Talk:Pompeii/Archive 4

Books, Codices (Codexes), Documents, etc.
I could find no mention of the finding of Books, Codices (Codexes), Documents, etc. in the article.

Surely, if the city was well-preserved they had books that survived on parchments, inscriptions, etc.

Didn't they have any library?

Didn't some rich person have collections?

Where are all these housed today?

These would be an incredible find.

Or did they get destroyed like nearly all of the writings of the Mayans?

Can those who know about Pompeii, Herculaneum, etc. please add this information?

Thanks!

Misty MH (talk) 22:53, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There were some finds of a library of papyri in the early days, at Herculaneum I think. Too bad the unknown owner of the villa had not been reading (to us) unknown tragedies of Sophocles and Aeschylus or non-surviving books of Livy and Caesat. The larger part was by a fairly trite Hellenistic philosopher called Philodemus... (he may even have been one of the guys living in the house, some scholars speculste).


 * Also and unfortunately, books that are truly carbonized by heat will become generally illegible in the process, even where they would not actually have caught fire. That's what would have happened with both papyri and parchment books at Pompeii (and many of them would have burned anyway in the lava and the incinerating heat) 83.254.151.33 (talk) 04:09, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This matter is well covered in Herculaneum papyri. There are some links there to video clips showing what can be done with modern technology. Philip Trueman (talk) 05:13, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Sodom and Gomorrah
The article reads, 'Prior to or shortly after the destruction of Pompeii, one graffitist had scribbled "Sodom and Gomorrah" onto a wall near the city's central crossroads.' Is this saying that the graffiti was in modern English? There's a citation listed, but it's to a book I don't have access to, and I can't find any reference to this supposed graffiti anywhere credible. If this were real, I feel like photos of the graffiti would be posted on every Christian blog that mentions it. Can someone with a copy of this book confirm the citation and/or the authors' source? I'm not an expert, but a claim that a first century Roman would have written graffiti referencing a Jewish myth seems apocryphal; it's a little too convenient for the Christians who like to claim that the cities were destroyed as punishment for the sexy frescos. If no other evidence for the existence of this graffiti can be found, I think this line should probably be removed. Cutoffsparty (talk) 07:30, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I think this sounds like codswallop. There is a review of that book at The Guardian and they say, "Some of the personal stories which Butterworth interweaves with the purely factual narrative are those of known individuals, while others are extrapolations." This speaks volumes, and tells me that the authors may have exaggerated for the sort of sensationalism that is often sold as "academic research" nowadays. They are referred to as "British popular historians" on the book's Amazon page. Just because someone published it doesn't mean it's accurate. I have been to Pompeii twice and was never made aware of such graffiti, but even if there is such graffiti, it could very well be from the Victorian era. In many ruins in Europe that I've been to, there are tons of graffiti from the medieval period through the renaissance and up to a few dozen years ago.


 * It is possible that a Jewish resident wrote it during the eruption, as there were Jews in these Roman towns (I've seen the depiction of a menorah at Ostia), however, why are there no images online of this graffiti? I would think I would find images in a google search if it did exist. I'd like to see proof or refutation of this.
 * Tracker1312 (talk) 05:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Deleted it. If someone finds an academic source I guess it could be restored, but I doubt that will happen as if it's true you'd expect it to be mentioned frequently. Dougweller (talk) 07:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I thought the exact same thing when I read it and saw this thread.....HOWEVER, I found a reference from a Proffesor Frederick E. Brenk, entitled "CLothed in Purple Light". Is this a reliable source for the information. I had to look. I put the whole thing down in the next thread and thought...well....maybe. Thoughts?--Amadscientist (talk) 07:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Well done. See and in particular searchfor "sodoma gomora" which is the key search phrase and the actual graffiti. There are images if you search under that spelling, and we have one. Dougweller (talk) 08:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * And now that I see that image I am beginning to remember this subject a little. I think we discussed this on a History message board some years ago. I will do further looking to research this out better and add the information back in with the strongest RS I can find. Thanks Doug!--Amadscientist (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Did a 14 year old write this section?
Someone please look at the following Early history "Everyone who lived in pompeii died!:( they never knew about this volcano so they never bothered to leave when they had the chance however they couldn't because pompeii is an island an their only chance of living was if someone rescues them. years passed and then archeologists discovered this long forgotten island..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanmercer (talk • contribs) 21:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * My guess is yes. The part about Sodom and Gomorraha was particularly hilarious considering that the terms are biblical and the bible was about a thousand years from being written at the time of Pompeii's demise, not to mention the part about shortly after wards someone was supposed to have made graffiti on a wall buried under ash about a subject a thousand years before its conception.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I removed it as vandalism. As for the Bible, no, that existed before Pompeii but the source is unreliable. Dougweller (talk) 07:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant what is called by Christians the Old Testament was in existence. Dougweller (talk) 07:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Technically, you were still correct Doug. The Hebrew Bible was around at the time although I believe the term "Bible" is taken from a term of Late Latin.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Coordinate error
The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—99.101.12.26 (talk) 01:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Though I've added some parameters to the template, I don't see any problem with the coordinates themselves. I'm therefore closing this request, since it cited no specific correction as being needed. Deor (talk) 10:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

