Talk:Portuguese Empire in the Indonesian Archipelago

Page moved...
...why? It should be announced on talk page with explanation. IN the meantime please restore it. --Merbabu (talk) 06:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved to Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia per discussion. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:11, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The Portuguese in Indonesia → Portuguese colonisation in Indonesia – This article is titled like a book. If somebody can come up with a better word than "colonisation" I'd be happy to hear it. 216.8.168.199 (talk) 19:56, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.



Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * How about Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia? --xensyriaT 20:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems like the article covers more than just colonialism, such as ongoing presence. ENeville (talk) 02:45, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * How about Portuguese people in Indonesia? That would have a broader scope and the name would be consistent with similar articles such as Chinese people in Burma or Japanese people in Russia. Jafeluv (talk) 10:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

This article is about the history of Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia (have you all read it before discussing - it's not long). It is not about the Portuguese diaspora, ethnic group, or whatever, in Indonesia. Thus, the current title and the suggested "Portuguese people in Indonesia" do not convey the article scope properly. Perhaps "Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia" is the best suggestion, so far. regards --Merbabu (talk) 01:28, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, looking at what's currently in the article, Portuguese colonialism in Indonesia looks like the best suggestion to me. Jenks24 (talk) 12:19, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Anachronistic name
This article deals with Portuguese colonisation in what is now Indonesia and East Timor. However, the standard name used throughout the colonial era was "East Indies" (incl. the"Spice Islands"). The neologism "Indonesia" was coined long after the end of the Portuguese presence in what is now Indonesia. The only vestige of Portuguese colonialism in the East Indies was Portuguese Timor.

East Indies are not Indonesia alone
Portuguese colonial rule is one of the understudied misrepresented and distorted topics of history due to the Black Propaganda against Portugal and Spain, manufactured by Dutch Calvinists as part of the Protestant Revolutionary propagandas.

Just as the West Indies of the Americas are a grouping of islands and coastlands discovered by Spain but are independent countries today, the East Indies were also a grouping of all the islands and coastlands discovered by Portuguese explorers in the Eastern hemisphere, but today the Indies form parts of different independant countries in Indo-Pacific sphere

1 One more reality check

Velha Goa, far from Indonesia was not only an integral part of the East Indies as a Dutchman has written.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=d9wxgEKTfSAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Goa+capital+of+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Goa%20capital%20of%20East%20Indies&f=false

But it's very capital:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=LrkTAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA291&dq=Albuquerque+Goa+capital+of+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis1a-e7s7yAhV3yosBHW5dAg0Q6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=Albuquerque%20Goa%20capital%20of%20East%20Indies&f=false

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=1bFLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA303&dq=Albuquerque+Goa+capital+of+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis1a-e7s7yAhV3yosBHW5dAg0Q6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=Albuquerque%20Goa%20capital%20of%20East%20Indies&f=false

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FACFDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT86&dq=Albuquerque+Goa+capital+of+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis1a-e7s7yAhV3yosBHW5dAg0Q6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q=Albuquerque%20Goa%20capital%20of%20East%20Indies&f=false

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=PStO9GB25vAC&pg=PA603&dq=Albuquerque+Goa+capital+of+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis1a-e7s7yAhV3yosBHW5dAg0Q6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=Portuguese%20Indies&f=false

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=addWCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA63&dq=Goa+the+capital+of+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ2rzl687yAhVjyosBHR_IBTc4HhDoAXoECAoQAw#v=onepage&q=Goa%20the%20capital%20of%20East%20Indies&f=false

2 Portuguese were the first Europeans to sail into Indian Ocean, see Portuguese discovery of the sea route to India, they first came to India not Indonesia. https://books.google.co.in/books?id=8ceVswEACAAJ&dq=indias+orientais+East+Indies&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

After the Luso-Dutch Wars the Dutch seized colonies that were founded by the Portuguese, but the Dutch were restricted to what would become Indonesia and continued to call their colonies East Indies

From a historical perspective, Portuguese East Indies were geographically dispersed, and most not be point of viewed through the Dutch Empire's lens, "East Indies" are not the exclusive naming right of Indonesia as claimed by Islamists of the worldwide Sunni Caliphate, ie the Sunni rival of European colonialism.

3 The East Indies are a colonial terminology, The Portuguese in Indonesia as an Independent country should be a separate article, just as former Portuguese East Indies possessions are divided up into Portuguese Mozambique, Portuguese Goa and Damaon, Portuguese Macao, Portuguese Malacca, Portuguese Timor etc. Nolicmahr (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

For reference and discussion: Special:Diff/1040757928 Nolicmahr (talk) 18:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Alright, I understand you sir, but this article was made and is about "Under the context of Indonesian history". the Timorese already get their own article, Malaya has it's own article, and this article is a project of Wikiproject:Indonesia. Mhatopzz (talk) 02:40, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mhatopzz. As the original article creator (for what that is worth), I can advise that my intent was Portuguese colonialism in the history of Indonesia. This is clear from both the original article title and the original lead sentence. It was a created many years ago, and I've since had extended wiki break. Apart from the lead, and the title, the article has not changed much. It's not the greatest article, but it's still about Indonesia. I think the intent was lost when it was argued that since there was no "Indonesia" four centuries ago, then we must call it the East Indies (and it wasn't yet the "dutch east indies"). Hence Nolicmahr's concerns over the title "east indies". To put the Macau, Malaysian and India History templates ahead of the Indonesian template makes no sense when the article does not cover the history of these countries.
 * I like Mhatopzz's change of article name today. "Portuguese colonialism in Indonesian history" is, i suggest, the best title yet for this page, and I will modify the lead sentence to be in line with that.--Merbabu (talk) 05:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Of course the use of colonialism and Indonesia are shorthand for very different realities in the early modern period (when our conceptions of them date to the nineteenth or twentieth centuries), but in writing for a mass audience we can't use obscure terms or qualify a title with many clauses to make it academically correct. I'd say as it is is imperfect but probably the most appropriate for what people will search for. As to the claim that Indonesia was claimed by a worldwide Sunni Caliphate I have to admit I'm scratching my head at that one. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:15, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that the current title, i.e. Portuguese colonialism in Indonesian history, makes sense, both in terms of what people will search for and the scope of the article. Although the Republic of Indonesia did not exist before independence, the concept of Indonesia, and therefore its history, certainly did. I think that one possible alternative, the historically neutral Malay Archipelago, would cover too large an area for this article. Davidelit (Talk) 04:05, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Sir, thank you for understanding and the swift resolution to the issue. Ive found another article that will better serve the purpose of "Portuguese East Indies". Plz stop scratching and start reading: Fall of Constantinople, Cape route, Ottoman Caliphate, Khilafat movement, Ottoman-Portuguese confrontations& Ottoman expedition to Aceh. I am not making up stories. Nolicmahr (talk) 03:08, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

January 2023
The conversation above suggests a title of "Portuguese colonialism in the Indonesian history." Yet it was changed to "Portuguese Empire in the Indonesian Archipelago". The former is better (colonialism is broader than empire, although archipelago might be better than history), and seems to have support. --Merbabu (talk) 10:53, 11 January 2023 (UTC)