Talk:Porsche 959

Untitled
I see "group B" referred to in this article, but have no idea what "group B" is, or was--apparently a class for really high-powered cars, but what are the details? Thanx-- Doovinator 03:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Canepa Link
Why was my link to Canepa removed?

Because it is veiled advertising. It is also inferred that Canape legalized teh 959. He did not. Canepa's modified 959 wheels cracked when the car was driven during a review for an article.

Seinfeld did not pay $700,000.00 for the Sport model #027 he purchased. the car was in vacuum storage in Switzerland from new. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.100.33 (talk) 00:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I thought it was advertising before I read the whole article. I've put it back now. SamH 17:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * That's alright, I refrianed from putting it back myself before I could find out why it was removed. I think I'm done here and on the 911 article. I'm still working on additional information for the 928 (which I see you are a major contributor for) before I move on to the 924 and 944. Eventually I'll probably touch every page Wikipedia has about a Porsche model, I'm planning on moving to the 912, 914, Type 930 Carrera and 356 - to name a few - in the near future.


 * Just some advice: it might be helpful if you got a username if you're going to edit all the Porsche pages, since it'll provide you with a few useful tools like a watchlist. You don't have to disclose any information, or anything, it's just a login handle. Also, when you edit talk pages, it's helpful to sign them with four tildas ( ~ ) -- that'll add your username and date/time of edit. Rlobkovsky 19:56, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Done and done.

Flash-Gordon 06:45, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Porsche 959 Picture
There used to be a picture of the Porsche 959 in an orangey color (what I know as Burnt Ember). Is there any way I could get a copy of this picture, because the car was just beautiful?

Wikimedia commons is the solution to your problem. Search on google about that and you'd be taken straight to that category. U1Quattro (talk) 15:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

merge with porsche 959 prototype
definitely merge prototype article into this one. also, when i look at the protytpe article, it looks very similar to another webpage (see the talk page there) so moving the stuff out of there and deleting it would be good. Gzuckier 17:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

959 AWD Legacy
I made a few changes to the legacy section since it didn't indicate clearly enough that the four wheel drive system on Porsches built after the 964 used a much more simplified version of the AWD system - for reasons of cost and the fact that the 959's derived AWD system gave the 964 C4 a front wheel drive character according to many Porsche experts, including Porsche Guru Bruce Anderson. It is now a known fact that the cost to repair the 964's AWD system if it goes kaput can be absolutely terrifying, to the point that a 964 C4 is worth substantially less than a 964 C2 on the used car market today. Recently, Porsche Club of America's own magazine Panorama featured an article on how to convert a 964 C4 to a C2 in order to get a way from potential problems with the 964 AWD system. Kanitz 20:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Classification
I believe the 959 is an undisputed supercar and should be classed as such. User:Wikiarrangement] seems intent on classifing it as a sportscar because I was involved in a discussion that resulted in the [[Nissan GT-R being labeled as a sports car and I list the 959 as one of my favorite cars, a clear violation of WP:POINT. I have provided the following references from reliable source all of which class the 959 as a supercar.  The result of the discusion on the GT-R talk page was to reserve the supercar label for clear cut examples and based on the number of sources that use the super car label in reference to the 959 and the lack of any sources that dispute the its supercar status I feel the supercar tag is clearly needed.  In addition the Wikipedia Porsche template classess the 959 as a Supercar and miss matchiing classes from the template to the individual vehicle pages is confusing.  In addition to the list below, Evo Magazine one of the most credible sources in sports car magazines classifies the 959 as supercar.

