Talk:Pontiac (automobile)/Archives/2012

Geo phased out
"Pontiac also becomes the fifth American automobile brand since 1997 to be phased out, after Geo, Eagle, Plymouth, and Oldsmobile."

Should Geo be considered as a brand in this context? Geo was a sub-brand of Chevrolet (Chevrolet Geo) and only available at Chevrolet dealerships. Getting rid of the Geo name didn't have the same impact as phasing out the other mentioned names. Geo products were still produced under the Chevrolet only name (i.e. Geo Prizm was marketed as Chevrolet Prizm). Perhaps there should be some re-wording of this statement, notation, or not mention Geo in this context?

Clean up
Cleaned up entry regarding the 389 motor (it was garbled), and added John DeLorean as the person behind the GTO concept in 1964.

Is this article encyclopediatic?
I've read through this article on several occassions and feel that it relies too heavily on superlatives, POV/emotive words and cliche's. It doesn't read like an article so much as its phrases sound like PR copy. I feel that it needs a rewrite. Stude62 17:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Good, now that the POV tag is on the article, here are my issues with the article as it stands today (January 28, 2005): 1) Sample phrases and jargon
 * "combination of stunning looks and incredible performance"
 * "One of his first ideas was to bring back the GTO in order to revive Pontiac's performance heritage in light of the Firebird's demise. But since Pontiac, or any other GM division didn't offer a suitable platform, Lutz decided to look elsewhere, and found what he was looking for in Australia." (If any other GM Division didn't offer a suitable platform, what does that make Holden, GM's Austrialian marque)?
 * Yes, actually, Holden is GM's Australian marque seeing as how it's the ONLY GM brand in Australia.
 * No, you miss the point. As the sentence was written If no other GM division had an acceptible platform, then that would include Holden as not having an acceptible platform because it is a GM division.  The proper way to state this relationship would have been But since Pontiac, or any other North American division division didn't offer a suitable platform, then mention Holden. Alson, please sign your posts using four tildas, , it helps us to know who you are. Stude62 18:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "Solstice became one of hottest car America's throughout 2005 as Pontiac reported orders far beyond their ability to produce the car, and dealer mark-ups of thousands of dollars over sticker price, a rarity for GM in this time of deep incentives." (According to whom? Where's the attribution and based on what criteria?)


 * I had an interesting experience today - on the street in front of a local Pontiac dealer was a Solstice with mid level options - with the factory sticker at what about one would expect price-wise to be competitive (low mid $20K). However, an additional tag marked "Market Adjustment" added $5,995 to this price! Since I was out of my vehicle anyway, I walked across the street to see the new Mazda Miata, which appears to be a better vehicle, (this was also a middle range model but unlike the Solstice is equipped with low profile tires and six speed transmission), is available at an equivalent price and trim levels and without additional dealer markup and which is substantially improved over the 2nd generation it replaced. Sure, the Solstice "market adjustment" is probably soft, but I would not even bother talking to that dealer's salesperson and certainly am not entertaining a Solstice purchase, while the Miata sparked my latent new car lust. No wonder GM is in trouble - Leonard G. 05:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

2) I wrote the second paragrapah and am going in to remove the word "smashing", although it was, the superlative isn't needed.

The first paragraph of this article lowers the standard of the entire page: "featuring a sportier, high-performance driving experience for a reasonable price, and its advertisements appeal to younger customers."- What kind of neutrality is this?213.94.243.108 20:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

List of vehicles
I've commented out this list, as it's better handled by a category. - brenneman (t) (c)  12:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This list contains numerous worldwide rebadges that cannot be placed in categories (the articles are are mere redirects), and they are missing from the List of Pontiac vehicles altogether. --DmitryKo 08:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Solstice
There are literally hundreds of articles about the introduction of the Solstice, and how consumers have complained mightily about Dealers gouging consumers due to the limited supply which was caused by the large demand which started on The Apprentice. Search on any of the above and find out for yourself. People have reported waiting for months for the car. Solsticeforum.com has many of these stories.

Also, it is not (yet) mentioned here that the Solstice has been so successful that it is now the top selling roadster in America despite the Mazda Miata's reign for 18 years (see recent USA Today, Mazda Pulls Switcheroo on Pontiac). That's not a superlative, it's fact. 198.208.251.21

Response by Stude62
Before I respond to the comment above, I would like to mention that the IP address 198.208.251.21 attributing the above post is registered to General Motors headquarters in downtown Detroit.

While I am assuming good faith, I think that the relationship between the user and General Motors, and General Motors to the Soltice (GM produces the Pontiac Solstice) needs to be disclosed. Also, it needs to be recorded that the post above made by IP 198.208.251.21 was made on 19:14, 4 February 2006 accounding to Wikipedia time stamps.

Regarding your comment about supply not being able to meet demand which can be stated without using jargon, it can be done very easily. For example your POV statement in this talk page (and POV is acceptable on talk page, but I need an example) reads:


 * "There are literally hundreds of articles about the introduction of the Solstice, and how consumers have complained mightily about Dealers gouging consumers due to the limited supply which was caused by the large demand which started on The Apprentice."''

If I remove the italics that I placed in your statement (statements with are either POV, or aren’t documented by references) can be edited down to read: "Demand for the Solstice exceeded supply following its rollout on NBC’s The Apprentice." and "Consumers complained about dealers marking up the car's sticker price." Both sentences are NPOV, both are informative and aren't weighed down by jargon.

As for the article (USA Today) that you mention, use of that source is more then welcome, providing that you quote and attribute the source; you would need to provide the publication, date, page, author and the stated, not implied, comment relative matter at hand. Contributors need to come prepared to back up their writings, while editors edit what is written. It is the contributors job to do the research, not the other way around unless the editor suspects that material has been taken from one source and incorrectly used (ie without attribution).

