Talk:Pop icon/Archive 1

POV issues
Following text removed from original article for POV reasons:


 * Most pop icons are Caucasian, simply because the white majority of the Western world still has difficulty accepting people such as Selena Quintanilla or Tupac Shakur into the anglocentric pop mythology, though Martin Luther King appears to have joined the pantheon.

Davodd 23:14, May 25, 2004 (UTC)

Michael Jackson seems to make this POV untrue, doesn't it? And when was Tupac ever a pop singer? RickK 23:17, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

wheres arnie??????

Similarly, Lara Croft is mentioned in the section: Some pop icons, such as Mickey Mouse, Mario, Lara Croft, Winnie the Pooh, Bugs Bunny, Shrek, Pikachu, Jack Bauer, Superman, Spider-Man and Homer Simpson, are fictional characters. a distinction needs to be made from something that is a true pop icon, where 99% of people in the culture recognize it to something that was fairly popular within a circle of people a few years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.234.76.110 (talk) 15:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Janet jackson
who keeps removing Janet Jackson from the list she is a notable pop icon so do not remove her Madonna and Michael Jackson did not get honored as Mtv Icons she did she recevied many legend awards so stop it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by anonyomous-dunno-who-20061212-fixthis (talk • contribs) ^^ Who keeps Taking Janet off and Mariah???


 * If you want to add names to the list, you need to support it with a REFERENCE to a reliable source. Promotional and marketing material does not count. "MTV icon" does not count, as MTV is a wholly owned subsidiary of Viacom, who makes revenue from promoting and hyping artists. Please stop adding names to the list unless you have a reliable citation to back it up. dr.ef.tymac 20:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you watch MTV Icon?? How could you even say it doesn't count. Explain that to me please but I will surely correct you. That tribute was mega huge for Janet and a great moment for Janet fans of all ages. Also, MTV named previous Icons which include Michael, Prince, and Madonna but she is the only one who got a special.Oh, the VH1 Pop Icons special with Britney Spears source is from. Janet, Whitney, and Mariah also made that list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.193.233 (talk) 20:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

MTV Icon has since been canceled and defunct, and therefor they should not be a basis for judging icon status.NewDestroyer (talk) 06:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

subjectivity of names
This list is very subjective in my mind. Why is John Lennon listed twice, both as a solo artist and with the Beatles? Why isn't Paul McCartney on here then? Why were highly notable pop icons like Janet Jackson, Aerosmith, and Jon Bon Jovi removed...who continue to be more visible pop icons than Bob Dylan? Why is the lead singer of Blonide even mentioned in the article? Talk about a flash in the pan. And why are there hardly any actors/actresses, athletes, etc. listed? I know it's just for example, but maybe there should be an article with a list of pop icons, with actual criteria or something. 131.156.238.75 18:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

re-adding content flagged as "original research" ;; tsid20061211_074444_889
Supporting citations include (but not limited to) (ref name="OJTrial000") and (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/jackson/story/0,,1402671,00.html). Please note: at the time of this comment, these are the only authorities supplied in support of this article so far. Hopefully others can join in, following my lead by adding verifiable content and supporting citations. Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 15:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

article re-work
This article has undergone a substantial re-work for 1) clarity; 2) structure; and 3) verifiability. Previously, there were no references at all for this article, and very little structure. Please note that this article still needs review for a potential U.S.A.-centric bias, also note that more citations are appropriate. If you wish to revert this article, please include an explanation in discussion. Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 19:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: To Downtownstar it seems you have reverted the page twice without giving details for what specifically the problem is. Your edit summaries are a tad cryptic. Please feel free to discuss here the reasons for the reverts, so we can work together to continue to improve the article. Thanks! dr.ef.tymac 22:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry. Your editing is actually excellent now that I take a good look at it. At first it seemed like a bunch of uncitated nonsense, but this is no longer the case. Downtownstar 15:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Beyonce is not a Pop Icon,..if she is...Alicia Keys is, Christina Aguilera is.

