Talk:Portugal/Archive 3

PORTUGAL TALK ARCHIVE 3 December 2005 - May 2006

Arabic origin of the name Portugal
User 82.155.192.235 wrote: "Another theory is that it comes from "Portucale", which is arabic for Orange, a fruit of which Portugal is famous for." I've removed it and told him: Please do not write stuff you are not sure and just heard somewhere. In Arabic orange is called Portugal (or something similar) because it was the Portuguese who introduced that fruit to the Arabic speaking world, namely due to the large production of the Algarve. The Ogre 18:02, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

article size
Does anyone here think that this article is simply "way too big" (75 kilobytes!). It´s even bigger that the articles about France and Germany. Hereby, I don´t mean that the relative "political" importance should be reflected in the size of the articles but I think that this "main" article is simply too large and should have smaller ! paragraphs who link to "main articles". These should deal much more thouroughly and should be logically much bigger (most aren´t) than the paragraphs in this article about Portugal. Flamarande 20:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Peer review
History of Portugal (1777-1834) is now being peer reviewed. Please, if you want, go there and state your opinion. Thank you. Gameiro 19:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to state that it is now a featured article candidate. You can support or oppose here. Thanks. Gameiro 01:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Portuguese Communist Party
Portuguese Communist Party is now a featured article candidate. Please give your opinion here. If you also want to help improving the article you are welcome. Afonso Silva 23:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

"hip hop tuga"
Please, please!, refrain from using the term "tuga", bearing in mind its connotation! (If you don't know it, do some research, please.) I do suppose we are trying to say "hip hop português" - "Portuguese hip hop" - therefore there is simply no reason to use it, even if a lot of (not very educated, let's be honest) people engage in this fad of using "tuga" as a synonym of "português" ("portuguese"). Cigsandalcohol 09:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

According to the WP:MOS, editors should use formal speech, "tuga" is not even a Portuguese word, so, I agree with Cigsandalcohol.
 * Hip Hop Tuga is the proper name of Portuguese hip hop, due to its differences on influences. Like it or not. And forget the African meaning of Tuga, noone cares. So people who use Tuga are less educated? Are you sure? ...

Google, wikipedia's entry master: Hip Hop Tuga returns 13500 hits Hip Hop Português returns 1150 hits ---Pedro 18:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Foreword: I want to make clear that I'm not really trying to make my point through at any cost, as well as I am willing to accept your reasons... if you present reasons, which I have not yet read. Even I could come up with a couple of them if pressed.

I did not say that Portuguese hip hop did not have its onde characteristics, that was never a point in discussion;

I do not know why you use an argument(?) of the kind of Like it or not.: there again, I did not say Portuguese hip hop wasn't one of its kind, nor did I present my reasoning in terms of my likings;

And forget the African meaning of Tuga: thank you for your advice, but I'll pass it. I don't know in what way will forgetting a piece of knowledge help me. More than that, I don't know how, bearing in mind we are discussing an encyclopedia here, could it be intelligent to forget a piece of knowledge with historical significance;

noone cares: could you clarify, please? Do you own significant statistical results to support that? Because I alone can point people (with credibility) who care, besides myself, of course, and my modest opinion;

''So people who use Tuga are less educated? Are you sure? ... '': No, I am not sure. I was expressing POV - this is a discussion page, meaning I can do it - and what I meant was that people who engage in that fad, as I probably imprudently named it (who knows for how long...?), 1) are in ingorance of the connotation of the word, 2) are lazy to spell only but the adjective that relates to the nation of Portugal (are we paying for characters here...?); 3) we are writing an encyclopedia, not an SMS, not a post on a message board...

Google, wikipedia's entry master: I don't even consider this an argument.

