Talk:Portugal/Archive 1

PORTUGAL TALK ARCHIVE 1 August 2003 - August 2005

Communist Bias
Afonso, please stop you communist bias in this article. And, the parties (that you constantly remove moved by political reasons) in the related topics are the biggest parties, every article has only the biggest ones. The rest are very faar away. -Pedro 18:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Where is such communist bias? What caracterizes a big Party? Membership? Influence? MPs? Afonso Silva 19:20, 11 May 2005 (UTC) obcession with fascism, ditactorship, carnation revolution, things from that time, that noone cares about. Portuguese communists are locked in 1974. Who decides the biggest parties is the people who vote for them! You know that there are only two big parties in Portugal, everybody knows that. If the communists were among them you wouldnt care. wouldnt you? -Pedro 20:21, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I really enjoyed reading your words, you just said that concern about democracy and freedom is communist bias, I really think you're right, thanks comrade! I would care so much that I included all the parties with parliamentary representation in the list, from PP to BE, not only the PCP, unlike what you did, of course, so, if someone is making bias is not me, perhaps it is you.
 * If carnation revolution is a thing from the past why don't you go back and try to live under the Fascist rule? Perhaps you would not be able to open that silly mouth for so long, ask older people, ask the tortured and the imprisoned, they are not so few, they are hundreds, and they really noticed the change. I want to remember the Fascism just because I don't want it back, it's not any stupid obcession... Carnation revolution marked the rupture with the past and opened the path of the future, our future, the youth's future, the one you're walking through, right now! Even don't deserving it...
 * Reading your words I became ashamed of a part of the Portuguese youth, but more proud of being a son of those who made and respect the democratic Revolution.


 * You love the word, admit it. Buy paint and write Fascist on your bedrooms roof and you will always remember. Those parties arent notable, you add them all just to add the communists. See India, USA, etc. These articles have only the major parties and not minority parties. In modern Portugal the government is PSD -> PS -> PSD -> PS... (always centre-left and centre-right) As for others that are reading, although there are recently politically moved people on the wiki, they are rare in Portugal. -Pedro 22:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't love the word, but I like to use it when needed, 3 times in the article, once the word Olivença (that's a thing no one cares) was used a few more times, if a regime was Fascist, I like to say it was, as 90% of the Portuguese. You never proved that it wasn't, prove it! Perhaps you can't, that's it.
 * USA, good joke, just tell me, who are the others? But it's OK, at least the PCP has the best page, but you won, keep your favourite parties in the list, the world won't change because of it. But you're right again, we have such a few interest in politics in Portugal that only 65% of the people voted in the last election, that stupid minority! Even the Prime-Minister had to be hired to an outsourcing company as no one volunteered to the job. Afonso Silva 22:54, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I've no favourities parties (although I usually vote only in these two). You seem obcessed by one. And that is odd! Considering you're young and most of the voters of the communists are old people that's odd. Has i told you, I see the word "fascist" has POV. And, I dont hear it a lot. Just the communists use it in TV. People say it was a dictature (and that word seems ok). It is also ok to use "fascist" once. But not, 10000x. Parties: the articles from wikipedia must be marginnelly standardized. If other articles start to use all parties in related topics, this one should also do that. That's good if the PCP has a good article! I hope it is npov.-Pedro 10:51, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * It appears 2 times in a 7900 words long article, if anyone is getting paranoid, that person is you! Maybe you should get informed about that old people, because the electoral results show that in the last election, the voting in CDU in the last numbered voting tables was superior to the voting in the respective parish in about 80% of the parishes, analyze the numbers, then talk. Get your eyes out of the TV and learn for yourself. The youngest MP in Portugal is Miguel Tiago, guess the Party. . Take off the sunglasses and start analyzing the reality and the facts in a dialectic form. You will get many surprises. Afonso Silva 12:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I dont watch much TV. I'm always glued in front of a computer, fortunately and unfortunately. :S Although my home PC has TV. The PCP has ben steadly declining. Many say it is proportional to the death rate of old unlearned people. (sorry.... not my words). The Bloco de Esquerda is a leftist party and that one is the one that attracts many youngsters (bacause of their modern left positions in abortion, democracy, schools, homossexuality, and other areas) i even considered voting for them. Why? many people were revolted with the previous government, so they wanted to reverge. All parties from the left went up (because the parties of centre-right and right were in the government). The PCP even gained MPs in Porto what is odd and unnatural to a region that prefers centre-left, centre-right and right parties. The PCP will probably loose them in the next elections and continue its natural decline. Afonso, this is enough. Now it's ok. left stop this conversation it is not interresting.
 * mas eu gosto de ver o contra-informação quando posso! Ui adoro o boneco da Odete santos. Acho que é a pessoa mais carismática do partido. -Pedro 13:58, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Pre-Roman Tribes map
I've made a map, but I don't have the proper tools to make a better one. If you could help... -Pedro 20:39, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removal the templates on the foot of the article
what do you think? The foot tables are incontrolable, it talks about islands in Asia, it has flags of other countries... a military organization... It seems very out-of-context. If one sees the article for a second thinks Portugal is in Asia and has a red and white flag.... or many flags. I think the best is to make them has categories: one for Europe one, another for the EU one and another for Nato. -Pedro 14:04, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Noone has an opinion? o_O -Pedro 12:24, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think they're pretty useful (at least the EU and countries in europe ones). not sure about the NATO one, but all the other NATO countries have it... NATO may be better as a category, and Countries in europe maybe, but i definately like the EU one. FrancisTyers 15:33, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Flag
I've notived that the flag shown in the article has not the 2/5 of green and 3/5 of red, the red part is slightly larger, I think that should be fixed, replacing it by a better flag. Afonso Silva 11:28, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

