Talk:Portugal/Archive 4

Discussion about the independence date in infobox
The info-box does not have to inform wrongly that the Portuguese republic established on October 5th, 1910 (do not...) became independent from a disappeared Kingdom more than 700 years ago...

A info-box da República Portuguesa não devia informar erradamente que a mesma se tornou independente de um reino que não existe à mais de 700 anos...

La info-box ne doit pas informer faussement que la république portugaise fondé le 5 octobre 1910 est devenu indépendante de un royaume disparu il y a plus de 700 ans... José Manuel CH--GE 14:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Portugal is an independent country since the 12th century. That's what the box field is for. If the former rulers of the territory still exist or not is irrelevant. Afonso Silva 15:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The info-box does not have to inform wrongly that the Portuguese republic established on October 4th, 1910 (do not... ) became independent from a disappeared Kingdom more than 700 years ago...

'':Portugal is an independent country since the 12th century. That's what the box field is for. If the former rulers of the territory still exist or not is irrelevant. Afonso Silva 15:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)''

Lamento mas desacordo com o Senhor peço que seja votado pela comunidade. A sua resposta e justificação não é convincente, para mim é arbitrária. Portugal já existia antes de ser condado Portucalense era um Reino Suevo fundado em (400 + -) chamava-se Portu-Cal… que se estendia até o Rio-Tejo com capital em Braga (Cidade que existe sempre, e populações igualmente) que reapareceu com o nome de Condado Porucalense. Para si isto não é relevante mas para o leitor apressado da Info-Box só fica a compreender que a republica portuguesa se tornou um dia independente, e isto é deveras enganador... Cumprimentos. E não tenho paciência para mais. José Manuel CH--GE 15:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Na Wikipedia as coisas não são votadas pela comunidade, não é assim que funciona, os factos existem e são apresentados e sustentados por referências externas. É certo que Portugal já existia antes de 1143, daí que o campo "formation" indique a data de 868. O rei Afonso VII de Castela reconheceu a independência do país em 1143, é para isso que serve o campo "indepencence". Pode haver discussão em torno de datas como 1143, mas como é evidente 1910 não faz sentido nenhum como a data da independência.


 * In Wikipedia we don't vote such things, it doesn't work that way, facts are presented and referenced. It is true that Portugal existed before 1143, therefore, the "formation" field indicates the year of 868. The King Afonso VII of Castille recognized Portugal as an independent country in 1143 and that's what the field "independence" says. We may discuss the accuracy of 1143, but obviously, considering 1910 as the independence year makes just no sense. Afonso Silva 15:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Portugal was formed in 868 by Vímara Peres. Afonso I of Portugal was aclaimed king in July 26 1139, after the Battle of Ourique (even if it was de facto independet since the Battle of São Mamede in June 24 1128). This was recognized by 1143 by the Kingdom of Leon (Alfonso VII of León and Castile) and in 1179 by the Holy See (Pope Alexander III). The Ogre 16:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course. José Manuel insists in changing it to the 1910 thing. Afonso Silva 16:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Épá! Vou mudar mesmo e não é o erro que lá está agora - estamos na 3ª República... The Ogre 16:15, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Já agora: a data deve ser a da auto-definição (sustentada de facto) e não a data em que os leoneses/castelhanos (ou o papado) reconheceu a coisa! The Ogre 16:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Antes tinha 3 campos, formação, independência e reconhecimento. Afonso Silva 16:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Podes restaurá-los... (desculpa ando preguiçoso!) The Ogre 16:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Bom trabalho! The Ogre 16:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The Portuguese republic info-box=intox...
The info-box does not have to inform wrongly that the Portuguese republic established on October 5th, 1910 (do not... ) became independent from a disappeared Kingdom more than 700 years ago... Pois é não me compreendeu... o que eu pretendia é que a data fosse recuada para as suas origens... seja o que explicitei... o que resta de Portu-Cal foi criado pelo Reino Suevo em (400+ -) (e isto não se atreve a contestar...) e se já consegui que fosse eliminada a falsa ideia que nos emancipamos um dia dos espanhóis, já fico meio contente, mas não vou parar... até que a verdade seja ensinada. Deste reino Suevo os amigos dos espanhóis e dos franceses nem querem ouvir falar... e historiadores tendenciosos há muitos. É intelectualmente desonesto de persistir em afirmar que a república portuguesa se tornou independente dum certo reino... pois é da república portuguesa que trata a info-box... Mas o pior (ou ainda bem ?) é que as outras Wikipédias vos copiam come fossem Deuses... e eu sou Budista... José Manuel CH--GE 19:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

José Manuel, uma política fundamental na Wikipedia é esta: No original research, aconselho-o a lê-la, juntamente com as páginas sobre Verifiability e What Wikipedia is not. O artigo não trata a República Portuguesa como regime, mas sim como país, como se adivinha facilmente pela secção de história. Fico contente por ver mais um Português a editar, mas se quer adicionar conteúdo, e particularmente conteúdo que contradiz o conteúdo presente nos artigos, apresente as suas referências. Afonso Silva 19:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me my 'good Masters' what is the problem with those links?
(The Portuguese Language - an Ocean of Cultures ) (Côa Valley Archaeological Park ) (World Heritage Sites in Portugal ) José Manuel CH--GE 22:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with those links is that we should restrict EL in the page to the minimum possible, if we start accepting every directory, like the one about UNESCO sites (which is not up to date, by the way) we will be spammed by every guy who owns similar websites. Websites of public institutions should be linked in the proper sub-articles, for example, the Camões Institute one should be linked in Portuguese language, and the Côa Valley in Vila Nova de Foz Côa. Otherwise we will have a list with 100 sites that share characteristics with those, like we had until 2 months ago. And by the way, don't create your own captions, use the website's title. Afonso Silva 23:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

E EU FASSO TUAS AS MINHAS PALAVRAS

The problem with those links is that we should restrict EL (...) + don't create your own captions, use the website's title
The name: The Portuguese Language - an Ocean of Cultures  is not my creation... is from the second page of the same website; http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/oceanoculturas/eng/index.html ''' (second page) http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/english.html (first page)

Sorry I do not believe in your “EL” (Hell?) Best regards, José Manuel CH--GE 13:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

External links is a policy page of Wikipedia. Believing in it (whatever that is) or not, it is the policy. And, please, sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ ). Cheers! Afonso Silva 14:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Reino de Portu-Cale
Please read here this article about the: Os suevos já não têm concorrentes. Durante mais de uma centúria sustenta-se o seu reino na parte noroeste da Península. Alarga-se até o Tejo com a capital em Braga (já sede de um bispado desde Diocleciano) e chama-se Reino de Portu-Cale - do nome de dois castros fronteiros nas margens do Douro. Best regards--José Manuel CH--GE 12:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronto, mais uma vez fica provado que Portugal não foi fundado em 1910, ou seja, as suas alterações, como esta, não têm sentido. Afonso Silva 13:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Non-standard and potentially POV map should be reverted
The map for this country has recently been changed to a format which is not standard for Wikipedia. Each and every other country identifies that country alone on a contintental or global map; none of them highlight other members of relevant regional blocs or other states which which that country has political or constitutional links. The EU is no different in this respect unless and until it becomes a formal state and replaces all other states which are presently members; the progress and constitutional status of the EU can be properly debated and identified on the page for that organisation; to include other members of the EU on the infobox map for this country is both non-standard and potentially POV.

