Talk:Pony Express/Archive 1

Removed historical precedent error
The Pony express was not the first unified transcontinental postal service in Europe since the time of the roman empire; among other systems, there is a link in this article to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_delivery_by_animal that describes the Thurn und Taxis' private system in Europe. This is only one of many. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.108.49 (talk) 06:39, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Rapid Transit
"The Pony Express was the first rapid transit"

This isn't really my area but I don't see what the Pony Express has to do with rapid transit. Cjrother 17:43, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I've removed that (since no one seemed to mind). Cjrother 19:34, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How can you not see how it is related to rapid transit??? That is what the pony express was about, being rapid transit of messages/packages! Mathmo


 * I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but to me, and the nice people at wikipedia, rapid transit relates to the transportation of people. Cjrother 01:02, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see. Must be another one of these american usages of words, guess if I'd remembered more carefully my americanisms I'd have realised they had a rather narrow definition of this phrase. Sorry, from the american slant it now makes more sense to remove that phrase for the sake of other americans.

Bias
I have attempted to remove the more biased statements in this article. I also added two sentences on how the PE has entered American myth, though its skewed treatment in American history classes should be elaborated on. -Acjelen 17:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you went overboard - an assessment of significance is only "biased" if there is considerable disagreement, and if there is disagreement, then you should be able to cite who disagrees. Also, the "orphans preferred" thing is a recently-disproved myth (somebody actually went through all the contemporary newspapers); it was reported recently in my newspaper, saved it somewhere around here... Stan 23:02, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I had particular problem with the following statements (1) "Yet it was of the greatest importance in binding the East and West together" as the Pony Express operated for such a limited time period and (2) "The Pony Express marked the highest development in overland travel prior ..." as lone riders delivering the mail can hardly match the thousands of men, women, children, and families who crossed the American West prior to and after the Pony Express. -Acjelen 00:36, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I suppose "greatest" and "highest" are undesirable because it's unclear what quality measure we're using that makes them valid superlatives. For "greatest" I would suggest "considerable" and perhaps amplify that it was more important as a suggestion of what was possible than for length of service, and for "highest" we want to say "fastest" but that adjective doesn't quite fit. The pioneers aren't quite comparable because in the perception of many folks back home, they were on a one-way trip and as good as dead. The Pony Express was the "most regular and predictable service using overland travel" - a mouthful that the word "highest" attempts to summarize. Stan 05:35, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fees
New International Encyclopedia contains some figures about the fees and the salaries earned by the riders.
 * At first the fee was five dollars for a half-ounce (15.55 gm) letter. Later, the charge was reduced to two dollars and fifty cents.
 * Riders were paid from one-hundred dollars to one-hundred and twenty-five dollars per month.
 * Superslum 00:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The fee must have been further reduced according to the July 1860 poster.
 * -- Unicorn Tapestry  {say}  12:39, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Renaming the article
Shouldn't we rename the article so it won't cause confusion with New Jersey Transit's Pony Express? I Am Ri¢h 15:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you referrring to the Atlantic City Line? While humorous, "Pony Express" is only its nickname. -Acjelen 18:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the North Jersey Coast Line runs a special train from September to May from Hoboken to Monmouth Park called the Pony Express. I Am Ri¢h 06:14, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

no i dont think it will cause confusion i think that everyone knows what the pony express is.user:unicornsareawesome — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2014‎ 67.244.141.48 (talk • contribs) 13 November

Book about Pony Express
http://www.umbc.edu/corbett/ This looks interesting. The "Orphans preferred" ad line would be cool in the article. Phr 07:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Relay stations
I noticed the "citation needed" tag about the relay stations every 10 miles. On this website it says:


 * Relay stations were placed 10 miles apart. Every third station was a home station, where extra ponies, firearms, men, and provisions were kept. Here, the mail would be handed over to a new rider.

So it confirms the 10 mile thing, but suggests that ponies were changed only every 30 miles. I say "suggests" because it seems ambiguous to me--if "extra ponies" were only kept at the home stations, then it would seem like that's where you would change them, but if you changed riders and ponies at the home stations, why wouldn't you say so? What do you do at the regular stations if not change ponies? Maybe there's one pony at the relay station and not "extra ponies"?