So, should we have Rock Tuga, Metal Tuga, Música Popular Tuga, etc.? --Cigsandalcohol 05:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Cigsandalcohol, people use that word like many African words because of style (many are already in dictionaries), and most people that listen to that kind of music never have been in Africa, and dont care about Africa. Googles said the name of the genre, not me. We should write about reality, I've never heard "Rock Tuga", or something like that. Maybe one or two people use that name as if it is Portugal or Portuguese.
 * Google is one of the best arguements on wikipedia. At least I see people using it over and over again.
 * Hip Hop Tuga is a genre of Hip Hop.
 * Tuga is in the Dictionary and there it states "Portuguese soldier, white race person, portuguese person" (guinean origin, obscure etymology). Good carnival for you ;). Have fun. --Pedro 14:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Hip Hop Tuga? That's absurd! I'm portugues and this is the first time I heard this expression.

Fado
«Lisbon Fado was primarily of popular origins, often performed by women, while Coimbra's had a more literate vein and was often performed by men;»

"Often" is not appropriate. In the past, from what I know, Fado of Coimbra was never perfomed by women. You can prove me the contrary, though. Recently, the performance of Fado of Coimbra adheres to tradition, so it is never perfomed by women either. Cigsandalcohol 09:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * the past is the past, is not today. Coimbra Fado is in fact Student Fado. And there are girls in colleges!! In fact, most students are girls!!! --Pedro 18:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there is a misunderstading. I was referring mainly to the past. However, the first thing you do is to dismiss the past: the past is the past, is not today. What I was trying to say: the sentence gives the impression 1) that Fado of Coimbra might have been performed by women (due to usage of often) and 2) that nowadays it is probably significantly performed by women (due to was performed. I am pretty sure that both scenarios did and do not occur, but I am honestly willing to be proved wrong if that is the case. The fact that Fado de Coimbra is considered the Fado of the students and the fact that there are women studying at the universities does not in any way mean that women actually perform it!

Portal:Portugal opens today
Portal:Portugal is now open to Portuguese wikipedians! Our goals are quite obvious: to improve Portugal-related articles. For that we will try to start a WikiProject:Portugal and a Wikipedia:Portugal collaboration to assist the Portal. I've started the portal with a "Selected article", "Selected picture", "Selected biography", "News from Portugal", "Did you know...", "Categories", "Things you can do" and "Quotes" sections. Feel free to join the portal and state your opinions/suggestion in the portal talk page. Até já. Gameiro 06:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Parag removed from article 24-Mar
I dont think the paragraph below (anon insertion on the 24th Mar) was fit for the article. However someone may want to discuss it rewrite it whatever.--BBird 18:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Also bare in mind that a Portuguese and most peoples of the world are mixed. There is no one look to a Spaniard or Iberian. Any attempts by those to want to try and minimize non-European or African mixing in Iberia or Europe on a whole are just trying to escape already well-known histories of countries such as Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal and so on, as it relates to mixing with Africans and Asians. These peoples(usually wanting to show the world how 'white' they are) want to make excuses for their current appearances that contrast greatly from the European ideal, blond hair and blue eyed model. People must use common sense when discussing peoples of countries who have been the subject of many invasions. Not to mention that Africa is right next door adn North Africa, while lighter than many parts of Africa, is STILL indeed very African.

Portugal's name origin
Huh??? More than once I read that Portugal came from Porto (the city itself) + Cale (currently Vila Nova de Gaia). Never heard about these "mixed origin" of the name.--200.222.3.3 20:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not the author of that sentence but what I understand from it is that the words Portus and Cale have mixed origins. What's wrong about it? Afonso Silva 20:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC) it seems really mixed to me. --Pedro 19:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I am.
 * Porto -> Latin /Roman
 * Cale -> unknown, maybe Ancient Greek, maybe Phoenician, maybe Celtic. If Greek it is from kalle (beautiful), if Celtic it means Celt. The transformation of the C in g, and the name used for a broader area is from the Visigothic time, because of a battle in the city.

Major cleanup

 * The article needs a major cleanup, it is 76 Kb long and full of irrelevant content for a main article. Along with that, some sections are full of the typical boorish provincialism, typical of our country.


