Pipe Dreams" link, I am (perhaps ill-advisedly) registering my opinion. Shimmin 20:29, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with MR that a material is not notable simply because it has been used as artistic medium; and PVC's notability is certainly not for its role as an artistic medium (unlike, say, paint or bronze). So I am disinclined towards noting PVC's use in art within the article.  If we were to list all the applications in which PVC is used at least as much as it is within art, we would have a very long list.
 * However, the "Pipe Dreams" link is an interesting 'squirty' link that is tangentially related to PVC. Someone looking for more information on PVC itself would not want to follow it, but someone merely browsing might very much want to follow it. It was not appropriate (as was originally the case) as the only "PVC-related" external link, but it might be appropriate asvolvement with the "Pipe Dreams" exhibition makes his repetitive restoration of the link rather akin to self-promotion, so even if the "Pipe Dreams" link belongs here, it is unclear that he should be the one to put it here.
 * It may be appropriate to conduct a straw poll to gain a more broad-based sense of whether the link belongs here.

I changed the atomic structure as none hydrogen ions are conventionally drawn at the bottom

1835 or 1838?
When did Henri whatsisname find white stuff floating in his flask of vinyl chloride? Anyone have references on the matter? There seems to be a disagreement between the websites I'm finding; hopefully someone will have an authoritative book on their shelf.--Joel 02:45, 29 September 2005 (UTC)    help

Lead in PVC?
I've heard reports of lead leaching from PVC.

Should these be added, and does anyone else have independant verification?

User:Orange & Viridian 2/15/06 11:11 am


 * Aside from the word "plumbing", I've never heard of a link between PVC and lead. Dioxin, maybe, but not lead. --Joel 19:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I have seen a warning poster about lead in some vinyl lunchboxes. Also, some electrical cords (probably insulated with PVC) have a warning label about lead, but I am not sure if the lead is in the plastic or as the metal in part of the wire.  Also, the cadmium page notes that some cadmium compounds are added to PVC.  Anyone have more info. on this? --24.16.148.75 23:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Lead is widely used as a stabilizer for the PVC insulation around romex, extension cords, Christmas lights and other electrical conductors. It is not well bound to the polymer and hence can be released in dust over time.

Lead is also used as a stabilizer in other PVC applications - Tom Lent 17:00, 21 September 2006 (UTC) (guess i should post this, eh?

Where are the good points of PVC?
I came to this page because I wanted to find information about the ways PVC is used. Instead, I found an article almost totally devoted to the (possible) health problems of PVC. This could well be useful, but I wish someone would explain why PVC is used before explaining why it shouldn't be used. -- Eric-Albert 23:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

PVC vs. UPVC & RPVC vs. FPVC
It should definantly be noted somewhere in this article that the plasticizers which may leach out of some PVC products is only used in UPVC (aka FPVC, flexible pvc, ect.) The purpose of the plasticizers is to make the PVC flexible, like polyethylene. Rigid PVC (used for cold water piping in many homes, construction etc.,) containes no plasticizers becuase it is a product that must remain rigid. With all the health concerns this article mentions it is really essential to make this designation.

I would change it myself but I am not sure where to put this information. It seems to me like it should be in the beggining of the article, but it could be placed at the start of the health concerns sub-topic. CoolMike 17:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

UPVC stands for "Unplasticized" PVC. It would help to distinguish PVC types with plasticizers and those without; I'm confused as it seems that unplasticized PVC is the type which does contain plasticizers which seems back to front. EdDavies 12:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you mentioned my earlyer error Ed. Somehow I had mixed up the two over the course of writting my comments. UPVC indeed stands for unplasticized PVC, and is the same as Rigid PVC, while FPVC stands for flexible PVC and is the type which contains the large amount of plasticizers. CoolMike 14:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I made a distinction in the article after the environmental point is mentioned.Stu42 17:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Uses of PVC
I have a classroom text used to introduce engineers to plastics engineering that lists many common products that are frequently made of PVC...Those folks who talked about uses of pvc, would you find this information usefull? Very few products are made out of only one material, so it would just be a general guide. CoolMike 17:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I came to Wikipedia for information on PVC in packaging (medical, food, household chemicals). Should I add this into the uses section? BrendanNZ 02:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

A section on it's use in vinyl records could be added? It may go to dispel some misconceptions about the "vinyl" abbreviation, and maybe educate them a bit more about the manufacturing process. X-Panda 19:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.95.184 (talk)

Recyclability
I work at a UPVC pipe fitting plant and all leftover / loose pieces are sent back to be reground and repressed, with the exception of those that have chemical defects. It seems to me that the biggest reason PVC (piping, at least) isn't recycled would be that once you install PVC plumbing, you rarely ever take it back out. At the very least, PVC can be recycled. Since the Greenpeace claim has been uncited for about a month now, i'll take it down in a few days if no one disagrees. SReynhout 20:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not so much unrecyclable as difficult to recycle I should think. Widespread infrastructure does not exist (in the US), and PVC is very much a different beast from HDPE/LDPE(, PS and PETE). Offhand I'd think PVC is closer to polycarbonate which is diffcult to recycle itself. --Belg4mit 03:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought the main problem was, that PVC was mixed up with other chemicals (plastifiers, etc.) to make it easy to handle. If yuo have one 'type' of PVC, there is no problem, but if you mix all the 'different PVC's' you get to something that is almost impossible to handle.  I think that is saw in NL a scheme where they ground old PVC (all sorts of it), and made it into a solid form, and used it for things that would not need a high-quality plastic, and also would not need replacement for the next so many years.  So, I do agree, it can be recycled, reword to 'difficult to recycle', and give some (preferably referenced) reasons?  --Dirk Beetstra T  C 07:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed statement that Greenpeace says that PVC is unrecyclable. The statement that PVC can not be recycled is rediculous. PVC is a thermoplastic, meaning when subjected to heat it softens, and can be reformed to make usefull products. It is a common practice to compound PVC in a twin screw extruder, then pellatize the PVC and use those pellets in a secondary extrusion opperation to make finished gooods. When getting information from a special interest group such as greenpeace one must take into account their bias towards advancing their own agenda. In this case the mis-information was so far from reality that I see no option but to delete the statement. Thanks. CoolMike 15:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The PVC industry in Europe have just completed their Vinyl 2010 voluntary commitment programme which commenced in 2000 and which included a committment to increase the yearly amount of recycled PVC by 200,000 Tonnes by 2010. In fact the amount of post consumer PVC waste collected and recycled last year was reported to be over 260,000 tonnes in their audited report.Substantiated claim StuPat (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

