Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive 1

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This archive covers settled issues occuring April 19, 2005.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Pope Benedict XVI/Archive08. Thank you. Bratsche talk random 03:16, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

'''Note: This is for settled issues dealing with the Pope Benedict XVI article. Any new questions/comments/corrections should be directed to the article talk page. Thank you. Zscout370 20:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)'''

Info Boxes

 * Can someone who knows how to - get the Date and Place of Death out of the info box? Arcturus 20:18, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll try to fix it. --Gerald Farinas 20:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anniversaries
Today, by the way, is Primrose Day.

Why was the Early Life section removed?
I'm trying to restore it (once I find the last version), but I'm leaving a note since the WIki's so slow right now & it might take more time than I have. - SoM 18:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's back.

Article content dup
This page's content was duped in this edit. Could someone fix this. I would have done it myself but it seems to be protected. AlistairMcMillan 17:09, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Inaccurate quote causes disagreement
The piece from The Spectator says Pope John XXIII was 78 at the time of his selection of Pope. He was 76. This causes confusion when we read further down that Ratzinger is the oldest selected since Clement XII. Or one of the Clements anyway.

Honorary doctorates
A really meaningless fact. Bill Cosby has like eight of them. They tell us nothing about the man and certainly are no sort of qualification. I recommend this be removed.

What order is Cardinal Ratzinger from?
I've looked at several biographies and can't seem to tell?


 * I think he was a plain diocesan priest. He did not belong to any religious order. --Gerald Farinas 17:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First German Pope?
Will Cardinal Ratzinger be the first German Pope when he becomes Pope?
 * He who enters the conclave a pope leaves it a cardinal. But more helpfully, the existance of Category:German popes seems to suggest no. Gentgeen 06:37, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No. There were numerous several German popes in the middle ages. john k 06:37, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There was a whole string in the 11th century - Pope Clement II, Pope Damasus II, Pope Leo IX, Pope Victor II. john k 06:43, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe there should be a list compiled of Non-Italian Popes, such as Saint Peter and John Paul II


 * Benedict XVI would be the fifth pope elected from Germany, the sixth pope born in Germany. --Gerald Farinas 17:47, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * In fact, he is the 999,999,999,876th German pope, see Category:German popes. Pope Adrian VI (1522-1523) was the last German pope (the Netherlands where he was born were considered German at his time). Gestumblindi 18:35, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * This is incorrect. Adrianus VI is widely considered to be a dutch pope. Please also correct this in the article as well (reference to previous German pope). Have a look at the recent edits of the Pope_Adrian_VI page concerning his nationality


 * Benedict XVI is the first Pope of German descent since Adrian VI. Adrian was not German. Adambondy 20:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

External link
I notice that the only external link here is "Cardinal Ratzinger Fan Club website." Some of Carnial Ratzinger's position statements in his own words might be more revealing than this careful pap. --Wetman 07:04, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Wetman - the pope isn't dead yet, so your changes seem inappropriate. john k 20:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cardinal Ratzinger has now been elected, and two of the external links are currently fan pages ! Personally, I do not think such links really bring much to the page... Shouldn't we rather link to pages that may still be relevant in a few years, or at least a few months (thus excluding Blogs), and, when POV pages are included, not only have ONE POV but most of them ? [thus logically including "anti" pages...] --193.56.40.253 17:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Title
I don't see why "His Eminence" has to be in there, its not objective.


 * It is the style given to cardinals. In general, we list styles at the beginning of articles. john k 21:20, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * One would say "Your eminence" when directly addressing a Cardinal, "His eminence" when referring to him in his presence. Same goes for ambassadors, for example ("Your excellence"). The trouble is that we don't normally refer to an ambassador as "His Excellence" in a neutral, informal article. A preferential treatment of sorts is not NPOV, even when it's disguised as "style". (I'd say, especially when it's disguised as "style".)