BC vs AD on the Pompeii header
Hi,

"Researchers believe that the town was founded in the seventh or sixth century BC and was captured by the Romans in 80 BC. By the time of its destruction, 160 years later, its population was probably approximately 20,000, with a complex water system, an amphitheater, gymnasium and a port."

I noticed the above on this article and realized that if the town was founded between 70-60 BC and captured in 80 BC, wouldn't it have been captured before it was founded?

Is this a simple translation from BC to AD or are the dates totally off? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregoryjlucas (talk • contribs) 03:59, 26 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Centuries are 100 years in length, so the founding would have been sometime between 500 and 700 BC. Unfortunately, this information isn't sourced, either in the lead or later sections. —ADavidB 08:29, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Rediscovery/Divine Retribution
The Rediscovery section has the following line: "Some individuals have since noted that the destruction of Pompeii can be viewed as a form of "Divine Retribution."" This is 1) not discussed in any depth, so I don't know what it means, 2) not relevant to the historical article, and 3) not relevant to the "rediscovery" section it's in. I've deleted the line; if there is a reason why it should be restored, let me know. Reyemile (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Rediscovery Section
Not sure if this is intentional but the first sentence makes no sense: "The architect Domenico Fontana was called in; he unearthed a few more frescoes"... What? Who called him in? A few *more* frescoes? This implies that some were already unearthed, but there's no mention of that before this in the article.

When was Pompeii first rediscovered after being buried? By whom? Came here to find this out; alas, I'm going to have to do some more traditional research! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wxwnc (talk • contribs) 18:25, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Vandal I guess, restored what used to be there. Dougweller (talk) 18:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2014
There is a hashtag which shouldnt be there please remove it

91.74.118.232 (talk) 13:02, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Removed the only # seen Cannolis (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2014
91.74.118.232 (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ". Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 17:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a change.

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2014
Larakholy (talk) 01:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
 * No request. C T F 8 3 !  02:29, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

CE vs AD
Would be very nice if wikipedia would not attack people's worldview by enforcing christianity to the readers/users by using inappropriate time-designations.


 * See WP:ERA. Dougweller (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2015
Please replace "between" with "in" in the sentence "During the excavation, plaster was used to fill in the voids between the ash layers that once held human bodies."

This is a grammar error that seems to say that the bodies are only located between the various layers of ash, but that's not true.

72.207.103.144 (talk) 07:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * where else were there bodies? Cannolis (talk) 08:54, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  10:31, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Castellum
Castellum aquae is the real word for the idraulic construction. Castellum alone is the word of a fort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.148.0.91 (talk) 00:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Xxx
The following coordinate fixes are needed for

—103.255.6.4 (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You haven't said what you think is erroneous, and the coordinates in the article appear to be correct. If you still think that there is an error, please give a clear explanation of what it is, and someone will be along to help you. Deor (talk) 19:56, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Population
The "geography" section says that house count suggests there were 11,000 to 11,500 inhabitants, but the "First century AD" section under history says the population at the time of the eruption was about 20,000. Can this be clarified? Treastroll (talk) 01:23, 10 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The 11,000 to 11,500 claim comes from the house count as indicated in the article. The 20,000 claim comes from the maximum potential capacity of the amphitheater. There are numerous issues with estimating population from the amphitheater capacity -- namely that it doesn't account for the facts that the people who attend gladiatorial games (ie adult men) only represent a fraction of the population and that people who lived in the surrounding countryside and neighboring towns without an amphitheater would have come to the amphitheater in Pompeii to watch games. Since the house count number is the more accepted number, I'm going to change the population reference in the history section in accordance with it if there's no objection here. Aliiqve (talk) 14:21, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