National motto
The page for Portugal in the Portuguese Wikipedia states that the national motto is taken from the 6th verse of The Lusiads. After much search, I found an English translation of it here. It seems very hard to find a complete translation of the Lusiads in English anywhere!

-- Luís Sequeira 21:25, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lisboa e Vale do Tejo

 * Some missinformed people are always changing the now two Regions: Lisboa e Vale do Tejo to just one. Since 2005 they are two regions!
 * Parem com isso, só dão imagem de ignorância! Já me diziam: Quem não sabe não mexe para não estragar! -Pedro 10:22, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Pedro, I'm afraid you're wrong. But also right. "Lisboa e Vale do Tejo" is not anymore a region in the current regional division of Portugal, but it isn't also two regions.
 * This division of the territory is defined by NUTS (Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistical purposes). This is a statistical nomenclature and in Portugal INE (Instituto Nacional de Estatística) is the responsible for defining it. This nomenclature is defined at a higher level for the EU (European Union) by Eurostat.
 * Until 05/11/2002 this nomenclature defined, at level II, 7 regions: "Norte", "Centro", "Lisboa e Vale do Tejo", "Alentejo", "Algarve", "Açores" and "Madeira". The nomenclature was changed in 2002, and currently the number of regions is the same, 7, but they are: "Norte", "Centro", "Lisboa", "Alentejo", "Algarve", "Açores" and "Madeira". What changed is that part of "Lisboa e Vale do Tejo" now belongs to "Centro", another part belongs to "Alentejo" and the rest of it is now "Lisboa".
 * NUTS version 2002 was adopted by the "Decreto-Lei nº 244/2002, de 5 de Novembro" and also, at EU level, by the Regulation (EC) nº 1059/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 26 May 2003, published in Official Journal of the European Communities L 154, of 21 of June 2003.
 * I'm sorry but I'm new to Wikipedia and I'm not sure on how to change the articles to correct this. If someone does it before I learn how to do it I'll apreciate it.
 * I also think that too much focus is given in the section "Districts and Regions" to the metropolitan areas and urban communities. The main division of the country is between "Distritos", "Concelhos" and "Freguesias". The metropolitan areas are just associations of "concelhos".

