Talk:Post-2008 Irish economic downturn/Archive 1

Plagiarism
The language of the "Waterford sit-in" section of this article has too many words and phrases copied directly from the source. It needs to be paraphrased. Almost entire sentences are copied without quotation marks. I haven't looked at any other sections since I was checking just this one section for DYK, but the rest of the article should be checked as well. Awadewit (talk) 12:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ? -- Candlewicke STundefined 19:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * So, yeah, it would be fantastic if you could point out some of this 'plagiarism'. Bsimmons 666  (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

As you can see from the comparison below, the diction, syntax, and flow of the passage in Wikipedia is almost identical to that of the source.

Wikipedia: "A statement issued by the receiver, Deloitte's David Carson, confirmed that, of the 670 employees, 480 of them would be laid off.[53] The workers responded angrily to this unexpected decision and at least 100 of them began an unofficial sit-in in the visitors' gallery at the factory that night.[53] They insisted they would refuse to leave until they had met with Carson.[53] Following the revelations, there was a minor scuffle during which the main door to the visitors' centre was damaged.[53] Local Sinn Féin Councillor Joe Kelly was amongst those who occupied the visitors' gallery."

Source

"A statement from the receiver, David Carson of Deloitte, confirmed that 480 of the 670 employees have been made redundant....At least 100 Waterford Crystal employees are refusing to leave the visitors' gallery at the factory tonight and are staging an unofficial sit-in. The employees say they will not be leaving until they meet with Mr Carson. There were some scuffles at one point and a main door to the visitors' centre was damaged....Local Sinn Féin Councillor Joe Kelly, who is one of those currently occupying the visitors' gallery, said the receiver had told staff he would not close the company while there were interested investors."

This is not a paraphrase - it is plagiarism. Plagiarism is not just copying whole sections without quotation marks, it is also copying words and phrases, the style of writing, and the ideas. That is what has been done here. Very little effort has been put into creating a new piece of writing here. Awadewit (talk) 15:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Then please tell me what I may refer to Carson as other than a "receiver" without it being altered due to original research as has happened in the past. Or how I can twist the numbers without telling lies by switching them completely. Another term for a "visitors's gallery" would be nice – my thesaurus is particularly unhelpful here. I'm not sure what other terminology there is to describe a local councillor by their political affiliation. I'd have removed his name if I'd not thought it a bit vague. I omitted the bit about what the receiver actually told the staff so there'sno similarity there. And what is more ironic is I've altered "have been made redundant" to "would be laid off" and now there is a discussion taking place elsewhere over whether the two terms are in any way similar – indicating that it should really be plagiarised as "redundant"? -- Candlewicke STundefined 18:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Increasing debt spiral
Isn't the figure of $535,000 missing a word or two? On its' own that figure looks rather small compared to most of the figures being bandied about in the media.Autarch (talk) 12:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Hypocrisy of british Public Opinion, careful when you use it in sources.
When Greece was getting a rescue package they were only "they should default instead". When Ireland gets it "We're in!", since they'd be affected otherwise. Careful when you use sources in articles from biased sources with specific targeted interests. --Leladax (talk) 18:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, Mainland Britain is going to 'chip in' to help Ireland. Opinions are mixed, but I don't see how this represents 'hypocrisy'. (I am English, by the way).  I don't feel like a hypocrite, because I have been to a good few war cemeteries in Europe, and seen how many names on graves begin with O'. We are also well aware of Ireland's very quirky interpretation of the word 'neutral' during 'the emergency'.  Like we have heard; "A friend in need"... 86.146.27.191 (talk) 23:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make sense. The point is not who died in World War II (which had Greek resistance (e.g. they stopped Italy on their own), but anyway). The point is that if you are about to go "Economic Analysis" you can't say one day "Greece has to default and not accept the loan because it's pegged to the euro and can't devaluate and blah blah" bs which basically shows how much they hate European Union in general because they are still hanging on the British Empire memory, and at the next say "Ireland has to be supported because it's a close partner" because that's equivalent to saying "I'm a hypocrite, I lied with that "Analysis" and it did work to get the package, so I want the collapse of others by not letting them accept the package but not Ireland who is affecting me and has to accept the package". --94.69.90.35 (talk) 13:35, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point, I suppose. But how would the Irish feel if the UK had applied its 'double standards' the other way? i.e. pressing to bail out Greece but refusing its geographic and cultural close neighbour Ireland?.  It would be like Greece letting Cyprus go to the wolves.  I'm not sure about the 'British Empire Memory' bit.  It's been a very long time since all the big red bits on the map vanished; we don't 'mourn' it, and most young Brits are probably barely aware of what 'The Commonwealth' (wealth?...Ha!) used to be.  It feels 'odd' being English nowadays; we share our islands with peoples who we 'like' and regard as 'kin', and yet they seem to despise us in return. Often makes me wonder if we should have taken England out of the UK instead :-) 86.146.27.191 (talk) 16:58, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * But then what would happen to Scotland, the country that can't even put up a building or build a tram line without going 8 or 9 figures over budget?82.25.174.63 (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but we cannot answer, unless we know whether you are either a Scotsman talking about his own country, or somebody else throwing mud at the Scots. As an Englishman, I would rather not mention the Channel Tunnel, Millennium Dome etc. As regards prescriptions, the care of the elderly etc. the Scots are well in front of us English.  Anyway, this article is about the Irish Banking Crisis, which was caused by the same over-optimistic folly as the USA crisis, i.e. lending money willy-nilly in the misheld faith in ever-growing property equity during the 'Celtic Tiger' era.  My initial point was that (no matter how much they sometimes seem to hate us) most historically-aware Brits still regard the Irish as 'family'.  I feel that the UK would have still 'chipped-in' even if Europe hadn't, even if it appeared as a sound, prudent 'loan' from which the UK will benefit in the long term in the sense of 'returns on bonds'.  It showed that somebody at least has long-term 'faith' in Ireland's ability to service the interest, which has not gone un-noticed on bond markets.  The UK can borrow money at a lower rate than Ireland, so use it and rebuild!  It is perhaps also worth mentioning that if Scotland was a totally independant 'island' nation, without the benefit of English contributions in the form of the 'Barnett Formula', paying its own way in the EU, and having to undercut to sell 'its' inferior crude oil on world markets, its current social expenditure would require an income tax rate of 113 pence in the pound :-) 86.146.27.191 (talk) 21:36, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