GregorB 22:37, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

I think you can do it this way or that way without being POV, but personally I'd advocate sticking to the choice the original poster.

Str1977

Leading the Popes funeral
We should add something in here about him leading the papal funeral, it currently makes no reference to this.
 * Yes it does, in the first paragraph: He presided over the funeral of John Paul II and will also preside over the Conclave in 2005. - and please start new sections at the bottom of the page, it's easier to find them. -- Arwel 16:12, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tighten up this article
This article lacks "tightness." There are now three images, two of which are portrait-style images. I suggest moving the second image to the top (it's much better) and deleting the first image.

I don't see how the paragraph about Ratzinger's comment re: Pope's health in 2003 belongs in here. This was not a noteworthy event but a media tempest in a teapot; while the John Paul II was still alive it was perhaps of interest because of speculation about his health, but now that he has died in 2005 the comment from 2003 is, in hindsight, not particularly significant.

Some questions
We say "he was none-the-less forced to join the Hitler Youth when it became complulsory in 1941." Two questions: Since when was it voluntary to join the HJ before 1941? What actually happened in 1941 was that Ratzinger turned 14, the age at which it was compulsory to join. And in what sense was he "forced" to join? Do we just mean that he had no choice, or that some form of compulsion was applied to him specifically? Adam 08:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Further, what is our source for this?


 * Some of Cardinal Ratzingers strongest supporters include Rome's Camillo Ruini, head of the Italian Bishops' Conference, Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Angelo Scola of Venice and Sydney Archbishop George Pell, who all believe that fighting Western secularism is the most vital challenge.

As an Australian I can vouch for the fact that Pell, for one, has said nothing in public about his preferences. Adam 08:33, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I personally think Cardinal Ratzinger was a good choice and I hope his papacy is long and well. I also wish for yall to look a profile the BBC did on him in 2003. Zscout370 17:02, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I see a couple of dupicate sections here. Also, what about his stances and view points?

What did he do between his desertion/fleeing in April 1944 and his internment? Which Ally held him in what POW camp? - Morning star 17:54, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to CNN, he was captured by US troops and was interned a the US POW camp at Traunstein. - Mitsukai 19:48, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Age limit?
Is there really an age limit of 80 on popes? I thought that only applied to cardinals. -- Walt Pohl 17:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the only way the age limit is applied is to the cardinals when a conclave is being conducted. After the conclave, the age limit is pretty much not of concern, until this next pope passes away. Zscout370 17:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC
 * There is no age limit on Popes - indeed there was some speculation that Cardinal Gantin could be elected, even though he was ineligible to vote in the Conclave. Therefore we need to change the article to remove this factually incorrect information - Brendanconway (not logged in)--195.10.45.217 17:34, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why is this page protected ??

To whoever protected this article
Can we change that né (1st sentence) to born; it is better and simpler english. I was trying to make the change when the page was protected. -- Chris j wood 17:11, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It is not Better English, look at the né article and you will see that it is very adequate and it is the term used for all the preceding popes --Astrowob 17:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The né article says:


 * The French word née (feminine) or né (masculine) (sometimes written as nee by English speakers) is still commonly used in some newspapers when mentioning the former or maiden name of an individual in engagement or wedding announcements, and is sometimes archly extended to denote earlier names of companies and products.


 * which doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement (some newspapers, archly) of the wording myself. And the article on Pope John Paul II definately uses 'born' not 'né'. I was in process of editing this article to the same format as that when the protection came down. It looks like it is academic now, as an administrator has obviously made the change I was trying to make whilst the article was protected. -- Chris j wood 18:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== There is a duplication at the end of the article can someone who as the authorization fix it? --Astrowob 17:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, the categories need to be ammended. Kevin Rector (talk) 17:17, Apr 19, 2005


 * There is a duplication at the begining of the article.--Zigamorph 21:10, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no 80 year age limit on popes being elected - technically any male Roman Catholic can be elected.

