Talk:Popular Rally

Far-Right or simply Populist?
First of all, I don't know of a single political party in the world that describes itself as "far-Right". I do, however, know of many groups with an ideological bias that characterize a superabundance of political parties as "far-Right" in order to discredit them by making them appear less mainstream and of an extremist character.

Secondly, Popular Rally is not a Rightist party, let alone one that belongs to the "far-Right". Although, originally Popular Orthodox Rally was indeed a Rightist party who's membership was initially composed primarily of nationalists, it was never extremist even at that time. And, as the following series of excerpts and statements will show, not only was it never extremist but its political orientation steadily gravitated to the Left and finally became so convoluted that it can only be viewed as a Popularist party.

An interview published in the 27 October 2002 issue of the newspaper Eleftheros Typos titled "I am not far-Right" interviewed Georgios Karatzaferis, the leader of the party. At one point the interviewer said: "Your references towards foreigners, to nationalism, etc. illustrate the ideological characteristics of the Far-Right". Karatzferis' response was: "[...] I stated that we are bursting at the seams with migrants and that they should not live at the expense of our Greek citizens. I spoke of patriotism.  If certain individuals poison the word by associating it with nationalism, it's not my fault.  I represent the pre-dictatorship Right.  I represent the ERE, the Popular Party".

Excerpts from a news article (even if the very article labels the party as being "far-Right") dated 2004 also provides evidence of Karatzaferis' rejection of the "far-Right": "[...] Karatzaferis dismissed any link with right-wing extremism. [...]  'LAOS is not a party of the extreme right, it's a profoundly democratic party,'  he told a news conference Sunday.  'Resuscitating extremism is far from my nature. I'm an altruist,'  he said Monday in an interview with private radio station Flash. The extreme-right-label was an  'insult'  to him, he added".

Two of Popular Orthodox Rally's official publications -- one of them (i.e "G. Karatzaferis, the untamed will: Faith, Struggles, Victory") a record of the leader's views as expressed in his television channel Tele-Asty and the other a small ideological booklet with the political proposals of the party -- reveal the self-described character of the party. On pages 75 and 76 of the first book, the following statements are made: "LA.O.S passionately believes in democracy", "it is a liberal party", "it is not imbued with racist hang-ups", and "it is not a dogmatic, anti-Semitic, or anti-American party". Similar views are reflected on pages 13 and 14 of the booklet which, aside from characterizing Popular Orthodox Rally as liberal also maintains that it has a modernizing intent. On page 16 the booklet speaks of "A polity that will be characterized by Popular Liberalism". On page 72 of the first book, Karatzaferis is recorded as stating that "from the right we kept patriotism and from the left popular demands". Page 146 reads, "Today we must recognize that left-wing ideology battles for truth and wins comparably with right-wing ideology" while page 168 reads, "In the political party LA.O.S we believe in a right-wing creed and a left-wing solidarity". Page 145 states the following: "Migrants have been in Greece for a number of years. Some of them have married, some have had children, [so] we can't turn them away and as the years pass they find roots here and acquire rights".

An English-language article published in Kathimerini in 2006 expresses some doubts as to whether one can consider the political party "far-Right" given that Communists, foreigners, and homosexuals have all been members of it since 2004: "[...] One first has to decide whether LAOS is an ultra-right party [...] 'Judging from statements by (LAOS leader) Giorgos Karatzaferis, any lingering doubts can be removed. In the 2004 elections, alongside the "usual" black sheep (such as Jews, Communists, homosexuals) Karatzaferis, like his French mentor, added immigrants.'"

Indeed, Karatzaferis has openly spoken about Communist candidates who were formerly long-time members of the Communist Party of Greece running as candidates. For instance, some statements published in the newspaper I Lisi in 2005 include: "[...] we have an exceptional official that comes from a serious artistic background and politically from KKE [Communist Party of Greece]". Likewise, Karatzaferis has been been interviewed by homosexual magazines, has met with homosexual organizations, and openly voiced his party's support through a party press release, dated 4 April 2005, in which the following is stated: "[...] Mr. Karatzaferis stated that homophobia must be fought and a resolution found for issues concerning them based on the freedom of the individual [...]".

The fact that all major Greek nationalist newspapers have long criticized Karatzaferis for his views and/or actions and the party he represents is also quite suggestive in dispelling the myth of a "far-Right" nature. (Even Helenic Lines -- the very party newspaper of Hellenic Front, the Rightist political party that would later merge with Popular Orthodox Rally -- would denounce Karatzaferis on a regular basis.)