--Fernando Reis 01:41, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Since january 2005: Lisbon and Vale do Tejo became separated mostly due to good development in Lisbon and lack of it in Vale do Tejo. The Metropolitan Areas will eliminate slowly the Distritos and Civil Governments (heads of Districts) are due to be eliminated while new elections for the Metropolitan Areas will be made. But this could change due to the new government. But I dont think so, the process is already too advanced. For regions of Portugal for the EU, see an official EU map. -Pedro 10:53, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What does "became separated" mean? I suppose we're talking about political / administrative division of Portugal. Or are we talking about a natural division of the territory? That I don't know. I'm not a geographer! Please provide a documental reference to prove what you claim! I can't find any official (i.e. legal) source refering to the creation of the region of "Vale do Tejo". I also find very interesting your vision on the evolution of the regional division of the country, but I thing that an entry in an encyclopedia should stick strickly to the facts. A visit to the official website of the Portuguese government clarifies that the base of the political and administrative division of the territory are the 3 regions of Continente, Açores and Madeira and the "Distritos". At EU level, the relevant regional division of Portugal is defined in the Regulation I referred to in the previous message. No need for any official EU map! Please check in Eurostat RAMON database (http://ec.europa.eu/comm/eurostat/ramon/nuts/codelist_en.cfm?list=nuts) that at level 2 there 7 and not 8 regions in Portugal.--Fernando Reis 21:37, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Slavery
Why is there no mention of Portugal and the slave trade? That was one of the main reasons for the exploration of Africa. Portugal was the world leader in trading slaves during the 15th and 16th centuries.

Featured article
The August FAC nomination was not successful. The entire discussion and comments is archived at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Archived_nominations/Index/August_2004#Portugal

Keep up the good work - Taxman 17:15, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

I've proposed this article to be featured and some objections were made. Can we try to solve them? I'd love to see this article featured...


 * Object. A few things:
 * Certainly hope not to offend, but there is a fair amount of language in there that appears to be from a non native English speaker. Nothing wrong with that, but it does need to be tightened up.
 * There appears to be some text missing in the 'Lusitania Romana' section, one of the sentences is incomplete
 * The intro needs to be reorganized to discuss the most important info about Portugal, and about half of what is in the intro now does not qualify for that.
 * The multiple main article links seem out of place. Those can all be linked in the history of Portugal or be put in a Portugal category.
 * Is Portugal really only an independent entity because one, unnamed guy decided he wanted to be and it was an opportune time while the other Iberian power groups were fighting?
 * - Taxman 13:03, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)

These are the objections made by Taxman. Is there any body with a fluent English that can correct the so-called parts needing "to be tightened up". Gameiro Pais 16:13, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I think it is now a nice article. -Pedro 00:27, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I've made grammar adjustments for about half of the article. There's just one thing about the article that bothers me, though: the history section (which is very well-written, by the way) states that main article is at History of Portugal, but that article is shorter than the History section of Portugal! The History article doesn't go into as much depth as the History section, especially for Portugal's early history. In fact, they seem to contradict each other on the matter of Viriathus. I think Portugal is a great article, but I wouldn't feel comfortable voting for it as a Featured Article until the consistency issues are settled. &bull; Benc &bull; 01:00, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Portugal article references:
 * There's many myth surrounding Viriathus. What is in the Portugal is what is studied, and not a Portuguese myth or anti-myth. I think History of Portugal is a very bad article, and i wouldnt like to touch it, cause I would change everything. And this article has nothing to do with that one.
 * Viriato-A luta pela Liberdade (2003) - Mauricio Pastor Muñoz (Spain) - "viriathus, the fight for freedoom" (simply the best book written about him and his nation - very complete).
 * História de Portugal (...-2004) book I - Ângelo Ribeiro (author of Book I) (talks about lusitania - formation of Portugal & Lusitania) - 20 books on the Portuguese History (best Portuguese historians participate on it) - I really dont think Portugal article is deep. It barelly touches the country's History.
 * Grande Enciclopédia Universal (2004) - Portuguese Encyclopedia