 * 2nd, the article is, probably, wikipedia's champion in number of external links, we need to remove 90% of that. Afonso Silva 22:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
This page has been vandalised - I'm not knowledgable enough to tidy it up properly. Could someone with more knowledge please help?

Ancient Portugal
The Conii, influenced by Tartessos, were established in southern Portugal for a long time. Another thing is the Egyptian influence, I've read that there is some Egyptian myths over an Ancient Egyptian migration to the west. But the fact, that the Egyptian gods were venerated in Portugal (which is a proved fact), doesnt mean that they cane here. The Egyptian religion was brought by the phoenicians or even by the Romans. Or did really the Egyptians came to this faar?
 * For what I've read, the Conii were a Phoenician tribe, or influenced by them. BTW, many historians see them as Celtic-influenced. But in any place I've read about that Tartessian influence. Even so, are the Tartessian really important?

The lead is not ok. It should only include civilitations that made an important imprint in the country, mostly by invasion, and not everything. What's next? Ukraianian and Russian civilization? And Egypt should be changed to Ancient Egypt - these are two different things (if there really was a migration of Ancient Egyptians to Portugal). I would love to know about that, seems great! --Pedro 19:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Motto
I have removed the national motto "he who dares wins", since I could find no corroboration for it, and in any case it seems fishy that only the English version is given.

Also, the Portugese Wikipedia has "Lema: não tem" which as far as I can tell translates as "Motto: none". --Saforrest 20:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the motto is a recurrent vandalism target. There was a time when the motto "For the good of the nation" was being included almost daily. "He who dares, wins" is also someone's creativity showing up. There's is no state motto. Good work! Afonso Silva 21:08, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * And who put a Motto saying "Esta é a minha ditosa Pátria"? This is a sonnet from Camões's.