How many people died in the volcanic erruption? Are they more than a thousand? A million?! I am serious..... Dee Dub Lil (talk) 14:18, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Top photo
The top photo in the right hand sidebar (above the map) is captioned "Via dell'Abbondanza, the main street in Pompeii", but the actual photo is an aerial view of the modern city Pompei. The classical Roman city is not even visible in the photo, the amphitheatre being just off the frame to the left. This is clearly mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.93.101.125 (talk) 09:24, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, image now replaced. Cheers IdreamofJeanie (talk) 09:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Found documents
I saw no mention in the article at all of documents found as part of excavations. It would seem to me that this topic would be of major importance. Can folks in the know or experts please add this information? Thank you! Misty MH (talk) 12:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
 * No mention of: parchments, vellum, papyrus, papyri, tablets, stele, documents—nothing. Misty MH (talk) 12:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Graffiti is mentioned. Misty MH (talk) 12:56, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
 * There is a separate article on the Herculaneum papyri. —ADavidB 13:42, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Structure
The structure of the page is very poor and needs improving. The History section mixes many things, time-wise and site descriptions. No detailed site description. No clear section on archaeology. I would propose a reorganisation and more material. Rjdeadly (talk) 21:19, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Spelling
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to put this, but can someone correct the spelling error in the first section. Someone wrote “artefacts” instead of “artifacts.”
 * no, either form is correct, it just depands on which side of the Atlantic you live. Brits spell the word with an e, and Americans use an i. have a look here for more details on Wikipedia's approach to the differences. Cheers IdreamofJeanie (talk) 08:12, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2018
63.247.71.66 (talk) 15:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC) About 7,000 people where injured in this volcanic eruption.
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 15:19, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Buried alive or killed and buried?
The lead paragraph suggests that people were buried before they could escape, but evidence suggests that people were more likely killed by

(1) being crushed under failing buildings (2) dying in fires following the earthquake, as from fallen or broken oil lamps (3) trauma from falling masonry, crockery, and other heavy objects falling upon them (4) trampling (such as being hit by people, livestock, or vehicles escaping) (5) heart attacks under the extreme stress (6) suffocating by volcanic ash that could set like concrete with moisture in the lungs, and (7) being killed by heat or toxic gases from the pyroclastic flow.

Any of these causes would have left people dead before the volcanic ash could bury their bodies.

People who could leave while the going was good could have gone some considerable distance before the pyroclastic flow could overtake them. At a 3 mph walking pace one could get to relative safety within five hours of the earthquakes that made Pompeii too dangerous to stay in even if without an eruption. Pbrower2a (talk) 21:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Edit request: IPA
Would someone kindly replace the absurd Latin IPA transcription (/pɔmpɛjjiː/) the article currently uses with the correct /pompeiː/? You can use this:. I do not know what language that is meant to be, but the sounds /ɔ/ and /ɛ/ did not even exist in Latin. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.48.18 (talk) 10:55, 20 May 2014‎ (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done Replaced the Latin IPA pronunciation —ADavidB 13:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Nonsense. Of course these sounds existed. See Latin spelling and pronunciation. The OP is clearly not informed about the reconstructed pronunciation of Latin, nor IPA. I have undone the change. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 03:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

A vowel shift was already underway in common spoken (but not the learned Latin of scholars and the administrative elites)in which vowel length was giving way to 'closeness' and 'opnenness' as Classical Latin gave way to Vulgar Latin among the semiliterate and illiterate masses. Both forms of Latin were then spoken in Italy, and the difference was likely by then a shibboleth of social class. Pbrower2a (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2018
In the opener, the bold text should be added:

The city has been largely preserved because of lack of air and moisture. The many buildings and artifacts preserved provide an (sic) extraordinarily detailed insight into the life of the city.

Source: http://www.answers.com/Q/What_buildings_have_been_found_in_pompeii_after_the_eruption Immike1 (talk) 04:32, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The buildings have been preserved from many ancient cities to a similar extent as Pompeii. I think the point of that sentence is that smaller more degradable artifacts have been preserved as well, which is unusual and makes Pompeii stand out among archaeological sites. A2soup (talk) 07:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps 'artefacts' is too narrow and it should be widened to something like 'remains of the city'? Richard Nevell (talk) 19:50, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ - Seems like an improvement to me. I reworded it a bit to make it fit, and I think it reads better now. Thanks! A2soup (talk) 19:54, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per MOS:NOBOLD.  Spintendo   15:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I think they were using bold to show what they wanted changed, not to make text in the article bold. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:50, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Artifacts from antiquity tend to not be preserved unless they are 'discovered' after centuries of concealment. The fascination with antiquity seems a modern trait, if one begins with the Renaissance as the beginning of modernity. Practically all things that we consider antiquities were commodities at one time, including jewelry which tended to be recycled to fit newer fashions. The volcanic burial of Pompeii preserved many unlikely things that would otherwise have been consumed (like bread baked the day of the eruption) well enough, or objects such as coins and metal jewelry whose value was largely their material. See also shipwrecks.