It hasnt any internet reference. That are very dubious. It is a truthful article.

thanks for the edits. -Pedro 01:44, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Portuguese people...
Just to state that there are some Portuguese sailors nominated in here. I don't know what this is but it seems interesting...--212.113.164.98 16:30, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Naming of Portugal
I think we should do an article named Naming of Portugal and the leading section should have a resume of the History of the country.-Pedro 02:19, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Lead on!  Is there enough information other than what is already on the Portugal page?  For me, the naming traces the history rather dramatically so that it is easy for me to place in my mind the rest of the items in the Portugal page. That vignette of the "naming" makes Portugal very, very unique among nations.  ---Rednblu 17:27, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it has more information, but not much more than this. The visigoths had had an important victory in that area, so they have started to use the name "Portucale" extensivelly. "Galicia" also can be of the same origin, since in the area of Porto, there was a people known has Calaicos (the name Galicia is certainly from Calécia that was taken from Calaicos. But if that is related to Cale I dont know. There is one more possibility, the name could be Celt, but this is not supported by any historian has far as I know. But I agree with you, the name already shows the History of the country.

More info: Later the area of Portucale, became a county. The county of Coimbra joined Portucale, became both know has "Portucale", they made the independence and the south was conquered to the moors, and the sound "c" changed to "g" -very common - Has in "acqua" (whater in latin) became "agua", so it became known has "Portugale", sometime later "Portugal". plz, give your oppinion in Wikipedia's Featured Article Candidates (click the link in the top of the page -Pedro 10:53, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * This article is very good! One change I would suggest would be to remove the info. on the naming of Portugal to a section further down, perhaps under History.  The intro. should be short and sweet.  Nelson Ricardo 02:36, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

The city of Porto was called by the Moor (I don't know if it is was built by them) Bortugaal (Burtuqal in the map), which means in Arabic language Orange (whether the word is arabic I don't know).

http://www.hukam.net/maps/atlas-006/hispana_antica_47_1.gif

http://www.hukam.net/maps/atlas-006/hispana_antica_48_1.gif

Hi (please sign your comments). That maps are very interresting. But that name is possibly from the previous roman name "Portus cale" or commonly spoken has "Portucale" or "Portugal". The also named Coimbra has "Qulumbryia". -Pedro 13:20, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that the name is from "Portus cale", I am just saying that Burtugaal in Arabic sounds like orange, that's all! Today Portugal is pronouced with a soft g (like the french pronouce r). --130.161.31.126 14:58, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC) (just an IP...)


 * I think that is very interresting and should be mentioned. Please see History of Portugal and manage to put your info in there. (there's a section about the naming). -Pedro 15:53, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Savages
"In addition, Portugal contains several island territories in the Atlantic, including the Azores (Açores), Madeira, and Savage (Selvagens)"

Is this a mistake? Aren't the Savage part of the Madeira Autonomous Region? When we study the geography of Portugal we say that the Archipelago of Madeira is made of Madeira Island, Porto Santo Island, the Desert Islands (Desertas) and the Savage Islands (Selvagens). If we mention the Savages in the introduction we must mention the Deserts, on the Madeira Archipelago and the Ants Islets (Ilhéus das Formigas), on the Azores Archipelago. I suggest we change the expression "island territories" to "archipelagos", with the Savages not being mentioned.--Joao Campos 16:30, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Savage islands are an archipelago, part of the autonomous region of Madeira, but an archipelago. Desertas is part of Madeira Islands (archipelago). The Savage are not. Selvagens are very far from Madeira. Much more near to the Canary Islands. --82.154.162.179 11:41, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fado
I think we should delete the hole paragraph of Fado (and use it to complete Fado), and leave only a reference to it. It Wikipedia's policy not to have things duplicated when there's absolutely no need for it. Comments? -- Marianocecowski 08:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Infobox
Why isn't template:Portugal infobox used?--Jerryseinfeld 22:50, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Because User:Gzornenplatz is on a personal crusade to remove all the infobox templates from Wikipedia because he thinks that templates are harder to edit. Apparently he can't see the edit button at the bottom of the table. Putting this table in another page makes editing the main article a whole lot easier. —Cantus&hellip;  &#9742;   09:50, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry to write this here, but I don't know how this wiki thing works... Could someone just update infobox in Portugal's page? It says there that the official language in portugal is GERMAN!... But it links correct to Portuguese page... :\ PedroLopes 7/Jan/2005