The follow on voluntary commitment, VinylPlus, gives the latest figures for 2014 as 481,018 tonnes of recycled PVC. StuPat (talk) 08:42, 11 May 2015 (UTC). By 2019 the annual tonnage had increased to 771,000 tonnes StuPat (talk) 09:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

the batch
as well i want to make a trial on a pvc cast for my sculpture project. is there any simple list of media that i can use to make a media such a media for vinyl toys that increase lately...

please send me an email if theres somebody know about it

mail me at budiadinugroho@yahoo.com

thx alot

Advantages and Disadvantages
This is pretty much standard on all the other polymer pages but I must of just lucked out. Can you guys please put an advantages and disadvantages section up, lots of school kids like myself will be looking at this and I want them to not have to go searching in other places like myself. 211.31.112.16 23:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Link to lists of cancer clusters
Is there any reason that a link to lists of cancer clusters should be at the see also section of this page? I didn't see any reference to cancer clusters in the article... Will delete it after a second search through the text on the grounds that it has no real connection to the article. Feedback would be appreciated. CoolMike 01:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Statistics
I am currently doing a lot of research intp PVC, and the statistics in this properties table seem to vary significantly to other sources; I have found that the properties of PVC do vary depending upon the small amount of plasticisers added, but who knows where these stated properties are taken from?

Can anybody provide information on it's price? I know it's a pretty cheap material, but how cheap actually is it? The prices of PVC are obviously company guarded secrets for people who have no intention to buy them. Although, after having trawled through the internet long enough i did indeed find some prices per barrel. (Can't remember where though, didn't have to look too hard on google) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.16.95.184 (talk) 18:34, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Blue Man Group?
I can find no reason for a link to the Blue Man Group in the See Also section. I'm removing it. It can be put back if it's supose to be there. I'm putting it here: * Blue Man Group SadanYagci 02:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

References for PVC properties
Could whoever put the properties of PVC on this page give the reference for where they took that information from? At the moment it looks like those numbers were pulled out of the air, excluding the last one, and I don't believe there's any policy that says physical and chemical properties shouldn't be properly referenced like any other highly specific detail in an article. 58.168.115.92 05:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is some confusion regarding the heat transfer coefficient. The correct units for the heat transfer coefficient is W/m2K. The correct units for the thermal conductivity is W/mK. Johnsarelli (talk) 10:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Yoga Mats
All this talk about good uses for PVC...does anyone realize that this is in the makeup of some Yoga Mats? After a period of time the mat begins to break down from the sweat and you need to throw it away. That can't be good for anything.

If someone could make me feel better about that I would appreciate that raedog@gmail.com. June 17,2007. Thanks Rae

Added a few links recently deleted, apparantly by accident
I just re-added a few of the links that hu12 just deleted. While I agree with his reason for deleting links (as per the wikipedia:NOT) he/she didn't seem to realize that many of the links under that sub-heading were not actually industry links. Of the 10 links or so that were deleted I re-added 3 or 4 of these links. I did this on the grounds that they contain good information, and also that the reason for deleting them did not make sense. Also, when all of those links were deleted all that remained were the environmentalist/health and safety links, making for a very biased section. Consider the fact that PVC is the 2nd most commonly used polymer today, and then look at how much of the text of this article is devoted to enflammatory remarks from biased editors. But I digress. I think the links have good information and show the pros and cons of the material as a whole. If anyone disagree's with my un-deletion please discuss it here on the talk page before deleting the links again. Despite the nasty tone of the article PVC is not a bad or dangerous material and it has bothered me for a long time that the article is so biased... CoolMike 19:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

PVC as a craft material
Please see this article; polymer clay. Just thought it could at least be mentioned briefly.I'd also quite like to see a section on working with PVC. It has a lot on health risks from finished products, and quite a nice little section on what it is used to make. I do agree that we don't want a section on PVC in art, but a bit on working with this material would be appriciated. I am a lemon 01:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
"Despite the high costs of PVC to the natural environment and human health, it is still widely used." is this a truly undisputed fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.44.145 (talk) 09:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it's a green lobby POV.GimpyFauxHippy (talk) 11:33, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I edited out an incorrect statement about he health and safety of PVC, of which the reference is an industrial dictionary, with a very well documented and supported statement about the health and safety of PVC in the environment, of which my reference was a peer-reviewed scientific journal. This is ridiculous. There is simply *not* a debate, anywhere on the overall impact of plastics and PVC on the environment (including the biosphere), so where does someone get off undoing my edit and saying 'it depends on your pov.' I can provide literally hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific journals documenting the damage potential to animals/environment/humans of PVC.EzPz (talk) 20:41, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It is the way things are stated in that portion of the article that is in dispute. It is not from a NPOV.JSR (talk) 20:44, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

What are you science qualifications? What about the source is not NPOV? I'm calling you out, you don't know anything at all about science and didn't read the article thus you are lying when you wrote something is in dispute. You couldn't have even mildly indulged in that paper in the 3 minutes it took you to revert it. The Marine Pollution Bulletin journal is a peer-reviewed journal published by Elsevier publishing, a well respected publisher in the scientific community. I'm going to put my correct change back in, and if you change it back we are going off the talk page and heading to the administrator, namely for the fact that you lied when you said a portion of the article is in dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ParksTrailer (talk • contribs) 20:59, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * My qualifications are probably better than yours. I didn't put the tag there, I am just keeping it there.  Please call in an administrator if you so choose.JSR (talk) 21:02, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Young's modulus
The quoted Young's modulus seems high - is there a reference supporting it?

