Talk:Pontiac Firebird/Archive 1

POV Statement?
The following:
 * The Firebird remains one of the most attractive, versatile, and well-balanced vehicle designs in automotive history. It is comfortable, and fun to drive. Easily affordable by anyone, it, alongside Chevrolet's Camaro, continues its reign as the premier sports car of America's working class.

Seems very POV. especially since it conflicts with the paragraph above. My initial reaction was to whack this piece, but I figured discussion was in order. Wikibofh 20:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * this is true. its a true muscle car and its a shame it has been discontinued.
 * Kill it. Very much POV with absolutely no sources cited. Roguegeek 06:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Having cruised through the 60's and on, my impression is that the Firebird was an "also ran" next to the Camaro (though I've owned classic Firebirds and prefer them). The Camaro was cheaper, more publicized, sold more units, and has always been more embedded in the street culture, giving it more standing in the "working class sports car" title round. The first two generations (of Camaro and Firebird) were guilty of tremendous understeer and scrubbing with V8 installed (the bigger the V8 or earlier the car, the worse the understeer) - to be fair, this is true of most musclecars from this period. Third generation became better balanced, but by then there's a lot of competition in this marketspace. "Easily affordable" is terribly subjective. The paragraph should go.Voideater 04:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge to Firebird.
I fully agree that it should be merged. This article is lacking major information and what is here will benefit the Firebird article. The T/A is a submodel of the Firebird.


 * No, they are two seperate cars


 * No, keep them as different pages. They are not that similar.


 * What the hell are you talking about? A firebird is a Trans Am. It is a more sporty model like the Iroc-Z is to the Camaro.


 * Directed at the line above, a Trans Am is a certain model of firebird, not the other way around. In the case of the 4th generation, the Firebird was the V6 model and the Fomula Firebird and Trans Am where V8 models.  Not all Firebirds are Trans Ams.


 * Keep em' seperate, PLEASE! They're 2 different autos.
 * YES, merge the two. Trans Am is "just" an option package for the Firebird - it is a Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, simply a matter of factual information.  And yes, I've owned them.Voideater 04:59, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, so will somebody merge them finally? Bravada, talk - 10:54, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * They should absolutely be merged together. "Trans Am" was considered a trim/package and NOT it's own model. GM stated this if you look at previous versions of the Pontiac web site. Edmunds also currently does as stated here and if you know anything about automotive data, you know Edmunds is the definitive version of it. If you can state reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia that show otherwise (which you wont), let's see them. Otherwise, I'll be merging these two article together in a week. Don't forget to use proper Wiki formats when using discussions and sign your posts so we can see historical information. I'm almost thinking we shouldn't even include the comments that aren't signed. Roguegeek 06:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes Merge them the Trans Am was a Performance and Appearence package for the Pontiac Firebird. From http://www.musclecarclub.com/ "In March of 1969, Pontiac released a little publicized option package, the Trans Am Performance and Appearance Package. Conceived to campaign in the SCCA's road racing series (with a special 303 cubic inch V8 which was never offered in production cars), Pontiac paid a $5 license fee to SCCA for each Trans Am sold to use the name. Offered as a $725 option, only 689 Firebird coupes and 8 convertibles (talk about a collectible) were built. Although not appearent at the time, the Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, along with the Chevrolet Corvette, would be the only American high performance cars that would remain in continuous production since their inception. The Trans Am came standard with the HO engine with Ram Air (also called the Ram Air III). The only engine option was the 400 Ram Air IV, ordered on just 55 coupes. All Trans Ams were Polar White with blue racing stripes, tail panel, and decals. The exclusive hood had functional air intakes which could be closed by the driver and functional fender scoops designed to vent the engine bay. A 60 inch rear foil (spoiler) was mounted on the trunk. Although the Trans Am was no faster than similarly equiped Firebirds, it represented the peak of Pontiac performance excitement."
 * They should be keep merged, just have a section on the Trans Am optoin package


 * Excellent! Early next week, we'll merge unless someone can present sources otherwise. Roguegeek 17:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good! 66.167.231.136 18:27, 18 August 2006

So it is decided Trans Am will be merged into Firebird. I started looking into how that was going to be done and, for the life of me, have no idea where to put the information. The problem I'm seeing is there isn't much, if any, unique information in Trans Am that isn't already talked about in Firebird. It almost seems like just turning the Tran Am page into a redirect page to Firebird is good enough. Anyone have some thoughts on how to merge Trans Am over? Roguegeek 11:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit 04/06/06
I removed the "Brochure" section because all the links were broken

this is the problem with most people. They dont know the difference but if you own one or are a person who is into cars you know the difference right off the bat

Links
• Some of the links, particularly thirdgen.org, have more ads than content. I suggest deleting overly commercial links. Your thoughts? seaphoto 14:52 10 June 2006
 * I agree. 24.228.52.75 15:44, 30 June 2006
 * Any commercial ad should immediately. Wikipedia does not allow external links like that. Roguegeek 20:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Thirdgen.org has a ton of content, and very few ads that sit on the side. The website is also "tech only", any off topic discussions are not allowed. Removing this link would be a horrible idea.
 * I agree with the above, I own a firebird and have gotten more useful information about it from thirdgen.org than from every other website I have visited combined. The ads pay for the site content, and they are all for firebird parts anyways. [Tom '88 formula]
 * I'll agree with this also. Not familiar with the site, but upon inspection, it seems to be a great resource to keep here. It's not like any site with ads on it has to be pulled down. It just can't be a commercial site. Thirdgen.org will definitely stay. I like the fact we're discussing external links that get posted here. Being a big contributer to the Chevrolet Camaro article, I hope there's more discussion like this in there also. :) Roguegeek 06:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• you could add this external link to the GM movie Design For Dreaming referred to under Trivia: http://www.archive.org/details/Designfo1956 DyNama 14:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Future Firebird
Good call pulling out that section. There is absolutely no legitimate reference that can be used to support that there might be a future vehicle. It's a subject that was solely brought on by fan support and nothing else. Simply a non-encyclipedic subject and shouldn't be a part of this article. Roguegeek 21:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Video Games
I believe that the Firebird has been neglected from video games. All the games it's been in lately have been action/arcade style. No simulators have used Firebirds.