I dont agree with Christina and Mariah
While they both have had very successful careers, they have left no mark in pop culture. Paula Abdul and Cyndi Lauper were very successful, but are they pop culture icons? No. I think Christina and Mariah fall under the same categorey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.171.42.13 (talk) 04:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Mariah IS indeed a pop icon. She was one of the first artists to mix R&B and pop music. While I am not a fan of either Christina OR Mariah, I do think that they are both indeed pop icons. In my opinion, Christina is the ONLY white pop singer with an actual VOICE. It is just a shame that people thing that "Guns N' Roses", "Kurt Cobain", "Rihanna", "Miley Cyrus" etc. are pop icons, but not real talent such as Mariah, Christina, Diana Ross, Donna Summer and even the Beatles.--Skye 0913 (talk) 17:12, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Whitney HOUSTON

Why isn't she on the list????To be HONEST we dont even need a "source" because the WORLD knows she's a ICON —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.252.85.177 (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

-- Totally agree withe above. Britney and Christina have added nothing new to neither pop or the world.

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BetacommandBot 09:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove Notable pop icons section?
The section is a mess with people constantly adding at times ridiculous claims of pop icons, the list is way to long and dosent really add anything usefull to the article as a whole. Or at least have a demand of having a reliable source when you add icons.// --Nirvana77 (talk) 13:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've started a section "Problems with the article", which also focuses primarily on the "Notable pop icons" section. --Tony Sidaway 16:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Problems with the article
Apparently this is a very loose term used to distinguish people who have acquired some kind of long term fame or notoriety associated with popular culture. Hendrix, The Beatles, Elvis, Sinatra, Crosby, Jolson, and so on might be described as "pop icons" because they are strongly associated with, and in some ways personify, the zeitgeist of an era in popular culture. This includes film and other popular art forms, and sport (De Niro, Monroe, Bogart, Muhammad Ali, Pelé). It often includes people who died relatively young (Morrison, Hendrix, James Dean). So far so good.

Then there are people whose work wasn't primarily in or related to popular culture, but whose image has been co-opted as a pop icon (Einstein). Well, okay.

Now looking at the article, we see a section called "Notable pop icons" comprising, presently, some forty names. '''More than half of those names are sourced from a single news story based on a press release produced by a single media organisation in November, 2003. A further seven of them are based on a similar news story from a different media organisation in 2005''' The criterion for the list of 100 members given in the first news story, it turns out, is a viewer's poll by a single cable television channel, VH1 UK, from a shortlist drawn up by "A panel of celebrities and experts – including presenter June Sarpong, newsreader Krishnan Guru-Murthy and GQ editor Dylan Jones." Presumably the experts on the panel asked to remain anonymous.

Further examination of that single source also demonstrates that there are unexplained omissions from our list. If we assume for the moment that membership of the VH1 UK list (which is biased towards the tastes and cultural memory of the British viewership of that channel) is a sign of "pop icon" status, where is Princess Diana on our list? She's number 5 on the VH1 UK list but completely absent from ours. Similarly, The Simpsons (VH1 UK: number 6) and Robbie Williams (VH1 UK: number 9) are omitted from our list.

Looking in the opposite direction, Aerosmith is included in our list because MTV featured the band in a program called "MTV icons", but is nowhere to be seen in the VH1 100 (not surprising as the band, while not unknown in VH1's target market, isn't exactly a household name). And while VH1 UK lists first man on the moon Neil Armstrong at 76, his trumpet-playing namesake Louis Armstrong (selected as one of 100 "Icons of the Century" by Variety) is nowhere to be seen on VH1's chart.