Again, it isn’t my intent to rain on anyone’s parade, but the material needs to remain NPOV, and has to be verifible. Stude62 19:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

=
===Picture of Solstice================== Someone who has an account should add a picture of the Solstice to the gallery. It was one of Bob Lutz's biggest goals to get the Solstice on the road. And a ton was focused on the design of this car. I find it odd that it was skipped from the gallery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.131.152 (talk) 21:13, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Older Pontiacs
Article seems very thin on pre-World War II Pontiacs. Info needed. -- Infrogmation 23:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Expansion tag
This article says nothing about Pontiac in the past 20 years. I would think the more recent change to the product line would be worth mentioning. --Holderca1 13:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Logo Name
This article shows the logo as the "arrow-head" logo, but on here it's referred to as the "dart". Should arrow-head be changed to dart?--jonrev 03:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Makes sense... maybe change it?--70.91.110.14 13:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

In the GM brand lineup, Pontiac is a mid-level brand
In the intro it says:
 * In the GM brand lineup, Pontiac is a mid-level brand. Someone should explain that because it doesn't mean anything to me. Otherwise it should just be deleted.  What is an upper-level brand versus a lower-level brand? Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 19:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Once upon a time, around 1925-1975 or so, there was a strict hierarchy to GM brands: Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and Cadillac. Alfred P. Sloan started that when he was CEO of GM in the 1920s, and called it the "ladder of success".   Vestiges of the hierarchy hung around for decades thereafter, but as parts commonality increased, it became something of a joke.  Robert Lutz, GM CEO in 2006, says "We destroyed the GM hierarchy". He saw that as a loss of focus for Pontiac. --John Nagle (talk) 17:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Pontiac (the Chief)
Shoulnt there be a page for Pontiac the Native American leader???? DISAMBIGUATION needed! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.35.54.66 (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Too Long?
There's a "too long" marker on the article. Why? I'm not even that much into cars and I think this article was just about fitting. I didn't read it all, though, just the chapters that interrested me, but different people are interrested in different things. 194.144.18.242 (talk) 23:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Virgil Exner
Hi, I would welcome any inputs from Pontiac afficionados to my enquiry at Talk:Virgil Exner. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 06:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Pontiac in Popular Culture
I removed this section because the entries are either: a) Unverifiable b) Original Research or c) POV.

If there are any objections, please say so. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

What aforementioned Buick engine?
In the middle of the article you mention "the aforementioned Buick 215 V8 engine". However, this is the first and only mention of it. I assume you are talking about the aluminum block engine which GM introduced in the early '60s. You need to mention the engine and give some details before referencing it again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.237.190.201 (talk) 21:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

What kind of Pontiac?
From a certain amount of clicking round, I've established that this car is on the government's database (not always a very reliable source) here in England as having been manufactured in 1937. And I THINK it is a Pontiac de Luxe sedan. Is anyone able to confirm or correct my beliefs on this, please? There's not (not yet?...) too much on the history of Pontiac back in the 30s, I guess because none of us is old enough to remember. Thank you for any thoughts. Regards Charles01 (talk) 14:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Legal Status
The article states that the Pontiac brand's future fate (ownership-wise) will be decided by the bankruptcy courts as part of Old GM. I don't believe this is correct. Like Oldsmobile, New GM appears to have retained the name and branding rights, while forefitting assets, technology, and debt from the ventures to Old GM.

My evidence for this? GM's refusal to even review offers on the table to sell the Pontiac brand. GM can't on one hand say that it isn't for sale, and then leave it as part of Old GM for the courts to then sell.

It appears that the Auto Task Force forced the shuttering of Pontiac, but left New GM the option of returning it as a niche brand in the future. 208.53.70.19 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:24, 22 July 2009 (UTC).

Hearing no objections... removed the erroneous info from the article. Anyone want to write a non-speculative statement about GM retaining the brand, possibly for future use (post-government ownership). GM Executives have said they have "no current plans", which is consistent with what the Auto Task Force demanded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris Price (talk • contribs) 09:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Fieros?
Hey, just a suggestion...if you're going to include fieros, how about pix of the two best...1988 GT & Formula - in red, of course! ...(get rid of the two notchback firetraps)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 (talk) 19:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure! Can you get us some? They have to be original pictures (not taken off the web or from a copyrighted source). Help us out! WP:BEBOLD --Manway (talk) 00:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * One of those two "notchback firetrap" pics is my 88 Formula. For the record, ALL Formulas were notchbacks, and NO Fiero is a firetrap if they were maintained properly. It is actually one of the safest cars of its time. Get your facts straight before you start trashing our cars.--jonrev (talk) 20:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

the great car —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.161.30 (talk) 12:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Rumors of my demise...
The opening sentence of the article says:

Pontiac was a brand of automobile that was produced from 1926 to 2010. So, what's with the past tense, "was a brand"? As I write this (29-Oct-2010) Pontiacs are still being proudly sold in showrooms everywhere, and it will continue to be so for yet some time -- ok, two more days, according to The New York Times. But that means Pontiac ain't dead yet.

And even when sales end, so long as there are still millions (who knows, perhaps tens of millions?) of Pontiacs still on the road, as there will surely be for many years to come, any use of the past tense, especially in the first and defining sentence of the article, seems irresponsibly premature.

Nope, sorry... Pontiac is a brand of automobile that was produced from 1926 to 2010.

(Note: This writer has never owned, driven, nor had any special affection for Pontiacs -- nor disaffection, for that matter.) Toddcs (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)