MIT quotes Young's modulus for PVC at 1.5 GPa (= 1500 MPa). SAE quotes Young's modulus for acrylic at 1.7 GPa.

From hands-on experience, acrylic seems stiffer than PVC... 71.252.112.144 18:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Hemp
Hemp proponents make this claim: "Plastic plumbing pipe (PVC pipes) can be manufactured using renewable hemp cellulose as the chemical feed stocks, replacing non-renewable coal or petroleum based chemical feed stocks." Is this true? Bodhi.peace (talk) 16:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Potentially, yes. Hydrolysis of cellulose gives sugars, which, when fermented, give ethanol. Ethanol is dehydrated to give ethylene. Currently ethylene is produced from oil. Once there is ethylene, the process is the same as established: ethylene is chlorinated to ethylene dichloride, which is decomposed to give vinyl chloride. Vinyl chloride is polymerized to PVC. See for example . However, the real problem is the feedstock. Oil is cheaper than biomass, and there is simply not enough arable land on Earth to replace the current oil demand with biomass. Furthermore, hydrolysis of cellulose is a non-trivial reaction to commercialize. It is being currently investigated. .. Plus, there's another nontrivial problem that chlorine is produced by electrolysis (the chlor-alkali process). This requires massive amounts of electricity, which has its own environmental issues - it should be renewable, too. .. Also, I doubt that hemp fiber would be the ideal feedstock; sugar cane or similar plants can produce sugar directly. --Vuo (talk) 16:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Melting Temperature
The temperatures information, Glass temperature 87 °C, Melting point 80 °C , Vicat B1 85 °C, make no sense and seem to be contradictory. At the very least they need an explanation like what is meant by "melting point" because PVC does not melt at 80ºC in the sense that it becomes a running liquid. GS3 (talk) 11:48, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * PVC doesn't really have a single melting temperature because it doesn't actually melt completely; and the amount that melts kind-of depends. When PVC is "molten", in actuality it only contains so much melt that despite containing solid, it flows (another such mixture is wet concrete). --Vuo (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand how can Glass temperature be higher than Melting point temperature... Here in the table there is written PVC's glass temperature as 81 °C which is slightly different than 87 °C here. What's right? 85.207.232.12 (talk) 00:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Being replaced?
I {fact}'d this:
 * In recent years, PVC has been replacing traditional building materials such as wood, concrete and clay in many areas. The use of non-PVC materials has been on the rise due to concerns about the environmental and toxicity characteristics of PVC.

This is weasel wording. "Is being gradually replaced"? "Has been on the rise"? There should be a general policy on Wikipedia that such claims should not be added at all without citations. The problem is this: in reality, many things that "are being gradually replaced" aren't. It would be nice if all potential health effects would lead to a total ban, but this does not happen, or it happens in a geographically very limited way. Rather, phrasing like this is a value judgement, i.e. saying that it is so because it should be so. However, until there are enforced laws that actually effect limitations or bans, or (non-fringe) rejection on the world market, the phrase "is being gradually replaced" sounds reasonable but actually means nothing, and does not belong in a general encyclopedia. To counteract this 'citation needed', substantiate the simple claim that is made: it has significant toxicity and pollution effects and it is these effects that lead to governments and other decisionmakers imposing actual limitations of use, with suspect jumps in logic in italics. And don't just dig up some editorial from a webzine; the bare fact that someone expresses this opinion does not mean it is so. --Vuo (talk) 20:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Use in clothing
PVC is commonly used in clothing in the goth/punk/fetish subculture. I was surprised this wasn't mentioned, especially considering that Latex has it's own article about Latex clothing. Can we get something about that in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.24.220 (talk) 08:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Bisphenol A
Bisphenol A says that chemical is used in PVC, and there are health concerns about it leeching from polycarbonate. Are there corresponding concerns over Bisphenol A leeching from PVC? -- Beland (talk) 18:19, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * A quick googling revealed (Analytica Chimica Acta, Volume 539, Issues 1-2, 10 May 2005, Pages 41-47, doi:10.1016/j.aca.2005.03.051) that a single container tested leached bisphenol A (not Bisphenol A, it's not a brand name) an amount one order of magnitude higher than polycarbonates. That is an amount, not rate of leaching. Considering the small amount of additive bisphenol A in PVC vs. the quantitative amount - that hopefully mostly polymerizes - going into polycarbonate, the absolute rate may be higher for PVC. Not that surprising if it's as is in PVC and polymerized in polycarbonates. Another question is the interpretation of the result, because PVC doesn't have the same end uses as PC. Also, it may be that the opportunity cost is higher than replacing it. (That is, it may take hundreds of millions of dollars to replace it and theoretically save one or two lives, instead of thousands saved should the same sum be spent on e.g. water treatment.) --Vuo (talk) 19:46, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

In Europe bisphenol A has been eliminated in all PVC formulations for some time now (StuPat (talk) 10:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC))

hi
استخدامات بولس فينيل كلورايد

في الصناعات الانشائية لانابيب pvc التي تحيط الانابيب والاسلاك والقابلوات للوقاية من الرطوبة والتشوهات الميكانيكية والتاثيرات الكيمياوية ولنقل الغازات المضغوطة ولعزل الصفائح —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.205.180.4 (talk) 09:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Link in one of the references not working
There is a reference with a link to http://www.bsc.ca.gov/documents/PR07-02_final__pics.pdf which is not working. Please fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.128.221 (talk) 16:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Wizard191 (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Gramophone records?
Shouldn't gramophone records be mentioned in the Applications section. It was the world's defining physical medium for music from the 50s to the 80s, and possibly again in a few years time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.145.196 (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Dioxins section inconsistency
There are two seemingly contradictory statements at different ends of the "Dioxins" section: Also, scientific tests wherein municipal refuse containing several known concentrations of PVC was burned in a commercial-scale incinerator showed no relationship between the PVC content of the waste and dioxin emissions. The next largest sources of dioxin in the EPA inventory are medical and municipal waste incinerators. Studies have shown a clear correlation between dioxin formation and chloride content and indicate that PVC is a significant contributor to the formation of both dioxin and PCB in incinerators.

