Talk:Pornography in Japan/Archive 1

=2003=

POV'd content moved here
Japanese pornography has a number of features which are regarded as peculiar or deviant by Western observers:

Emphasis on Youth
The Japanese male dominant culture tends to regard women as more attractive when they are more servile. The effect of this is said to result in the reverence of younger girls. In some exaggerated special cases, women might have psychological problems in maintaining a child-like personae long after the age of maturity.

Differences with Westernism
But the differences with Western pornography in essence are slight and reflect legal barriers in the US and Europe to child and underage pornography. These legal barriers generally come by virtue of Puritanism&mdash;Protestant Christian emphasis on chastity and sexual purity. While the Eastern "Babylonian" religious forms have some degree of influence on Western culture, the end result has the appearance of being an larger difference than it may actually be on the whole.

In the United States, for example, until recently it was up to states to decide age-of consent laws for pornographic films. Until the late 1970s, New York allowed girls as young as 16 to legally work in pornography. In Europe the long tradition of Puritanism is blamed by some sociologists for creating a boom for child pornography and a hidden form of youth emphasis.

The Internet has had the effect in many ways of homogenizing and harmonizing the prurient interests of distant cultures&mdash;of validating aspects like the "sailor uniform" (buru sera) in Japan, is the Eastern equivalent to the "Catholic-schoolgirl" stereotype/ archetype. Once the largest producer of child pornography, Japan recently has begun a crackdown, largely due to US pressure in attempts to gain a control over Internet trafficking.

Buru sera
See: buru sera

Prohibition of Depiction of Pubic Hair
Until recently, the Japanese law prohibited the depiction of pubic hair in depictions of any forms of nudity, whether it be pornographic or not. For example, Japanese editions of men's magazines such as Playboy had to have any photographs with visible signs of pubic hair airbrushed out. This law may have led to pedophilia since all pornographic depictions of women showed them unnaturally hairless.

Almost all pornographic depictions avoided depiction of genitalia, or used mosaic to hide it. Very little pornography showed women as unnaturally hairless.

