Talk:Pope Sylvester II

1
False claims about study in Islamic Spain and even Morocco.

The article implies that the future Sylvester II studied in Islamic Spain and even in Morocco - he did not, the claims are nonsense.90.195.121.234 (talk) 08:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Astrology
A small reference to astrology should be in this article -- do you happen to know that astronomy as a science didn't even exist for another 600 years or so after his death -- astronomy and astrology were the same thing. Plus, 90 percent of the Arabic texts that he translated were concerning astrology -- the Arabs preserved astrology for the West during the so called "Dark Ages." If you don't believe me LOOK IT UP and find out for yourself!

Face the facts buddy -- just because he was a Pope and Christian doesn't mean that he didn't study and use astrology -- most every literate person did in those days! Stop white-washing history! You're being fascistic -- I'm just trying to tell the truth.


 * please sign your posts. I shouldn't even reply to this. you are right that astronomy and astrology were not clearly separated in the 10th century. The point here is that Gerbert was interested in things that in modern terminology we would clearly label as astronomy: He was not trying to tell the future from the stars, he was interested in the movement of the earth (again, in our modern terminology. in a geocentric picture, he was interested in the movement of the stars and the sun), mainly for purposes of timekeeping and the christian calendar. The church frowned upon astrological (in the modern sense) practices. astrologia in the latin texts doesn't simply translate to English astrology. If you find a reference to astrology (in the modern sense, i.e. connecting human character to the zodiac or similar) in Gerberts writings, cite it, and we will include it. with "in those days" you probably mean the 17th century, where indeed almost everybody studied astrology. Not so in the tenth century. dab 08:15, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Gerbert's writings are in Migne's Patrologia, volume 139. I have not read them all, and it is not impossible that there is a reference to a horoscope or similar. If you point to a passage that we would label "astrological", I will be happy to include it in the article. Until then, I see no evidence that Gerbert, whose interest was clearly mathematical and abstract, was involved in astrology. Also, if you don't use an account, I will assume that you are identical with the vandal that used your IP in recent days, and I will not reply to you again. dab 08:30, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Different Interlocutor
Oboy, I kinda feel for you, I'm sorry, looks like you've been fighting this for a while. I'll sign my post at least!

First off, I'm not the same guy as your anonymous slinger of "fascist", and don't like that, either. Not civilized discourse, and a common unthinking misuse of a very precise word.

Secondly, I have no particular brief for or against Popes, astrology, or this particular Pope/possible astrologer; just added the characterization from my French heritage, where it is one of those things that everybody knows.

If I've taken this long to reply, it's that it's beginning to look like that this is one of those many things out there that just ain't so.... but I'm not convinced yet. The smoke surrounding Gerbert, his tomb, his astronomical and mathematical interests (and you'll admit that's always hanging around astrology up to about 1650), just gotta have some kind of fire behind it. So I'm going to hunt for it; for the time being, I'm with you on reverting me &mdash; but that may change. &mdash; Bill 21:42, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * you are right, there are a lot of legends surrounding Gerbert, and they are missing from the article, as it stands. For example, there is the story about the puppet he was supposed to have made, I think it could speak or something. Well, we can even make a separate section, Gerbert in legend or similar. I just don't think that's on a par with what he manifestly did and wrote. He certainly did import astronomical knowledge from islamic spain. He was far ahead of the knowledge of his times, and it is no wonder that people viewed him as a magician and astrologer. The question is, did the real, historical Gerbert draw horoscopes, or even observe the planets? If there is a chapter on planetary motion in his works, I will be more ready to view him as an astrologer, because the planets are irrelevant for purposes of the calendar. But just building an astrolabe, and maybe calculating eclipses, doesn't make him an astrologer. dab 06:58, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I put Gerbert's writings on Wikisource, so you can see for yourself. I could not find the names of the planets. The word horoscopum appears, but it refers to a part of the astrolabe, with which you measure the altitude of a star, and not to an (english meaning) horoscope. dab 07:34, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, all that's beginning to make sense alas, one more thing that may be biting the dust. Just like Mark Twain (was it?) says. Quite unable so far to find Gerbert/Sylvester on Wikisource though, neither among the authors nor by searching for "Gerbert", but will be looking for it: my Latin's pretty good. Yes, horoscopum frequently used for anything that sights the ascendant, much closer to the Greek. (Blast.) Best, Bill 10:59, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * um, I put a link to wikisource right in this article, under "external links" dab 16:16, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Judith Tarr wrote a historical novel about Sylvester II, titled Ars Magica. Should that get its own section? NotWillDecker  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.212.225.199 (talk) 20:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Pope Silvester II → Pope Sylvester II — Authoritative name per Library of Congress authorities database —SteveMcCluskey 16:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC) discuss added by Sig Pig  |SEND - OVER  06:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.