Caneva
I removed the Caneva advertising. It is not even closely encyclopedic. Khutuck (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Production figures
I replaced the unsourced production and sales figures with the ones given by Karl Ludvigsen in his book. Also, the figure of 292 given in the infobox, was taken from the Porsche website allright, but apparently excluded the cars produced in 1986 (16 prototypes and 21 preproduction models, according to Ludvigsen) and the 8 cars built in 1992. It is unclear, though, if the 961 is included in that figure. --328cia (talk) 12:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Porsche 959
I'm not quite sure why the link was removed as the link was relevant to the porsch 959 car, linking to videos, and articles that specifically apply to this car Is this link irrelevant to the content of this page Porsche 959 Video although i think i may have put this one in before which gives more options than jsut one videoAll 959 related articles —Preceding unsigned comment added by CAR Online (talk • contribs) 15:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read the guidelines on external linking. The links removed were not specific to the Porsche 959.  Also, at least one of the pages required Flash.  Wikipedia is not designed to be a collection of links.  swa  q  15:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Untitled
Stephan Wilkinson is referenced as the source on Bill Gates car. GAte's car is a 1988, # in the 200's. The car was in a free trade zone in Oakland, CA, not Seattle. Gates did not buy the car until 1990. Paul Allen had not imported his car as of 2004. Jerry Seinfeld's car was imported mid 2000's. It received an EPA exemption. Why, I do not understand. Paul did not have anything to do with the Show and Display law. Nor did Canepa despite what Canepa states at his website.

Rolandpage (talk) 15:17, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Bill Gates and Paul Allens Role in the "Show and Display" Law
In the "Gates 959" section it is cited that Bill Gates and Paul Allen helped pass the "Show and Display" law that made it legal to bring the 959 into the country. However neither citations actually say this is true. The Gold-Plated Porsche by Wilkinson also makes no mention on their involvement. It is true that Gates and Allen are mentioned on pages 21 and 22, but only in the fact that they both tried to import one unsuccessfully. (You can read those pages on the Google Books preview)

The link to the NHSTA site dosent mention Gates or Allen at all.

Other searching leads me to similar dead ends. Any concrete evidence this is true? Because it seems like its just an internet myth at this point.

Racingfreak92 (talk) 22:00, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I found this article: http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/display-speed-under-show-or-display-exemption-americans-can-now-import-previously
 * "...This urban legend does not come from Gates himself, but it comes from enough vehicle importers, collectors and Department of Transportation worker bees to believe it's true..."
 * still no evidence however Drachentötbär (talk) 01:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

short-lived
In the racing section we have: "Thus ending short-lived the career of the 961." "Short-lived" doesn't add any information and is personal opinion by the editor inserting his personal standards and therefore should be removed. Many racing cars don't last a full year (Formula 1 cars are replaced every year by a new car with a new name), reading "short-lived" I'd think of cars like the Dauer 962LM which had only one participation. Drachentötbär (talk) 01:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Rallying
I feel like much greater clarity is needed regarding the 959's relationship with rallying. The opening paragraph says it was originally manufactured as a group B rally car (implying the first examples manufactured were built as rally cars - I suspect not), but the opening paragraph of the "Racing" section seems to imply that Porsche never intended the 959 as a rally car at all, and later it's stated that the 959 was "never seriously considered for a Group B rally season" (as cool as that would undoubtedly have been), albeit without a source.

Presumably the inseparable association of Group B and rallying has muddied the waters here - I'm sure a lot of people have read that the car was developed for group B spec and immediately made the assumption it was intended as a rally car - and possibly also the 959's famous win at the Dakar rally, but surely there's a source to be had on whether the 959 was developed with any consideration of rallying. Ichigoichigo (talk) 18:11, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

In the history section. It states that it was intended for rallying. That's confusing now since there has been confirmation and denial of facts at the same time. U1 quattro  TALK''  11:44, 20 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Road&Track https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/classic-cars/a22001159/porsche-959-paris-dakar-for-sale/ writes: "Porsche's legendary 959 was originally conceived to enter Group B rally, but the class was banned before it had the chance." Most sources name Henri Toivonen's death on 2 May 1986 immediately followed by the FISA ban of the class for 1987 as end of Porsche's rally plans. Speculations whether Porsche would have taken part 1987 or 1988 if Group B still existed don't need to be in this article and should be removed. The "seriously" makes the sentence unclear and misleading.
 * I suggest removing the first paragraph from the article and adding its content into the second one and the history section. Drachentötbär (talk)