ACAmposPinho 23:32, 3 June 2006

Independence date
Should not be 1640, instead of 1128?--Menah the Great 12:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it shouldn't. Should the independence of France be 1945? I don't think so. Portugal was already independent in the 12th century. Afonso Silva 14:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * User Afonso Silva is right - No, it shouldn't! Portugal never lost its formal independence during the Hasbsburg rule in the period some call the Iberian Union. It was a personal union of the crowns. The Ogre 14:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, OK, OK! I'm confused because 1640 page and other says, literally, "December 1 - Portugal regains its independence from Spain and João IV of Portugal becomes king. Spain does not recognize the Independence until 1668". Perhaps somebody should replaced "does not recognize the Independence" for "does not recognized Joăo IV as king".--Menah the Great 15:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Tables of the demography section
I don't find the tables appropriate to the main article as it has already 72Kb and they are not crucial to the main page, of course they would be great in the demographics of Portugal article. Along with that, the table which ranks the municipalities misses some top 20 municipalities, as we may find in Image:Portuguese municipalities population1.PNG, such as Santa Maria da Feira and Famalicão. I think they should be removed. Afonso Silva 17:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree with you. I am new here but I think the article about Portugal is too large and have many useless photos and paragraphs. I just was building the populations table and decided put it in both the Demographics of Portugal article and demographics section of Portugal article for people can see it and say. (P.S.- V. N. de Famalicão is already there, Santa Maria da Feira is the next I will add.) Page Up 18:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Size of the article
I started removing several sentences from the majority of the sections, not because I dislike them, but just because the article is quite large, the majority of the country articles, and mainly, the featured ones have about 40Kb, this one needs to be shrunk by about 30Kb, it's a hard task. Afonso Silva 13:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Link
I'd like to know how do I do to add this photo link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vitor107/sets/ on Portugal' article. I am sure that this link is very pertinent. Thank you.Vitor107 19:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Your link was removed according to WP:EL, adding blogs or your own personal pages to the external links section of an article is considered inappropriate, along with that, your photo sets, albeit interesting, have a minor importance in an article like this. Cheers! Afonso Silva 19:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I hope I can explain myself in Portuguese: caro utilizador Afonso Silva, pelo que li parece que, embora os sites pessoais não devam ser aceites, se ele for informativo e relevante deve ser considerada a sua inclusão. Ora, neste caso: 1º- trata-se de um site que neste momento possui mais de 2250 fotografias de Portugal (e todos os dias eu acrescento novas imagens, pois tenho ainda milhares delas por colocar); as fotografias abrangem todo o território nacional - o Norte, o Centro, o Sul, Os Açores e a Madeira; a maior parte das fotografias possui informação adicional; as fotografias estão rigorosamente agrupadas tendo em conta a divisão administrativa de Portugal em concelhos (e mais de dois terços dos mesmos já se encontram representados); as fotografias têm todas uma qualidade artística minimamente aceitável; todas a fotografias disponibilizam imagens de alta resolução. Por estes motivos penso que qualquer utilizador da Wikipedia que procure informações sobre Portugal, ficará agradado em encontrar tamanha colecção de imagens, pois esta possibilitará um maior conhecimento sobre o que é Portugal. Agradeço que tenha em consideração estes argumento e reconsidere a sua decisão. Muito obrigado.Vitor107 21:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Viva Vitor! Tenho reparado nas suas contribuições, e não removi nenhum dos seus links das múltiplas páginas acerca de municípios em que os incluiu, apesar de achar que não é correcto usar a wikipedia como meio de promoção do trabalho próprio, nem os vou tentar remover, pelo contrário. De facto, os seus trabalhos têm muito boa qualidade, a questão é que a inclusão de uma página como a sua nos links da página principal legitimará a colocação do link de qualquer página de compilação de fotografia ou outra forma de informação, isso não acontece nos melhores artigos sobre países na wikipedia. Eu convido o Vitor a fazer upload dos seus trabalhos para os Commons, aplicando a etiqueta de trabalho criado por si, e criando nas páginas dos diversos municípios uma secção "Gallery" one poderá incluir os seus trabalhos, contribuindo para melhorar a wikipedia. Afonso Silva 21:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Obrigado pela sua resposta e pelo comentário. Não escondo que o que me move é também um pouco a "promoção do trabalho próprio" (sim, tenho orgulho naquela colecção de imagens, não pela qualidade das mesmas mas pela dimensão e diversidade dela), mas é principalmente o desejo de, à minha medida, divulgar Portugal pelo mundo e entre os próprios portugueses. E continuo a achar que a divulgação da minha página no artigo sobre Portugal seria útil nesse sentido, embora compreenda a sua intenção de não abrir precedentes. De qualquer maneira não perderei a esperança numa mudança de posição da vossa parte. Um sincero abraço.Vitor107 23:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Vitor, eu não mando no artigo de maneira nenhuma, você tem, tal como eu, o direito de o alterar e deve fazê-lo (WP:BOLD), no entanto acho que devemos seguir as orientação traçadas pela comunidade, WP:EL é uma delas. Continuo a dizer que a Wikipedia ganharia muito em ter as suas imagens, não como links mas incluídas nos artigos. E quem diz imagens, diz qualquer outro tipo de contribuições que o Vitor pode fazer, pessoalmente acho que faltam utilizadores interessados em assuntos relacionados com Portugal. Afonso Silva 00:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Religion
Though the "Festivals and holidays" section mentions several holidays of religious origin, there is no discussion in the article of religion in general, including but not limited to the prevalence of Catholicism. The article should give a brief, evenhanded evaluation of the current religous trends in the country, possibly with a link to the more detailed information contained in the Demographics of Portugal article. I politely request that someone with more detailed knowledge on the topic provide this information. Thank you.

''The great majority of the Portuguese population is a member of the Roman Catholic Church. Religious minorities include a little over 300,000 Protestants. There are also about 50,000 Muslims and 10,000 Hindus (most of whom came from Goa, a former Portuguese colony). There are also about 1,000 Jews. Atheists and agnostics are increasing in number.'' - This paragraph is on the Demographics section. Is this what you want? Please say something, I also think the article is quite bad, but alone I can't do much. Thanks! Afonso Silva 20:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)