Removal of early life
Why as Ratzinger's bio been altered to remove his early life and army career? Malicious edit?

Congratulations
Wow, I can't believe Wikipedia! To every Wikipedian: congratulations on this extensive article within moments of official statements, you/we should be proud on ourselves! Switcher 17:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * All they did was move the article from Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. It was that simple. :P --Kitch 17:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It's still impressive ;)


 * It's *very* impressive that Wiki had news of white smoke before BBC, CNN, MSNBC, Sky News, Fox News, ABC News, CBS News, PA, AP, Reuters....


 * What are everyone's thoughts on the use of the name "Ratzinger" as oppoed to "Benedict XVI?" I mean, which of the "Ratzingers" in the current article should be changed to his papal name. Just a thought. --Andrew 18:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, BBC Radio 4 covered the smoke as it happened; I saw the wiki change soon after.

First picture
When you unprotect the article, I have the first picture of him as pope:




 * I would also include the official photo of His Holiness that the Vatican will take of him in the next few days, but move this to the article about his selection in the conclave. Zscout370 17:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)...

The page isn't protected (though it should be) and thanks for the photo. BTW was your adding the Hungarian interwiki link a hint that I should write the article? :) (there's no article in the Hungarian wiki about him yet :) Alensha 18:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Uhhh....if you want to think of it that way, then yes, go ahead and do the Hungarian page on him. BTW, I did not upload that photo, but I am just giving hints on where we can find a free use photo. Zscout370 18:16, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for motivating me, I wrote the article in H. wiki. :) BTW can someone make the photo be in the beginning of this article? I hate messing with templates. Alensha 18:40, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Ooh, it's already there. Cool. This article changes faster than I can read. :) Alensha 18:42, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

First words
"Dear brothers and sisters, after the great Pope John Paul II, the cardinals have elected me, a simple, humble worker in the vineyard of the Lord. The fact that the Lord can work and act even with insufficient means consoles me, and above all I entrust myself to your prayers.  In the joy of the risen Lord, trusting in his permanent help, we go forward. The Lord will help us and Mary his very holy mother stands by us." Benedict XVI --Gerald Farinas 18:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Policy Direction
This article should include the type of policy direction the Catholic church can expect from this pope. Something along the lines of the following paragraph from this cnn article: "In the Vatican, he has been the driving force behind crackdowns on liberation theology, religious pluralism, challenges to traditional moral teachings on issues such as homosexuality, and dissent on such issues as women's ordination." Monkeyman 18:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * As an encyclopedia, I don't think we should speculate about what we could expect from him. We can highlight his past positions, yes.  But we should tread lightly as we ponder what Benedict XVI could do.  We don't prophesize at Wikipedia.  We record facts of events that have happened, not what will happen.  --Gerald Farinas 18:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gloria Olivae?
See Prophecy of the Popes. Someone's pulling our chain. I never heard GO as a motto or name for Ratzinger before this. -- User:Sk4p

I removed it. Whoever posted it was obviously trying to make him fulfull the Prophesies of St. Malachy. If you want to go that route, a more likely interpretation would associate the name "Benedictine" with "Olivetans." --User:mamageek

I removed that reference. Whoever put it there was obviously just trying to make him fit the Prophecies of St. Malachy. He wasn't commonly called that at all. A closer fit, if you want to go that route, is that Benedictines are called Olivetans.


 * "Gloria Oliviae" is not a prophecy for the actual motto of the new pope. It was just a catch phrase that was suppose to prophesize a future pope. The phrase was known long before Ratzinger was elected. There are pages out there concerning the prophecy that hasn't been updated for a few years showing the phrase Gloria Oliviae as the catch phrase for this current pope, and that JPII was the current and living pope. The beauty of the prophesy, if one choose to believe, is that it was known to fit an individual in several ways through word play and actual description. --Kvasir 18:06, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

From ENDTIME ISSUES NEWSLETTER No. 128

Pope # 111: Gloria OlivaeNext Pope after John Paul II. The legend of motto 111 gloria olivaethe glory of the olive, describes the future pope who will succeed John Paul II. In what sense will the next pope be the glory of the olive? Since the olive branch is a well-known symbol of peace, presumably the glory of the olive is peace. Thus, the phrase suggests that the pope who will succeed John Paul II, will be a man committed to promote peace.

