Talk:Port Said Stadium riot

Move protection
Due to the move war (which is especially disruptive when an article is linked from the main page), I've protected the article from renaming. When consensus for a particular title is reached, please request unprotection. (Any administrator should feel free to oblige.) —David Levy 03:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Name
I think the name should include the word football. Also, the words riot, violence and hooliganism jump to mind. Speciate (talk) 05:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * the format is the same as Heysel and Sheffield and has more or almost as many deaths. thats a disaster. Clashes is vague, every fight/attack is a clash. 06:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Lihaas (talk)
 * Then those others should contain the word football too. Speciate


 * I don't think 'football' is necessary in the title, but 'disaster' should be. Look at Category:Stadium disasters: most of the articles in there have it in the title. 'Port Said Stadium riots' would be a possibility, but I think 'Port Said Stadium disaster' would be most appropriate. 'Clashes' seems like something of an understatement given the number of deaths and injuries. Robofish (talk) 11:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I support Robofish's suggestion. The current title trivialises the scale of the event. yorkshiresky (talk) 14:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In addition from the reports it is apparent that some of the deceased were people caught in the crush while trying to escape and not involved in the fighting as such. yorkshiresky (talk) 14:27, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think "disaster" accurately depicts this incident because it was not simply a stampede (as many of the incidents are in the stadium disasters CAT), but human violence. It trivializes the incident to label it an impersonal disaster when this was precipitated by human clashes. Plus it seems a to be a bit of WP:OR, since it appears most media don't call this is a disaster: "soccer match riot" (WSJ ), "soccer melee" (NYT ), "soccer riot" (AP ). Therefore, I recommend the page be maintained as "Port Said Stadium clashes" or be renamed something like "Port Said Stadium football riot".
 * A stapede is not human violence?Lihaas (talk) 02:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In a stampede, there is not an intention to murder (which makes it an impersonal disaster, tragedy), as opposed to this incident which from the start was a violent melee. Plot Spoiler (talk) 03:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The name of this article is outrageous. Disaster implies something out of human control. Let's just call WWII a disaster too, or slavery a disaster, or the genocide in Cambodia a disaster for that matter. Clashes also doesn't do this article justice, as what happened here is more akin to a massacre. Murdering people with knives and throwing people to their deaths is not disaster! A stampede can be fairly characterized as a disaster, as in a stampede people don't actually intend to kill one another. Here, people clearly intended to murder other people. Calling it a "disaster" is outright racist, as it implies that Arabs are subhumans who like animals cannot control their violent behavior. So long as Wikipedia editors continue to erase objectivity in favor of political correctness, their articles covering more controversial topics will continue to be a distortion of reality and therefore less than useless. If these where white European fans, it would not be called a disaster as decent behavior is expected of "white" people. However, as this article deals with Arabs, and particular North African Arabs with brown skin, the standards of human behavior are thrown out the window. This is truly racism and racism in Wikipedia is just not acceptable! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.183.217.19 (talk) 09:27, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Port Said Stadium disaster. Favonian (talk) 18:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Port Said Stadium clashes → Port Said Stadium disaster – As per above discussion the current title trivialises the nature of the incident. Additionally the requested name follows the same nomenclature of similar articles under Category:Stadium disasters eg Heysel Stadium disaster. Hack (talk) 16:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * support per my comments above.Lihaas (talk) 02:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - Agree that this title is much more accurate a description. Nearly 80 people have died to date as a result. Jus  da  fax   07:04, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Per discussion above. Port Said Stadium disaster is descriptive of the event and similar to other stadium disaster events. Truthanado (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Yes.  Lugnuts  (talk) 14:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Clashes is too vague in this title and doesn't reflect that so many people died.  Del ♉ sion 23  (talk)  19:42, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Suggest move to "2012 Port Said football riot", per apparent standard for such events. I note that media have called it, variously, the Port Said Stadium clashes, disaster, riot, violence, and massacre.   Now that I look at what we do most commonly with such events, it appears that we call them riots.  See, e.g., 2008 Congo football riots, 1964 Lima football riot, Wrocław football riot 2003, Lansdowne Road football riot, 2000 UEFA Cup Final riots, and 2008 UEFA Cup Final riots. It also has the benefit of being a more descriptive phrase than the passive-sounding "disaster".--Epeefleche (talk) 19:53, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Prior involvement of ultras"
"The ultras are said to be profane, boisterous and prone to unpredictable behavior". This could describe any one of literally hundreds of ultra groups. How is this relevant to only one side of this riot? Hack (talk) 16:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC) L:cause it describes ulytras as it suggests.Lihaas (talk) 02:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe the wording of this section needs to be that the ultras were one of many possible parties that might have started this riot. The title says it "Potential involvement of "ultras"" but the text doesnt. I also think all other possible causes for this riot need to be included in the article as there are many theories and the article only talks about the ultras. This link from the bbc describes the other possibilities (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16864901). Toyaser (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Nombre del artículo
Is there any solid proposal to change the name of the article? 190.51.173.157 (talk) 21:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm guessing that you are new in Wikipedia. There is a proposal to move the article above (move = renaming). Flamarande (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

