Talk:Poodle/Archive 2

Request for comment on how to describe the dispute over the origin of the poodle

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the dispute over the origin of the poodle be framed in line with the wording at this version which I'll call version 1 for the sake of discussion or this which I'll call version 2? Doug Weller talk 08:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support Version 1 Details in threaded discussion below but in short I feel version 2 has WP:PEACOCK and WP:NPOV problems. Simonm223 (talk) 14:17, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Version 1 "95 countries" wording is awkward and is arguably WP:OR. Further, It is within WP:NPOV to plainly state first the FCI's stance and then the stance of the anglophone organizations. I think it would also be acceptable to add a comment about the German association's stance after listing the anglophone claims. Rosguill (talk) 20:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Version 1 My issue with version 2 is the tone; it also appeals to the number of member countries which has nothing to do with history accuracy (more like an opinion poll assessed by the editor (WP:SYNTH)). Version 1 also sensibly mentions France without sensational language.  I have other concerns about the sources but they'll be addressed in another section (out of the scope of this RFC).  — Paleo  Neonate  – 01:59, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Version 1 seems to be better written and avoids puffery. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Version 1, version two is horribly worded and appears to POV pushing. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 20:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC).
 * Version 1. per above. -  R9tgokunks   ⭕  23:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Version 1 reads better and seems to cover the issue in more detail. I didn't take a really long look though. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants   Tell me all about it.  04:34, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Version 1 is neutral and informative, and clearly better. The sentence On the other hand the origin of the poodle is disputed amongst only 3 countries out of 95 worldwide in Version 2 smacks of WP:Editorializing. Appealing to a strange sort of 'headcount of countries' to justify the obvious POV is just, well, odd. Girth Summit  (blether) 15:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * version 1; this is not ambiguous per high quality sources, NPOV, and OR. Jytdog (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion
I think there are two issues, both of which involved our WP:NPOV policy. One is how we word the view of the FCI. I think User:Gabriel HM's wording is inappropriate in the way it suggests that the numbers show that the 3 kennel clubs who don't follow the FCI should be dismissed (that's the way I read it).

Also, this is to some extent a political issue of national pride, especially noting that the German kennel club was evidently more interested in avoiding disputes than anything else, and frankly I suspect that almost all of the members (the numbers vary according to whether you count only full members or all categories) other than France and Germany aren't very interested in the dispute so using them as an argument is meaningless. "On the other hand the origin of the poodle is disputed amongst only 3 countries out of 95 worldwide" makes little sense as there are more than 95 countries and the "3" are not members of the FCI.

2nd issue: why rely solely on these organisations? Should organisations such as these be presented in the article as the arbiters of what is really an issue for history, biology, etc? Doug Weller  talk 08:21, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Your argumentation could be right if and if I was trying to erase your small three references. On the contrary I never touched them. The one that keeps erasing the fact that the vast majority of the countries worldwide are stating the poddle as being as a French breed, it is you with your constant deletions assorted with threats of POV that do not follow the rules of wiki. I am very sorry if I rely on the “mere” 95 kennel clubs members worldwide compared to the 3 kennel clubs that you are stating. What is the most sad it that even Germany declare the poodle as being French. And as I quote you “Why such an obessession against a dog breed origin?” You own a poodle and you are afraid of French bashing?? Just kidding :) And the fact that the only 3 countries out of 100 see the poodle as a French breed should be more than enough to stop this ludicrous war edit. But if you are able to bring better insight info about the deep origin of the poodle, better than the experts that states that this dog come the Barbet, an old French breed descending from the barbarian steppes of North Africa, please, bring some real documented reliable and pertinent sources, but good luck, because up to now, the poodle is a Mediterranean breed such as the bichon, the Portuguese Water Dog, the Spanish water dog, the coton de tulear and so on. The was breed brought to Europe and standardised by France, after the arab conquest of the Iberian peninsula according to the best historians. I have solid ref, but If you want to argue on an arbitration level, I am well prepared.--Gabriel HM (talk) 12:09, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Version 2 seems a little bit less neutral. We have a situation where there's an outlier view from some significant organizations (notably the English speaking ones) and a majority view. And it's fine to frame it that way, but to exclude it altogether while simultaneously talking up the significance of the majority group feels like a weaker approach from a strictly WP:NPOV perspective. And for the sake of disclosing CoI - my dog is half-poodle and half-Shih Tzu and 100% Quebecois so I don't have a horse in this race. ;) Simonm223 (talk) 12:56, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Simonm223This issue is just to assert that the overwhelming majority of the countries states the poodle as a French breed. And don’t know why the 3 English speaking kennel clubs would have a better insight than the rest of the world. Furthermore may I remind you that these speaking English countries are just 3, and for the rest of then such Ireland, New Zealand Australia and so on, they all side for the French breed origin. Mais peut être qu’en tant que francophones, nous nous sommes mal compris sur cet échange cousin d’outre altlantique...--Gabriel HM (talk) 15:45, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * LOL - I can get by in french but neither I nor my dog are francophones (we adopted him in Ontario but he was sourced to a Quebecois breeder originally, it was a bit of a joke was all) - that said, the issue at play here is that the three kennel clubs in question may be a minority, but they still represent a pretty substandial bloc within dog breeding and I think it'd be inappropriate to leave out their opinion as undue. Nor do we need to call the majority that opposes them overwhelming when we can simply provide the necessary context by wikilinking to the appropriate supporting material. Simonm223 (talk) 15:49, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok you're now at 4 reverts. We've tried to explain to you the problem hear and your response is WP:IDHT - and now in response to me reporting you for clear brightline edit warring you're suggesting you'll take the matter to arbitration on my talk page? Good luck with that. Simonm223 (talk) 16:31, 27 August 2018 (UTC)