 * We all know that Group B was cancelled but denying that Porsche was not serious at all to enter the car in group B is beyond me.  U1 quattro   TALK''  17:50, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Define "not serious at all". Does the statement apply to all possible definitions of it at all times ? Drachentötbär (talk) 21:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

You can find it in the racing section. I don't have to define anything. U1 quattro  TALK''  03:34, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

"Never seriously considered" has the same meaning. U1 quattro  TALK''  03:35, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Connection with Group B
The article implies in the lead that the 959 was developed for Group B racing whih required in excess of 200 street legal units to be built. Even in the history section, it states the development name of the car as Gruppe B and then in the Racing section, this is denied altogether. This is very confusing to the readers. There has to be a source confirming that the car was not seriously intended to compete in Group B. As I don't see why any company would develop a technologically advanced car, get it approved for rallying and then build so many units of it for no reason in the wake of economical crisis. U1 quattro  TALK''  11:50, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Give this a read, it covers the development history of the 959 quite well, and it has some info on why the 959 never went racing in Group B (by the time they met the homologation requirement Group B no longer existed). I think the motorsport section should cover this. Toasted Meter (talk) 10:37, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for providing the source. I have reworded the section and added this source. U1 quattro  TALK''  14:20, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

959 successor
what proof do you have that the 911 GT1 succeeded the 959? The GT1 has an entirely different purpose and philosophy than the 959 and hence is not a successor to the 959. U1 quattro  TALK  06:09, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It's a turbocharged rear engined homologation special, I can see the similarities. The road cars diverged quite a bit, but so did the Carrera GT having a NA V10, removable roof and no use in professional motorsport. I think that no successor is probably fine. Toasted Meter (talk) 11:43, 29 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Its not rear engined, but rear, mid-engined. Also, the GT1 wasn't developed for Group B class racing but GT1 class racing and was mostly a 962 underneath. I don't see any similarities other than both using flat-6 engines. U1 quattro  TALK  15:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Denloc beads
I think the article should explain WHY the car was fitted with the special Denloc bead tires and hollow wheels. The main text just says that it was fitted with hollow wheels, but gives no information, which is kind of baffling to a reader that doesn't know why. Later is says that new, normal rimmed wheels were developed for US import cars (again not explaining why the old ones were not allowed), and says "new high performance Michelin tires were fitted that allowed the same performance" (or something like that). The reason for the special Denloc beads is because they didn't think that tires of the time could withstand the unprecedented forces of such quick acceleration, and would spin on the rims when the car was launching (IIRC they were also supposed to support and internal tire pressure adjustment system for the eventual Group B cars, which explains the hollow wheels, otherwise all they would need is some sort of bead locks). These were not legal in the US, because like many trivial things like covered headlights, they did not meet the letter of US regulations on what sort of wheels were legal for street use. When they finally imported them, the law still stood, but modern tires had proven themselves safe for the acceleration forces and there was no longer any need for the hollow wheels or tire pressure system. I believe this was all in an article of Road & Track or Car and Driver (possibly Automobile) sometime in 2016 or 2017, although I'm sure it can be found elsewhere.

Idumea47b (talk) 05:28, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Removal of Canepa Design modifications
I believe that the Canepa Design modifications section should be removed. I wasn't able to find a single source showing that Porsche had anything to do with it - No support, no comission, not even any acknowledgement. It would be fine if there was an offical lik such as the McLaren P1 LM, wich was made by a third party company but with support from McLaren. However this doesn't appear to be the case. The Canepa Design modifications of the 959 are just like any other aftermarket modifications, and in my opinion those shouldn't have a significant portion of the article devoted to a particular aftermarket conversion. If we did so, the VW Beetle article would just be a massive list of dune buggy and kit car conversions.

I believe the way this should be handled should be similar to the Dauer 962 Le Mans. There is only a brief mention of it on the Porsche 962 article, and since the Dauer 962 is notable by itself, it has a dedicated article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frongicide (talk • contribs) 23:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)