i know that it's hard not to at the moment if you're irish, but i'd urge everyone to bear in mind that there are many things that wikipedia is not - soapbox, forum, publisher of original thought, or crystal ball. --Kaini (talk) 23:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I've read every word of the comments above, but after reading them several times I still cannot find the part where we asked you for your opinion. Please could you point it out to us? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.27.191 (talk) 02:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * speculation along the lines of "Mainland Britain is going to 'chip in' to help Ireland. Opinions are mixed, but I don't see how this represents 'hypocrisy'. (I am English, by the way).", "how would the Irish feel if the UK had applied its 'double standards' the other way?", and "I feel that the UK would have still 'chipped-in' even if Europe hadn't, even if it appeared as a sound, prudent 'loan' from which the UK will benefit in the long term in the sense of 'returns on bonds'.  It showed that somebody at least has long-term 'faith' in Ireland's ability to service the interest, which has not gone un-noticed on bond markets.  The UK can borrow money at a lower rate than Ireland, so use it and rebuild!" are all POV-pushing opinion, speculation, and in an article which is, to a degree, concerned with the manner in which online opinion as a whole potentially has a cooling effect on markets or public perception and subsequently on markets... this is a difficult and painful topic, especially if you are an irish editor - WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and WP:V become especially important in articles like this. we must endeavour to ensure that this article only uses the best sources, not editorial or polemic content --Kaini (talk) 02:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal 2012

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
 * The result was redirect/merge to this article. --George Ho (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I propose that the Economic crisis of Ireland entry be merged into and redirected to this page. The intended scope of both articles is identical, and this is the older, and in my opinion, the better version. I was actually tempted to just turn Economic crisis of Ireland into a redirect without discussion - another user had actually prodded the page as original research/essay - but there is a lot of information there and some of it might be worth smerging here. And it's certainly worth seeking consensus. Any other opinions? --Dawn Bard (talk) 02:07, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support: I think that if there is encyclopedic information in the Economic crisis of Ireland article that does not duplicate the information in 2008–2011 Irish financial crisis, it could be merged with a redirect. (Full disclosure: I'm the one who originally prodded it.)  ...  disco spinster   talk  00:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support as per Dawn Bard; the present situation is that we have two articles with the exact same scope, and that is never desirable. Kaini (talk) 01:08, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Support as per above. – Plarem (User talk contribs) 10:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Moves?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Jenks24 (talk) 09:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