 * Done —Cantus&hellip; &#9742;   09:50, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)


 * I really think we should put the infobox back with the edit button. I've also putted a controversial website about Portugal. If you disagree with it, please say why and remove it. -Pedro 17:56, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Economy
"Portugal needs to advance structural reforms to boost the country's economic competitiveness." This doesn't sound very NPOV to me, anyone else? FrancisTyers 14:06, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Under population it says "i love joe" somebody change this!!

Euro vs. Escudo
(1) Prior to 1999: Portuguese escudo what's is the use of this information? Portugal had lots of currencies before the Escudo. That's just money. If I see an escudo coin circulating or banknote I'll find it odd. But I keep some escudos and reis (the currency prior to 1911). Even before the Reis we had real, cruzados and coroas. Why the escudo is so special to be mentioned in the article? Pedro 16:50, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * The escudo was the last currency used before the introduction of the Euro. This should be of note for all Euro-zone countries. Brooklyn Nellie (Nricardo) 10:51, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * why? The Euro is seen as a national currency in here. It has the national seals on it, with the word "PORTUGAL" in the traditional templar kinghts (those who help to reconquest the country) style from early Port. History. More... They are produced in Portugal. How can the Euro not be national? Well some of it... many are from France, Germany, Spain, and others. There are 12 (+2 or 3) different euro national currencies. Nothing has changed, they have just the same name, and are accepted in all the Euroland). People don't feel that the Euro's a foreign currency, normally when some one says: "its a foreign currency" people start to laugh, and they are wright. The euro is just a fusion between the 12 currencies or they are 12 similar currencies accepted in all of the 12 (+ microstates and other countries). When the Euro was launched, people almost immidiatly shifted to it. I think that's just a British or American POV. The last national currency is the Euro and not the Escudo. --Pedro 13:34, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Olivenza
in the article: ''Portugal claims Olivença, administrated by Spain, as part of its national territory. ''

Earlier, I've edited that the country recognized that Olivenza is a Portuguese territory administrated by Spain (a court in Portugal said that, when pronoucing about illegal reconstruction by Spain on Portuguese National Heritage in Olivenza: the court said it has no power to "do" law in that territory because it was administrated by Spain though it was POort. territory). The current phrase is also correct. Another problem is that, there is no official border in that region in Portugal's official map. When I get some extra time I'll create a new map with this and other things (e.g.: the islands are not also shown in the current map). And considers Leixoes an important city, when it has only an important harbour, but it is only a village (or small town) from Matosinhos.Pedro 13:24, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I've made the map. Its not professional, but its ok in information about the REAL Portugal. Who can make a best map using this one... please, be my guest. Pedro 02:28, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I must say that this whole Olivença problem is way overemphasized here. In Portugal almost nobody cares about Olivença. Of course, officially the government states that Olivença is still part of the Portuguese territory, but most people have accepted the fait accompli. And concerning the map problem, I never saw a Portuguese map actually including Olivença. I think Olivença should be mentioned here, but not to the extent as it is right now. What about putting it all on an Olivença page? Luis Rib 17:56, 4 Oct 2004 (CET)
 * This is an encyclopedia. The official map of Portugal doesnt have a border in that region. If in maps you see a border in that area, that map is incorrect. It will be correct if it includes the borders of municipalities/ districts but it can never be an international border. How can it be overemphasized? No body cares? Have you read newspapers latelly and see the online foruns when the news is Olivenza? It seens a lot of people, today, cares about that. Even if they wouldnt that is a state issue. Unfortunnatly, I dont have the URL for the official map of Portugal, I dont remember the site :( For me it doesnt seem that people acpept that, they simply dont know more info about that (most even they didnt know about the issue)howed. But it is best not to overemphasize. But I dont see that in the article. -Pedro 17:48, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

People
I would change the link called Portuguese people to Famous Portuguese. I thought the article was going to be about the people. User:portcult

Independence of Portugal
Portugal declared independence from Kingdom of Leon in 23 of June 1128. In fact, some time before this date.