Please support me in maitaining Portugal's proper map (in Wikipedia standard) until we here have debated and agreed this issue? Who is for changing the map and who against? The onus is on those who would seek to digress from Wiki standard to show why a non-standard and potentially POV map should be used. Portugal deserves no less! JamesAVD 15:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This user has decided to remove references to the EU from the page of every member state. See his talk page for more details. yandman 15:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The users above are misrepresnting my actions. Certain non-standard items have been included in the infoboxes of the pages of some European states. I have removed the undiscussed and unsupported changes and started a discussion here on the best way forward. I have in no way 'removed references to the EU'! The EU is an important part of the activities of the governmenance of many European states, to the benefit of all. That does not mean that an encyclopedia should go around presenting potentially POV information of the constitutional status of the EU in the infoboxes of states which are supposed to be standardised across Wikipedia. I'm interested in what users here feel? Please feel free to comment at any of the various pages Yandman might suggest. JamesAVD 15:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Portugal has 878 years of age.

Portugal is the country oldest of the World (in accordance with the delimitations of borders).

Portugal initiated the Discoveries in 1400 (he was the first one and the only one to have during 200

years the World in its power, no country until today surpassed these 200 years).

Portugal was a World power during centuries XV and XVI.

Portugal nowadays continues to be a World power but he is asleep because when to wake up the great

country of the North America goes to pass of world-wide power to a regional power.
 * we're just waiting for d. sebastião finally comes from the mist <3 and anyway i think that it should include açores and madeira..

PLEASE DISCUSS THIS AT Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries as it involves more than just this country.

Thanks, &mdash;MJCdetroit 20:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

"To be Portuguese is to be Catholic"
A recent edit changed:

"Portuguese society is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. Approximately 90,8% of the population consider themselves Roman Catholic, the highest percentage in Western Europe, but only about one-third attend mass and take the sacraments regularly."

into:

"Portuguese society is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic. According to a common saying, 'To be Portuguese is to be Catholic.' Approximately 97% of the population consider themselves Roman Catholic, the highest percentage in Western Europe, but only about one-third attend mass and take the sacraments regularly."

Not only does the edit seem to introduce a bias which was previously absent, but I have never heard this supposedly "popular" saying in my life. Source, please! FilipeS 17:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Census 2001 revealed "only" 84% Catholics, today is probably less...
 * I agree with you, FilipeS. This needs changing. Be bold! Do it! The Ogre 00:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Intro
"Portugal has witnessed a constant flow of civilizations during the past 3,100 years, including Greek, Roman, Germanic, Moorish and others, who made an imprint on the country's culture, history, language, and ethnic composition. During the 15th and 16th centuries, with its vast transcontinental empire, Portugal was one of the world's major economic, political, and cultural powers. Now, Portugal is a developed country, a member of the European Union since 1986, and a founding member of NATO and Eurozone." This sounds overly boastful. Can we be a little more self-restrained? FilipeS 21:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

if we see well, it's not boasted untill he says that portugal is a developed country right now. i certainly don't think that. the rest is quite true

I don't see how it is boastful, unless you have a personal problem with it for some reason. It happens to be the truth (I don't know about the Germanic part though, new studies are claiming they were actually Slavic, but whatever) and it is in fact showing restraint. If you saw my genealogical tree it would rock your socks off my friend. Lusitano Transmontano 05:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

How many judges are in Portuguese Constitutional Court?
This article describes "A nine-member constitutional court oversees the constitutionality of legislation." in the last sentence of #2 "goverment and policts". But another article about Portuguese Constitutional Court describes thirteen judges in the court. which number is right?? 2SteamClocks 14:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The Constitution of the Portuguese Republic states according to its Article 222: "1. The Constitutional Court shall be composed of 13 judges, 10 of whom shall be appointed by the Assembly of the Republic; the remaining 3 shall be co-opted." Cigsandalcohol 07:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Corruption
"Portugal is one of the least corrupt countries, according to Transparency International" reads the caption to the graphic under International rankings. Does a ranking of 6-6.9 merit being called "one of the least corrupt"? It would seem to be closer to the median than it is to the maximum. Cleduc 00:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I feel so when I read it... maybe need to correct a little.2SteamClocks 13:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * However, if we take into account that the survey encompasses 163 countries, it means that Portugal ranks in the top 16%. Cigsandalcohol 07:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Reference to Satanism
I deleted a line from the Religion section, "One curious fact is that Satanism is growing." At the very least this requires a citation. The Wiki entry on "Satanism" describes definable organizations (citing individuals who call themselves Satanists) but gives no demographic statistics. My sense is that besides a citation, the line would need a meaningful definition of "Satanism" in the first place. I'm starting to notice items that seem too innocuous to be called vandalism, but which are dificult for me to explain otherwise. Should we grep in all national entries for references to "satanism" to detect a difuse propoganda scheme? Peter H. St.John, M.S. 03:09, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Mirandese nationality
The Mirandese people the people speak a different languague to the portuguese people. The mirandese people have all the characteristic of a nationality, land, history and languague. In the Republic of Portugal there are two different nationalities, the Portuguese and the Mirandese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.60.183.104 (talk • contribs)
 * Well, there a people in Madeira an Açores than doens´t feel portugueses, but they don´t have a different languague. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.60.183.104 (talk) 21:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