 * 2008–2012 Irish financial crisis → 2008–present Irish financial crisis
 * 2008–2012 Irish banking crisis → 2008–present Irish banking crisis
 * 2008–2011 Spanish financial crisis → 2008–present Spanish financial crisis
 * 2008–2011 Icelandic financial crisis → 2008–present Icelandic financial crisis
 * It is still happening, it has not ended and the page changes its name every year, this should prevent such changes until it ends (if it ends) 86.40.202.243 (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Moved from "Contested technical requests by Anthony Appleyard (talk) at06:31, 17 January 2012 (UTC).
 * Oppose Due to usage of "present", per WP:RELTIME & WP:MOS. --Cyber cobra (talk) 08:17, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The "present" looks more ridiculous. What else do the press call them? --George Ho (talk) 20:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. WP:NOTPAPER. one of the nice things about wikipedia is that it's fluid. if the crisis continues for another ten years, that's ten renames. not a big deal. Kaini (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment -- WP does not like "present"; "current", etc, becasue they become obsolete. Equally, having to rename them every year is unsatisfactory.  How about looking for something without a final limit Irish financial crisis, 2008–, etc.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:57, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Austerity Referendum
I added this subsection to the 2012 section. Please add details including actual measures, eg public sector pay and housing taxes. John a s (talk) 22:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The Irish Depression of 2009
You might want to get someone to comment on how the Irish feel about Britain bailing out Greece and leaving them to continue to twist in the wind.... I don't know about England, but here, you take care of your own first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.119.81.135 (talk) 14:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Ireland aren't 'our own' 82.25.174.63 (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Ireland is not in economic depression as unemployment is not at 15%.It's in a severe economic recession though --Kevinharte (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

See Economic depression; one definition of depression is 10% reduction in GDP,so by that token it was a depression. John a s (talk) 22:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2010–2013 Greek protests which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:46, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2012–2013 Cypriot financial crisis which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 23:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: move the page to Post-2008 Irish economic downturn, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 00:19, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

2008–14 Irish financial crisis → ? – Two problems with the current title:


 * 1) As the hatnote states, the article is about more than finance. It is really a spinoff of Great Recession rather than financial crisis of 2007–08. We already have 2008–14 Irish banking crisis for the financial part.
 * 2) Six years is a long "crisis"; some other word is better for the timeframe.

Suggested alternatives:
 * Post-2008 Irish recession or Post-2008 Irish economic downturn — One drawback of using "recession" is that, by most definitions of recession, the Irish recession ended some years ago. Thus 2008–14 Irish recession is an inaccurate use of "recession" whereas 2008–10 Irish recession is an inaccurate description of the article. Strictly speaking, the latter is not inaccurate but merely misleading; the article can legitimately discuss the post-recession situation as part of the consequences of the earlier period. The vague wording "post-2008" attempts to square the circle by avoiding specifying an end date. The vagueness of "economic downturn" compared to "recession" might likewise be a plus or a minus.
 * Post-2008 Irish recession and austerity or 2008–14 Irish recession and austerity — avoids some of the problems of "recession" at the cost of verbosity.
 * Irish economy since 2008 or Irish economic history since 2008 — dodges the terminology question altogether, while keeping the same remit. Might be seen as (pro-government?) whitewashing. The vagueness of "since 2008" is not necessary here, so Irish economy 2008–14 or Irish economic history 2008–14 (or rearrangements thereof) are also possible. jnestorius(talk) 21:08, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support change to any of the options as better than the one currently used, especially: Post-2008 Irish economic downturn, Irish economy 2008-14 or Irish economic history 2008-14. I suggest the use of hypnen.  Practically no-one other than Wikipedia uses dashes in relation to date information. "2008–14". Gregkaye  ✍ ♪  22:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Post-2008 Irish economic downturn as it avoids the word recession and end dating. Snappy (talk) 17:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page move Feb 15th
An anon IP requested a page move (as "non controversial, technical") for this and many other similar articles. I've requested that they be moved back. The "Great Recession" isn't widely used, and where it is, is generally taken to refer to 2007 to 2008, or 2009, depending on who you're reading. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 00:02, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Or 2013 if you're reading Timeline of the Great Recession. Or The Daily Telegraph. Or here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.44.248.241 (talk) 02:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Major edits
, could I suggest you slow down a little on the edits? A little more care with them and you wouldn't need to self-revert quite so much, and other editors wouldn't be confronted by around 50 recent changes when they look at the article history. Controversial additions, and certainly moves, should be discussed here first. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:31, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Article improvements
I have recently added pictures to the article, as the article looked a bit "bland"--DylanMcKaneWiki (talk) 23:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Please stop with "improvements". You moved the article again without consensus. If you continue with your disruptive behaviour, you will be banned. Snappy (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