Portugal was independent when the Count of Portugal turned to be the king of Portugal - the year was 1139 (Till today there are many countries that are independent and have a prince, for example, as the head of State.)

The king of Leon and Castille officialy recognized Portugal as an independent country in 1143. THE REAL RECOGNION DATE! AND THE OFFICIAL INDEPENDENCE DATE THAT PORTUGAL USES!

The pope recognized Portugal as a full independent and cristian nation in 1179. What was a normal thing in the vaticam, because the independent countries MUST GIVE TO THE POPE GOODS, Portugal didn't in the beggining.

So, declaration of Independence: 1128 Recognition: 1143

1139??? 1179 ?!?!?!?!?!?! What?????????????? Never even heard of that dates, not even at history classes! Only when reading some history books.
 * I've always heard about it! 1943 is a simplification.

Explanations:
 * 1128: Afonso Henriques definetly defeats the mother - Batalha de São Mamede
 * 1139: Battle of Ourique Afonso Henriques acclaimed king
 * 1143: Santarem conquered to the Moors
 * 1174: Aragon recognizes Portugal as independent; marriage Sancho I with princess Dulce of Aragon
 * 1179: the Pope (the super power back then) recognizes Portugal as a kingdom
 * only after this, when exactly i do not know, Castile recognizes Portugal
 * see also Timeline of Portuguese history
 * i hope this helped, Muriel

 There is a document. I think that is the Treaty of Zamora, that declares Portugal Independent. I dont know for sure if its that treaty. Altought the king of Leon was the same of castile, they were independet countries from each other. Like what happened to Portugal, the assimilation was slow.

Portugal was a rebel county, that declared independece, that's why the mother of the county of Portugal (now countess of Galicia) tried to regain the control of Portugal to Leon. You do not need a king to make a country independent, not even a pope to recognize, even in medieval europe. User:PedroPVZ

Dear Pedro, I have to go now (going out...) but i promisse to discuss this with you properly. Stay in touch. If you like portuguese history, have a look on the portuguese kings: they need work. Cheers, Muriel, que apesar do nome esquesito é meio portuguesa :)


 * Caro Pedro (vamos falar em inglês para os outros perceberem), i have two problems with the dates of our beloved country.
 * Independence from Leon - i think it is also Castile
 * I fing very odd that Leon recognized Portugal so soon (four years) after the declaration of independence.
 * Do you have any reference for these things? I would like to discuss this further with you.
 * Cheers, Muriel 10:20, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 From a History book used at schools, is the only that i've at home. But i could search more in libraries. And i've got a book about Portugal's origins and legends, but it is very extensive.
 * 1097 - Sir Henrique governs the Portucalensis County.
 * 1128 - By the Battle of S. Mamede, Sir Afonso Henriques assums the head of government of the Portucalensis County [jully, 24th]
 * 1143 - Treaty of Zamora: political independence of Portugal
 * 1179 - «Manifestis Probatum» Bull - The Pope Alexander III recognizes the Kingdom of Portugal
 * 1249 - Full conquest of The Algarve (king Afonso III)
 * 1297 - Treaty of Alcanices: Defenitive borders of Portugal

the pope says in the bull: «By this we conced to your excelency and authority, and confirming by apostolic authority the Kingdom of Portugal with integrity honor and the dignity of a Kingdom to whose kings belonges.»