See also: Hentai

Bad, bad stuff
I have to agree with Taku on this one. The focus of the article is on the differences between Japan and the West, and to me the whole premise of this article implies that there is something abnormal or exotic about pornography in Japan as compared to normal pornography. And then the whole tone of the current article emphasizes that sense: So, if someone decides to do an article that really compares pornography in different cultures, maybe some of this article could be incorporated, but I do think this article is not working. And yes, I think it is racist. -- Bcorr 03:25, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * "This law may have led to pedophilia since all pornographic depictions of women showed them unnaturally hairless."
 * "The Japanese male dominant culture tends to regard women as more attractive when they are more servile."
 * "Japanese pornography has a number of features which are regarded as peculiar or deviant by Western observers"
 * A link to Dan in Japan: I never expected... so much pornography and things of that sort
 * This article needs a lot of work, yes ("In some exaggerated special cases, women might have psychological problems in maintaining a child-like personae long after the age of maturity."). But it still can be kept, as it offers a good ensight into Japanese culture, either as it's own article or merged with another. Vancouverguy 03:29, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Black women might have psychological problems, causing the higher abortion rate among black teenagers. It is completely fine to discuss Japanese culture but what I am saying is the manner of writing, POV. I cannot refute the fact that pornography in Japan has a different taste just like Japanese culture does in general. -- Taku 03:43, 1 October 2003
 * I never said the article wasn't POV (which it is). Keep it and rewrite it, it is part of an important subject- Japanese culture. Vancouverguy 03:46, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * I do understand your position, Vancouverguy, but I'm still very troubled by this article. I don't think there is another article about porn in a specific nation or culture. And though I understand that that it could be the start of parallel articles for other cultures/countries and that isn't usually enough to nix an article, I think we have to realize that in a vacuum it has a lot of troubling implications and overtones. -- Bcorr 03:54, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * It is true that Japanese has a distinct culture, see Japanese culture. But then you have to write such a article from a complete different point of view. I don't think porn in Japan can be such article. I encourage you to try but the current article is not acceptable in wikipedia. -- Taku 04:12, 1 October 2003
 * As Taku has said, the Japanese have a distinctive culture, which also include the porno in Japan, although the current status of the article is POV and unacceptable. I am wondering why this article is not acceptable in wikipedia given this article will be treated with scholastic NPOV. kt2 05:00, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Old VfD discussion
From Votes for deletion:
 * Pornography in Japan - the content is crap, of no use. -- Taku
 * Delete -- Bad, bad stuff. I have to agree with Taku on this one. The focus of the article is on the differences between Japan and the West, and to me the whole premise of this article implies that there is something abnormal or exotic about pornography in Japan as compared to normal pornography. And then the whole tone of the current article emphasizes that sense:
 * "This law may have led to pedophilia since all pornographic depictions of women showed them unnaturally hairless."
 * "The Japanese male dominant culture tends to regard women as more attractive when they are more servile."
 * "Japanese pornography has a number of features which are regarded as peculiar or deviant by Western observers"
 * A link to Dan in Japan: I never expected... so much pornography and things of that sort
 * So, if someone decides to do an article that really compares pornography in different cultures, maybe some of this article could be incorporated, but I do think this article is not working. And yes, I think it is racist. -- Bcorr 03:25, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC) (comments moved here from Talk:Pornography in Japan by Bcorr 04:40, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC))
 * Fix, keep and/or merge with another article.Vancouverguy 03:33, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. Article needs work, but could potentially be very useful. InanimateCarbonRod 03:46, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Hey, Wikipedians worked especially hard to to put this together after it was listed as a special "Requested article" at the top of the page during Requested Articles week. There's no way we can delete the product of all that hard work and researching now, especially considering the articles that had to wait in line just to give this special subject a chance to be removed from the red "Requested Articles" line. Wiwaxia 04:13, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep. We have kept much less informative articles and the subject is a legitimate one to cover in an encyclopedia. I do agree with User:Taku however that Pornography in the United States should have its own article and the pornography article we should make sure is non-US-centric.Ark30inf 04:27, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Rewrite
I have rewritten the article to a large extent. Let me know what you think.&mdash;Eloquence 06:08, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your work on this, Eloquence. I have to admit I'm surprised at how much better it is -- I think the contrast with "Western" pornography is handled much better and the "explanations" of Japanese culture needed to go. However, I do feel that for it to stand on its own, it still needs to have more content that parallels the Pornography article's description of what pornography is -- not as much as that article, but more than is there -- basically more in the article than how it's different from "our porn." It still exoticizes Japanese pornography a bit -- but again, isn't that rather the premise of the article?) Also, I'm still not sure about the whole premise of the article, but it's moved in the right direction. -- Bcorr 13:43, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree that there is no really good reason for keeping the two articles separate. It's not like either is overly long. I have no objections against merging as long as no substantial info is removed.&mdash;Eloquence 21:45, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Normality issue
Reading user:Taku's remarks brings to mind the idea that the article should not endorse American pornography at the expense of Japanese or Asian pornography. How can we say that either one is "normal"? If there are differences, these can be noted. Also, if published authors, politicians, preachers and so on claim there are moral differences, we should attribute those claims to those spokesmen. I feel a bit guilty, because I recall contributing to the article (or a closely related one) -- but I did not pay careful attention to neutrality. I just slapped in a few observations and recollections. User:Ed poor 13:58, 1 October 2003
 * Hello, my fellow wikipedians. I have to admit Eloquence's rewritten version is far better than the previous version. It now nearly looks like other articles in wikipedia, though the great deal of more work is vital. But I still just cannot see the point of this article. Firstly, surprisingly the article does not mainly discuss pornography in Japan. Think an article named, "politics in Japan." Don't you expect the article tells the history of polics, some famous politicians and so on and don't you be surprised if you see an article saying the difference of politics between Japan and the west, adding Japan has deviant political customs or something? Sex crimes is an interesting section but it really doesn't belong to this article at all. It should be discussed under sexuality in Japan or something. About some of my deletions. Any article in wikipedia really should not state too much the difference between Japan and the West. Imagine a sentence like in the US, the meeting is always conducted without prior nemawashi, or preliminary arrangement. It often causes heated dispute. -- Taku 02:20, 2 October 2003
 * You have a point in regard to focusing primarily on differences between the west and Japan. But on the other hand this is an English language Wikipedia and most readers will be able to understand based on these differences.  The comparisons can be helpful to the reader and don't have to be prejudicial, we just have to be sure that the comparisons are NOT judgmental and don't portray western ideas of pornography as somehow "better".  I think the article belongs because Japanese pornography is indeed unique.  In a previous edit the animated "tentacle rape" reference was removed and I have to protest that for example because the animated erotica from Japan is definitely one of the categories that makes it unique.  On the other hand, the scat link doesn't seem to me to belong because really, there are adherents to that sort of thing in the west and its not particularly unique to Japan and is there really a case that its more popular there?  There are also panty fetishists in the west.  It might be more popular in Japan which would be worthy of note, but we should not suggest that its unique to Japan in the article.  Also, the interest in youthful looking subjects is worthy of note, but its hard to suggest that youthful appearance is not a component of pornography the world over.  The article can be useful if done correctly.  I'm also not convinced that the article might be better off under the title Japanese erotica or something. Ark30inf 02:40, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree that porn in Japan has some uniqueness so does any porn in other culture and country. If you look at pornography article, such point is already covered, in my opinion adequately. It should make more sense to expand pornography article than having this article. Also, I must point out that animations seen in the US as Japanese animation doesn't representive typical and majority of Japanese animations. Animations from Japan is often seen violante only because the western audience likes the violence. It is prejudice and sterotyping to claim sexuality and violance is prevalent in Japan, which is hardly true so I deleted it. If you want to have this article, you should discuss porn in Japan, stuff like who is a famous porn star, magazines, photographers and so on. That is an wikipedia article. -- Taku 03:03, 2 October 2003


 * I have to agree. Vancouverguy 02:41, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Seconded. kt2 02:48, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Does someone want to move it to Japanese erotica? Under that title we might also get some ancient Japanese historical erotica and a little cultural context instead of just panties and such. Ark30inf 02:56, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Such article might be good but since this article has no such content. Moving doesn't make sense. -- Taku 03:05, 2 October 2003