 * To add to what Snappy has said, Dylan - you are not the sole interpreter of what is and isn't the end of the economic downturn. The downturn did not end in 2013, because you say so.  We report on what reliable sources state, we do not get to publish our own opinions as facts and make editorial decisions (such as adding or deleting categories) to back up our argument.  Please edit in accordance with policy.  WP:NPOV and WP:V are two policies you definitely need to read up on.  There are many more... WP:CRYSTAL, WP:OWN WP:3RR and WP:CONSENSUS would also be worth a read.  If other editors - especially if multiple other editors - revert you, there's a reason.  Don't just re-revert.  Discuss your proposed changes. Listen to other editors.  Come to a consensus.  Accept that sometimes consensus won't agree with you, and live with it. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposal
The entries for the Post-2008 Irish economic downturn and the Post-2008 Irish banking crisis are about the same subject and should be in one article, titled Post-2008 Irish economic crisis. -The Gnome (talk) 18:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Oppose. A reading of just the first paragraph of Post-2008 Irish economic downturn makes it clear that although the banking crisis was a major contributory factor to the latter, there were others, and the banking crisis is just one element of the downturn. The 'Post-2008 Irish economic downturn' article is already quite lengthy (pointing to several additional main articles already) and both topics would be best served remaining separate, in my opinion. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Renaming request
I am requesting that this article is renamed 2008–14 Irish financial crisis as this is the period the financial crisis in Ireland happened. Thanks! --DylanMcKaneWiki (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose Really, Dylan? The article isn't about a "financial crisis", it's about the economic downturn. In case you'd missed it, that hasn't gone away, has it? Stop trying to peddle the Fine Gael party line, please, Wikipedia has a neutrality policy. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Same editor peddling same line. Please stop. Snappy (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

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Very poor article, requiring rewrite and focus/title
This article was built up over many years, by many people, with little bits, often trivia, added on piecemeal. Important analyses and references over the period, eg research papers from economic institutes (that correctly frame the issue), are barely mentionned.

The most obvious issue is that the article lacks focus, trying to cover too many issues, over too long a period.

This has made the article very hard to edit comprehensively ... and there have been no notable edits on the article since 2015.

Any title with "Post-" suggests some kind of permanent state afterwards, but the article is referring to events and conditions that pertained at a certain time. The many research papers on the issues from professional economic institutes  correctly frame the issues at stake and not beyond the wit of many Wikipedia editors to concentrate on such high quality sources.

The sister article "Post-2008 Irish banking crisis" is also very poor and a lot of overlap when a reference would suffice. The small article, Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008, is also poor (but thankfully short). It could maybe be renamed and become the focus of the 2008 banking crisis.

The problems start with the title. There was a banking crisis in 2008, solved instantly by a total guarantee (with a downturn at the time too). This which gave rise later to an Irish sovereign funding crisis that took off big time in 2010, and further complications for the economy. These are quite distinct and each merit an article.

The article is classifed as B  when it should be "C" or much worse. The subject is of major importance in the study of Ireland in the 21st century. It is also gives a very poor impression of Wikipedia. There are a ton of books on the subject, fantastic studies by professional economists in research institutes, and they are all I think cohesive, in contrast to this article.

My interest is in starting articles as Gaeilge on the Vicipéid and that is not helped by this mish-mash. TGcoa (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

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