Although it is true that Karatzaferis once voiced strongly nationalist views before the creation of Popular Orthodox Rally, and that the political party had a moderately nationalist character of a Rightist nature in its first one or two years of existence, its ideological foundations dramatically shifted to an entirely different direction after that time in order to appeal to a Leftist audience. As a result, the party's membership and support is made up of radically diverse groups that span the Left-Right political spectrum. Therefore -- and along with the leader's own statements denouncing the "far-Right" as well as characterizing his party as everything from a "pre-dictatorship Right" to a merger of Left and Right to a "Popular Liberalism" -- there is no basis whatsoever to brand the political party as "far-Right". There is, however, ample support to describe it as Populist. Critias 04:55, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Karatzaferis is a master in making conflicting statements, depending on the audience and what he perceives the latter as wanting to hear, but that does not change the fact that his preoccupation with certain subjects places him squarely within chauvinist circles, be that left-oriented or right.

For example, you mentioned that he claims to be against homophobia, didn't you? He's probably as "opposed" to homophobia as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are -- paying lip service to the principle of tolerance, while at the same time indulging in the most hateful homophobic proclamations. Do the statements below strike you as tolerant of homosexuals?


 * Claiming that there is an international conspiracy by the forces of globalization to turn straight people into gays, so that they may become "more obedient to the system" (!)


 * Saying that a third of the congressmen in this country are "passive homosexuals with Albanian lovers" (!)

Nice insertion of xenophobia into the extremist mix with the latter comment, eh?

How about tolerance towards Jews, then?

He has been recorded calling Jews "enemies of the nation", "God-murderers" (θεοκτόνους), "propagators of the Auschwitz myth". He did not shy from suggesting in parliament that Jews orchestrated the 11th September attacks against the WTC. And he has stated that "Hitler was a mere college-boy compared to these Jews".

And yet, all these do not inhibit him from hypocritically condemning antisemitism and homophobia, when in front of an audience he deems hostile to these extremisms. Such is the nature of the political chameleon. And of course, the same goes to his stance on a host of different matters.

'''I suppose an argument might be convincingly made that he represents an amalgamation of not only far-right, but far-left extremisms as well. To this effect, I will refer you to his statement that "except for matters of foreign policy, the party he finds himself in most agreement with is the Communist Party of Greece" (that is, the party consisting of unrepentant Stalinists), the fact he is a died-in-the-wool statist, and his constant demonization of capitalism and especially globalization. If I were to be accurate, the best description of his party would be "National Socialist'''". 212.251.121.243 13:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As I stated in Talk:List_of_political_parties_in_Greece, "It is also worth mentioning that Karatzaferis' rhetoric today (which is oftentimes very Liberal) is radically different than the rhetoric that made him such a controversial figure". While in New Democracy, Karatazaferis attempted to cultivate a following among nationalists (a politically neglected group) by voicing views that would appeal to them. He was successful in that.  Following the time he left (or was expelled) from New Democracy, Karatzaferis continued this charade in order to gain support for his new political party, Popular Orthodoxy Rally, which was formed in 2000.  But, as I thoroughly demonstrated above, this rhetoric was short-lived indeed as he began to (almost immediately) pander to the Left after he had gained that initial support for his party from nationalists. Since 2002, Karatzaferis has generally continued to cater to the Left and focused his attention on neglected groups while still trying to portray a semblance of (non-existent) "patriotism" and "Orthodox Christian piety".


 * Regarding homosexuality, this is one of the aforementioned politically neglected groups that Karatzaferis has focused his attention on and Popular Rally is not only tolerant of homosexuality but also seems to be the most accepting of it among all the political parties in Greece. In response to an interviewer of a gay magazine who alleged that there were "many reactions" against Karatzaferis when he began his pro-homosexual campaign, Karatzaferis responsed by saying, "That's not true.  The only one to really disagree was Mr. Droulias, who came from KKE [Communist Party of Greece]. In the previous elections, we even had a gay candidate, regardless if he didn't come out and announce it.  We have homosexual workers at our [television] channel, and they do a very good job.  I don't like for people to hide.  When someone remains in the shadows it becomes demonized, when it comes into the light it becomes cushioned".  Speaking of Communists, it's also worth mentioning that the remarks made in Parliament by Karatzaferis regarding the terrorist attacks against the United States being a Jewish conspiracy were also supported by Georgios Hourmouziadis, a Communist member of Parliament.  So citing this doesn't prove that Karatzaferis was (or is) part of the far-Right.  Unless, of course, you also believe that KKE is part of the far-Right?


