Talk:Port Adelaide Football Club/Archive 1

Misc
"Port Adelaide Football Club is an Australian Rules Football club, playing in the Australian Football League (AFL) and the South Australian National Football League (SANFL)." This isn't actually correct, is it? The current Port Adelaide SANFL club is not connected with the current Port Adelaide AFL club. Would this be more accurately written as: "Port Adelaide Football Club is an Australian Rules Football club, which graduated from playing in the South Australian National Football League (SANFL) to competing in the national Australian Football League (AFL)." --The Brain of Morbius 05:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * They are two different sides of the same club. I've seen how this is so explained in different places but can't find an example of this at the moment.  --Roisterer 21:03, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. That's completely the opposite of my understanding from discussions with Port supporters on sites such as thepowerfromport.com and bigfooty.com - odd.  Are you sure?  --The Brain of Morbius 06:42, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the time taken to respond; the server has crashed each of the three times I've tried to answer. The official explanations I referred to above are not at hand (they were in hardcopy annual reports and the like) but I found the following (unofficial) explanation at


 * Port great Russell Ebert, four-time winner of the Magarey Medal (the SANFL's equivalent of the Brownlow) and father of present Power player Brett, said it was wrong to think of the Power and the Magpies as two separate clubs, despite the fact Port Adelaide continues to field a team in the SANFL.


 * "For me, personally, it's an extension of that long history. We've played in many, many grand finals, we've been successful in them and this is an extension of that proud history and tradition and success now in the premier competition in Australia," Ebert said.


 * "It just staggers me that people don't understand that. They want to bring in all question marks, but it's the Port Adelaide Football Club. It's an extension of the proud history of the Port Adelaide Football Club."''


 * I guess if you wanted to look at it from a legal sense then one could argue that they are two different entities due to the fact Port had to set up a separate structure for the Power so it complied with some law that I won't even pretend I understand but without the aforementioned annual reports I can't really give the full information on the whole issue. Anyway, this probably doesn't help much.  --Roisterer 03:38, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Club History recollection
The 'club history' part is certainly more balanced now, but the club still came into the league (as a new club) and as 'port power' and this was changed in the yr 2000 to 'port adelaide power' there is to be no mistake about this. The club itself held a press conference to say so. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Outbackjack (talk • contribs) 9 Jan 2005.
 * The club was only new to the AFL in 1997 — the same old club simply moved from one league to another, changing colours on the way, and a legally new club (with the same colours as the old one) was started to compete in the SANFL. Confusing, I know. Later, the nickname fans were encouraged to use was changed as you say, for reasons which doubtless made a lot of sense during the marketing department's brainstorming session, but the club — the legal entity running the show — remained the Port Adelaide Football Club. ～J.K. 02:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So confusing, in fact, that I had it wrong. The article now reflects what actually happened. ～J.K. 13:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Quote:The Port Adelaide Football Club was first founded on 20 April 1870, and played its first match on 24 May at Buck's Flat in Glanville[1] (in comparison, Manchester United was founded in 1878, and the sport of basketball invented in 1891).

Why use Man Utd, who are relatively young, as a basis for comparison? Why not mention Sheffield FC (1857) Notts County (1862) or Queens Park FC (1867)in Scotland? Probably because they are older than Port...........poor attempt at historical revisionism ala Graham Cornes in the Advertiser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.43.227.18 (talk • contribs) 31 Jan 2006
 * No, Man U are used because they are, unfortunately, the best-known soccer club in the English-speaking world. As for Graham Cornes, I admire your fortitude for actually reading his crap, though perhaps not your time management skills. ～J.K. 11:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * So Port are the best known club in Australia? If not it seems to be a non-consistent use of clubs here. I'd either use the oldest (Sheffield or Notts) or none.

What has this got to do with anything anyway? PAFC may be quite old - but its a long way off being as old as Geelong or Melbourne FC. I really don't see the point to this note. User:RoyalDave

I was present at the meeting where the members voted on Ports move to the AFL from SANFL to AFL, I also voted at that meeting and am aware of the terminology used by the club. it was the PAFC that made an AFL bid, it was the PAFC that was awarded the bid, it was the PAFC that entered the AFL. that was the sequence of events. The SANFL demand for a PA entity to remain in the SANFL is why there is a PAMFC, the Port Adelaide Football clubs prefered option was to leave and be a part of the AFL only. The club is its members. There is no PAFC in the SANFL only the PAMFC the easiest path for us at that General meeting was to vote the PAFC out of the SANFL and to maintain a PAMFC as the local Port Adelaide entity...the simple option was to register the name PAMFC as the Ports entry in the SANFL, not the AFL....because we voted to move the Club the PAFC to the AFL Now ...I can see you will play a legal game, but as I stated before the club is its members, and however the PAFC needed to move out of the SANFL, it did..we voted we moved.. The PAFC according to all literature was formed in 1870..the PAFC is now in the AFL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.6.183.33 (talk • contribs) 1 Feb 2006


 * Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Sorry if I've been a bastard about this. I'm a Port fan too (not a member, too broke) but I've been dealing with idiots, vandals, Crows fans and the like around here for too long. I'd like to get this article featured on the Main Page someday — ideally, the day after we win the second Showdown this year ;o) — but to get it there, there's a lot of work that needs doing. It's great to have someone who was actually there working on the article, but the sick thing about the site's verifiability policy is that actually being there doesn't count for much without being able to cite paper sources (books, newspapers, annual reports, whatever) someone else wrote about what happened.
 * The other problem is — I'm sorry, but there's no polite way to put this — you're not a very good writer. There are mistakes in your grammar, you leave sentences unfinished, you're still learning the ropes when it comes to how the formatting codes here work. (Most important thing: double square brackets go around links to articles, usually ones with that title -- you can't use them for emphasis.) I've been trying to work your good points into my hopefully-good writing, and I haven't been doing a very good job of it, putting some stuff here, some at Port Adelaide Magpies and letting some slip through the cracks.
 * So, what I'm planning on doing here next:


 * Merge Port Adelaide Magpies into this article; the separate articles were like that when I got here, but it doesn't really make sense to keep them that way. It's ridiculous, having two different history sections for the same club.
 * Add sections discussing the current AFL and SANFL teams.
 * Find out what was going on with those Champions of Australia matches and maybe write an article on those we can link to.
 * Write to the club's PR department to see if they've got any photos they'll licence for us to use (the copyright rules here are strange; the photo we've got of Choco here's gonna be deleted sooner or later because we don't even know who took it, let alone if they're cool with copyleft licensing). All else failing, we can go to games or practice sessions, get seats near the front and take our own.
 * Dig around for old photos, say Fos Williams at his prime — anything before 1955 is out of copyright and we can do what we like with.
 * How's that sound? ～J.K. 08:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm no Port historian, but air this on the Port Adelaide board and you'll get a good response on people there who know how to write and who know their history inside out.  R o  gerthat  Talk  11:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

1.Keep the Magpies seperate. 2. I Understand the writing stuff, I type away in between work and business commitments, No spell check or grammar correction..sorry about that. 3. Havent had the time to figure out the emphasis things etc. 4.Know a bit about the PAFC 5. Drop John Devaney at full points footy an email...he has resources you would never dream about. 6. Alot of the clubs history you will find is not easily verifiable, or poorly recorded, or worse still, misquoted, misconstrued and printed from an unfriendly self interested perspective.So what happens 10-20 years down the track, young players doing research look it up in the mortlock and Go "Ah, Great a verifiable source" , "Where's yours old timer?"..."Oh, cant quote one huh?, You were only there and lived it". 7. Spent many a day with Ports old Historian, the late John Wood in the Mortlock.

Continued Troubles
Just to start, I have no affiliation any side in the AFL so this is a NPOV. The two articles Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club and Port Adelaide Football Club are in conflict about the Port Adelaide "Power"'s entry in to the AFL


 * From the Magpies article and in 1995 an organisation separate legally from the existing one but intended to carry on the old club's heritage and culture, the current Port Adelaide Football Club, was incorporated to further the bid. It was successful in time for the 1997] season. The SANFL club changed its official name to the present Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, and continued to take part in the state league, winning two premierships in the late 1990s without success since.


 * From this The Port Adelaide Football Club played its last season in the SANFL in 1996. In 1997 it joined the AFL. The first club from another league to join the VFL/AFL since 1925.

I really have no motivation to sort out the conflict, just thought I'd highlight it. Also, i'll have to second the writing, recent edits are definatly not NPOV and if you're just hacking between work commitments perhaps save up the edits and spell/grammer/wiki them in one hit? Oliyoung 23:36, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Continued troubles : hardly, here are excerpts from both football club websites

Here is the statement from the Port Adelaide Magpies football club website:

In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivalled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the formation of the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996.

From the Port Adelaide Football Club website is this info:

The Port Adelaide Football Club is arguably the most successful senior football club, not only in South Australia but Australia-wide.

Since playing its first game in 1870, the club has gone on to win an Australian record of 34 SANFL premierships (up until 1997) including six in a row and achieve the honour of being Champions of Australia on four occasions.

More recently there has been another landmark in the club's history, the joining of the country's national competition - the Australian Football League. On joining the AFL, teal blue and silver were added to the famous black and white, along with a new nickname, Power, to avoid a clash with the Collingwood Magpies.

In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivaled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the formation of the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996.

All the above info is verifiable at both the Port magpies football club and the Port Adelaide football club websites.


 * This still needs citations if you are making statements of fact (also, please add four ~ after your message to sign it) Oliyoung 02:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Clean Up
I've spent half an hour starting on clean up on this, fixing the english, wikifying the relevant details and marking sections needing verification, but it needs some serious work as a wikipedia article. 04:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Still needs work, maybe there's scope to merge Port Adelaide Magpies and this into one article, if the differentiation between the Magpies and the Power can be explained well enough? 02:44, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The Invincibles?
I'm busy turning The Invincibles into a dab page at the moment. In researching it, I read here and here that the 1914 Port Adelaide football team were know as "The Invincibles", but it's not mentioned in this article. Should I link here from my dab page? I think I should do so if and only if the name is significant enough to be mentioned in this article.