Presumably, he will seek to establish peace among the nations, peace among the Catholics, and peace between Catholics and followers of other religions. Malachys prophecy, then, suggests that the pontificate of the next Pope after John Paul II will be distinguished for seeking to promote peace around the world.

If Malachys prophecy for pope #111 gloria olivaethe glory of the olive is correct, we can expect the next pope to build upon the political and ecumenical accomplishments of John Paul II. He will be known as the Pope of Peace, helping to resolve outstanding political conflicts among the nations. His peacemaking efforts will be directed especially to the religious world, leading Christian and non-Christian religions, especially Islam, to accept the Pope as the symbol of the religious unity of mankind. When this happens, the words of Revelation 13:3 will be fulfilled: the whole earth followed the beast with wonder (RSV).

C++???
Is C++ (a computer programming language) really one of his spoken languages?
 * No, Haskell is the divine programming language according to the Catholic tradition. In fact, a driving factor behind the Reformation was Martin Luther's insistence on using Common Lisp instead.
 * I must strictly disagree! The Marthin Luther's reformation was driven mainly by his constant refusal of debuggers, which was translated to his theachings as the "sola fide" and "sola scriptura" articles.
 * All familiar with the work of filker Bob Kanefsky know that God wrote in LISP code when He filled the leaves with green.
 * What the *bleep* are you talking about? MessedRocker 21:33, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

BENEDICTVM XVI
Question, is there a way we can include this in the article? This is his name in Latin (though not the official one). This was mentioned on the Vatican website. Thanks. Zscout370 18:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it seems the official version is 'Paparazzinger'. Could anyone with the necessary authority and moral right make the correction?

"Benedictum" is the accusative case, as in "We have pope B. XVI". The normal citation would be nominative case, "Benedictus". User:Sk4p
 * Ah. I added the above name, but I put it as "unofficial." The reason why is that several Italian newspapers, and the Vatican website, use the above name. Zscout370 19:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Devout anarchist?
Seems to be a (bad taste) joke. Conservative catholic is more accurate

Info Box
Using an Infobox which already contains space for "place of death" and "died" seems tasteless to me --Deprifry 18:36, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, so I will try to remove that once I got time (and the edits pause for a second). Zscout370 19:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * We have to put n/a in the boxes, since this current template is used on all Papal pages. Zscout370 20:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * We need a "current pope" infobox, as well as a "dead pope" infobox. -- ALoan (Talk) 20:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

language skills
He doesn't speak 10 languages. As far as I know, he speaks German, Italian and French fluently and English and Spanish. 85.124.40.7 18:52, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself! Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone (yourself included) can edit any article by following the  link. You don't even need to log in, although there are several reasons why you might want to.  Wikipedia convention is to be bold and not be afraid of making mistakes.  If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at How to edit a page, or try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. &mdash; mark &#9998; 18:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * thank you for the hint. 85.124.40.7 20:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Other events on April 19
Just a coincidence, I am sure, but the Oklahoma City bombing was 10 years ago, the Branch Davidian cult siege in Waco was 12 years ago, and the leftist Colombian 19th of April Movement (Movimiento 19 de Abril, M-19) traces its origins to the allegedly fraudulent presidential elections of April 19, 1970. And the American War of Independence started in 1775.

April 19 is also Primrose Day (UK, Conservative Party, Benjamin Disraeli), now slightly marginal.

Adrian VI
Someone put in here that the last German pope was Adrian VI. While it is true that Adrian was of German ancestry, he was not German himself. He was born and lived in the Netherlands. Yes, they were considered German at the time, but by a strict definition he is not a German himself.