 * To put it simply, Karatzaferis is not a Rightist or a Leftist and this is something that needs to be understood. He is simply a Populist that will appeal to any group in order to gain enough votes to put him into Parliament. All of the stataments you cited above were made while Karatzaferis was in his "nationalist phase".  Try to find a single statement remotely like that made after 2002.  You won't because none exist.  Karatzaferis, somewhere down the road, realized that appealing to the nationalist minority of Greece alone wasn't going to put him in Parliament (let alone in office) and he consequently decided to pander to a wide range of other groups that, all together, might place Popular Rally into the Parliament.  By doing so, he effectively alienated his initial nationalist core and the party no longer is made up primarily of Rightist nationalists but rather by individuals who run the entire Left-Right political spectrum.


 * How you came to the conclusion that the best description of Popular Rally is "National Socialist" is beyond me. Critias 17:58, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard of the expression "Wolf in sheep's clothing?" No, that was not a fascist sallute in the LAOS meeting, that was an angry raised anarchocommunist fist. Heh. Η Πηγάδα να είναι καλά, και από φασίστες.... Project2501a 18:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Το τελευταίο τμήμα του παραπάνω σχολίου είναι αποκαλυπτικό για όσους νομίζουν ότι οι ακροαριστεροί υπολείπονται σε μισαλλοδοξία και δολοφονικό μένος από τους εθνικοσοσιαλιστές και τους φασίστες.

Δύο όψεις του ίδιου νομίσματος είστε, καημένοι.. 212.251.121.243 13:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * An individual who attended one of Popular Rally's gatherings did indeed give the Roman salute to Karatzaferis. However that was by an individual who opposed the political party and was attempting to protest it and Karatzaferis. That he gave a salute associated with Fascism and/or National Socialism was to demonstrate that Karatzaferis was a Fascist/National Socialist and nothing more.  To any rational and objective person, this should be quite obvious.  Especially considering that this act was harshly denounced in the party's press releases.  If you can prove that the individual who gave the salute was a member of Popular Rally, please do so.  Otherwise, this is all a moot point.


 * I will also add that among nationalists (especially those who are of the Fascist or National Socialist persuasion), Karatzaferis and his party have been under a constant barrage of attacks for the last several years. Pick up an issue of Stochos, Eleftheros Kosmos, or Golden Dawn and there is almost a complete certainty that that issue will contain something very negative to say about Karatzaferis and about his political party.  Karatzaferis is seen as a pseudo-nationalist and loathed by Greek Fascists and National Socialists.  The idea that Greek Fascists and/or National Socialists actually support him is absurd to say the least. Critias 16:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding that last statement made (which condoned the Communist massacre of civilians in Meligala, and of "Fascists" in general, for those who can't understand Greek) in the comment I originally responded to (i.e. the one about "a fascist sallute in the LAOS meeting"), it probably suggests that my attempt at debate with the author was in vain. However, I do hope that my rebuttal will find greater resonance among those with less murderous intentions in their hearts. Critias 19:01, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Popular Orthodox Rally or Popular Rally?
It is worth noting that Popular Orthodox Rally was renamed Popular Rally and that this is something that should be reflected in the article. The newspaper Stochos published an article on 1 September 2005 that was titled "Karatzaferis Removed 'Orthodox' From His Party". The article in question quoted Karatzaferis as saying that the reason for the change was because, "Many mischievous journalists call our party Laos [&#923;&#940;&#959;&#962;, with the stress on the "a"] and not Laos [&#923;&#945;&#972;&#962;, with the stress on the "o"] and so we were forced into renaming it". The newspaper Eleftheros Kosmos also notes the change in an article published 16 October 2005, titled "How LA.O.S. Became LA.SY.". It describes how, shortly after 2002, "Mr. G. Karatzaferis began, unilaterally and without worning, to change the character and the manner of the party, nastily perturbing his staff and supporters. [...] There were intense protests because [...] the archetypal designation (LA.O.S.) and the sign (cross) of the party were gone. [...] 'Coincidently' with the accession of Mr. M. Voridis, the party of Mr. G. Karatzaferis gained a double designation: a) the written Popular Orthodox Rally (LA.O.S.) and b) the verbal Popular Rally (LA.SY.) since henceforth that is how the party has been called by its leader and his associates". Alpha Ena, the newspaper associated with the party has also run images on its front cover displaying the new name (i.e. "Popular Rally") from at least 3 September 2005 (and possibly earlier, though I am not certain). Critias 06:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Corrections
1) Velopoulos is no longer a member of LA.O.S. 2) The name of this political party has NOT been changed!