Stephen Turner (Talk) 11:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

John Wood (Former Port Historian) referred to the PAFC 1914 side as the invincibles on a number of occasions in discussions with me. I am pretty sure he has a section on them in his unpublished 2cnd part of his trilogy on the History of the PAFC "simply the best" 1902 - 1939. I think I have a photo of the 1914 side that may have Invincibles on it, I will check it out and get back to you.

The PAFC is not the PAMFC
[[We have a situation where an edit is being made claiming the PAFC is still in the SANFL. The club in the SANFL is the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club. The same Editor is also trying to revise the name of the Port Adelaide Football Club and shore up a perspective by claiming the PAFC is actually "Port Power Football Club" This is incorrect, there has never been a Port Power Football Club or as also has suggested a "Port Adelaide Power Football Club"  When the PAFC left the SANFL it had to change its nickname from the Magpies to avoid a clash with Collingwood. It chose  Port Power . The club then found that public perception and mischevious revisionists were claming that this was the name of the club "hence the misguided revision here ", The club changed the nickname to Power to try and rectify the ignorance in the community, the Club was still called the Port Adelaide Football Club.

The PAFC has "est 1870" inside its foyer. Referance has been made to "in our short history", this is purely in relation to the time period the club has been in the AFL. The PAFC was est in 1870. Its AFL history is short as it entered the competiton in 1997. I am glad I could clear this up.]]

When you are stating 'facts' as above, its best to cite them. The club origionally had 'est 1997' it was changed after some time in late 2000. The Port Magpies in the SANFL claim the history -please check their website. The AFL port adelaide power club does infact not, they will not correspond to confirm their history. It is not in their interests to be linked to the port magpies with its smaller supporter base.

Hope that clears it up for you.


 * From the offical Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club Website (thats the one in the SANFL if you didnt know) "In 1997 the Port Adelaide Football Club joined the Australian Football League, in many ways the crowning achievement of more than 100 years of unrivalled success. It maintained its presence in the SANFL through the formation of the Port Adelaide Magpies Football Club, who share the records and history from 1870 to 1996" - http://www.portmagpies.com.au/about.php


 * That makes it clear that both share their histories, both founded in 1870. Hope that clears it up for you. CtrlDPredator 17:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Club Jumpers
This section is currently a bit of a mess - boxes aren't displaying correctly in either firefox or IE, and the season 2007 clash is not present. Someone with the expertise needs to fix this section.

I think you have mixed up "port adelaide power" with the port adelaide magpies, remove the history of the magpies, because that isnt the powers history


 * There is no 'Port Adelaide Power", only "Port Adelaide" (now in AFL) and "Port Adelaide Magpies" (in SANFL). Read through the talk page, it has already been covered. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CtrlDPredator (talk • contribs) 06:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

History
Since when have the Power been around in 1877, ive checked all the books and there was no mention of the Power, Further, why do they claim they are the magpies, which is the origionaal club, did the magpies move to the AFL, or was a new team made to join the afl?

e made his debut in 2002 in the AFL. He has been a steady contributor across the forward line for the Powe

thats a player article, it says he plays for this "power" team you claim doesnt exist, im pretty sure they do...

SAFTAG 12:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC) This history issue appears to be a very contentious issue and would only be solved by legal opinion from qualified persons examining the actual documentation at the inception of the "power". Until then we are relying on biased anecdotal evidence from "port supporters" or anti-power people.

I suggest that the following questions be posed to those qualified to answer them categorically. 1) Was a new legal entity created to form "the power"? or for the "the port adelaide magpies"? 2) Was the entity employing Brian (Bucky) Cunningham, Greg Bolton, John (Jack) Cahill, et al. changed at or around 1997? Who paide the wages in 1996? Who paid the wages in 1997? What about player payments? Who paid those? 3) What is a "footy club"? A side of 18 or so players? or a legal entity of officers/administrators? or a jumper (guernsey)? Is it the players or the administrators?

My opinion on the issue revolves around several facts/factors.

a) Players, supporters and media persona often quote that "playing for the jumper" is a major motivating force. b) The "power" plays in different colours to the "magpies". Did port "since 1877" give up their colours to the new "magpies? c) Some "port adelaide" supporters became "Adelaide Crows" supporters in 1991. In turn some of them stayed with the "Crows" post 1997 whle still supporting the "port adelaide magpies" in the SANFL. d) The father/son rule in the AFL is quanderous. Fathers who played against "Port" in the 70's,80's or 90's now have sons that may be eligible for priority selection by the "power". If they were the same team/side/club would that be possible? e) The "power" side that played in 1997 only included a handful of "port adelaide" players from 1996. The 1997 "magpies" on the other hand fielded rather more 1996 "Port Adelaide" players in 1997. f) And finally is it appropriate to mention "34 or 35" SANFL premierships when none of those premierships were contested against even ONE other "AFL" side.

My opinion. SAFTAG