Both statements are cited, and I'm not surprised that there are conflicting citable references out there. However, the section should probably be rewritten to acknowledge this contradiction rather than making two incompatible assertions at different points in the text. --216.68.32.47 (talk) 21:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I've fixed this. Wizard191 (talk) 19:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Toxic PVC pipe fumes
What is the actual melting point of common PVC pipe? How does it behave around that temperature? What fumes are actually given off? Are they hazardous or toxic? To what extent?

On the internet, "everyone knows" that PVC pipe fumes are toxic, supposedly. But what reliable detailed sources are there for this claim?

A Georgia Tech grad student in 2000 claimed that the smoke was hazardous, but makes no specific claims about fumes from melting without smoke.

It seems that PVC is a thermoplastic without a definite melting point. There are many DIY projects based on heating and bending it. It may be reasonably safe to melt in small amounts outdoors with good ventilation. Or not?


 * http://www.wagerco.com/pvc/pvcPipeMSDS/pvcPipeMSDS.html

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET PVC PIPE
 * www.sandersonpipe.com/msds.pdf

Efforts of Overexposure There are no significant health hazards from vinyl compound at ambient temperatures. Inhalation of decomposition or combustion products, especially hydrogen chloride, will cause irritation of the respiratory tract, eyes and skin. Depending on the severity of exposure, physiological response will be coughing, pain and inflammation. Individuals with bronchial asthma and other types of chronic obstruction respiratory diseases may develop bronchial spasms if exposure is prolonged.

Ventilation Provide efficient exhaust at all operations creating fumes or vapor. Cutting or sawing, machining, heat welding, thermofolding and other operations involving heat sufficient to result in degradation should be examined to ensure adequate ventilation.

Since PVC is so common, and accidents do happen, how many people a year are actually harmed by PVC fumes and smoke?-96.237.8.162 (talk) 13:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

LCD Cleaning
This does not make sense. It seems out of context or poorly translated. "Its inherent ability to absorb particles from the LCD screen and its form fitting characteristics make it effective." Chris Murphy (talk) 19:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed it. It's doesn't make any sense and it's been marked as needing a citation for a long time. Wizard191 (talk) 20:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

martial arts
dont they use pvc in martial arts as well; I personaly use a gray electrical pvc pipe as a bo staff and white pvc for nunchucks as well. Could we find a source for the matial arts use of pvc? IF needed i could do that in my free time. 68.70.14.63 (talk) 18:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)unknown68.70.14.63 (talk) 18:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

What about PVC figures?
I dragged myself here after reading a few figure.fm posts worrying about the toxidity of the PVC in their display figures, and its use in millions upon billions of commercially-released dolls and statues in Japan isn't noted in the article at all. Don't you think there should be some kind of mention in the uses box? 82.37.246.236 (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Disproportionate Lead section
The lead section makes no mention of the environmental and health controversies surrounding this material, not even pro-rata to the main body content. It however makes reference to "figurines" which would seem to account for an infinitesimal proportion of its use, not even mentioned under applications, where it should surely be first. I'll fix these issues if no good reason to leave as-is is posted in the next week or so.  Trev M ~  15:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Fixed.  Trev M ~  13:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Expansion
Hello, I would like to expand the discussion on PVC with the latest information available on emissions during manufacture, certain chemical additives and recycling. I am now retired but worked in the PVC industry for many years. Currently I am involved with a professional members organisation where,amongst other objectives,sound knowledge and information is made available to communities.StuPat (talk) 12:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Please do. Be bold!  I am not a subject matter expert, but an educated layman and know the Wikipedia aspects thoroughly.  I'll help where I can.  —EncMstr (talk) 17:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Having just given the Applications section a bit of a shake-out, and stood back to look at the whole article, the environmental section now looks very heavy. For the non-tech visitor, I would suggest summarizing the detail on the main PVC page, and creating a sub-article containing this detail. I'll help... if consensus and others would like to help.  Trev M ~  15:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Archiving this page
I'm about to set up achiving with misa bot on this page, as is common practice with talk pages, as the page is full of redundant stuff. I'll set it up to leave posts younger than about 2 months, with a minimum of 6 threads on page. There is a template to mark any that shouldn't be archived, if need be.

see User:MiszaBot/config

Any objections?