 * Emphasizing the 95 vs 3 distinction without a reliable source saying that this is significant is original research. The best solution, in my opinion, is to present the two opinions independently, as in Version 1. If editors are concerned that this gives undue weight to the anglophone organizations, this could be further supplemented by a line about the German kennel club's position clarifying that German kennel clubs do not identify the poodle as a German breed. Rosguill (talk) 20:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)


 * That seems reasonable. Simonm223 (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

,, . has been indefinitely blocked and I vote that we disregard his comments and conrtibutions and move forward with version 1 (Doug Weller's version) as there is a unanimous consensus for it (WP:SNOWBALL.) Edit: for transparancies sake, I've removed this content: '' Due to the breed's popularity in France, it was claimed to be a national breed. '' The source included literally doesn't mention France at all. It appears as if someone faked the sourcing in order to include that sentence. - R9tgokunks   ⭕  23:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems reasonable. What an incredibly strange hill to die on Rosguill (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Canis aquaticus" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Canis aquaticus. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 15 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TheAwesome Hwyh  18:42, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Generally a good article but lots of unnecessary repeats - eg on the breeds intelligence.

Secondly, the article needs to be much, much more formal. Nothing says ‘amateur’ more than cliches like ‘blows them away’ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:2682:3C00:DCA6:BE38:9A29:89E0 (talk) 08:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2021
Merle is not a naturally occuring color in the breed and is a sign that the dog has been mixed with another breed at some point in the past. Merle is considered a fault. 35.2.70.124 (talk) 04:25, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Merle is sometimes introduced to other purebred dog breeds through crossbreeding, but these dogs are not purebred and cannot be registered with any reputable kennel club. [10] Just recently the UK Kennel Club (the oldest in the World) has banned the registration of merle Poodles as they are not and never have been a colour recognised in pure Poodles. https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media-centre/2020/january/registration-of-dogs-of-merle-colouring/

Mardyscot (talk) 14:37, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

German Kennel Club
The German Kennel Club breed standard states: "The origin of the poodle comes from France, where they are called caniche and were formerly bred for duck hunting", just to add to the debate. William Harris (talk) 05:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The addition in the infobox is one I was doubtful about. I have read somewhere that the FCI declared the breed French to appease the French Kennel Club and the German Kennel Club acquiesced, but until I can relocate the source I think I will remove it. Cavalryman (talk) 10:11, 21 March 2021 (UTC).
 * I believe we have a debate based on the AKC, that because the English ruling class preferred the use of the German word "poodle" rather than the French "caniche", then it must be of German origin. A similar debate could be made over the English-preferred "Great Dane", known on the continent as the German mastiff; nothing to do with Denmark. It all depended on who the British Empire was against at the time of introduction and naming. William Harris (talk) 20:45, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I suspect this is one where the AKC are in the majority (who knows what is right), I can find one secondary source that states France is the most likely country of origin. It appears consensus view among independent writers (not FCI) is the Standard Poodle developed in Germany and the smaller sizes were all subsequently developed in France. Cavalryman (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2021 (UTC).
 * As we know, dog clubs are only reliable sources for their breed standards and not the histories of dogs. I am happy with the independent writers' consensus. A 75kb article of unreliable or no sourcing has been neatly trimmed down to 24kb of reliable sourcing; well done. William Harris (talk) 05:34, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2021
194.78.40.90 (talk) 13:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC) I would like to add info please
 * Full-protection-shackle-no-text.svg Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:22, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2021
Second sentence, it reads "dived". Should be "divided". Under HISTORY, 3rd paragraph, 1st sentence, "... frequently employed employed in circuses...." I think one "employed" is sufficient. 2601:600:A080:89A0:6C52:957A:60C6:5B73 (talk) 20:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Vahurzpu (talk) 20:53, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Non-encyclopedic tone
The article, especially the breed description, reads as positively biased. Vocabulary and phraseology could be adjusted and abbreviated to make for a more neutral tone. Iisakki (talk) 22:08, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Please fix
I needed to add a couple of wikilinks to this article, but it seems to be protected from editing. Please fix this situation! 173.88.246.138 (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Please tell us what needs to be fixed, or create an account. --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 22:24, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 04:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * IP, the page has been protected to prevent vandalism which was frequently occurring. If you wish to edit the page, feel free to register an account. Otherwise please outline here what you would like to add to the article and, if it is of benefit to the article, a registered editor will do so. Cavalryman (talk) 05:08, 22 December 2021 (UTC).

Redirects
Redirects were a bit of a mess; half of them went to sections that don't exist, Standard Poodle goes to a different part of the page than Standard poodle, etc. I've cleaned up a little, but I'm not sure if the history subsection about the variants or the top of the page is the best link for Standard poodle, Toy poodle, etc, so I've held off on changing those for now. The section has the most in-depth treatment of them but it's also weirdly focused and doesn't mention the standard variant at all, except as the implicit default. Rusalkii (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2022 (UTC)