This is a complete and total fabrication! There are no feelings of ethnic differentiation in Miranda! I dont even think this unregistered editor should be taken seriously. Or else he is an anonimous vandal. Even if he is from Miranda do Douro, which I doubt, he is probably the only one that thinks the Mirandese are a different nationality or ethnic group. His edits are infatile and he doesn't understand that an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is! His matter of fact statements, unsupported by any source, show he has no understanding of the social and cultural processes envolved in ethnico-political differentiation. His edits should be treated as vandalism. If he has a case for his statements he should bring it forward in the talk pages before writing such delusions on the multiple articles where he has been adding them. The Ogre 00:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, people in Madeira and the Azores do feel Portuguese, they just know the obvious - they are not from Lisbon. And some of them do have a political-budgetary conflict with the central state, but not with their Portuguese identity or even the integraty of the national state.The Ogre 00:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, why doesn't User:83.60.183.104 register? That seems to me as a desire of t escape proper wikipedia discussion procedures and accountability. The Ogre 00:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course we are not a different race, we are white like the most of the people of Pertual but he mirandese have the characteristic of a nationality like Catalonia in Espanha. We have our costumes, we have our languague, this is true and we are working to recover the national identity of the Mirandese. Wikipedia must be neutral and recognize that there are two different nationality in the Republic of Portugal, Portuguese and Mirandese. Miranfree 14:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Where did you find such nonsense? It certainly wasn't in a reference encyclopedia, history book, or the Portuguese law. Provide your (reliable) sources, please. Page Up 16:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The mirandes people is different to the portuguese: A source: Ethnologue. Language (Mirandese people) use Official regional language. A folklore group is promoting the language and culture. The language has been introduced into the schools. It is sometimes used in court. Comments The people have a different style of dress from their neighbors (black, handwoven cloth). Agriculturalists: wheat, potatoes, oil; wine producers; animal husbandry: sheep, cattle; commerce. Miranfree 17:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Miranfree, I think what you have called "nationality" could be best described as "culture". It is certainly true that the region of Miranda has a language and a culture of its own (though the Mirandese also speak Portuguese; they are bilingual). However, the same is true, if perhaps to a somewhat lesser extent, of other regions of Portugal, like the Azores or Minho. There is certainly no officially recognized "nationality" for Miranda or the Mirandese, the way there is, for instance, for the automonous communities of Spain. In fact, the Portuguese Constitution explicitly prohibits regional parties. Regards. FilipeS 23:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Miranfree, I see you have registered. Good. It means, I suppose, that you are serious in your purposes, and not a mere vandal. Now... regarding your opinion that the inhabitants of Miranda do Douro are a different nationality or ethnic group from the rest of the Portuguese, I have two types of comment:
 * Methodological, regarding what an encyclopedia should be. Methodologicaly, yours is not a correct approach to writing in an encyclopedia. You see, when there is no consensus, and respecting the NPOV rule of wikipedia (see: Neutral point of view), "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being the truth, and all significant published points of view are to be presented, not just the most popular one" and this must be done "representing fairly and without bias all significant views that have been published by a reliable source". You have not done so. Furthermore, and I do know the literature and reality about national identity in Portugal (namely sociological, antropological and historical), I have no knowledge of any source presenting the Mirandese as a different ethnic group or nationality. So... you look like an isolated individual defending something nobody else says, namely the Mirandese. You just blumtly state that the Mirandese are a different nationality because they speak a different language (and what does "speak" mean? check these statistics) - this, as I shall elaborat in the next paragraph, is invalid, but, even more important given the fact that you are the only source for such a statement, is not sufficient for an encyclopedia! Imagine I decided to write in the article about God, that God exists because I believe in it (or maybe evem some more people...). Then someone would decide to blank me and write that God does not exist because he or she does not believe in it! That is why the article must present all reliably sourced points of view, stating that these people think this and those people think that. Do you understand? I reppeat, an encyclopedia is not about what the world is but about what people say (and discuss) the world is!
 * Substantive, regarding the de facto statements you present about the Mirandese. Substantively, your statements, besides unsourced, are basic (therefore rapidly refutable) and just plain wrong. Do understand me. I have nothing against the Mirandese and, personally, I don't give a dam if their are to be a different national or ethnic group or not! If that's what they whant to be - fine by me! But the fact is that I have never read that statement anywhere, there are no political movements or organizations deffending that position and I strongly believe that if you ask the Mirandese if they are Portuguese or not, they'll say they are Portuguese - they are Portuguese from Miranda, with particular cultural traits, traditions and linguistic heritage. Even the official site of the Câmara Municipal is in Portuguese, not Mirandese, the whole history section clearly states the integration of Miranda in Portuguese history, society and culture, and there is only a very small reference to the Mirandese language. Even a site as the one about Mirandese language by the Linguistics Center of the Classical Univerty of Lisbon (Sítio de I Mirandés), that clearly means to deffend the language and the cultural traditions of Miranda, never presents the Mirandese as a different ethnic or national group. Of course the Mirandese have"a language and a culture of its own", as FilipeS said, so do many other inhabitants of other regions of Portugal (if I say "Ú grade azoigou e foi átupir na manta das tanerifas" do you understand me? Well it's a phrase in the variety of the Portuguese language spoken in Madeira, albeit very archaic; in fact only in the Madeira and the Azores have ever had separatist movements, and their reasoning, mind you, was never one of cultural differentiation, but of geographical differentiation and political antipaty to the left-wing predominace in continental Portugal during the revolucionary process - do you, by any chance, know the literature about this?). That does not make them an ethnic group or a nationality (as you can see in the respective articles, these are not simple problematics...) - there are many nations that have internal ethnic and linguistic differentation, on the other hand there are different nations that share ethnic, cultural and linguitic heritage. And you even mention Race! By Endovelicus! Do you even know what you are talking about? Even if I could accept, and I can not, the implicits in your statement about Whites and Blacks (even in Talk:Mirandese language), that is to say, the simplist way in which you speak about such complex concepts, let me tell you that there are also nations that have internal racial differentiation and different nations that have the same racial make up!
 * Concluding... my friend, and I shall assume that you are not ill intended, the Mirandese are not a different ethnicity or nationality. And by the way, I'm not a "salazarianism", as you accused me in my talk page (what you wrote is close to bashing - see No personal attacks - and propaganda - your name, Miranfree, is already a political demand: "We speak a different language, we have our costumes, we are a different nationality. Stop to the portugueses salazarianism. Respect to the mirandese nationality."). Please stop your unfounded statements and edits. Thank you. The Ogre 02:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TheOgre, but I would remind everyone that nation is also a problematic word. In Portugal, it's normally used as a synonym of state, but in many multicultural/multiethnic countries, such as Spain or the United States, "nation" is used in a more ethnic sense. FilipeS 12:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That´s the idea. The state of the Republic of Pertual is not a homogenic countrie. There are two cultures, two comunities, two nationalities: the portuguese and the mirandese with two diferent languague. This article show recognise this diversity. This is the democratic idea, respect the minorities and is to much traditional betwen the portuguese don´t respect the mirandese minority.Miranfree 13:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Problems and suggestions:
 * "Nation" is a problematic word in a Portuguese context. We don't really use it, as I've noted.
 * If you're going to mention Miranda's ethnic specificities in an article on Portugal, then you'd have to do the same for the specificities of the Azores, Madeira, Galicia, Minho and Trás-os-Montes, Algarve, and so on. Come to think of it, there is also an article for Terra de Miranda — why not expand it, and discuss Mirandese culture there? There could be a link to it in the main article on Portugal. FilipeS 13:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OMG. This is why wikipedia has serious issues being accepted, it is full of lunatics. 500 farmers spread in different villages don't make a nation, and even if they see they speak a language, they also feel their village language is different from other village language. Portugal has diverse peoples, it always had, but not nationalities. I don't know why you loose time with these people. I had my time with one of these lunatics. Even Chinese is much more spoken in Portugal than Mirandese. Miranfree procura um psiquiatra. E, quanto aos restantes não percam tempo com estas barbaridades, pois não tem fundamento nenhum estar a discutir fantasias pessoais. Só ajudam o moço a ficar mais louco que o que já é. --Pedro 15:04, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Filipes, you argue with good manners. I know that "nation" is problematic in the portuguese languague now, but this is because in the Portuguese Republic there is a tradition o repression to the minorities. Was a reality the punishment to the boys that talk in Mirandès in the school and thats because a lot of people lost his languague. The portuguese people should accept that there is a minority that have his own costumes and his own languague and is different, the republic is not a state-nation, is a state multicultural. Is Portugal and Pertual. What´s wrong with this? Is the portuguese don´t like the mirandese people, be clear. we don´t want more repression to our people, thi is the Europe of the XXI century.Miranfree 15:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * From Schizophrenia: Schizophrenia (from the Greek word σχιζοφρένεια, "split mind") is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental disorder characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality and by significant social or occupational dysfunction. A person experiencing schizophrenia is typically characterized as demonstrating disorganized thinking, and as experiencing delusions or hallucinations. main article: Schizophrenia --Pedro 15:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pedro não digas asneiras. Miranfree 15:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Pedro, you need to reread Wikipedia:Wikiquette.
 * Miranfree, I regret that Mirandese was repressed in the past, but that was not done by any Portuguese Republic. It was done by an authoritarian regime which has since been overthrown. Now, we live in a democracy, which has officially recognized Mirandese as an independent language. Please note that this is more than the Astur-Leonese languages on the other side of the border ever got.
 * I think it's great that there are more Mirandese in Wikipedia, and look forward to your contributions. The articles on Terra de Miranda, Miranda do Douro and Mirandese language are still a little lacking, and it would be great if you could help to improve them. I see no problem with adding, for example, a list of links to the Portugal article, or, perhaps better, to the article on the Demographics of Portugal, pointing to each of the regional cultures in our country. I just think it can't be limited to Mirandese culture versus "Portuguese" culture. There are many other regional traditions in Portugal. FilipeS 15:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Filipe Miranfree 16:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If pedro needs Wikiquette then I need many doses of it. I regret getting harsh when I do and I don't mean to offend anyone, but unfortunately diplomacy has its limits and sometimes raging like a banshee feels like what is called for. The things Pedro said are not a big deal and Pedro also made some darn good points. Pedro is right! - Lusitano Transmontano 06:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 1st. A rule of wikipedia is assuming good faith, and obviously he is not assuming good faith, he is trying to make in Portugal what occurred in Spain during the Franco regime.
 * 2nd Filipe is no one to teach me the rules of wikipedia.
 * 3rd Miranfree is not Portuguese, nor Mirandese, nor from Madeira (which he also claimed he was), he is just playing with your lack of intelligence. Everyone in Madeira and Miranda do Douro feel Portuguese and belonging to the Portuguese nation (obviously).
 * 4rd, What he told of Mirandese is in fact what happened with Galicians, Catalans and the Basque (Being beaten in school just for speaking their languages). That did not occur in Portugal. Besides no one in the city of Miranda speaks Mirandese only a few elderly in a couple of villages speaks Mirandese. Only one of those villages is almost fully Mirandese.
 * 5th Filipe showed great ignorance about his own country (and Spain). There's no Mirandese identity besides the local (town or Parochial) identity which is common throughout Northern Portugal. Portugal is a nation-state, even if it has rich local cultures. in fact, it is because of these local cultures, and the lack of regional identities which makes Portugal a nation-state. I recommend Filipe a visit to Miranda do Douro, it will make him good. --Pedro 23:56, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Information about the Terra de Miranda and the culture of the Mirandese People. We are more than a few elderly in couple of villages.