 Trev M ~  16:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Editing Jan, 2012
Please be patient while I edit this page somewhat. PVC is an important material and there is lots of controlversy. Some of the material temporarily removed will be restored in a day or two.--Smokefoot (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Chemical Properties Section missing
Hi,

I was looking for the chemical properties of PVC, particularly the reactions with Petroleum derivatives like Petroleum jelly, Kerosene, Diesel and Gasoline. As I dont see a chemical properties section, should I add it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samveen (talk • contribs) 04:56, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * A short section citing a review or a book would be a welcome addition. PVC does not react with simple hydrocarbons or mixtures thereof (kerosene etc), but possibly the polymer swells a little. There is a section on chlorinated PVC already.--Smokefoot (talk) 13:29, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Bans?
Despite the controversy about PVC I found the information given in the section Bans not corresponding to what a ban actually is definition here. there is no prohibition in place. Should that be changed to another wording? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.109.11.4 (talk) 15:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Pipe photo
The pipe photo doesn't appear to show PVC pipes. We can't even see the pipes themselves; they're hidden under insulation. The insulation jackets on the elbows may be PVC, but it looks like a fiber jacket on the straight sections.--Theodore Kloba (talk) 14:05, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree and will aim to get a correct PVC pipe photo StuPat (talk) 13:53, 4 September 2012 (UTC)Better photo now shown StuPat (talk) 14:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

"electrical properties"
"PVC is a polymer with good electrical properties". Which? Insulation, or conductivity? --Jerome Potts (talk) 16:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC) I have clarified this paragraph StuPat (talk) 14:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

PVC is NOT Stronger than Ductile Iron!
The second sentence leading into this article, “PVC is used in construction because it is cheaper and stronger than more traditional alternatives such as copper or ductile iron…” is blatantly untrue with regard to strength and needs to be removed. Comparative testing in this regard showing by far the opposite, either accomplished or witnessed by third-parties, is e.g. documented in the publications at  and  (and many others) 207.223.116.5 (talk) 19:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Almost certainly that alludes to strength to weight ratio, not pure strength for a given volume. However, the sentence lacks context for that, so if noone else weighs in, I'll eventually fix it.  —EncMstr (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I fully agree and have altered this section to show that PVC can effectively replace these materials. StuPat (talk) 15:12, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Remove external link PVC – Bad News Comes in Threes
I propose to remove this link for a 2004 document that is more emotive than science based. There is now strong evidence in the Article that PVC is certainly no worse than other plastics and better than some in relation to Health and Safety and Waste handling (StuPat (talk) 15:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC))

Regnault & discovery of PVC ?
The article states that French chemist Henri Regnault accidentally synthesized PVC in 1835. This claim is incorrect.

I have found and read Regnault's original publications concerning vinyl chloride and (supposedly) PVC. Here are the articles and links to them:


 * Regnault, V. (1835) "Organisch-chemische Untersuchungen" (Organic chemical investigations), Annalen der Chemie, 2nd series, 15 : 60-74.
 * Regnault, V. (1838) "De l'action du chlore sur la liqueur des Hollandais et sur le chlorure d'aldéhydène" (On the action of chlorine on Dutch oil [1,2-dichloroethane] and on ethylene chloride [vinyl chloride]) Annales de Chimie et de Physique, 2nd series, 69 : 151-169.

Whether you can read German (as I can) or not, you'll notice that in Regnault's 1835 paper, he discussed his research only on brominated and iodated hydrocarbons (Bromkohlenwasserstoff and Jodkohlenwasserstoff, respectively). There is no mention of chlorinated hydrocarbons until the end of the paper, where, on pages 73 and 74, he mentioned that his teacher, "Hr. Liebig" (Justus von Liebig), had noticed similarities among ethylene halides. (Liebig gave the name "aldehyden" (dehydrated alcohol) to what is now called "ethylene".) Chloroethylene (Chlorkohlenwasserstoff, hydrocarbon chloride) is mentioned there. Neither Regnault nor Liebig claimed to have discovered a substance resembling PVC; furthermore, no finding was mentioned in the paper that could be interpreted as the production of PVC (i.e., the production of a white resinous precipitate or such).

In Regnault's 1838 paper (p. 152), he treated impure 1,2-dichloroethane (la liqueur des Hollandais) with a solution of potassium hydroxide (potasse caustique) in ethanol, producing vinyl chloride, which he then reacted with antimony pentachloride (perchlorure d'antimoine). The product of this reaction was consistent with 1,1,2-trichloroethane (p. 153). He then treated the 1,1,2-trichloroethane with potassium hydroxide in alcoholic solution and distilled the resulting mixture (p. 155). The distillate was consistent with 1,1-dichloroethylene (C2H2Cl2), a liquid that he determined was C4H4Cl4. In the next passage (p. 157) Regnault noted that this substance soon formed a resinous ("non-crystalline") precipitate: "Le liquide C4H4Cl4 est très peu stable; abandonné à lui-même dans un tube fermé à la lampe, il devient bientôt trouble et laisse déposer une matière blanche non cristalline, qui est une simple modification isomèrique."  (The liquid C4H4Cl4 is quite unstable; left alone in a tube sealed with a blow torch, it soon becomes cloudy and deposits a white, non-crystalline material, which is a simple isomeric modification.)  On page 158, he mentioned that if the liquid is put in a flask, mixed with dry chlorine gas, and then exposed to sunlight, it transforms to a solid:  "Le flacon ayant ensuite été exposé au soleil, le liquide a entièrement disparu et a été remplacé par le chlorure solide." (The flask having then been exposed to the sun, the liquid completely disappeared and was replaced by the solid chloride.) Subsequent investigators have concluded that Regnault had formed polyvinylidene chloride, not PVC. This is a reasonable conclusion since:
 * 1)  Polyvinylidene chloride is formed from 1,1-dichlorethylene, and Regnault had begun with dichlorethylene.
 * 2)  PVC is made from vinyl chloride.  Vinyl chloride is a gas at room temperature and pressure, whereas Regnault stated that the solid had formed from a liquid.  1,1-dichloroethylene is a liquid below 89° F (32° C); Regnault (1838, p. 155) noticed that the liquid "bout entre 35 et 40°" (boils between 35 and 40° C), consistent with a contaminated sample of 1,1-dichloroethylene.