 * What is your "strict definition" of "being German", exactly? AFAIK it is customary to define the nationality of famous people according to what they were at the time. E.g. Julius Caesar was dictator of the Roman Empire, not of Italy. Another example: Immanuel Kant is universally considered a German philosopher, although the city of Königsberg, where he was born, lived, and died, is in Russia nowadays. Nobody calls Kant a "Russian philosopher". Gestumblindi 19:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The extent to which the Netherlands were considered German in the 15th and 16th centuries is open to a considerably quantity of doubt. Yes, they were part of the Holy Roman Empire, but they were also in the orbit of the Dukes of Burgundy, who were not considered to be German. The Duchy of Lorraine was also part of the Holy Roman Empire at this time. I'd feel uncomfortable calling a pope from Lorraine a "German." john k 20:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The language spoken in the Netherlands, however, was German - more precisely, the Low German dialect from which the modern Dutch language developed. This, the German language/culture background of Adrian, together with his ancestry, is IMHO enough to call him "German". Gestumblindi 21:00, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * All newspapers says Adrian was a German (and Dutch) pope. Only petty nationalists in the Netherlands deny he was German.
 * All the newspapers and newschannels I've seen in my country say the last German pope was in the 11th century. I think to simplify things, we should classify popes by where they were born. So Victor II would be German, and Adrian VI would be Dutch.

Josef or Joseph?
Both have been used in the article - can we settle on one? -- 8^D BD2412gab 19:59, 2005 Apr 19 (UTC)
 * "Josef" is the correct spelling.
 * Both, Josef and Joseph (both are pronounced the same way) are correct (although the latter is regarded to be "oldfashioned"). The current pope used Joseph. 85.124.40.7 20:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Date question
When did he desert the Wehrmacht? AP says it was in April 1945. Did he desert in 4/1944 or 4/1945?

- Alon Levy.

Will be Installed April 24
The Vatican has announced his solemn inauguration (Mass of Papal Installation) will be 10 AM Rome time on April 24,can someone who edits protected pages add that?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 20:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nazi era
Concerning the Nazi era, an anonymous contributor changed the text:


 * In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He went into basic training for the Wehrmacht infantry in November of 1944. In 1945 he was interned in a POW camp as a German soldier. 

in


 * son of a policeman who was staunchly anti-Nazi, he was none-the-less forced to join the Hitler Youth when it became complulsory in 1941. In 1943, at the age of 16 he was, along with the rest of his class, drafted into the Flak or anti-aircraft corps, responsible for the guarding of a BMW plant outside Munich. He went into basic training for the Wehrmacht infantry in November of 1944. In 1945 he was interned in a POW camp as a German soldier. 

on 17 Apr 2005 (04:05 hours). This was done when Ratzinger after named as a candidate Pope (check for example the history of this Wikipedia article).


 * Can this new information be verified?
 * Especially, can it be controlled or proved that his father was "staunchly" anti-Nazi? And what does this say about the opinion of the young Ratzinger?
 * The new text presents Ratzinger as someone who was put in the Wehrmacht, not as a human being who made a choice. Is this neutral enough? Or is an ethical (and highly disputable) choice made for the "ein Befehl ist ein Befehl" (an order is an order) rethoric??Doorwerth

I tried to create more neutral language about Ratzinger's Hitler Youth membership and army service. Not sure how the duplication mess will sort out relative to my changes. I'm still concerned about the description of his father as "anti-Nazi." Do we have any evidence about that? It is more-or-less pro-forma to describe everyone in Germany around 1935-40 as anti-Nazi as a sort of blanket apology, especially for those you want to present in positive light (whether or not that light is fair). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 20:43, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * This is more neutral but the current version is inconsistent: It is quoted that he was not attending any meetings while -in the next line- it is stated that he assistend the anti-aircraft corps. Doorwerth 21:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Papal arms
The arms depicted indicate a cardinal, not a pope - hence the red velvet hat and the number of tassels. Until new arms are issued, shouldn't the CAPTION say that these are "Ratzinger's arms" as currently borne, instead of calling them his "papal arms"? These arms belong to the man, not to the office.

