Talk:Pope Pius IX and the United States

Possible error
"Together with German and Italian immigrants, the Catholic population in America increased from 4 percent at the beginning of the pontificate of Pius IX in 1846 to 11 percent in 1870." Now, if I'm not mistaken, the vast majority of Catholic immigrants would have been German and Irish, not German and Italian. Widespread Italian immigration to the United States didn't begin until the last decades of the 19th century.--172.190.168.141 (talk) 04:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

No references in "Political Involvement..."
The following sentence, regardless of truth or falsehood, is completely unsupported by the references provided after the sentence and paragraphs associated with it: " This simple courtesy, which had absolutely no legal or diplomatic effect, has been seized upon by some to claim that it showed that the Pope recognized (at least on a personal level) the Confederate States of America to be an actual country (and separate from the United States of America). " References only show the letter and some commentary on Jefferson Davis,, but no support to the sentence quoted above. All we have, then, is the editor's point of view... 146.23.65.198 (talk) 22:35, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

This section is not NPOV; the very omission of a crucial fact makes this article biased and contradictory to similar wiki-pages.

With the Emancipation Proclamation on January 1, 1863, the Union made abolition of slavery a war goal, in addition to reunion. When The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime, on April 8 1864. The Holy Office of Pope Pius IX: Slavery itself, considered as such in its essential nature, to the natural and divine law, and there can be several just titles of slavery, and these are referred to by approved theologians and commentators of the sacred canons … It is not contrary to the natural and divine law for a slave to be sold, bought, exchanged or given.

The Vatican, especially pope Pius IX, strained their relationship with the USA and gave the anti-catholic sentiment a concrete plate form. President Abraham Lincoln reflecting on the Civil War wrote: “This war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to Popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and North, on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis nor any one of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promise of the Jesuits, that, under the mask of Democracy, the money and the arms of the Roman Catholics, even the arms of France, were at their disposal if they would attack us.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kunyachica83 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Give us a reference for that quote by Lincoln? It can not be put in the article unless it is verified. 70.197.13.149 (talk) 21:26, 11 March 2014 (UTC) This is referenced online ON President Lincoln The only thought which seemed to occupy the mind of the President was the part which Rome had in that horrible struggle. Many times he repeated: "This war would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to Popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and the North, on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis nor any one of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promises of the Jesuits, that under the mask of Democracy, the money and the arms of the Roman Catholic, even the arms of France, were at their disposal, if they would attack us. I pity the priests, the bishops and the monks of Rome in the United States, when the people realize that they are, in great part, responsible for the tears and the blood shed in this war; the later the more terrible will the retribution be. I conceal what I know, on that subject, from the knowledge of the nation; for if the people knew the whole truth, this war would turn into a religious war, and it would, at once, take a tenfold more savage and bloody character, it would become merciless as all religious wars are. It would become a war of extermination on both sides. The Protestants of both the North and the South would surely unite to exterminate the priests and the Jesuits, if they could hear what Professor Morse has said to me of the plots made in the very city of Rome to destroy this Republic, and if they could learn how the priests, the nuns, and the monks, which daily land on our shores, under the pretext of preaching their religion, instructing the people in their schools, taking care of the sick in the hospitals, are nothing else but the emissaries of the Pope, of Napoleon, and the other despots of Europe, to undermine our institutions, alienate the hearts of our people from our constitution, and our laws, destroy our schools, and prepare a reign of anarchy here as they have done in Ireland, in Mexico, in Spain, and wherever there are any people who want to be free, ect." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.116.120 (talk) 22:09, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

The phrase "known for his conspiracy theories" is conjecture and does not add to the article. It skews the neutrality of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clintiepoo (talk • contribs) 01:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Letter to Davis - excerpt from another source
This might be used in some way. It's an excerpt from A digest of international law as embodied in diplomatic discussions, treaties and other international agreements by Moore, John Bassett, 1860-1947; Wharton, Francis, 1820-1889; United States. President; United States. Dept. of State; United States. Dept. of Justice 1906.

"See an article entitled "Relics of the Confederacy in Washington," by Mr. G. M. Jacobs, in the Louisville CourierJournal, May 30, 1900. The original letter is in the miscellaneous division of the Treasury Department. Mr. Jacobs, in the article in question, says: " Mr. Mann accepted the letter as a positive recognition of the Confederate government, and immediately telegraphed congratulations to Judah P. Benjamin, secretary of state. In transmitting the document to President Davis, he wrote: 'This letter will grace the archives of the executive office in all coming time. It will live, too, forever in story as the production of the first potentate who formally recognized your official position and accorded to one of the diplomatic representatives of the Confederate States an audience in an established court palace like that of St. James or the Tuileries.'

212 states: recognition and continuity. [§ 72.

"Years later, Mr. Mann wrote: 'Even after this lapse of time I can not help but think how majestic was the conduct of the Government of the pontifical States in its bearing toward me when contrasted with the sneaking subterfuges to which the other European governments had recourse in order to evade intercourse with our commissioners. '

"How many of the other leaders of the Confederacy interpreted the Pope's letter in the same way is not definitely known. Mr. Davis left no official statement of his opinion on the subject. Mr. Benjamin, however, in a communication to Mr. Mann, maintained that as a recognition of the Con federate States the letter was of little value, being only an inferential rec gnition, unconnected with political action or the regular establishment of diplomatic relations, and that his address to Mr. Davis as president of the Confederate States was merely a formula of courtesy to his correspondent, and not a political acknowledgment of the fact."

That Mr. Benjamin's interpretation of the letter was correct is shown by statements made by Cardinal Antonelli to Mr. King, minister of the United States to the papal States, by which it appears that the action of his holi ness was free from all ]>olitical design, and was intended merely as an expression of his wishes for the restoration of peace to the people of the United States. (Mr. King to Mr. Seward, Sec. of State, Jan. 3, Jan. 15, March 19, 1863, MSS. Dept. of State; Mr. Seward, Sec. of State, to Mr. King, Feb. 9 and April 6, 1803, MS. Inst. Papal States, I. 69, 72. ) Doug Weller  talk 11:53, 5 October 2016 (UTC)