 * The main pornography article (unlike this article) does not go into detail about the substance of western porn. Instead of merging, why not start a Pornography in the West? --Jiang 03:45, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Also, I wonder about the decency of encyclopedia. Wikipedia must go to the details of Japanese politcs but I don't think that is the same case to the pornography in Japan. We should more emphasize how pornography affects to the society or its history and legal situations and so on. I guess what kind of porn is popular or such details look odd to wikipedia. They look wikipedia ugly. -- Taku 23:02, 2 October 2003
 * They are still useful information. We don't have a policy of censoring materials we don't like to see here. If it is true and relevant, it stays. --Jiang 23:07, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * We have List of sex positions. --Jiang 23:28, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * Ok, folks. I took a shot at part of this.  If its not like I will not protest a revert in any way.  I tried to NPOV some of it and I removed all the discussion of sex crimes since this is not a sex crimes article. I don't expect this to stick, but thought I would try.Ark30inf 03:49, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Priapus
Priapus, do you have a source for your coprophilia/toilet statement that you can provide a link to? University study or something that shows it is a major part of Japanese mainstream pornography? Ark30inf 04:09, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * I'll try and find a study. I've personally witnessed the existance of numerous such films (let me clarify that I find them sickening and was only compelled to watch for shock value). The trouble is it's hard to find information 'about' pornography. If you search for it on the web all you tend to find is actual pornography. As a starter this is an article about the Japanese obsession to feces, although not directly about porn it deals with the non-porn obsession of Japan with 'poop' : http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/1999/12/13/poop/index.html Priapus 04:24, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I guess we could say that we (US) have a booger and fart obsession. I also had the google problem of trying to search for university studies on this, if you make the search broad you get 400,000 porn sites and if you narrow it down a great deal you get nada.Ark30inf 04:32, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * The article is writtenly by the westerns who little know about Japanese pornography and have seen ones imported and customized to Americans not authentic pornographic works in Japan. The accuracy is questionable. -- Taku 23:02, 2 October 2003
 * Westerners, not westerns. --Jiang 23:28, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Pornography and sex crimes
The section about pornography and sex crimes would be appropriate in an article about sex crimes in Japan, but it is also appropriate here, because it is related to the supposed relationship between the two.&mdash;Eloquence 08:11, Oct 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * It seems similar arguments are already discussed in pornography so I just moved the section to there. -- Taku 23:02, 2 October 2003
 * Not very happy with this. I now favor merging all the pornography articles into one.&mdash;Eloquence 23:14, Oct 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree, Taku has some valid points despite being emotionally involved with the article.User:Ark30inf

Move
How about moving the article to Western views on pornography in Japan since the content is about it. -- Taku 23:12, Oct 2, 2003 (UTC)

Emotional
Come to think of it, I have to admit I am being emotional to this article. If I think objectively what I am doing, it is apparent that I don't want to see the materials in this article. I am being extremely irritated recently. I remeber advice that you should be away from topics you have strong emotional opinions. So I simply refrain myself from this dispute, I will never put more comment nor check the current content or history and so on. I believe there are many sensitive wise wikipedians who can handle this well. -- Taku 23:26, 2 October 2003

Punishment
Is the statement "the punishment for rape and other sexual crime is more severe" correct? More severe than what? Priapus 23:36, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * I personally suspect that a good deal of what differences there are say more about the differences between the laws of e.g. the US vs Japan, than anything else. E.g. the currently being edit-warred-about coprophilia.  I wouldn't imagine any more Japanese are into this than Americans -- merely that the law (as it is enforced, at least) is stricter about banning it in the US.  American-made stuff on topics like this is rather 'underground' in nature, with lower production values and the sense of being done in secret and sold in secret.
 * That being said, this article suffers from the lack of an author who knows the subject in-depth. There ARE significant differences between pornography in Japan and both Europe and the US, but this is more likely to turn into a mess of what Americans think Japanese porn is all about, and what Japanese think American porn is all about. I used to know someone who would write a good article on this, but I've lost touch with them. --Morven 23:55, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