suggestions
SHould mention that it was a premier league match, no cup or friendly. Also it should be mentioned that the kick-off was delays due toe fans storming the pitch and that the pitch was stormed after each of the 3 gioals for the home team. Also another premier league match was abbandoned mid-play due to this match. -Koppapa (talk) 10:40, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Add it, if you can source it.  Lugnuts  (talk) 14:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, as a German, i haven't read to many english sources, so i added a reliable German source. Someone interested in this sure could find a English one to replace it later. Diffs. -Koppapa (talk) 10:25, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

shortcomings
This article has a lot of shortcomings. Most of it doesn't make sense. The second section refers twice to the "home team",  without it being at all clear which team that is. It refers to "rival fans" attacking the players of the losing side? This makes no sense. The fans of the winning side usually just gloat, they don't attack the players of the losing side. It is usually their own disgruntled fans that attack the players of the losing side. Overall, the explanation seems to make very little sense at all. It seems like there is some key fact missing. Is there a political or religious motive behind this event ?Eregli bob (talk) 03:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There is speculation as to the underlying causes. But it is not counter-intuitive to me that home fans might attack visiting players and their fans -- even if the home team wins.  I'm sure you can find similar events, in which fans of winning teams have committed violence after a victory.  In fact, even in Egypt itself, at a prior football match, there is precedent for a visiting team/its fans being attacked, even though the local home Egyptian team won the match.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So which is the "home team" here ?Eregli bob (talk) 08:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Obviously the team named first, AL-Masry. Well not obviously then, i'll change. -Koppapa (talk) 08:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Not obvious to anybody not intimately familiar with the Egyptian football league, which I suspect is the majority of the world's population.Eregli bob (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Considering suggesting (another ... unfortunately) move
I'm considering suggesting a move, as discussed above -- this is what I mentioned just before the prior move discussion closed, so others did not have a chance to consider it.

The rationale is: "Suggest move to '2012 Port Said football riot', per apparent standard for such events. I note that media have called it, variously, the Port Said Stadium clashes, disaster, riot, violence, and massacre.   Now that I look at what we do most commonly with such events, it appears that we call them riots.  See, e.g., 2008 Congo football riots, 1964 Lima football riot, Wrocław football riot 2003, Lansdowne Road football riot, 2000 UEFA Cup Final riots, and 2008 UEFA Cup Final riots. It also has the benefit of being a more descriptive phrase than the passive-sounding 'disaster'."

But before I test the waters formally, I thought I would see if there was any strong objection.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:22, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move
Suggest move to "2012 Port Said football riot". As is typical for wp articles regarding such events.

Media have called it, variously, the Port Said Stadium clashes, disaster, riot, violence, and massacre.

We most commonly entitle wp articles relating to such events ".... riots". See, e.g., 2008 Congo football riots, 1964 Lima football riot, Wrocław football riot 2003, Lansdowne Road football riot, 2000 UEFA Cup Final riots, and 2008 UEFA Cup Final riots. It also has the benefit of being a more descriptive phrase than the passive-sounding "disaster".


 * Support. As nom of suggested move.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. Can you have a riot in a non-public place? Hack (talk) 09:52, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. As per Category:Stadium disasters, it would appear that using "disaster" is the more common practice for naming this type of article and not as nom states. I also think as User:Hack points out, that "riot" may not necessarily be the right word here, which is supported by the above examples given by nom generally taking place in towns, rather than in the stadiums.  Also, I see no reason to disambiguate with a year.  And it would appear that this goes against consensus in a recent move discussion above.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 16:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Recommend: Massacre. After reviewing the other riot pages above, there doesn't seem to be anything even close there. I think this event is in a league of it's own. The football game seems insignificant to the rest of the events. Jeff Carr (talk) 23:17, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Out of date
The article mentions the al Ahly coach going away for a month and several players retiring. Did the coach come back and are the players still retired? Hack (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Trials?
As this article will be getting more attention after the announcement of the verdicts, more particulars are need about the various accused, the particular charges, the evidence for each of the charges, the presentations made in court, etc.165.121.80.146 (talk) 08:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The current riot (police riot?) should be given a separate article
--Niemti (talk) 04:00, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Li9nks
>> Retrial ordered over Egypt football disaster(Lihaas (talk) 15:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)).

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 * Added tag to http://espn.com/sports/soccer/story/_/id/7532975/the-politics-egypt-football-riot-brent-latham
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 * Port Said Stadium-Feb 2012.jpg