Miranfree 10:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Map of the Terra de Miranda
 * Mirandes na net. Lhengua i Cultura Mirandesa
 * Ethnologue report for Miranda do Douro (Mirandese) English.
 * We? I'm not Filipe!!! I'm not that dumb, you're Spanish! And BTW learn proper Portuguese. I hope you use that link to learn something about that area of the country. And treat you problem with Omega 3, as I advised you earlier.--Pedro 12:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You always answer my arguments with insults because you know that what I say is true and you don´t like the reality. I show sourcex that demonstrate  the differentiated culture of the mirandese people. I don´t care if for you and other portuguese like you we are only a few old ones, we are the sufficients and we are not all old ones. We are not castilian, we are not chinise inmigrant, we are here since always. I am proud of not saying a good Portuguese, mine mirandese is much better. Miranfree 17:06, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I want to say that I don´t hate Portugal or the portuguese people I respect Portugal. Is only that we suffer in the past a lot of time the action of people of Estado Novo that want the dream of a homogenic country and because that hate the the mirandese minority and I see that there are still people that have the dream os this Portugal the state-nation of only-one-culture-with-only-one-languague and is not true. You can see the discussion in the portuguese wikipedia with authentic censure. If you say respestuosly that you feel different, you are sure a spanish spy (Pedro say). We exist and we have a different culture and languague [http://www.mirandes.net/ Mirandes na net. Lhengua i Cultura Mirandesa], a athentic different nationality in the Republica Portuguesa. What´s wrong with that? Miranfree 17:19, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are no issues in relation to Mirandese language, because there are very few speakers. I know 100% sure that you are not Mirandese nor Portuguese, next time don't leave so many tracks on the net! The Internet is not really anonymous. There are no problems with some peasants speaking another language, Portugal is not Spain and it doesn't have Spain's problems, Mirandese don't feel different to the rest - that's in your fantasy world - Schizophrenia -, that is very away from reality, so I consider you thinking in your mental status) and the rest of the Portuguese don't feel anything in relation to a language that most of them don't know that exists. You're not a Spanish Spy, you're a person with mental problems, just that, as other people found (|see it here), as you did the same mess in the Portuguese and Spanish wikipedias. I just advise you to eat that fish or supplements of omega 3 it can correct some of those problems. Don't take my advice as an insult, because this is a very good medical advice, read that article to know more. Maybe if there were... say... 1 million Mirandese speakers things would be different. For 7 euros you can find those supplements on supermarkets. --Pedro 23:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

There's no such thing as a Mirandese nationality. I used to live close to Miranda do Douro and people around there are Portuguese just like everyone else in northeastern Portugal. Rather pointless to fabricate this so-called Mirandese nationality. Wikipedia is not a soapbox.-- Hús  ö  nd  23:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Portugal and slavery
I thougt it was strange that no mention was made about the gigantic role Portugal played in the transatlantic slave trade, one of, if not the greatest crime against humanity. Portugal was one of the first nations to establish the transatlantic slave trade, it remained one of the biggest slave trading nations. The former portuguese colony Brazil's huge black population is a testimony to that. Portugal was also exporting slaves to the colonies of other European nations. Having said that, Portugal was the last nation to abolish the trade of slaves across the Atlantic, defying the British navy. The abolition of slavery in Brazil only came with that countries independence from Portugal in the late 19th century. Forced labour was maintained in Portuguese colonies in Africa until the late 1980s when those countries became independent. Ironically, Portugal has very little to show for this horrendous exploitation of humans and nations and the amassing of wealth it must have entailed. It is now one of the poorest members of the European Union. Before the accession of new former communist states, it was constantly the second poorest country after Greece among the pre-2004 15 member states since it's entry into the Union. Even now, some former communist countries like Slovenia have a higher GDP/Capita than Portugal. Portugal is a net-recipient member of the EU, i.e. it receives more aid than it contributes in terms of membership fees. Where has all the colonial wealth gone? Wasted in colonial wars? Corruption? Stashed in off-shore or alpin accounts somewhere? It would be an interesting project to trace the money and blood trail after the glorious "Portuguese Empire". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.212.253 (talk • contribs)
 * Portuguese colonies became independent in 1974/75, not the 1980s. But you are globaly right, even if your tone is quite accusatory, and not the neutral one one expects in an encyclopedia... The Ogre 17:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

We're waiting until England, France, Germany, the United States of America and a few other nations add a note about their gigantic roles in slavery to their Wikipedia articles. FilipeS 17:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Why are you waiting? Portugal always hast to be the last in line? Not when it came to "discover" new lands right? I don't know why you mentioned Germany as a slave trading nation...I mean they really didn't do much there. No their historical shame

is a ehmm a little more recent, but no less horrible.