 * Support per Mr McCluskey, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and the fine folks at the Library of Congress. -- Sig Pig  |SEND - OVER 06:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support. Google Books has a preference for Sylvester over Silvester. Olessi 17:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Support'. We could use more research like this at move discussions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:

I was a bit surprised by the title of this article and checked the Library of Congress authorities file. It gives the following:

HEADING: Used For/See From: Found In:
 * Sylvester II, Pope, ca. 945-1003
 * Sylvester II, Pope, d. 1003
 * Gerbert, von Aurillac, ca. 945-1003
 * Gerberto, dell’Alvernia, ca. 945-1003
 * Alvernia, Gerberto dell’, ca. 945-1003
 * Aurillac, Gerbert von, ca. 945-1003
 * Gerbert, d’Aurillac, ca. 945-1003
 * Gerbert, von Reims, ca. 945-1003
 * Reims, Gerbert von, ca. 945-1003
 * Silvestro II, Pope, ca. 945-1003
 * Silvestre II, Pope, ca. 945-1003
 * Gerbert, d’Orlhac, ca. 945-1003
 * Orlhac, Gerbert d’, ca. 945-1003
 * Gerberto, d’Aurillac, ca. 945-1003
 * Aurillac, Gerberto d’, ca. 945-1003
 * Uhlirz, M. Untersuchungen über Inhalt und Datierung der Briefe Gerberts von Aurillac ... 1957.
 * New Cath. encycl., 1981 (Sylvester II, Pope, 999-1003; secular name Gerbert, b. Aurillac, France, ca. 945; d. 1003)
 * Bacchiega, M. Silvestro II ... 1981.
 * Silvestre II (Gerbert d’Orlhac), 1998.
 * Contardi, E. Gerberto d’Aurillac, Silvestro II, 1939.

Silvester (with an i) only appears in the Italian (Silvestro) and French (Silvestre) forms; it doesn't appear in the English, in which the preferred form is Sylvester. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SteveMcCluskey (talk • contribs) 16:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Sorry I forgot to sign SteveMcCluskey 16:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 06:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You may also want to investigate Pope Sylvester I and Pope Sylvester III. --Stemonitis 06:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Seville and Cordoba
Hi there. Just a small sidenote; as far as I can gather, the future pope Sylvester II studied in Cordoba and Seville, then important cities within the Caliphate of Cordoba. The Caliphate of Cordoba was not Spain- in fact, Spain was not an entity in any form back in the Xth century-, and I think it would be worth correcting somehow, whether with an explanatory sentence or by changing the term. Cheers! ;) Dr Benway 14:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Works section
I've greatly expanded the works section, adding information on the Hindu-Arabic numerals, abacus, the numeral zero and the empty column for it in the abacus, the armillary sphere and sighting tube, as well as a citation for the hydraulic powered organ (noting that it used brass tubes). I've added a bunch of new sources and inline citations. The article is not yet well-rounded, but it's off to a better start than it was before with only 3 inline citations for the entire article.-- Pericles of Athens  Talk 18:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi - the section on Gerbert as Jewish is silly. To state that some people believed that he was Jewish may be possibly accurate (though I have never run across this before in the contemporary lit) but to say that it was or is "commonly believed" is simply not true. The reasoning of trembling in his presence is more likely that he scared the piss out of people because he was smart and they thought he was a wizard. This does not necessarily necessitate his being a covert Jew, and without more evidence the claim is suspect. Again, I've never run across it before. The citation is to a non-scholarly book put out by a no-name press. You might want to investigate the claim a little more, and until you do drop it from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.209.64.64 (talk) 13:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Church
The church in which the pope supposedly celebrated mass is called Santa Croce in Gerusalemme, not St. Mary's.

I doubt that Pope Sylvester I was actually a counselor to Constantine, but Gerbert may well have believed that he was.

Guastafeste (talk) 11:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Wizard
Nancy Marie Brown mentioned in a radio interview that about 70 years after his death, Gerbert's biography was described with some very colorful stories as an evil wizard. It would be interesting to add more coverage of that in the article; I'm sure she has some details in her book. -- Beland (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

In popular culture
The manual of style is very clear at MOS:POPCULT that when judging whether to include something in a Popular Culture section "The consensus is very clear that a secondary source is required in almost all cases. A tertiary source is even better, if available. In the rare case that a primary source is judged to be sufficient, it should be properly cited. The source(s) cited should not only establish the verifiability of the pop culture reference, but also its significance." That hasn't been done for A Discovery of Witches and it doesn't belong here. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

French ?
How could he possibly be Franch. France didn't even existe and he didn't even talk a French dialect ! --Lembeye (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * France certainly existed in his life-time and before. Str1977 (talk) 22:42, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

General Discussion
Has any resolution been given to the early and mid 2000s discussions? This page doesn’t seem to have been very active. NGrahamMST (talk) 16:48, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Science
— Assignment last updated by K8shep (talk) 16:00, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Abacus and numerals section
I'm going to add a bit more information to the abacus and numerals section of his scholarly work, as I've found some information regarding the specific symbols used in the abacus that I think is valuable. AMCWiki1591 (talk) 17:26, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Legends Section
I plan to add a little information about the importance and effects of the legends of pope Sylvester. I have found that they had great implicative and clarifying effects on the state of science. Jachar520 (talk) 17:36, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

I plan to continue to add information about the Legend of Pope Sylvester. This time I am going to more accurately account what the legend was rather than the summary that is currently there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jachar520 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)