=2004=

Contemporary law
I've added some more details on contemporary censorship laws, which (I think) are essential to understanding how some of the genres originated. However, I removed the bit about Japanese rape and sex crimes. The accounts I have seen seem to imply that sex crimes are a major problem in Japan, but that they are rarely reported and generally prosecuted in a lenient fashion (this comes from some first-hand accounts from people who have dealt with rape cases). If anyone can offer better data, the section may merit restoring. - Sekicho 5 January 2004
 * On the issue of sex crimes being rarely reported in Japan, I took a rather interesting approach to settle this topic at a different place. When a woman is raped, a certain percentage will get pregnant and in those countries permitting abortions as a birth control measure, the number of abortions should increase as women would naturally be inclined to abort the unwanted child.  Here is the number I researched and the conclusion I made.
 * In Japan, year 1975, 671597 abortions, 6545 rape and other sex crime cases reported. Year 1980, 598084 abortions, 5435 cases. Year 1985, 550127 abortions, 4447 cases. Year 1990, 456797 abortions, 4278 cases.  Year 1995, 343024 abortions, 6157 cases.  Year 1996, 338,867 abortions, 5508 cases.  Year 1997, 337799 abortions, 6055 cases.  The number of rape cases each year is only around 2000.  In America, year 1996, number of abortion reported is about 13,700,000.  I don't have that year's rape cases but in 2001, it is about 90000.
 * Even though number of abortions steadly declined in Japan, the number of rape and other sex crime cases increased in recent years. However, I believe this is due to the society understanding that rape is a crime to be punished rather than kept secret and women had became more assertive on when and how to have sex.  If you compare two countries 1996 figure keeping in mind that Japan has half the population of USA, the number of abortion is roughly 20 times more in USA.  However, the number of rape cases is about 22 times more.  I concluded that in the past, the number of rape and other sexual crime cases should have been higher but recent numbers have come closer to standards of reporting of American and European countries.  That often claimed "Japanese women shy away from reporting because of bad treatment" is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
 * Sentences are more lenient, it is true. One of the reason for this is that judicial system does not permit compounding of sentences and judges tend to hand out a non-maximum sentences if this is the first time offender committed the crime.  Also victims are often just raped.  Criminals often use the threat of force only, no beating, no killing, or being a part of robbery.  A combo of crime is rare in Japan and this contribute to the overall shortening of the sentence. Revth 16:45, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with all of the above. ;> The points I like most are:
 * This is an English Wiki: with the Media, and particularly the Net, that denotes a certain generally shared "cultural" POV that is broadly "Western".
 * There is a notable difference: Whether the diff is real, or perceived, it's definitely there, "Japanese Porn" is a Topic (well, maybe Asian Porn, too).
 * More informed input/more facts: Needs all the journo basics, like, what's most popular mag, etc; breakdown by medium (print, film, etc); stats and figures; where does foreign porno fit in Japan (is there a Playboy Japan?).
 * Maybe some illustrations? Picture worth a 1,000 words and all that... Tsavage 03:18, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * There is a Playboy Japan, but it is more of an average magazine than American one. Whether that has to do with the fact that it follows an American guideline when being written is unclear but it is in a regular magazine shelf instead of the adult rack.  There are traditional magazines which offered more adult oriented material catering to the Japanese taste :)  The Sports Illustrated Swimsuits issue that get so much attention in USA never get much attention in Japan, about as much appeal as a hardcore gay stuff does in America.  I wrote little bit about how foreign porno looks to Japanese.  Comparing them to 'that' might seem appaling to you but there are some similarities. Revth 16:45, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Discussion
I too think this article is totally lacking sense. Surely there the uniqueness of asian/japanese porn is big enough to have its own article, but mentioning coprophilia and other practices in this article and not in European/American porn is kind of pointless. A good short definition of porn in Japan can be found in the article 'Pornography': ''In Japan until the mid-1990s, no genitals could be shown, but there is no taboo regarding sex and violence and also much less general concern about portraying teenagers as sexual beings (this applies to both out-and-out pornography and works dealing with other themes). '' pheel 11:50, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This article seems rather racist to me. Anyone have any facts to back any of this up? Pete 23:27, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
 * Ok the two external links do help a bit now that I've read them! Not sure where the coprophilia stuff comes from though. Pete 23:32, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Certainly the article is ridiculous. What is weird is that pornography in the US or other topics are simply covered in pornography article but pornography in Japan is given a special treatment. Once I tried to merge this to pornography, but that was reverted. -- Taku 23:34, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
 * There is nothing at all ridiculous about this article. The culture of Japan has very different pornography and views on pornography. The article is a stub and needs a lot more information, perhaps when I get some time I can flesh it out some more. InanimateCarbonRod 23:38, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * So you are saying America is normal, thus Japan is abnormal. As you see, pages at extern link are completely POV. Something sure different in Japan to Americans but something certainly strange in Americans to Japanese too. If pornography in Japan deserves to its own article, then pornography in the United States should be so. -- Taku 23:41, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

From what I've seen, it's pretty accurate, but I would point out that the listed features of Japanese Porn applies equally well to other Asian porn and almost as much to eastern European porn. The last bit of eating feces is pretty rare for western porn, but the rest of the items on the list are not uncommon in porn from Germany or the USA and even the UK seems to produce similar porn, maybe not so much on the rape side of things however. The Japanese porn I've seen does tend toward the impression of things often being violently forced on the unwilling women/girls, I would even say that theme is the most overt difference between asian porn and porn from other nations. Libdemplus 29 Sep 2003
 * I would venture to guess that "eating feces" is rare for any kind of locale and its porn. If you were saying that "Japanese porn has more poo-eating in it," I would say you have either an ethnic slur, or quite a lot of research to do. :-)&#25140;&#30505sv 19:16, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah, the lack of pubic hair thing, that I would say is exclusive to Japanese porn, though it's common to see fully shaved women in porn from just about anywhere, it seems to be 100% all shaved from Japan. Libdemplus 29 Sep 2003
 * It was actually illegal to show pubic hair until a couple of years ago. If you see Japanese porn that is more than a few years old, the pubic hair is censored (pixelated) which seems particularly odd considering what else is allowed. InanimateCarbonRod 23:45, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * "Similarly to western erotica the Japanese version may also portray various sexual fetishes such as foot fetishism, or a focus on a certain type of clothing such as uniforms (buru sera) or costumes (cosplay)." I have questions on whether it is appropriate to use the term cosplay here. The term cosplay itself is purely based on anime and manga (not necessarily hentai) and has no relationship with pornography. SYSS Mouse 14:32, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * If cosplay and pornography are not related, why do I get so many funny results when I google for コスプレ??? -- Mkill 21:14, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The same could be asked of "cock" and "penis", "pussy" and "cat". Similarities could be drawn from pornographic parodies of popular works ("Terminator" vs. "Sperminator", etc.). Cosplay, at its core, is nothing else than what is done at Halloween in some countries -- just that it is not tied to a specific date, and uses different creatures or persona (i.e. Rei from Evangelion instead of the  Witch from Wizard of Oz). I'm sure there is western porn somewhere that depicts witches; this does not imply, however, that witches are automatically to be associated with porn. IMO, the sentence could do without the (cosplay) in parentheses -- costumes already describes the practice of them being used.Eike 15:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed scat text
I removed the following text: "To Westerners, Japanese pornography is also known for its extreme portrayals of rape, scat fetishism (coprophilia), such as smearing and ingestion of feces. Some Japanese pornography also features induced vomiting, and the subsequent ingestion of the vomitus (often repeated multiple times). While scat fetishism is also found in pornography of other countries, it is more popular and wide spread in Japan. However, these extreme acts are not something widely practiced by Japanese people and the crime rate in Japan is one of the lowest in the world." I don't have anything against scat porn, but I don't see any evidence that it is particularly popular in Japan OR that most Westerners believe Japanese porn is all about scat and rape. Same for vomiting - the fact that there is some really weird porn in Japan doesn't make it indicative of Japanese porn in general. Paranoid 19:04, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * There are actually quite a lot of scatological videos in Japan, with a fascination for enemas and their result (expulsion of feces and often urination) is displayed with no censorship whatsoever. The anal area is exposed in a very obscene manner while the vulva area remains hidden. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.223.89.117 (talk) 17:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