 * FilipeS, of course you are right, but you forgot Spain, the African slave traders from Africa, and even the Arabic or Turkish slave traders. You are a Povish guy! It's unfair. :) Page Up 18:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's impossible to even name all the nations or ethnicities that were ever invoved with the slave trade. ;-) Also, I think that's a topic more appropriate for the articles about the history of each nation, or for specific articles like Transatlantic slave trade (where Portugal is indeed mentioned). FilipeS 18:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you are right, but I was specifically commenting on why Portugal's gigantic role in the transatlantic slave trade was left out of the "History" section of Portugal.


 * You do know Slave trading has been around for ever and still is!!!!! Why don't you go and complain about the slave trading going on in Asia right now, or do you just like living in the past!! You obviously have a clear bias, now show us on the doll where that bad Portuguese man hurt you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.97.93.179 (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I found a doll, called it the "portuguese man" and stuffed a sardine up it's ass:)


 * Portugal still has a lot of gold, it has one of the world's biggest gold reserves, but it can not sell it, it would make gold prices to fall. A lot of the colonies gold were sent to England as taxes. Another share was used to make monuments.
 * GDP per capita isn't everything, even in terms of quality of life, and Portuguese GDP/capita did no grow as much, because it gained more population than expected in 2004 (it is the 8th EU nation with more new immigrants, also new states entered the European Union, and Portugal strongly supported it, even it everyone knew it would create problems to it. I don't know if it still is a net-recipient. besides, Portugal has a gigantic problem: politicians.
 * Slavery and contacts with other peoples made the Portuguese very open to other cultures, we can not say the same in respect to other European countries or North America. Besides Portugal still has important role in Africa, because there are numerous bonds with the African peoples and many friendship stories and if I go to some of those countries at work I'll dine in the minister's home with his family, to the Portuguese was no shame to intermarriage with Africans and Asians, quite the opposite, can we say the same about other countries? Portugal has a sizeable history because it is a nation with one thousand years of independent history, there is a lot to tell and there's not enough space in this article to write all the "gigantic roles" of Portugal, even if it is a very small country, it managed to survive all these years and get a global Empire, your country has no history, the land is mostly ice in a forgotten corner of the planet, that even the sun forgot, and some hundreds years from now it will disappear and will be completely forgotten and contributed nothing to this planet, Portugal won't, it has important part in world's history: not knowing about it, is ignorance.--Pedro 00:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok my question was why is Portugal's HUGE role in the transatlantic slave trade left out of the "history" section of Portugal? It looks to me very unencyclopedic and much like a national propoganda or tourist broschure. Where do I read the part about Portugals extremely hairy men, and women with moustaches, who have never heard of deodorant:):) I am kidding. Relax a little bit:)