Cf. the tiara over JP II's arms.


 * As for the first issue, we are going to use the arms provided by the Vatican until a new one is created. The second issue, we have to create a new template for this page in order for your suggestion to work. Zscout370 20:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes these aren't his papal arms but his cardinal arms. The new ones aren't designed yet. Fear ÉIREANN  20:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism
My personal opinions aside, I don't think a picture of the Emperor from the Star Wars films is an appropriate portrait of the new pope.
 * Agreed, now that picture is on IfD. Zscout370 18:17, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for removing the "devout anarchist" slur, someone needs to grow up.
 * I did not remove it, but your welcome. With a page like this, there will be many vandals, and so will be many people trying to revert everything that they do. Zscout370 19:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Duplication
The whole page is currently duplicated threefold, and has been so for a while. Edits have probably been made to all duplicates,. This was the last version before duplication:, Alarm 19:39, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I fixed the problem, Alarm. If there is anything that is new that I might have taken out accidentally, then go ahead and add new entries. Zscout370 19:44, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Note, I am still doing this. See me on my talk page if you have any issues. Zscout370 19:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is in a hell of a mess. I assume that you who blocked it from editing are going to sort it out yourself??? Arcturus 19:59, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no admin powers, plus I should have clarified that the only page that I am clearing duplicates on is this one. But no matter what, both pages are a hell of a mess and will take a while to fix. Zscout370 20:01, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

UNPROTECT
Who protected this page??? The image doesn't show because the image tag is duplicated: image:image:. FIX NOW AND UNPROTECT!! Cantus&hellip; &#9742;   19:59, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * WOW, this article is one BIG mess. Admins please sort this mess out and then unprotect!! Cantus&hellip; &#9742;   20:02, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * I am sure they are trying to do that. I just hope this will not screw up Wikipedia's reputation. Zscout370 20:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * So help me God, I will keep this page protected as long as I have to to fix the rampant doubling. I protected it for a few minutes (~8-10) to fix up to tripling in some areas; it took some doing, since people continued to add info. It's not helpful when admin continue to edit a protected page, even though they are warned to. (No reason to waste time putting up a "this page is protected" message, that as well as the servers are running right now that would have taken too much time, and contributed to my own edit conflicts). I fixed the first doubling, then just now protected to fix another round of doubling which was thankfully fixed just before I protected. I will continue doing this every time doubling occurs which isn't immediately remedied; if you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it. --Golbez 20:11, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * Golbez, copy and paste everything into a text document (go to edit this page, press Ctrl and A, then paste it into a Notepad document). Save it, and when problems arise, go to edit this page, open up the Notepad file, then copy and paste from there. It is almost like having a local backup. Zscout370 20:21, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Page renamed to follow Naming conventions (names and titles) on cardinals. FearÉIREANN 02:28 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Note: Please sign all entries with the four tildes ~ . Thank you. Zscout370 20:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Archive for Resolved Issues. Zscout370 20:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

idiot messing up the page
which idiot is messing up the page and massively duplicating sections?
 * No idea, but I am hoping this mess will be fixed soon. Right now, I am trying to reorganize this talk page and arhciving a lot of stuff. Zscout370 20:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * and why is the messed up page protected!!?
 * Once again, no idea why, but this is starting to piss me off. Zscout370 20:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Who is doing it? Why can't we just block this vandal?

I protected the page so I could clean up the duplicates without encountering edit conflicts. AndyL 21:10, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunate Vandalism
1. The photo of Adolf Hitler is misleading. Yes Mr. Ratzinger was a former Hitler Youth, but the text states this was a requirement by law and not a choice of the young man. So the Hitler photo is unnecesary.