«King Afonso Henriques tries to free from the authority of he's Cousin, king Afonso VII, King of Leon and Castille, to whom he stops serving, and against whom he had to fight with his armies to conquer the political independence; he achieved his intents by the year 1143, by the Treaty of Zamora»

Fighting against... that not only a declaration of independence, but an action of/for independence.

At that time, Leon was more important than Castille. That's Why the title was King of Leon and Castille. Later the Portuguese kings adopted a similar term "king of Portugal and the Algarve", or "King of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarve". Portugal never belonged to Castille. Our relation was allways with Leon.There were many kingdoms with the same king and they were independent from each other. That Happened with Portugal, when we had the same king as Spain in the 16th. And that happens today with Canada or Australia. Or do you think that Australia/Canada are British colonies? If a province from Canada assums independence, it will be from the UK?!

Portugal was part of Leon. We are closely related with Galicia and Leon, not with Castille. It is obvious that Castille was related with Leon, but not with Galicia or Portugal. It's a bit confusing.

In the book also says: "(...) One of this kingdoms - Portugal - borns from the independence and enlargment of the Portucalensis County"

When Portugal declares independence? You only can guess that. When the battle was taking place? When he declares himself as king? That's hard too see, because the church was against the fragmentation of the Christian kingdoms.

There is not any king of unauthorized copyright material in this message. You can use it! Hugs, User:PedroPVZ

Complet map of Portugal
It would be nice to put a complet map of Portugal with Azores, Madeira and the Savage and a reference to Olivença. The people from the islands find this map offensive and they are wright on their intents. They made to put their islands on the Euro banknotes and it also should be in a serious encyclopedia.Pedro 20:33, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Flag Question
Who can help me? I've seen portugal coat of arms. Please explane me: why your coat of arms at flag haven't branches? Is it only technical rison to make ritch coat of arms or are 2 versions of portugal coat of arms: with and without branches. What are the branches and what is the meaning of them?

Darius-poland-viki 22:46, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by branches?? Muriel 09:40, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Muriel, I think he's referring to the flag found here: http://flagspot.net/flags/pt^.html Brooklyn Nellie 11:46, Mar 12, 2004 (UTC)


 * Portuguese coat of arms "is" the real Portuguese flag, the rest changed troughout History. the Portuguese arms didn't. That's why the flag in the article is so horrible and it can not be Portugal's flag. The laurus (when in not in a flag) but in seals, etc is a substitute of the crown. The crown of Saint Mary of Conception, the Queen of Portugal, it was put on the flag to honor her. But republicans tought it was related to monarchs so they substituted with that. The laurus are related to the Roman Emperors (it was their crown).Pedro 01:20, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I forgot to say that, when in the flag, the laurus is also represented, that is a Presidential flag, used by the President of the Portuguese Republic.
 * Sorry, Pedro, by flag+laurus is military, Presidential Flag is similar with the national one, but has only green (without laurus). You can see it in Palácio de Belém.
 * I think you're wright Pedro 23:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Portugal's newest local administration
Has the new law is being applied what do you think about creating a page named Communities and Regions of Portugal or any other name that identifies Regions, Communities and Metropolitan Areas. Please that a look at Metropolitan areas of Portugal were I put some fresh information.Pedro

The Azores is not a dependency
Ignorance has limits. The Azores are not a dependency of Portugal, it is part of Portugal! Pedro 11:14, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * question solved by someone.Pedro 13:11, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * I've uploaded a flag of CPLP that can be used to the "msg:CPLP" in in the articlePedro 23:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * can be seen in here: CPLPPedro 01:03, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * i've discovered and done it myself. Pedro 16:39, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

So what's the first capital of Portugal
I'd like to see some references to Coimbra being the first capital of Portugal (I accept that the first university was in Lisbon)


 * Coimbra the first capital of Portugal?


 * When Portugal was created, the border of Porgutal was from Rio Minho to Rio Douro, the capital was Guimarães. How could be Coimbra?


 * I would like to see some references about that too.