 * OK, it is nice to hear about your sexual preferences: hairy men and women with moustaches. But sorry that's not encyclopediac. The article is not good, and some important and realistic info was removed. As I told you, you should read the HUGE history of Portugal and after that leave a message in here. There are more important things that are left out. In case that you don't know during the reconquista slavery was also very common, the Moors enslaved the Portuguese and the Portuguese enslaved the Moors. Where's that in the article? Where's the inquisition, etc and several other things. Portuguese take bath, in fact there are studies about it, and the Portuguese take much more bath than most Europeans. So you see, you’re not very bright. Besides people out there don't sweet, it falls as snow. The article is a tourist brochure?! So nice to take notice of that, I don't see any tourist intentions in it; it must mean it is an attractive country, maybe this is why Portugal is now above Spain in attracting wealthy and young Northern Europeans to live in it. Yes, it is another study (January 2007). And it must mean something... I'm not stressed, I laughed a lot while reading your message and laughed while replying. Continue to live your icy and grey life and we will continue to live la vida loca. --Pedro 13:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Ai está Pedro, defendendo Portugal com unhas e dentes. Não sei como consegue não. Mas o problema de Portugal é que ainda anda por aí muita mulher com bigode, é ruim mesmo. E são preguiçosos para caramba. Por isso é que já há tanto brasileiro trabalhando aí, o português prefere ficar na cama até ao meio-dia e ver televisão o resto da vida. Aliás, Portugal fez muito mal ao Brasil, mesmo. A gente já correu com vocês daqui há mais de 200 anos e ainda precisa de mais tempo para melhor a situação. Mesmo assim já está ficando melhor que Portugal. Só no Sul há fazendas do tamanho de seu país, rapaz. Portugal no futuro será uma colônia do Brasil. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malik09 (talk • contribs).
 * Malik09, aproveite o facto de estar a usar a Wikipédia para tentar aprender um pouco mais sobre Portugal (com particular atenção à dimensão territorial deste país, a qual adianto está devidamente medida em km2 e não em fazendas) e, porque não, sobre o Brasil também. Recomendo também a leitura de WP:TROLL e especialmente de WP:VANDALISM, esta última pela qual será bloqueado se tentar vandalizar mais algum artigo. Obrigado.-- Hús  ö  nd  02:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Olha Malik09, é bom saber que você não precisou fugir da pobreza, injustiça e violência absurdas que abundam no seu país, nem de vir ganhar a vida para outro país mais desenvolvido e organizado do que o seu, seja na Europa ou na América do Norte. Também é bom saber que ai têm fazendas enormes para toda a gente poder produzir e enriquecer alegremente. Sejam favelados ou do Movimento dos Trabalhadores Rurais Sem Terra, ai há fazendas para todos serem felizes, e isso é uma grande vantagem. A propósito Malik09, quantos milhares de km2 de terra te deram? Gostei de ver você escrever sobre os bigodes das mulheres que deve conhecer tão bem, é pena eu nunca ter visto nenhuma mulher de bigode para te poder ajudar. Mas olha, procura nas velhinhas do sertão e restante nordeste, talvez tenha sorte em achá-las, é que após a menopausa é mais comum e lá não há tanto salão de beleza como no litoral sul. E olhe, não fale do mal que Portugal fez no Brasil dessa maneira, nem queira recordar os abusadores e practicantes da escravatura, pois não há povo com maior descendência directa desses abusadores do que o Brasileiro. Sim, é que eles são os vossos tri-trisavôs directos, sangue do seu sangue, e não tanto daqueles Portugueses que sempre ficaram na Europa onde a escravatura já tinha desaparecido há muito. Tal e qual como nos Estados Unidos da América, em especial no sul, outra terra da escravatura, hoje habitada pelos descendentes directos daqueles que a praticavam antigamente. O pior mesmo é que no Brasil em pleno século XXI há trabalho forçado, semelhante à escravatura, em muitas dessas fazendas do tamanho de Portugal que têm ai. Imagine só o número de escravos brasileiros explorados por fazendeiros brasileiros, que cada uma dessas fazendas deve precisar para funcionar actualmente – eu não quero nem pensar nisso, é deprimente e absolutamente medieval. Fale antes do facto dos Portugueses terem sabido preservar esse território uno e indivisível na América do Sul, contra a cobiça de Holandeses, Espanhóis e Franceses, e que hoje existe tal como é devido à coragem e ao trabalho dos Portugueses que vocês criticam a toda a hora. Não fosse a acção dos Portugueses, e o Brasil podia ser hoje uma dúzia de pequenos países terceiro-mundistas independentes e com línguas tão diversas como espanhol, guarani ou holandês. Assim vocês são hoje um único e enorme país terceiro-mundista a falar português, logo com massa crítica e recursos mais do que suficientes para um dia, quando ganharem a maturidade que já deviam ter atingido, poderem sair dessa situação desgraçada a que chegaram por culpa própria. Se a maior parte povo do Brasil não teve ainda o discernimento para se organizar e prosperar, a culpa não é do povo pacífico e aventureiro que habita do outro lado do oceano e que lhes ofereceu um enorme território transcontinental cheio de riquezas naturais e uma mesma língua do norte ao sul. Olhem mais para os vossos próprios erros e defeitos, e descubram a verdadeira origem dos problemas horríveis de que padecem. Ou nunca passarão de uma frondosa selva cheia de aves raras e gente desesperada, e com algumas mulheres muito bonitas e simpáticas, que em Portugal, quer sejam brasileiras, angolanas, chinesas, ucranianas, romenas ou portuguesas, são sempre muito apreciadas e bem tratadas, obviamente. E olhe, é muito mais fácil e provável São Paulo e o Rio de Janeiro tornarem-se colónias do Primeiro Comando da Capital e de outros grupos criminosos, do que Portugal se tornar numa colónia do Brasil. O problema do Brasil é que para cada coisa boa que tem de valor, consegue-se sempre encontrar 2 coisas ruins que deitam todo o resto a perder. Para cada bom político brasileiro há 2 políticos brasileiros sacanas, para cada boa empresa brasileira há 2 que não produzem nada, para cada universidade de qualidade há 2 que são uma anedota e assim sucessivamente. É como no futebol, para cada golo que não marcam há 2 golos que sofrem... Page Up 21:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Uau, você é mesmo ignorante. Devia ver na secção de Economia do Brasil antes de deitar esse vomitado verbal que você bem gosta de botar. 4 em cada 5 brasileiros vivem em zonas urbanas. Brasileiros escravizados em fazendas? Não sei do que você está falando mesmo. País terceiro mundista? É a nona economia mundial, São Paulo é uma capital global da economia. A agricultura é muito mais industrializada e moderna aqui do que nesse país patético. Vocês aí em Portugal estão é ruídos de inveja que os seus antigos escravos já estejam ultrapassando vocês. Vosso país anda sempre á pendura na Europa, sempre pedindo esmola para a União Europêia. Se tivesse sido Holanda ou Inglaterra a colonizar o Brasil, a gente agora estaria bem melhor mesmo. Vocês portugueses só causaram exploração, pobreza e fome. E por acaso, não tenho descendência portuguesa, meus antepassados vieram de Itália. Pacífico e aventureiro? Você deve ser daqueles portugueses do antigo Estado Novo, que só achavam que tinham dado boas coisas para todo o mundo. Quanto às mulheres, tente comparar as novelas portugueseas com as novelas da Globo. Enquanto nas novelas brasileiras são todas modelos e formosas, aí é tudo feiosas e bigodaças. Até na musica se vê a diferença. O povo brasileiro é muito mais animado e tá sempre vivendo desligadão, enquanto aí anda sempre tudo com o fado, e deprimido para caramba. E nem sequer me venha falar de política, que no seu país os autarcas são todos ladrões. Sempre botando dinheiro no bolso e depois vêm passar férias no Brasil. E quanto ao futebol, o vosso melhor jogador é brasileiro, cara. Vocês só ganham em amistosos, jogos em que os brasileiros brincam com a bola. Depois quando chegam os jogos a valer, vêm com o fado, e o eterno sofrimento. Que tristeza de povo. Você nem tem a miníma chance, mané. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malik09 (talk • contribs).


 * Apparently our highly enlightened Brazillian friend can't speak English, for a country so developed, it's somewhat in the realm of the uncanny - mas vindo d'um terceiro mundo onde algums nem Português sabem falar, nem por isso, e já nos damos por contentes - nevertheless I'll submit myself to his ideosynchratic third worlded educational limits: Tenho a ligeira certeza que o Brasileiro médio acabar-se-ia, mais tarde ou mais cedo, embarassado com a representação do nosso pobre pateta ultramarino residente. Vamos lá ver, nem todos os Brasileiros são tão analfabetos ou desinformados como este. Mas não é que o pobre coitado foi comparar o produto nacional bruto de um pais com 180 milhões de habitantes (contados e vestidos) com um de 10 milhões de habitantes. Abençoado génio tropical! Pronto; já nem falo de quem são os verdadeiros donos do capital no Brasil, Portugueses, ou Europeus quer da Europa, quer das Americas mais desenvolvidas a norte, todos eles nas bolsas de mercados, não nas bolsas de favelas, porque, enfim; a brutal ignorância d'aritmética e análise estatística do pobre homem, ou coisa, já fala por si que chegue, sem necessidade de argumentos adicionais. Meus amigos, Portugueses, e os outros que já foram um dia, sejamos claros como a água: Os pais deram na miscegenação, os filhos, deram nisto. Ora bem. E siga em frente... Ultron 18:49, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

'''Isto está a tornar-se num fórum de insultos nacionais! Parem, por favor! Todos os países são uma merda, o meu também, mas não gosto que me lixem! Se querem defender as vossas "virtudes" nacionais, façam-no de maneira positiva, não pela diminuição e ataque aos outros. De toda a maneira, o objectivo da wikipédia é construir um relato justo e neutro sobre o que quer que seja - com qualidades e defeitos. Deixem-se de tretas irrelevantes para o trabalho wikipédico. Se querem insultar-se mutuamente usem outra plataforma! Portugal e Brazil são só dois países. Como todos os outros. E ambos não seriam o que são um sem o outro. Por favor...''' The Ogre 01:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The Ogre, such harsh language and bold type are unnecessary and counterproductive. User Malik09 has been warned against personal attacks/disruptive behavior and shall be blocked if he/she persists in this manner. As for Page Up, please avoid feeding the trolls. Above all, please be calm and observe WP:CIVIL. Thank you. Hús  ö  nd  02:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The portuguese people did not enslave blacks, the governing elites did with their orders from Rome. People are not the primary problem, it is governments. And the slavery part can go in the article when black people (those who insist on claiming heritage of the moors, and many moors were my ancestors by the way including caliphates, emirs and the so called prophet himself) own up to pillaging, raping, conquering, forcing islam, occupying for nearly 8 centuries in the iberian peninsula and so on and so forth. Then your desires can be fulfilled by adding the slavery bit into portuguese history about how the portuguese went into subsaharan africa to get black slaves that black people kidnapped and handed over to the slavers themselves, deal?