"Mosaic" image
I removed the mosaic image. It appeared unprofessional and it seems to me that it may reflect badly on Wikipedia. It's not that I'm squeamish or censorious, what I'm concerned with is the possibility that a member of the mainstream press may come across this page and mention the image, which is likely to hurt (justifiedly or otherwise) our reputation as a serious encyclopedia in the eyes of many people. Anyway, it adds very little to the article, a reader can imagine for themselves what mosaiced genitals look like. It's better to stay on the safe side and not have any pictures IMHO. --Shibboleth 18:17, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * That picture wasn’t very good indeed, mostly because it showed only the censored part without any context, which looked like a magnified low resolution image (at first I thought it was broken), but I think that for those who don’t know what “mosaiced out” means it should be explained better—unless we are going to add a better picture (which doesn’t have to be pornographic—it might be demonstrated on the example of genitals on Leonardo da Vinci’s Vitruvian Man just as well). Rafa&#322; Pocztarski 00:03, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

NPOV dispute removed
I removed the tag, since the article seems to have been completely rewritten and expanded since the time when it was originally added. The current version seems pretty balanced and encyclopedic to me. Of course if anyone still disputes it, go ahead and put the tag back. --Redquark 22:45, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Please do so. It is still far from being something that can be put to a peer review but I like it much better right now. Revth 17:11, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Done. Sorry I didn't do it immediately, I lost my Internet connection for some reason before it went in. --Redquark 21:37, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Excellent article
I found my way here from Hentai, and I have to say that this is a very well written article. --ShaunMacPherson 13:58, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cultural PoV
Remeber, your POV is cultural. Expand your view and look for improvements. I found the article to be concise look at how the Japanese view erotic art and the differences between judeo-christian biasis vs non judeo-christian. To put it in smaller words: "If it feels good and you're both willing... go for it! But do so with style and grace." No shame and no social stigma. Lest I forget, do not distrub the neighbors and mind your own business. What a refreshing idea! After some thirty years working 'in them heathen lands' I have found that every country's cultural bias is different from the 'good ole USA' and that does not make our (America's) values the only right or correct ones. Be tolerant, you may learn some thing. Static cultures die, dynamic ones evolve. Today's truth is tommorrows silly superstition. ' "It's not the truth that is important, it's the cause." T. Goodkind' --uncle slappy 65.54.98.102 15:34, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chinese
It's just not fair that we should have only a subdivision of Japanese pornography and let everyone else think we are perverted. What about those fucking Chinese? Don't they deserve something like Chinese pornography? I am going to to demand that! User:69.22.208.65 23:39, 27 December 2004
 * Well, then write Pornography in China, I'd be interested to read it. -- Mkill 21:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * What a racist. 74.99.37.138 23:05, 9 October 2006
 * 'fucking Chinese'? Wow, an Asian redneck! But seriously, Chinese porn is near non-existent, except for when it's made OUTSIDE of China *cough*America*cough*. And isn't making or distributing pornography in China an offense punishable by death? Dagari 01:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Porn in both North and South Korea are illegal as well. This rampant rape and cartoon porn seems to be limited to Japan. User:99.238.165.215 03:14, 5 March 2008
 * Ha ha ha, oh wow. 76.95.40.6 (talk) 12:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