 * http://www.frommers.com/destinations/guimaraes/2670010001.html (by the wa,y typing

portugal "first capital"
 * into google brings up the Wikipedia article first.) Brooklyn Nellie (Nricardo) 19:17, May 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * Sorry Ricardo, but that article is full of non-sence. Henry was French? Independence from Spain??? I'm pretty sure that the 1st King deserves that until today people see him as a Hero and he his still very respected, he's our "king Arthur", there are too many legends sorrounding him. But he was not the real responsable for Portugal's independence.-Pedro 21:34, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

You may want to complete the entry/entries for Portugal in List of historical national capitals (see also Talk:List of historical national capitals. -- User:Docu


 * I see Coimbra as first capital of the independent Portugal (but I can be wrong). The first capital of the county was Oporto (then Portucale or Portus cale - Classical Latin; Portugale - Spoken Latin) that's why the country is called Portugal. But the county lost autonomy, later it regained under the Rule of Henry (father of the 1st King of Portugal). Henry also declared independence of Portugal when Castille and Leon where at war, in that time Guimarães was the capital (of the county). Coimbra was called as capital by King Afonso I when he was King, not Count. The Question is, it was after or before the official independence? I can't find that text. I've a book series of the History of Portugal. And about the former Capital (before Lisbon) nothing is reffered. I'll try to read it better later. Guimarães is known as "Cidade-berço de Portugal" (Birthplace city of Portugal) because the battle of 1128 was in there. Pedro 22:49, 16 May 2004 (UTC)
 * Guimarães only became a city in 1853 (Reign of Queen Maria II).

Motto
Removed from the article:
 * National motto: You are here, you are eating! (The Portuguese take great pride in their hospitality)

Please re-add, in case .. -- User:Docu


 * lol. We have no motto. But that's true, even among ourselfs. I get really stressed sometimes, became I don't want, but people get offended, so I must eat. That's nice to talk on culture section! -- Pedro 22:48, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Bom or Boa?
Does Bom or Boa mean "Good" in Portuguese? The city of Bombay, as we believe, was a corruption of "Good Bay" - Bom bay. Could someone clarify whether it is Bom or Boa? Thanks. Nichalp 20:51, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)


 * both! "Boa" is feminine. "Bom" is masculine. I've heard that also that bom bay means good bay. I've read that in a document. "Boa Baia" should be correct Portuguese because "baia" is feminine, but possibly to simplification (most languages havent masculine and feminine words), people only used the masculine -more common and universal: "Bom baia". The same happened in indonesia's "igreja português" the correct should be "igreja portuguesa" (portuguese church). Português (masculine) portuguesa (feminine). Sometimes when I heard people from East Asia and Timorese (non-native speakers) speaking, they speak the same way. -Pedro 21:56, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Bombay in Portuguese is Bombaím. Baím maybe a curroption of Baía or an ancient word. Is the bay big? or Small? If "baím" means something them "bom" is correct, cause "baim" is masculine and seens to indicate a somewhat small bay. Small bay in Portuguese is "enseada"
 * Pedro - Thanks for the clarification. Nichalp 21:12, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

Exaggeration
Some areas in the article are unneeded (the exaggeration in Soccer, and in all musicians (even less known in Portugal, much less internationally) - Which can be boring if someone just wants the "essential guide to Portugal". I'll move many things to Culture of Portugal, it is the best to do. -Pedro 22:43, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * There are some exaggerations in more essentialareas: " During the 15th and 16th centuries, Portugal eclipsed most other nations in terms of economic, political, and cultural influence" Portugal came in from being a marginal polity to play a role comparable to that of Poland, but not in the league of Spanish economics, Ottoman and Habsburg politics or the cultural effect of the Tuscan Renaissance. This history lacks balance and perspective. Wetman 00:40, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * that cultural and political is mainly in Africa, South America and Asia, If you find that is an exageration plz correct. It is the same today saying that the USA has cultural influence in the World. It has and it hasnt. It depends on the perpective. It should be corrected not to seem to... (i dont know a word for that...) -Pedro 23:35, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)