Furthermore, The Ogre did indeed use bold type but his language was not harsh and in fact was encouraging the insults to stop and to communicate in a more positive manner. - Lusitano Transmontano 06:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * "Your country is worse than mine" is childish; xenophobia in 2007 is distressing and most probably indicates lack of education. Both are inappropriate for an encyclopaedia. Cigsandalcohol 07:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

É pena que tenhamos esta situação na nossa pagina. Ignorancia foi mostrada por ambos os lados.

O tema da escravatura ate foi esposto de maneira errada e a informação infelizmente incorrecta. Portugal é um dos paises mais civicos que existem na Europa, e sempre mostrou uma attitude civica e de tolerancia durante a sua história. A escravatura intercontinental já existia antes dos descobrimentos e infelizmente existe muita ignorancia em relação ao que eu vou asseguir dizer:

. Muitos dos primeiros escravos que foram levados para Portugal foram tratados devidamente e ate muitos deles foram oferecidos propriedades para viverem no Algarve(por causa da baixa população) e alguns até titulos casando até com casas nobres. Estes "recêm chegados" eram imediatamente considerados como portugueses.

.Durante o tempo de D.João II a escravatura era virtualmente inexistente(e proibida em varios aspectos) porque o ouro de Guiné financiava as viagems e muitos outros serviços.

. Quando um grupo de colonistas chegava a uma nova costa e se existisse população autoctone, eles entravam em relações comerciais directas, e eram quase sempre obrigados a casar entre etnias, normalmente eram as mulheres aquelas que eram de outras etnias. Em quase todso os casos estas recebiams direitos iguais aos dos portuguese e elas e os seus filhos eram aceites como portugueses, independentemente do suceso do casamento e as autoridades reais queriam que fossem portugueses officialmente.

.Os colonos Portugueses nunca capturaram escravos, estes muito cedo aprenderam que podiam comerciar com os mercadores muculmanos e obter escravos apartir deles, ironicamente muitos deste escravos eram tratados dignamente como seres humanos em Portugal e eram muitas vezes libertados após uns anos de serviço das casas onde estavam.

.Durante ataques a cidades costeiras tal como o exemplo do ataque a Mombassa, Afonso de Albuquerque ordenou que não magoassem as crianças e as mulheres, e estes foram na sua maioria levados para Portugal, em que quaisquer crianças orfâs eram adotadas por familias nobres e eram educados como portugueses e criados para serem portugueses. As mulheres que tinham filhos eram deixadas em paz e recebiam contributos para terem uma nova vida e para se contentarem com a sua vida em portugal, adicionando assim mais população a um Portugal com uma pop inferior a 1,5 millhões.

.Durante os ataques a cidades costeiras apenas os muculmanos que ofereciam resistencia eram mortos, as mulheres e crianças eram deixados em paz, outras comunidades de outras religiões que queriam trocar com outros grupos eram proibidas peloes muculmanos, e os portugueses nunca perssegiram estas outras religiões, hindus por exemplo agradeciam a presença do portugueses e estes eram diexados em paz assim como as outras religiões, a até o islamismo foi deixado de ser perseguido depois de alguns anos. Por exemplo, a conquista de Malaca foi feita sem qualquer perseguissão a religiões a excepção ao islamismo. Esta perseguissão ao islamismo era feita na alura apenas por causa que os portugueses acreditavam que estavam em cruzada.

.Os Portugueses criavam casamentos entre etnias em todo o planeta, todas a colonias foram obrigadas a proceder a este processo. Governadores locais eram quase sempre se não sempre de etnias locais, num gesto de tolerancia e boa amizade. As populações viviam sub as suas proprias regras culturais.

. Outros impérios tais como o império inglês proibiam casamentos entres etnias deste o inicio. De tal modo havia a crença das raças que ate ja existiam na corte inglesa e imprensa inglesa e no inicio do secXVII criticavam os portugueses e chamavam-nos de "bastardos de meia raça", esta é a tradução literal do que era escrito habitualmente.

. Portugal foi o ultimo reino da europa a aceitar a inquisição e foi tambem o pais europeu em que a inquisição teve grande difficulddes em avançar e nunca chegou a aplicar medidas que aplicou em outros paises como por exemplo a Espanha, de facto, Portugal nunca teve medidas tao duras como nos outros paises. Varios reis como por exemplo D.Manuel I criaram varias taticas politicas para impedir a inquisição em Portugal e tambem crivam um sistema de engano legal, atraves de contantes trocas de leis que no fim tornavam a inquisição impraticavel em portugal. Portugal sempre teve uma grande pop judia quando em comparaçao com outros paises europeus, agora não tem o que é por acaso uma grande ironia no sentido em que contraria toda a historia de portugal. Ninguêm foi morto em autos de fe, isso é um mito, os culpados eram libertados secretamente quando eram deixados em paz no seu ultimo momento, pequenas chamas eram ateadas no feno e há ate registos de pessaos que notovam que havia chamas pintadas na palha do auto, ate as pessoas sabiam que eram uma farça. Portugal ate teve problemas com o Papa em relação a isto porque esta constantemente a tentar atrasar a inquisição, apesar ate depois de se tornar legal no reino. Apenas com a perda da inpendencia e que com Espanha a inquisição se ativou plenamente em Portugal. Antes da perda da independencia portugal recebia judeus de toda a europa, mas principalmente a espanha, registos indicam que 700 familias judaicas espanholas foram aceites em portugal. Durante o tempo de Sebastiao de Melo inquisição foi de novo completamente proibida e judeus foram convidados para ficar no pais e recebiam regalias sociais e economicas.

.Durante o tempo de Sebastião de Melo, Portugal foi o primeiro imperio europeu a proibir a escravatura em todo o imperio, incluindo o Brasil, no entanto essa ordem não foi feita no Brasil(e ilegalmente) por causa dos fazendeiros no Brazil que recusaram esta medida porque precisavam de mão-de-obra escrava. Aos aborigenes foi oferecido o estatuto de cidadãos do imperio sem quaisquer restricões. Infelizmente filmes como "A Missão" mostram uma faceta propositadamente negativa de portugal, e foi por isso que o filme foi criticado pela sua total falta de caracter e precisão historica por parte de toda a comunidade academica portuguesa. Durante anos ha registos de embarcações com escravos dos quais os escravos eram imediatamente libertados quando os navios chegavam a costa de portugal e das suas colonias.

. Durante toda a epoca do imperio português era muito habitual os escravão serem libertados e serem tratados como seres humanos, e sempre existiu uma grande tolerancia e sentido de irmandade entre os portugueses e os povos que estes encontravam.