=2005=

Article is now protected from vandalism
I've protected the article from vandalism (removed all the damned porn links). Any new changes should be requested here. Ethereal 05:17, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed your notice (you didn't protect the page anyway so the notice was misleading). This vandal apparently adds spam to the article every day from an IP number in the range 81.196.233.0/24, some time between 8pm and 11pm, UTC. I'll add the article to my watchlist and revert. This will permit ordinary edits to be performed. Only use vprotect when there is a lot of trashing going on. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:30, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I noticed it wasn't protected. Is it okay to request for protection? Ethereal 05:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * It's okay, but I think you'll find you don't need it. The disadvantage of protection is that *nobody* gets to edit the article. The George W. Bush article is actually vandalized several times most days and the editors there just revert when it happens and carry on editing happily. You soon get used to it. The vandal is someone connecting through a very small modem pool at Romania Data Systems. Most likely he'll give up soon and go to bother some other site. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:57, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article now really is protected from vandalism
Since the vandal escalated his attacks last night I have protected the page. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 08:11, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * How exactly did you request for protection? I'd like to know. Ethereal 09:17, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Somebody else requested it. You go to Requests for page protection (WP:RFPP is a shortcut that is easy enough to remember) and put the article name on the list, with an explanation of why you think it needs to be protected. When someone requested this the other day I had a look and at first was not convinced, but when the vandalism increased in frequency I stepped in and (wearing my administrator hat) protected the page--I just click a link on my article window, which is not visible to ordinary editors, then edit the article to add the  template at the top.  I have also listed the page on Protected page (WP:PP). --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:27, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I lifted protection now to see if the vandal has given up. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:20, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

More discussion
I think this article is biased in favor of Japanese porn slightly. It completely negates the horrors that certain Japanese pornographic films are willing to go to that are not in the United States. Rather it says that Japanese find American porn to be ridiculous and fake. Has anyone seen the kissing in Japanese porn? I think there needs to be at least a section devoted to (stereotypical) European perceptions (and misconceptions, I know not all of it is weird as hell) of Japanese porn. unsigned User:141.140.125.63 03:41, 14 December 2005


 * There are notable differences: Japanese porn has much much more rape content. Japanese porn has a higher content of fetishism, and takes it to more extremes. Japanese porn has less anal sex. (I really don't know why Western porn has so much Anal sex). Also, Japanese Lesbian porn is very different. The standard backgrounds and situations are different.
 * But, there is one thing to consider: The really awful films that some here may know over the internet are not "usual, commercial Japanese porn" but illegal films distributes over the internet. (Usual Japanese porn is still bad enough). But we should be careful do draw conclusions like "I saw Japanese porn where somebody ate feces" -> "Japanese porn is about eating feces."
 * One more thing: The goal of this article is to describe Japanese porn and give the reader some understanding of it, for whatever reason he wants to know about it. If you want to condemn Japanese porn and its horrors, something I agree with, please don't use Wikipedia articles for it. Try a women's rights group website. -- Mkill 21:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

=2006=

History section needs to be revised
I'm sorry, but the history section here is very poorly constructed, especially those relating to the pre-Edo period. Firstly, there are no references, and statements that appear "random" at best. It must be understood that the literary history of this period is heavily influenced by Chinese (especially when it comes to poetry). Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to make appropriate suggestions - but I think at the very least we should expect references to blanket statements. OzzieB 03:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Discrepency from Coprophilia article
Coprophilia says "Scat fetishism is featured prominently in some Japanese pornography". No mention of "scat" in this article. Well... this should be fixed. DyslexicEditor 03:26, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * If we try to mention every little fetish that is served by Japanese pornography the article will be well over 100 pages. I think we can safely leave out some of the irrelevant stuff that is just disgusting... I don't think there is a comparative statistic of porn industries indicating the percentage of films that include scat, and if their was, I don't want to see it. Anyway, the above statement will be hard to prove, so we can leave it out. No, just that you can name 10 movies that contain scat doesn't mean it is "prominently featured." -- Mkill 20:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think the fact that you (or anyone else) thinking it's disgusting or not should be grounds to make the information available or not. I do believe this should be pursued, no matter how disgusting it could be, if only to try to give as large a portrait as possible of this topic. I do believe there is a bigger prominence of that fetish in Japan, and in researching it, obviously I doubt anyone would appreciate any information being censored purely on the grounds that it's editors found it disgusting. User:70.83.21.93 03:46, 6 January 2006