2.Benedict was considered to be Pope John Paul II's "right hand man" and also one of his closest friends, and during the Pope's final illness, he carried out many of the Pope's functions as leader of the Catholic Church, such as molesting young boys and degrating women. This sort of speaks for itself.

3. He is the eighth German pope. The last German pope, Adrian VI, was elected in 1522 and died in 1523. He is also the oldest cardinal to become pope since Clement XII, who like Ratzinger was elected at age 78. ''The reasoning behind picking such a old pope, is simple. They have not yet made up their mind and hope to soon find him dead so they can pick the guy they really want.'' Totally inappropriate editorializing in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article.

Maybe we should protect this site so that once the news isn't as fresh, there'd be less vandalism. Ramsquire 21:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We must NOT protect this site. Our reputation as an encyclopedia is based on our ability to react to change. People tried it on with John Paul II, and the protection was reverted, resulting in a transformed article. There is a huge energy for this article right now, and we must nopt waste it, --SqueakBox 19:23, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC) Wenn ich schlafe, spielen auf meiner Zunge Pinguine Harfe - Taktloss
 * Plus, as Squeak said, many people are going to target current event stories, since many people will come up and look at these articles. I would also like to point out that the vandalism is reverted in seconds, so we should be fine for right now. Zscout370 19:28, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for the previous anon post. I always forget to sign in. If you guys are on top of the vandalism, then I guess it's unnecessary to protect the site. Vandalism is the one major drawback to the whole wiki-experiment. But I guess it's the price to pay in an open forum like this. Ramsquire 21:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC) _________________________________________________________________

While many theologians strive for a Catholic Church that is more open and in touch with the world around it, Ratzinger&#8217;s mission is to stamp out dissent, and curb the &#8220;wild excesses&#8221; of this more tolerant era.

He wields the tools of his office with steely efficiency. By influencing diocese budgets, bishops&#8217; transfers and even excommunications, what an opponent calls &#8220;symbolic violence&#8221;, Ratzinger has clamped down on the more radical contingent of the Church.

He has even claimed the prime position of the Church of Rome over other Christian Churches. Although he has apologised for this, he has never been so contrite about excluding liberation theologians, more progressive priests or those in favour of the ordination of women.

Thank you for not posting this stuff in the actual article, anon-user, but maybe if you have cites backing this info up, you can add a detractor section to the article. It might be helpful to present a balanced profile. Ramsquire 21:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wrong and/or missleading statements
from the current state of the article:

Ratzinger was not an enthusiastic member but during the same period, 4 milion other German teenagers did not joint the it.

Sorry, but this is wrong english! Wikipedia being an Encyclopedia, such opinions are uncalled for! a link to Hitler Jugend is enough for anyone interested in knowing what happend. Neither that a Historian wrote that Ratzinger was enthusiastic or not, nor the fact that 4 million teenager did not join is relevant for this page.

Please keep the facts, remove the opinions --ManagementBoy 20:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The previous German pope
The introduction says that Pope Benedict XVI "is the first German Pontiff since Adrian VI (1522-1523)". But in the 'Recent news and influence' section, we read that "[t]he last German pope, Pope Victor II, was elected in 1055 and died in 1057." What's going on here? 4pq1injbok 21:04, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Adrian VI was both Dutch and German. His ancestors were from what is now Germany, and Dutch people were considered Germans, just like the people living in Schleswig or Bavaria, in his lifetime.
 * But now, people in the Netherlands are Dutch, and all the people living in areas, which were formerly under German control, are now considered as Polish, Czech, or whatever the case may be.
 * The Poles is a different people. The Low Germans were as much German as any other Germans.

German Popes
this article says both:
 * "The last German pope, Pope Victor II, was elected in 1055 and died in 1057."
 * Benedict XVI is "the first German Pontiff since Adrian VI (1522-1523)."