I think of the "Ring Lady" who was killed in possession of some jewelry from the time that would certainly have eventually been melted down for the metal. We may not know whether she was a looter, or someone trying to rescue some possessions as something to sell to get a start elsewhere. She died, but somehow the rings survived her -- and the tendency to melt them down for subsequent use. Had she gotten away she might have sold them to someone who would have melted them down for newer stuff that would have itself been melted down later. Pbrower2a (talk) 03:22, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2019
Add to the In Popular Culture section a reference to Dar Williams' song, "This Was Pompeii!". The song was released on Williams' Mortal City album on January 23, 1996. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_City Jmahone (talk) 14:49, 24 August 2019 (UTC)


 * There's already an entry for this song in the Pompeii in popular culture article. Is there a particular reason it needs to be in the main article?  (I freely acknowledge some of what's already there may not be particularly notable.) —ADavidB 20:18, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

in the during (bad bad bad)
...buried under 4 to 6 m (13 to 20 ft) of volcanic ash and pumice in the during the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in October of AD 79. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.226.103 (talk) 17:51, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Edit
In the first paragraph of the rediscovery and excavation part it says grafito and not graffiti — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.56.8.2 (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * That's because "graffito" is the singular form of "graffiti", and the article is describing a single example at that point. —ADavidB 02:47, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Sextus Pompey
I learned it was named after Sextus Pompey. The Mo-Ja&#39;al (talk) 20:34, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Pompeii was founded hundreds of years before Sextus lived. —ADavidB 11:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2020
Please insert reference to recent work that has identified the agriculture of Roman Pompeii, including the vineyards and wine presses as below: Recent research has illuminated the many vineyards that were planted amongst the city at the time of the eruption, including the large vineyard for wine production, with wine press in situ, at the Foro Boario.

This source can be cited: https://www.academia.edu/35130874/Pressing_Issues_A_New_Discovery_in_the_Vineyard_of_Region_I_20_Pompeii 137.111.13.125 (talk) 01:36, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Dawnseeker2000  01:39, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Pilentum found at Pompeii
Can a confirmed user take a look at this BBC page about a pilentum found at Pompeii. It deserves a mention, I think, thanks. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56222992  2A00:23C6:3B82:8500:80A7:67A9:B370:BCBF (talk) 23:00, 27 February 2021 (UTC)


 * More on the find, described as being unique, here https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/feb/27/archaeologists-find-unique-ceremonial-vehicle-near-pompeii 2A00:23C6:3B82:8500:80A7:67A9:B370:BCBF (talk) 23:36, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2021
Modern archaeology - Could a confirmed user replace "with stories engrave on the bronze" with "with stories engraved on the bronze". The description of the vehicle as a chariot (used by most of the popular press) could also do with changing. A chariot is a two-wheeled vehicle. The four wheeled carriage is properly called a pilentum. See the BBC and Guardian links above for the use of that name. 2A00:23C6:3B82:8500:7818:924D:17E7:E35F (talk) 00:35, 1 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I've updated the 'stories' portion, per the source, and will leave any updates about chariot/carriage/pilentum to other editor(s). —ADavidB 04:10, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Protected headline
Mark 1t 200[anonymous] 6000 answered=no Pompeii 1

}} 173.164.176.53 (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pupsterlove02  talk • contribs 17:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2021
Hi,

I would please like to change the text of an external link from "Archaeological Park of Pompeii on Google Arts and Culture platform" to "Explore the Archaelogical Park of Pompeii in the UNESCO collection on Google Arts and Culture".

Thanks so much! GBut (talk) 10:39, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. I don't think that is an improvement. Better to just use the page title. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:07, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

request edit: population
there are significantly competing figures regarding the population. in the beginning, a source (3) from 2011 says 11,000 inhabitants. later, source 45 from 1958 says 20,000. Brinkman 314 (talk) 21:01, 12 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Graystormmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 22:35, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:05, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * House of the Faun (Pompeii).jpg

Suggestions for External Links section
Dear all,

consider these suggestions:

A/ there is a website (Pompeii: virtual tour and travel guide of Pompeii Italy - ItalyGuides.it) that allows to have a 3D-view of some of the sites in Pompeii. It also features a zoom-able interactive map (Google-maps style) which is rather instructive.

Maybe nice to add as an external link?

B/ the archived link down at the 6th bullet-point of this section, named Forum of Pompeii Digital Media Archive has a problem:

the plug-in of the Intro/Slideshow/3D-flythrough window supposed to showcase photos, laser scans & panoramas isn't supported anymore which makes the whole thing rather pointless.

If any of you can restore it that would be great. If not, maybe delete the archived link?

2A02:1811:E41E:6C00:EC52:69E1:AD98:A03B (talk) 23:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I updated the CyArk link from the broken archive to a current one, and will let other editor(s) decide whether to add the ItalyGuides link. —ADavidB 19:21, 24 March 2023 (UTC)