There are also problems with the membership criteria of the sources. I've already mentioned the UK bias of the VH1 UK list (which goes some way to explain the presence of Beckham and Robbie Williams, both household names in the UK but not so well known elsewhere). The Variety list, for instance, sought to represent "every side of show business", so relatively obscure figures such as Arthur Freed (who wrote the lyrics for Singin' in the Rain and produced many hit films) are listed as "Icons of the Century". Clearly the people on the list are there because they're "iconic" in some sense, but not in the sense implied by this article.

Another thing that isn't addressed is the requirement of longevity. Can we include Britney Spears, who a mere decade ago was an unknown with a recording contract and an audacious concept for a pop video for her debut single? Britney Spears' career has hit an air pocket, and there's no way of knowing whether her image will recover in the public mind. Perhaps it's premature to describe this relative newcomer as a "pop icon". --Tony Sidaway 16:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If there are no objections, I'll go ahead and remove the list because of the problems described above. --Tony Sidaway 18:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that, currently, we have done a good job by requiring citations for each entry. But I do understand the dilemma that there are lists of 100s of different pop icons, and the question always comes up, "if you include this, why not this?" But remember, the list is purely examples, not meant to be all-inclusive. If we want to be all-inclusive of every person/thing ever cited as a pop icon, than maybe we should create a List of pop icons article.


 * Another solution might be to look at the similar article "sex symbol", which provides a good listing of examples in all eras and all formats (acting, music, etc.) listed within the text of the article (as opposed to an uncategorized bulleted list). It also seems to be more inclusive and provides more examples than the main text body of this article does, which I think is good. So, if we want to go this route, than I think that every pop icon currently listed & cited should be listed as an example within the main body of the text.


 * I also believe that more input should be actively sought out by other people who frequently edit or monitor this article, so that we can include more ideas and try to form a better consensus. Abog (talk) 05:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the basic concerns of Tony. I perused the list and saw some substantiated, but iffy inclusions.  I think this could best be resolved by requiring that for someone to be added to the list, we should be able to provide three reputable, and identifiable sources devoted specifically (though not necessarily exclusively) to that artist, describing them as a POP icon (ie. an article or at least a list with specific commentary (eg. Rolling Stone-style) over a shortlist or poll).  If someone is truly iconic, that should be a breeze.  This should be a very exclusive list.  Also, I initially though longevity wasn't so much an issue, but yeah, I would say that the person needs to have a iconic impact that exceeds ten years (which is the typical pop shelf-life, eg the 80s).  Which would probably still make Britney Spears eligible (which in my opinion she should be).--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 13:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia eternal-problem-article (WEPA): There was once an attempt at "adopting" this article. Believe it or not, it was actually much worse. There were *zero* citations and not even a skeletal structure, basically a free-for-all.
 * This is one of those articles that simply requires constant maintenance from someone who does not have a personal stake in the subject matter. This is a tall order for a volunteer project like WP, and a lot of articles are in this situation. This is one reason why so many "pop culture" entries are ... less than stellar.
 * As far as citations go, a good requirement would be *no* magazine or newspaper articles, and simply a requirement that all references come from published sources with an ISBN that are not fan-oriented or promotional (e.g., sociology, history, literary criticism, etc). This would weed out 90% of the questionable content, and any list would be much shorter. The problem is, for most people who might be inspired by this subject matter, that would entail a trip to an actual library. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 18:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * RFC comment: Where is Jesus? He is a pop icon, just look at all of the media on which He is printed. There was even a 70s musical called Jesus Christ Superstar. He is sold on almost everything imaginable.
 * As for sourcing this, I would say for inclusion requiring three sources for each, hopefully from different parts of the world. I don't think that Pop iconage would ever be published in a book unless the book was entirely on the subject. If there are any books out there, they would be skewed to the writer's pov. Other than that, I have no other suggestions. The only places that I can think of which might have pop icon topics are places like VH1 or MTV.
 * Sorry I couldn't be of more help. - LA @ 07:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

miley??
could Miley Cyrus be one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meliss402 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

go away 81.155.177.72 (talk) 00:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

LOL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.46.51.179 (talk) 03:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)