Do these contradict? Kingturtle 21:05, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe so, however, it should be reworded to this effect: "Before Benedict XVI, the last pope that was elected from Germany was Pope Victor II (r.1055-1057). The last pope from Germanic decent was Adrian VII (r.1522-1523)." Zscout370 21:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * See the discussion above at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI#Adrian_VI - I'd say that Adrian VI can be considered German and thus is the last German pope, not Victor II. Gestumblindi 21:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * All newspapers says Adrian VI is the last German pope.
 * All the newschannels and newspapers I've seen say that the last German pope was in the 11th century, which would make Victor II (1055-1057) the last German pope. Adrian VI was born in the Netherlands.


 * Yes, he was born in the Netherlands, one the German countries of his time. His ancestors also was from what is now Germany (the state founded 1871). FAZ refer to Adrian as German.


 * Okay, I accept his ancestry. But to keep things simple for people who will undoubtably not look up minor details such as which country controlled the Netherlands in the 16th century and will think of nationality in terms of modern day borders, we should classify popes by where they were born in terms of modern day borders.

Image Copyright
(I'd have posted in the previous Image section, but as that has been duplicated several times I didn't want to get in the way of cleaning up). I don't think a Reuters image counts as fair use, though it's been tagged that way. Hopefully the current image can be replaced as quickly as possible with an actual fair use image, such as any official photograph the Vatican releases. &mdash; Asbestos | Talk  21:25, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I would wait a week or two for any official photos to be released by the Vatican. Zscout370 21:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vatican Announcement
FYI:

"Annuntio vobis gaudium magnum; habemus Papam:

Eminentissimum ac Reverendissimum Dominum, Dominum Josephum Sanctae Romanae Ecclesiae Cardinalem Ratzinger qui sibi nomen imposuit Benedictum XVI"

That is something we can put at a later date on the article. Zscout370 21:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Edit war and vandalism
We seem to have an edit war over the 'germaness' of Adrian, and stupid vandalism of the 'Poop Benedict' variety going on. Going to be a long night... Djbrianuk 21:32, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Every single important newspaper refer to Adrian as a German pope. I suggest we block the vandal who keeps inserting "Poop" and Victor II.

The major newschannels and newspapers in my country are saying the last German pope was in the 11th century. I'm the one editing the Victor part, though I have NEVER, not even once, written the Poop Benedict. I think that is complete uncalled for.

POV
The current article contains a bias in favour of the individual. Eg. quote from supporter, quote from self, POV attempt to suggest what the catholic church believes in 'universally' (this is certainly disagreed with by many self-proclaimed catholics.) No details on past criticisms and his attacks on priests he declared heretical.--Fangz 21:37, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Format
While if it's true this can be in the article I don't see how the following should possibly go in the introduction:

''Benedict is seen as a traditionalist — he is nicknamed "God's Rottweiler" because of his fierce and creative mastybation habits and a dislike of defence of papal principles. He is a controversial choice. He is a critic of homosexuality and gay marriage and has denounced other Christian churches as deficient.''


 * Assuming you're talking about "his creative mastybation habits," that's merely childish vandalism. If you're asking about the version that's up now without the vandalism, I'd say it's in the introduction because it's a pretty important part of how he's viewed in the Church and in the outside world. &mdash; Asbestos | Talk

The "God's Rottweiler" moniker seems to be a new phenomenon beginning with the death of John Paul II. A google search does not find any evidence of use in the press prior to April 3rd, 2005. It seems quite biased, mostly fueled by the press, and not a good fit for an encyclopedia.

-

The paragraph that replaced the above is also very problematic. It is filled with conjecture. Nothing in it can be taken as fact and there is no attempt to back any of the assumptions up. It is all opinion with a very obvious critical slant that does not belong in the introduction. To highlight 'Dogma und Verkündigung' and mischaracterize its contents illustrates how questionable it is.

The Pope's Namesake
Is it really Benedict XV, as suggested in the article, and not Benedict XII -- "Putting the Smackdown on Heresy Since 1317"?