By contrast, German chemist Eugen Baumann clearly discovered PVC in 1872. He exposed to sunlight what he knew to be vinyl chloride gas, to which a few drops of water had been added. Within 8 days, the gas had completely transformed into PVC. From p. 318: "Der feste Körper is eine ausserordentlich zähe, zusammenhängende, nicht krystallinische Masse von blendend weisser Farbe und vollständig geruchlos."  (The solid body is an extraordinarily tough, cohesive, non-crystalline mass of a brilliantly white color and completely odorless.)  See:  Baumann, E. (1872) "Ueber einige Vinylverbindungen" (On some vinyl compounds),  Annalen der Chemie und Pharmacie, 163 :  308 - 322.

The following sources state that Regnault did not produce PVC: 72.74.182.137 (talk) 08:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
 * R.A. Fava, "Introduction" in: Ronald A. Fava, ed., Methods of Experimental Physics, Vol. 16A:  Polymers:  Molecular Structure and Dynamics (New York, New York:  Academic Press, 1980) page 1.
 * Stanley R. Sandler, Polymer Syntheses, 2nd ed., vol. 2 (London, England: Academic Press, 1994), page 361.
 * A. William Coaker, "Poly(vinyl chloride)" in: C. Craver and C. Carraher, ed.s, Applied Polymer Science:  21st Century (Oxford, England:  Elsevier Science, 2000), page 107.
 * Charles E. Carraher, Giant Molecules: Essential Materials for Everyday Living and Problem Solving (Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons, 2003), page 156.

Phthalate Plasticizers
'Most vinyl products contain plasticizers which dramatically improve their performance characteristic.'

To me, that statement seems myopic and biased. Do the quotation's last two words mean something different in scientific terms than plain English?

Also, why is the article's spelling of plasticiz/ser inconsistent Beingsshepherd (talk) 00:19, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

"Poly(vinyl chloride)"
Is this really worth it? The article's title doesn't contain parentheses, and its first sentence states that the alternative form is just that: alternative&mdash;more correct, but very unusual. Besides, a compound word with parentheses is barely readable. Couldn't simple "polyvinyl chloride" work just as well? Τηε ΓΟΟΔ (talk) 11:33, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Much better. Otr500 (talk) 13:38, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Tannin effect on PVC
Suggest a section under degradation due to tannins, to be written by a knowledgeable party. A chemist once told me not to use PVC pipe in applications with buried soil, due to degradation from tannins in the soil. He said to use polyethylene pipe. Tannins refer to large polyphenolic compounds and are generally found in soil due to plants, trees, etc.

01july1953 (talk) 17:41, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Adhesives and Solvents
Please would someone knowledgeable add information about the types of solvents and adhesives that are used with PVC ? Many thanks ! Darkman101 (talk) 07:49, 15 October 2018 (UTC) What type of PVC are you asking about? Flexible (soft) or Rigid and in what end use would also be useful to know. Or do you require the information generally? StuPat (talk) 09:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Discovery
If I can make out the German properly, the exact opposite of what is written in this section appears to have been the case:
 * PVC was accidentally synthesized in 1872 by German chemist Eugen Baumann.[12] The polymer appeared as a white solid inside a flask of vinyl chloride that had been left exposed to sunlight.

According to the text linked through footnote [12], I think, Baumann says he deliberately left it on a shelf where it was protected from sunlight. This reminds me of the oft repeated story of how Max Planck, out of sheer desperation, sort of stumbled across his now famous Planck Constant, almost as if he was some kind of fumbling, bumbling boob who really didn't understand the full implications of what turned out to be the basis of the most important scientific advancement of the 20th century, quantum physics. Maybe WP can get a decent translation of the Baumann text to explicate the historical event one way or another. Dynasteria (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Vinyl record picture
Surely as the article is about vinyl the picture used for the record should actually show the part that is vinyl and not just the label. Lllogan (talk) 19:42, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Uncited material in need of citations
I am moving the following uncited material here until it can be properly supported with inline citations of reliable, secondary sources, per WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:CS, WP:NOR, WP:IRS, WP:PSTS, et al. This diff shows where it was in the article. Nightscream (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Discovery
The result was a more flexible and more easily processed material that soon achieved widespread commercial use.

Production
The polymerization of VCM is started by compounds called initiators that are mixed into the droplets. These compounds break down to start the radical chain reaction. Typical initiators include dioctanoyl peroxide and dicetyl peroxydicarbonate, both of which have fragile oxygen-oxygen bonds. Some initiators start the reaction rapidly but decay quickly, and other initiators have the opposite effect. A combination of two different initiators is often used to give a uniform rate of polymerization. After 10 monomer units have been added to the growing polymer chain, the short polymer precipitates inside the droplet of VCM, and polymerization continues with the precipitated, solvent-swollen particles. The weight average molecular weights of commercial polymers range from 100,000 to 200,000, and the number average molecular weights range from 45,000 to 64,000.

Once the reaction has run its course, the resulting PVC slurry is degassed and stripped to remove excess VCM, which is recycled. The polymer is then passed through a centrifuge to remove water. The slurry is further dried in a hot air bed, and the resulting powder is sieved before storage or pelletization. Normally, the resulting PVC has a VCM content of less than 1 part per million. Other production processes, such as micro-suspension polymerization and emulsion polymerization, produce PVC with smaller particle sizes (10 μm vs. 120–150 μm for suspension PVC) with slightly different properties and with somewhat different sets of applications.

However, in China, where there are substantial stocks, coal is the main starting material for the calcium carbide process. The acetylene so generated is then converted to VCM which usually involves the use of a mercury-based catalyst. The process is also very energy intensive, and generates considerable waste.

Producers
The second largest PVC manufacturer is Formosa Plastics Corp of Taiwan. The other major suppliers are based in North America and Western Europe.

Plasticizers
PVC without added plasticizers is known as uPVC (unplasticized PVC) or RPVC (rigid PVC). Most flexible vinyl products contain plasticizers which are used to make the material softer and more flexible, and lower the glass transition temperature. Plasticizers work by increasing the space between the PVC polymer chains and acting as a lubricant between them. Higher levels of plasticizer result in softer PVC compounds and decrease tensile strength.