Anyway, seems worth clarifying. Nareek 11:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If ponies were not changed every 10 miles, what would be the point of a relay station? You wouldn't be relaying anything. I would interpret that paragraph as meaning that every 10 miles, the rider swapped to a new pony, then every 30 miles, the rider and pony were changed. Also, all that extra stuff was permanently stored at these "home stations" - the "home base" for the ponies was at the "home stations", but during the day they were walked out to these relay stations to await the mail? Stevage 11:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, if all the horses at the home stations were changed and part of the relay, they would hardly be "extra". Perhaps the author meant to include the extra horses with the firearms, provisions, and men: useful things to have in case of emergency. -Acjelen 13:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

San Diego route
I took out this sentence:


 * (There were routes that ran from the official Pony Express route to San Diego, California and points north and south along the route).

If that claim is (which I doubt) in needs some citations and deserves its own section. The Pony Express had major infrastructure requirements (e.g., the frequent stations/horses/riders, etc.). It's hard to believe their could be "feeder" routes just arbitrarily spinning off. Even if it is true this article is about the St. Joseph-Sacramento route. Americasroof 02:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Image placement
I Firefox, the image in the Route section appears above a portion of the text. In MS Internet Explorer, the label edit appears above an image on the margin (Post Office running logo). I did not manage to fix this using wiki tools, and I would rather avoid resorting to html. Can someone please help me? Thanks. Cema 03:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Update - And in Firefox, it is worse. Several edit buttons of the bottom four or five sections are hidden below the strip of images on the right. This badly needs fixing. Thank you! Cema 03:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Weapons
The article is inconsistent on whether a weapon was carried. The earlier entry says they were paid well because they were subject to attack (which I think was an unsubstantiated POV addition). A recent edit today says they carried either a rifle or revolver. I knocked off the earlier comment but applied a fact template on the weapon. Americasroof 21:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. But i think they might have had shotguns and revolvers..... i still need something to back that up....... Robinhood754 (talk) 14:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * They sure do. Cheesemaster123 (talk) 01:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't note it at the time of reading, but a book published at the time of the Pony Express Centennial stated that riders were forbidden to carry long guns (not sure about pistols). The reasons were twofold: (1) When fractions of ounces were important, a gun added unnecessary weight and (2) the company wanted the riders to move the mail and not stand and fight.
 * -- Unicorn Tapestry  {say}  12:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Nova Scotian Pony Express (1849)
For those of you who are interested in adding to this topic, perhaps you would like to include something about a run in Canada. Lots of information has been compiled at this site, including photos of a monument and scans of newspaper clippings from the time period.

http://ns1763.ca/annapco/ponyexmon.html

The interesting thing about this pony express is that it did not carry mail, only news from overseas! 200.140.129.208 15:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC) Scotian Gold

They really should have shotguns and revolvers....Cheesemaster123 (talk) 23:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Utah government source
Hello, i've found this web page and feel that several mentioned aspects from there arent reflected in the article. see http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/pioneers_and_cowboys/theponyexpressaddedacolorfulchapterinutah.html --Alexander.stohr (talk) 01:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

time error
Hello, I'm french. Are you sure about this date: By 1860, the fastest route was the Butterfield Stage

It's by 1860 or 1850? Pony was in 1860, so it must be before...--90.44.92.209 (talk) 11:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Bonjour! The date cannot be 1850 because the Butterfield Overland Mail did not start until 1857, according to that article. I think what the author (not me) meant to say was: In 1860 the fastest route was the Butterfield Stage but then the Pony Express came along and was much faster. Neswa (talk) 09:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Rider physical description
I removed this text from the introductory paragraph: they looked for young skinny wiry men who were in good health and were willing to risk their lives to transport mail I dare say it's a true statement, but it doesn't fit in the introductory paragraph, at least not as it was positioned. The point is made, though in other words, later on in the article. The text appears to have originated with the anonymous poster 70.129.180.113. Jackrepenning (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC) ~hmmm... I thought there was an ad that said something like that? Mathmo Talk 09:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Pony Express Russian mentioned

 * I doubt that this information is relevant to the article or a Russian company Pony Express can be considered notable in accordance with WP:COMPANY. Please note that the company adopted, without any legal ground, not only the name, but the year of establishment and logo. So, I think any mentioning of this company in the article should be deleted. --Michael Romanov (talk) 02:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Frequency
hello, i am writing a paragraph about the pony express and are there any other good websites that would help? to awnser your question i think they would deliver evrey other day and i think they would switch from horse to horse so the other rider could have a rest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.190.134 (talk) 16:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * How often did they run the mail? Twice a week? Every other day? Daily? 400 horses for 200 hundred stations means 2 horses per station. I suppose a horse would have to rest some time before running a again a full gallop for 15 km. Maybe 2 days' rest would be enough, (meaning a daily run) I know nothing about horses. Would the riders ride daily and the horses every other day?