 * I have to disagree. The sentence quoted from the Coprophilia article does not imply that Japanese Pornography is defined by it, just that the depiction of the practice of coprophilia can be found in some Japanese pornography. This has nothing to do with it being disgusting or censoring this information on that basis, either (at least not for me). Just because A may contain B, B is not indicative of A. (A being Japanese pornography, B being coprophilia). If you can make a case that coprophilia is, in fact, a defining factor of Japanese pornography (and should, as such, be handled in this article), by all means, make the case. It would be a good idea to link from coprophilia to Japanese porn (if that sentence does, in fact, hold true), but the reverse is not substantiated by data IMHO :-) Eike 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think you're confusing "prominent" and "more prominent". While coprophilia is more common in Japanese pornography than Western pornography, that doesn't mean that it is prominent, any more than it would be fair to say that, because getting struck by lightning while wearing a t-shirt is more common than getting struck by lightning while wearing a tuxedo and jeans, that getting struck by lightning while wearing a t-shirt is therefore a common thing.210.160.15.16 02:04, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Implied chauvinism
The fourth paragraph under History implies that only men can be consumers of pornography. I have rewritten it so that it won't imply so (considering, of course, the fact that that was the perception regarding men at the time discussed). Silentium 09:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claims
"It is increasingly common for original doujinshi to portray underage characters; in the United States, this is known as lolicon, a contracted form of "lolita complex."" Is this anything but pure conjecture by somebody who has seen lolicon? Eike 15:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Japanese view
"In general, the Japanese tend to view Western pornographic materials as being crudely made, artificial and comical." Where do you guys get that kind of "facts"? In any case, it's the Japanese who make their pornography crude, artificial and comical. There's no objectivity in such claim. In any case, there should be a mention of how Japanese see their own pronography, and not how they see Western pornography. Loborojo 20:16, 21 August 2006
 * I think Loborjo is right..that bit is rather biased. Even if it was written by Japanese person with an extensive knowledge of Western porn, it would still be opinion-based. Objectivity should be the aim here. Dagari 01:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It needs to be taken out unless you can find a poll of either Japanese pornographers or Japanese people who have made this statement.70.190.43.12 (talk) 20:44, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Gay porn
Would anybody object to inclusion of content relating to Japanese gay pornography? 68.252.246.148 17:52, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The article as it currently stands seems to assume heterosexuality. There are articles on Wikipedia about gay Japanese magazines such as Badi (magazine) and Samson (magazine) and the defunct Barazoku. I'll add a section--Larrybob 20:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Child pornography in Japan
Why has this issue been ignored? I have to say, having been to Japan many times, and having some experience at Japanese pornography, I think that this article by and large misses (or has been POV'd away) that there is is an incredible amount of child pornography in Japan: in particular the "non-explicit" sexualisation of children. There are many "soft-paedofilic" publications available in normal shops depicting prepubescent girls in a variety of situations (not necessarily sexual in nature, but clearly designed to evoke sexual responses). There is no doubt in my mind that this forms a definite "pornographic-genre" - and unfortunately the existence and indeed prevalence of this sort of material has been dismissed as being "youth-centered". There is fairly clear evidence (in my mind) where young girls (even younger than 10) are groomed through these "soft" photobooks to heighten anticipation amongst readers for their eventual true-pornographic debuts as a means of increasing sales (granted, my opinion only).

I don't want to make a huge moral stand here - but it seems to me that we are still viewing the Japanese pornography culture through rose-coloured glasses. Having a Japanese wife who has first hand experience at the high-rate of "perverts" praying on schoolage girls in Japan, I feel compelled to at least raise this as a discussion topic.

Obviously I'm also approaching this subject with a heavy POV, so I'm not sure that I would be able to objectively write on the subject. I note that the article mentions (in passing) about Japan cracking down against pornography between adults and minors - and that there is a POV argument regarding the anti-pornography movement (PTA in particular), but casts this in light of access of the material to children, not the participation of children. Enough of my soapbox though...OzzieB 03:47, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the U.S.
They couldn't just only destroy their own culture but others as well. -G User:134.117.157.66 06:14, 30 September 2006

Why the squealing?
Usually in Japanese porn, the girls squeal like they are being tortured. Why is that? User:83.249.21.79 01:33, 24 November 2006
 * Because they are asian User:70.23.105.101 16:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I looked up this article for the sole purpose of finding an explanation for this sort of childish and submissive behaviour, especially for the apparent portrayal of discomfort among the female participants (and not in rape-themed pieces either). This article had no mention of this whatsoever. 216.254.166.131 (talk) 06:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would like to read more on this too. For example, in the ero manga Virgin Night by Tanaka Yutaka which I had recommended to me as being "happy" and "positive," still one of the chapters has a girl saying things like "no, don't!" and "don't touch me there!" etc. This is between a supposedly consensual couple with mutual attraction. If I had to make a guess I'd say it's related to the creation myth where the first man and first woman walk around the pillar, meet, have sex, and produce only weak babies because the "female should not take precedence of the male." I'm not about to write that in the article though. But it ties in to a bigger, equally interesting issue of traditionally acceptable Japanese female behavior. Froghat (talk) 02:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Its fantasy. Japan has a huge social crisis where women dont want to mate with Japanese men. Overtime these rejected men develop weird fetishes like rape, squealing etc.99.238.165.168 (talk) 18:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

=2007=

Fair use rationale for Image:SDDM677.jpg
Image:SDDM677.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 10:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

=2008=

Drawings equivalent to child molestation?
Why are lolicon mangas included in the child pornography section? That's completely misleading. Child pornography has a clear connotation of involving child molestation and traumatization, which is why it's illegal. The production of drawings does not involve those things. Even US law recognizes this. 38.98.223.57 (talk) 06:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

What
What the hell is this talking about? Many girls will get their hymen reattached although most men involved in compensated dating will take with them the hymen as a memento. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.77.245 (talk) 20:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And why isn't it cited? If wild claims like this don't demand substantiation, then what does? 71.154.8.52 (talk) 21:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Citation
"Japan is also the biggest market for pornography industry including sex toys and fetish material such as girls wasted panties." Doesn't a statement like this warrant a citation? 71.154.8.52 (talk) 20:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sex in public
I know that some Japanese porn companies are making videos that show gay guys having sex on public transportation, such bus and subway. I guess you can rent a bus, pay actors to be fake passengers and stuff like that, you cannot do it for a subway. I saw various videos about guys having sex on a bus and on the subway, and I'm talking about real non-amateur videos that are sold by Japanese companies in Japan. I would like to know if there is a Japanese law that allows sex in public or not. Not for my own sake, just because I think is an important topic to discuss on this page, since is something you don't see in European porn or American porn. --85.18.136.105 (talk) 15:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Implants or other plastic surgery
I've noticed, and its the main reason I like Japanese Porn, that most if not all of the AV Ive seen the women don't appear to have any implants or other "Enhancement surgeries" done. Is there a social stigma on this in Japan or is it just something in the pornography? Either way if someone knows of a write up about the reasoning it would probably be good information for the article. 70.190.43.12 (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Very misleading/incorrect statements