Di-2-ethylhexylphthalate
DEHP alternatives, which are gradually replacing it, are adipates (DEHA, DOA) citrate esters (butyryltrihexylcitrate (BTHC), ATBC and TEC), cyclohexane-1,2-dicarboxylic acid diisononylester (DINCH), di(2-ethylhexyl)terephthalate, polymerics and trimellitic acid, and 2-ethylhexylester (TOTM).

Metal stabilizers
Liquid mixed metal stabilisers are used in several PVC flexible applications such as calendered films, extruded profiles, injection moulded soles and footwear, extruded hoses and plastisols where PVC paste is spread on to a backing (flooring, wall covering, artificial leather). Liquid mixed metal stabiliser systems are primarily based on barium, zinc and calcium carboxylates. In general liquid mixed metals like BaZn and CaZn require the addition of co-stabilisers, antioxidants and organophosphites to provide optimum performance.

Tin-based stabilizers are mainly used in Europe for rigid, transparent applications due to the high temperature processing conditions used. The situation in North America is different where tin systems are used for almost all rigid PVC applications. Tin stabilizers can be divided into two main groups, the first group containing those with tin-oxygen bonds and the second group with tin-sulfur bonds.

Heat stabilizers
Addition levels vary typically from 2% to 4%. Tin mercaptides are widely used globally in rigid PVC applications due to their high efficiency and proven performance. Typical usage levels are 0.3% (pipe) to 2.5% (foam) depending on the application. Tin stabilizers are the preferred stabilizers for high output PVC and CPVC extrusion. Tin stabilizers have been in use for over 50 years by companies such as PMC organometallix and its predecessors. The choice of the best PVC stabilizer depends on its cost effectiveness in the end use application, performance specification requirements, processing technology and regulatory approvals.

Mechanical
PVC has high hardness and mechanical properties. The mechanical properties enhance with the molecular weight increasing but decrease with the temperature increasing. The mechanical properties of rigid PVC (uPVC) are very good; the elastic modulus can reach 1500–3,000 MPa. The soft PVC (flexible PVC) elastic limit is 1.5–15 MPa.

Thermal and fire
Melting temperatures range from 100 °C to 260 °C (500 °F) depending upon manufacture additives to the PVC. The linear expansion coefficient of rigid PVC is small and has good flame retardancy, the limiting oxygen index (LOI) being up to 45 or more. The LOI is the minimum concentration of oxygen, expressed as a percentage, that will support combustion of a polymer and noting that air has 20% content of oxygen.

Electrical
PVC is a polymer with good insulation properties, but because of its higher polar nature the electrical insulating property is inferior to non-polar polymers such as polyethylene and polypropylene.

Since the dielectric constant, dielectric loss tangent value, and volume resistivity are high, the corona resistance is not very good, and it is generally suitable for medium or low voltage and low frequency insulation materials.

Chemical
PVC is chemically resistant to acids, salts, bases, fats, and alcohols, making it resistant to the corrosive effects of sewage, which is why it is so extensively utilized in sewer piping systems. It is also resistant to some solvents; this, however, is reserved mainly for uPVC (unplasticized PVC). Plasticized PVC, also known as PVC-P, is in some cases less resistant to solvents. For example, PVC is resistant to fuel and some paint thinners. Some solvents may only swell it or deform it but not dissolve it, but some, like tetrahydrofuran or acetone, may damage it.

Pipes
In February 2007 the California Building Standards Code was updated to approve the use of chlorinated polyvinyl chloride (CPVC) pipe for use in residential water supply piping systems. CPVC has been a nationally accepted material in the US since 1982; California, however, has permitted only limited use since 2001. The Department of Housing and Community Development prepared and certified an environmental impact statement resulting in a recommendation that the commission adopt and approve the use of CPVC. The commission's vote was unanimous, and CPVC has been placed in the 2007 California Plumbing Code.

PVC pipe is also often estimated to last 50 to 70 years.

Its lightweight, low cost, and low maintenance make it attractive. However, it must be carefully installed and bedded to ensure longitudinal cracking and overbelling does not occur. Additionally, PVC pipes can be fused together using various solvent cements, or heat-fused (butt-fusion process, similar to joining high-density polyethylene (HDPE) pipe), creating permanent joints that are virtually impervious to leakage.

Electric cables
PVC is commonly used as the insulation on electrical cables such as teck; PVC used for this purpose needs to be plasticized. Flexible PVC coated wire and cable for electrical use has traditionally been stabilised with lead, but these are being replaced with calcium-zinc based systems.

Frequently in applications where smoke is a major hazard (notably in tunnels and communal areas), PVC-free cable insulation is preferred, such as low smoke zero halogen (LSZH) insulation.

Construction
PVC is a common, strong but lightweight plastic used in construction. It is made softer and more flexible by the addition of plasticizers. If no plasticizers are added, it is known as uPVC (unplasticized polyvinyl chloride) or rigid PVC.

Clothing
PVC fabric has a niche role in speciality clothing, either to create an artificial leather material or at times simply for its effect. PVC clothing is common in Goth, Punk, clothing fetish and alternative fashions. PVC is less expensive than rubber, leather or latex, which it is used to simulate.

....and sports bags.

Healthcare
The reasons for using flexible PVC in these applications for over 50 years are numerous and based on cost effectiveness linked to transparency, light weight, softness, tear strength, kink resistance, suitability for sterilization and biocompatibility.

Flooring
Flexible PVC flooring is inexpensive and used in a variety of buildings, including homes, hospitals, offices, and schools. Complex and 3D designs are possible, which are then protected by a clear wear layer. A middle vinyl foam layer also gives a comfortable and safe feel. The smooth, tough surface of the upper wear layer prevents the buildup of dirt, which prevents microbes from breeding in areas that need to be kept sterile, such as hospitals and clinics.