.Desde o inicio dos descobrimentos que havia vários politicos que estavam contra a escravatura.

Infelizmente não é esta a idea que muitas pessoas têm de Portugal, e ja vi muita critica injusta. É verdade o que aconteceu com os transporte de escravos para o Brazil, eu não estou a dizer que nós não fizemos muitas coisas que hoje em dia seriam consideradas completamente inapropriadas, a questão é que no passado não eram vistas assim, e de acordo com o comportamento que nações europeias tinham em relação a outros povos, Portugal para o seu tempo sempre se mostrou à frente do tempo em termos de tolerância e relações com outros povos, de tal maneira que quando propaganda anti portuguesa apparecia em outros imperios, estes retratavam os portugueses como "bastardos de meia raça" ironicamente devido a sua attitude demasiado tolerante e amistosa. Ainda hoje Portugal é dos paises europeus com menos problemas entre etnias.

Alias, se fosse um outro reino europeu que estivesse na vanguarda como portugal esteve, nao teria este feito as mesmas coisas que portugal fez?

Thorius Maximus 23:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You might do some reserach on your prejudices before posting. Portugal was one of the fisrt, not last, contries to abolish slavery. also Brasil abolished slavery after Portugal, and yes when it was already independent (butthe King was still Portuguese). any mention to slavery in the XX century is just nonsense. Of course there were abuses, but i would say like elesewhere. btw, Portugal was also the first contry in the world to abolish death penalty. --BBird 23:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries
On the WikiProject Countries talk page, the section Location Maps for European countries had shown new maps created by David Liuzzo, that are available for the countries of the European continent, and for countries of the European Union exist in two versions. From November 16, 2006 till January 31, 2007, a poll had tried to find a consensus for usage of 'old' or of which and where 'new' version maps. Please note that since January 1, 2007 all new maps became updated by David Liuzzo (including a world locator, enlarged cut-out for small countries) and as of February 4, 2007 the restricted licence that had jeopardized their availability on Wikimedia Commons, became more free. At its closing, 25 people had spoken in favor of either of the two presented usages of new versions but neither version had reached a consensus (12 and 13), and 18 had preferred old maps. As this outcome cannot justify reverting of new maps that had become used for some countries, seconds before February 5, 2007 a survey started that will be closed soon at February 20, 2007 23:59:59. It should establish two things: Please read the discussion (also in other sections α, β, γ, δ, ε, ζ, η, θ) and in particular the arguments offered by the forementioned poll, while realizing some comments to have been made prior to updating the maps, and all prior to modifying the licences, before carefully reading the '''presentation of the currently open survey. You are invited''' to only then finally make up your mind and vote for only one option. There mustnot be 'oppose' votes; if none of the options would be appreciated, you could vote for the option you might with some effort find least difficult to live with - rather like elections only allowing to vote for one of several candidates. Obviously, you are most welcome to leave a brief argumentation with your vote. Kind regards. — SomeHuman 19 Feb2007 00:36 (UTC)
 * whether the new style maps may be applied as soon as some might become available for countries outside the European continent (or such to depend on future discussions),
 * which new version (with of without indicating the entire European Union by a separate shade) should be applied for which countries.

Proposal to merge Prehistoric Spain with Prehistoric Portugal & move to Prehistoric Iberia
Currently, the text of Prehistoric Spain seems really to be about prehistoric Iberia. Similarly, the text of Prehistoric Portugal seems really to be about the same thing. This would be perfectly understandable seeing as there was no Spain and no Portugal in prehistoric times. I have argued therefore that it would be best to have these articles merged under a title which indicates the geographical region rather than the modern states. I have proposed the articles be merged and moved to Prehistoric Iberia. Please come and discuss my proposal. Jimp 09:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello Jim. If the merge goes through, what shall we do with Pre-Roman Portugal? You see, Prehistoric Spain encompasses a period that the "Portuguese" articles differentiated into Prehistoric Portugal and Pre-Roman Portugal. Should we merge them all? The Ogre 13:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to fix a mistake on Port
Someone fix this. This page said Port was named after taking it "to port" but the page on Port has the real origin: "The wine received its name, "Port" in the latter half of the 17th century from the seaport city of Porto at the mouth of the Douro River, where much of the product was brought to market or for export to other countries in Europe from the Leixões docks."

Map
The map locating Portugal in Europe in the country box (any of the ones I've seen so far) is incorrect, since it does not include the Azores or Madeira. They had a similar discussion in the Spain article regarding the inclusion of the Canary islands. This must be changed accordingly. The Ogre 14:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's incorrect, it's just not 100% accurate by showing only the continental part of Portugal. But let's face it, maybe it's better the way it is than to clutter it with all the overseas regions of some European states, such as the French Guyana, etc.-- Hús  ö  nd  00:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Facts and Figures
What's this about "Royal Family bloodline found: King Martinez the V, last Portugese King" on the "Facts and Figures" section? Is it vandalism or am I oblivious about some obscure dinasty? :) Bmdsantos 19:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nonsense removed now. It was funny though. -- Hús  ö  nd  20:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet another Map
This ahistorical and unsourced map keeps cropping up all over the place. Would someone take care of it, please? --Janneman 14:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

"Accidental" Discovery - Misunderstanding of the word "Accidental"
Page Up reverted my addition of the word "accidental" with the following comment: In the age of discovery all new territory explorations were "accidental", first explorers didn't know what was there.. This is wrong. Portuguese explorers had heard of the places they were trying to get to: namely, India, China and Japan, etc - the Orient. They went there on a mission. They may have been pleased to get there, but it was their intention to find these places. On the other hand, sailing west, Columbus accidentally discovered America, because it was not his intention to do so - he too was looking for Japan. Had America not existed and he made it all the way to Japan, he would not have accidentally discovered Japan because it was his intention to find it all along. Sailing south-west, on a course to Africa, Cabral accidentally discovered Brazil, because according to the standard view of historians at the moment, Cabral sighted land when he was not expecting to do so. Therefore, it was an accidental discovery. As your own reference says, it was either accidental or intentional. There is a theory that he accidentally discovered Brazil, that is the prevalent view, and should be the one WP states. There is a theory that he set out intentionally for Brazil, that is not a widely held theory. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 12:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello. No, it was not a misunderstanding. I am not saying it was intentional, but you can not say it was NOT intentional because you don't know. And please, do not remove academic review citations from JSTOR. The fact is that in 1500 he was there and claimed Brazil to Portugal. That is what we know. The word "accidentally" is not accurate information, and the word "intentionally" would not be accurate too.Page Up 13:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hold on a second: it's not about what I do or do not know, it's about what the sources say. The standard view of historians is that Brazil was accidentally discovered.  The standard view is what should be most prominent.  As a compromise, I'll accept that the word "accidental" does not stay in the main text, but I have explained the standard view in the footnotes, and linked to Alternative theory of the European discovery of Brazil, which is where I had moved your reference to.  I did not delete it from Wikipedia.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick  14:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, sounds good to me now.Page Up 13:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)