 * "Figures for the total value of the Japanese child pornography industry are hard to come by, but annual sales of manga alone in 2000 amounted to over US$5.5 billion, nearly one quarter of the total sales of all published material in Japan. It is estimated that 30–40% of manga contains sexual themes or content, much of it representing schoolgirls of elementary or junior high school age in themes including rape, sado-masochism and bondage."

Not only is this an unindicated, direct quote from a news franchise founded by a Singaporean business man (who's country's authoritarian and cencorship tendencies are pretty notorious) I also find it quite boldly and deliberately missleading. It is pretty clear to me that this person is going well out of thier way to convey these "facts" in such a manner that Japan seems to be completely overrun by the dirtiest, most horrible smut imaginable. That may be the western perspective, but i think it's excessively sensationalised.

First, it seems to make the claim that child porn manga is a $5.5 billion industry in Japan, but it seems pretty clear to me (without bothering to check, feel free) that these figures are refering to ALL manga, not just child porn, or porn at all. Comics in Japan are a fully valid, multi-genre media, and quite pervasive compared to the west. Manga can be found about any concievable topic, just like books and television shows in the west, such as teen romance, corporate power plays, and basketball. Yes, some of them are pornagraphic, but not most by any means!

Then, while the claim that "... 30–40% of manga contains sexual themes or content..." may be accurate, we HAVE to be aware of cultural differences here. Right here in this article, and others, it is mentioned that sexuality and nudity are not nearly as taboo and offensive of topics in Japan as in the US. Even ribaldry and suggestive titilation are a FAR cry from pornography! Of that 30-40%, I'd be willing to bet that MOST is simply humorous, suggestive, or even quite tasteful, but not smut, especially from the Japanese cultural point of view.

It then goes on to make it sound like most manga involves under-age "... rape, sado-masochism and bondage." The wording is tricky, but it is clear that that is the conclusion that you are meant to come to, and you will unless you are really paying attention, are incredibly open-minded, or just know better. Realistically, there is lots of manga in Japan. Some of it is pornographic. Some of this pornographic manga involves under-age "... rape, sado-masochism and bondage." The same could be said of US and western comics, or pretty much any other media. A big deal is made about hentai because it is culturally different and thus seems bizarre to us, we're especially repressed, and hentai is a major cultural import from Japan, BECAUSE that IS what sells HERE. WE are the perverts! There is lots of perfectly tasteful, touching, beautiful manga, even involving sex, but no one thinks western audiences want anything but smut, which it seems they mostley do, so it never gets imported. It really is a shame, as in US entertainment all I have to choose from is dismal soft-core crap, and the most debasing, disturbing hard-core and bukkake, also really crappily made. But people freak out about hentai because of the occasional tentacle. Lame.

Also odd I thought were the couple statements about "Enjo Kosai":
 * "Enjo kosai or "supportive relationship" is the euphemism used in Japan for the prostitution of teenage girls."
 * "Enjo Kosai ("compensated date"): Although available on video, this genre mainly applies to the market for girls 13–18 years of age. Girls are told they are going on a date, which, due to Japan's age of consent of 13, is not illegal. Virgins demand a very high premium, and many girls will get their hymen reattached although most men involved in compensated dating will take with them the hymen as a memento."

The Wikipedia article on enjo kōsai makes it quite clear that this relationship is not necessarily sexual, and is generally accepted by those involved. It is hardly uncommon for attractive young women to have relationships with rich older men for material gain in western societies. I guess we make a big deal out of it in Japan because the Japanese are sexually active younger, and it may be more common, but equally it may just be more accepted, blatant and open as opposed to being hidden and secretive as here. This is their culture, and I think it is pretty dumb to be getting all huffy and judgemental just because we are so inhibited and ignorant of cultures other than our own. That hymen comment is just really random also... in fact, there is no citation at all for that entire "Sub-genres of Japanese porn" section!

Really, I think WE are the perverted fetishists for getting so worked up about stuff that I imagine the Japanese take as natural environmental filler. And I think it is a reprehensible trajedy that the incredible beauty and artistry of much manga and anime is largely ignored by the ignorant bulk of the US mainstream because people "know" it's ALL just terrible smut. Knee-jerk reactionary rhetoric of dubious origins is a sad disservice to the world, weakens EVERYone's position, and has no place on Wikipedia. Elgaroo (talk) 03:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi, Elgaroo. As someone who has edited in the area of Japanese erotic entertainment, I agree with you-- this article is a mess. Its horrible state has bothered me since I first began contributing here, but whenever I think about doing some work on it, the sheer size of the task holds me back... This article needs to be scrapped and started over from scratch... I have collected several sources on the subject, but still not enough, I think, to put together a good, comprehensive article on the subject. If you want to work on the article, please do, and I'll be happy to help by contributing whatever bits and sourcing I can. Dekkappai (talk) 04:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)