Other uses
PVC has been used for a host of consumer products. One of its earliest mass-market consumer applications was vinyl record production. More recent examples include wallcovering, greenhouses, home playgrounds, foam and other toys, custom truck toppers (tarpaulins), ceiling tiles and other kinds of interior cladding.

Chlorinated PVC
The reaction produces CPVC, which can be used in hotter and more corrosive environments than PVC.

Degradation
Degradation during service life, or after careless disposal, is a chemical change that drastically reduces the average molecular weight of the polyvinyl chloride polymer. Since the mechanical integrity of a plastic depends on its high average molecular weight, wear and tear inevitably weakens the material. Weathering degradation, such as photoxidation, results in surface embrittlement and microcracking, yielding microparticles that continue on in the environment. Also known as microplastics, these particles act like sponges and soak up persistent organic pollutants (POPs) around them. Thus laden with high levels of POPs, the microparticles are often ingested by organisms in the biosphere.

Plasticizers
Japanese car companies Toyota, Nissan, and Honda eliminated the use of PVC in car interiors beginning in 2007.

EU decisions on phthalates
The Committee said there are some alternative plasticizers available for which there is sufficient toxicological data to indicate a lower hazard compared to DEHP but added that the functionality of these plasticizers should be assessed before they can be used as an alternative for DEHP in PVC medical devices. Risk assessment results have shown positive results regarding the safe use of High Molecular Weight Phthalates. They have all been registered for REACH and do not require any classification for health and environmental effects, nor are they on the Candidate List for Authorisation. High phthalates are not CMR (carcinogenic, mutagenic or toxic for reproduction), neither are they considered endocrine disruptors.

EU decisions on phthalates
In the EU Risk Assessment the European Commission has confirmed that di-isononyl phthalate (DINP) and di-isodecyl phthalate (DIDP) pose no risk to either human health or the environment from any current use. The European Commission's findings (published in the EU Official Journal on 13 April 2006) confirm the outcome of a risk assessment involving more than 10 years of extensive scientific evaluation by EU regulators.

Following the adoption of EU legislation with the regard to the marketing and use of DINP in toys and childcare articles, the risk assessment conclusions clearly state that there is no need for any further measures to regulate the use of DINP. In Europe and in some other parts of the world, the use of DINP in toys and childcare items has been restricted as a precautionary measure. In Europe, for example, DINP can no longer be used in toys and childcare items that can be put in the mouth even though the EU scientific risk assessment concluded that its use in toys does not pose a risk to human health or the environment. The rigorous EU risk assessments, which include a high degree of conservatism and built-in safety factors, have been carried out under the strict supervision of the European Commission and provide a clear scientific evaluation on which to judge whether or not a particular substance can be safely used.

Vinyl chloride monomer
Technology for removal of VCM from products has become stringent, commensurate with the associated regulations.

Dioxins
The design of modern incinerators minimises PCDD/F formation by optimising the stability of the thermal process. To comply with the EU emission limit of 0.1 ng I-TEQ/m3 modern incinerators operate in conditions minimising dioxin formation and are equipped with pollution control devices which catch the low amounts produced. Recent information is showing for example that dioxin levels in populations near incinerators in Lisbon and Madeira have not risen since the plants began operating in 1999 and 2002 respectively.

The Commission states (on page 27) that it has been suggested that the reduction of the chlorine content in the waste can contribute to the reduction of dioxin formation, even though the actual mechanism is not fully understood. The influence on the reduction is also expected to be a second or third order relationship. It is most likely that the main incineration parameters, such as the temperature and the oxygen concentration, have a major influence on the dioxin formation". The Green Paper states further that at the current levels of chlorine in municipal waste, there does not seem to be a direct quantitative relationship between chlorine content and dioxin formation.

End-of-life
...that upgrades the less inefficient incinerators.
 * 1) Disposal: processes to dispose of waste be it landfilling, incineration, pyrolysis, gasification and other finalist solutions. Landfill is restricted in some EU-countries through Landfill Directives and there is a debate about incineration. For example, original plastic which contains a lot of energy is just recovered in energy instead of being recycled. According to the Waste Framework Directive, the European Waste Hierarchy is legally binding except in cases that may require specific waste streams to depart from the hierarchy. This should be justified on the basis of life-cycle thinking.

The European Commission has set new rules to promote the recovery of PVC waste for use in a number of construction products. It says: "The use of recovered PVC should be encouraged in the manufacture of certain construction products because it allows the reuse of old PVC ... This avoids PVC being discarded in landfills or incinerated causing release of carbon dioxide and cadmium in the environment".

Sustainability
It can be recycled roughly seven times and has a lifespan of around 140 years.

PVC is used for UBC
I am requesting that the my edit be reinstated. It’s well known in tbe industry that PVC is used for underbody coating in automotive. Toyota for example uses PVC formulations. Would an SDS be considered a reliable source? FSeg500 (talk) 14:02, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Lead claims that PVC is "insoluble in all solvents"
The lead claims in the third paragraph that "Polyvinyl chloride [...] is insoluble in all solvents but swells in the monomer and some chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents."

I was surprised by the lack of qualification. PVC is of course soluble in some solvents. This study for instance found PVC to be soluble in several organic solvents, including two it is "well-known" to dissolve in: tetrahydrofuran and methylethylketone. The author may have confused PVC for PET, which really isn't soluble in common industrial solvents (though that is still a far cry from not being soluble in ANY solvent; you can dissolve PET in BHET and some other solvents at room temperature).

The property of being insoluble in every solvent would be quite remarkable and a sort of alchemical dream, so it deserves a citation at least. Eebster the Great (talk) 23:50, 5 November 2023 (UTC)