Day tripper
I removed "for a 12-hour day's labor", because it's not really a relevant point, & because it makes for an awkward construction. (It's also not clear how it relates to the week in question, which IIRC would've been 6 days, or a 72h wk.)

On an unrelated point, the entire "Westbound" section has the smell of a copyvio.... TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  15:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Bankruptcy
As I post this, there is no mention in the article of the Pony Express's bankruptcy, and what year that happened. See this New York Public Library site: www.nypl.org/blog/2010/02/01/pony-express-history-and-myth or do a Google search. Needs attention by an expert, particularly the year, since apparently the assets were sold long after the line closed. 5Q5 (talk) 18:25, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

More modern uses of the name?
Just wondering about this, because I could swear there was - possibly still is - a motorcycle courier operation in the UK using the name. Maybe actually as part of the company that owns the trademark, or operating under license from it... That or they were strictly small time and confined to my local area, but very visible. (Regular small plane flights have probably erased any need for them long-distance... but in most other ways they'd be the direct equivalent. Not carrying much more weight in total, and possibly operating a similar relay system in some places, and needing younger, fitter riders (to deal quickly with stairs at delivery points, for example!) but a heck of a lot faster overall... certainly more than the 7.5 - 15mph or so as stated in the text for the originals) 193.63.174.10 (talk) 12:28, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Pony_ExpressAdvert.jpg ("Riders Wanted" poster) source?
Several points here: I say this image needs to be removed until/unless RS can be found for it. Wilsonchas (talk) 16:34, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No RS is provided for this depiction
 * RS footnotes in section convey some doubt as to authenticity of text in depiction
 * Although I'm not qualified to adjudicate a Killian documents controversy, fonts, layout, etc. of depiction appear anachronistic to my untrained eye (compare at left to Pony_Express_Poster.jpg at right)

Followup: I've deleted the image. Wilsonchas (talk) 14:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've found no RS;
 * no other talk posted on the matter.

I support the deletion. The overwhelming majority of references I've seen to this advertisement are that it came from a newspaper. The poster appears to be a fake and likely spawned later references to the ad being a "poster." Being very familiar with mid 19th century advertising, the layout, graphics and fonts are not at all convincing. I, and others apparently, have not found this ad in San Francisco papers of 1860, suggesting this is fiction based on fiction. The footnote about this should be deleted and the text perhaps edited to say "supposedly" rather than "reportedly" to make it clear there is no proof it existed. Declair (talk) 00:05, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I would think that an ad with /some/ historic backing could be used in its place? maybe (pg 7)? Or at least replace the alleged text for the ad?

Layout
There's something weird about the layout of this article, with acres of empty whitespace. Floating some images and removing the Clear and TOC left templates might help. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

fastest mail service section - 1860 election results ?
"On November 7, 1860, a Pony Express rider departed Fort Kearny, Nebraska Territory (the eastern end of the telegraph line) with the election results. Riders sped along the route, over snow-covered trails and into Fort Churchill, Nevada Territory (the western end of the telegraph line). California’s newspapers received word of Lincoln’s election only seven days and 17 hours after the East Coast papers, an unrivaled feat at the time."

First: like Nebraska would be the western end of the eastern line and nevada would be the eastern end of the western line. The wording is confusing. Second (out of scope ?): How was it that (popular) election results (national ?) from a November 6th election were known on November 7th ? Even assuming california's popular vote was same day tallied, how did that information get to the east coast ? (the electoral college met on february 11, 1861 and voted on february 13, 1861)

OK sorry i have answered my own question about election results. With early returns form 14 states teh new yourk tribune calculated that lincoln was expected to have enough electoral votes for victory. California and oregon were also expected to go to lincoln, but he already had enough electoral votes without them. Here is a link to the new york tribune, november 7, 1860 page 4. Results are near top of second column. http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030213/1860-11-07/ed-1/seq-4/;words=New+York+7+new

I would still like to know how they counted and tabulated and reported results but that is not the scope of pony express

"Pony Express" as an idiom
Pony Express as an idiom for a very slow postal service ("you've been waiting for your package for a week? Did they send it by Pony Express?"), would it warrant a mention? 125.253.96.160 (talk) 13:25, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Promotional use of references
I've fixed references to books - changed to simple ref with isbn from the previous linkage to websites selling books. I've also removed a large image of Pony Express postmarks which had a reference link to the website of stamp collector/dealer who sells such material. We don't need that image and certainly don't promote commercial interests. Vsmith (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)