Talk:Post-industrial music genres and related fusion genres/Archive 1

the creation of this article
I appreciate this mess being moved away from the main definition, but EBM and techno still are not industrial. You can write it in font size 6 buried under three links, it's still blatantly wrong and ought to be removed. Sanctum 07:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I feel this page has extremly useful information on it, but the title "industrial music subgenres" is obviously contentions for the same reasons i mentioned on the Talk:Industrial_music. while one option would be to move it to List of industrial music influenced genres or List of music genres influenced by industrial, i feel the content on the page has gone beyond what one would normally find on a List of page, so maybe moving it to Industrial influenced music or something similar and adding info (as Piecraft mentions) for Industrial rock and Industrial metal would be more appropriate? --MilkMiruku 09:26, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd mostly agree, as any "real" fan of a subgenre (I and techno, for example) could point out a whole new categorization system that could make just as much sense. For most of my life, I thought that "techno" was more of a blanket term that encompassed all of dance/house/etc, and included the poppier and rockier and trancier breeds of industrial. I do think, however, the article makes a good point of saying that this is by no means a definitive list, and maintains a solid chronology throughout. Despite disagreeing with the heirarchy in spots, I completely approve of all of the content of this article, if it were more of a "List of influenced genres". Gspawn 08:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that everyone keeps saying that certain subgenres are industrial or certain subgenres aren't? Shouldn't someone just define industrial music and then branch out from there? It seems no one agees on subgenres due to social politics and elitism. But it's also true that no one can decide where to start from. You have to work from the ground up. I don't think picking music apart and creating a new subgenre is really appropriate if all you are doing is singling out one meger aspect of a few bands' structures. Jazz is jazz, metal is metal, and therefore identifiable, but industrial is this Swiss cheese-like genre that no one can decide on because someone once coined the term 'EBM.'

Following Wikipedia's NPOV guideline, I think that the decision about whether EBM technically is or is not currently related to industrial has no place here. That argument should be taken to rec.music.industrial. After all, a consensus will never be reached as this debate has been going on for some ten or more odd years. Besides, there is still a substantial following in the "industrial music scene" that continue to associate body music with industrial (whether they be industrial music DJs, producers, record labels, reviewers), and as a result it really should be included here to ensure the article remains both accurate and complete. --SWCastNetwork 16:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

mentions
I believe a mention to Futurist music and musique concrete should be mentioned seeing as it was the origins of the avant-garde and experimental roots to Industrial music. Not to mention the fact that no one has yet mentioned Cyberpunk as a subgenre. I also agree with Sanctum, that Techno and EBM are not subgenres but more so stand alone genres which have been inspired or branched off from different arenas in the music melting pot of the late 70's and 80's including Hip Hop, Rock and Experimental music as a whole in general. There also is a complete lack of certain other important sunbgenres such as Industrial rock such as Nine Inch Nails, Filter, PIG as well as Industrial Metal such as Fear Factory. To be honest a lot of these subgenres seem to be completely off the scale and incorrect. I would put this article up for review. Piecraft 17:49, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * I would argue that Industrial Rock is a subgenre of Rock, not Industrial. I would also argue that Industrial Metal is a subgenre of Metal, and not Industrial. As for Cyberpunk -- no-one I know has ever used that term as a subgenre of industrial music. What bands/labels/etc are you referring to? Twiin 01:25, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * agreed on all points. i feel that, while, in relation to music, cyberpunk can be used as a descriptor for certain musical themes, there isn't any stand-alone or even definable cyberpunk genre per se. that seems to be the general consensus among others i've asked about it. --MilkMiruku 09:26, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * Twiin, I know that Re-Constriction would term their bands as "cyberpunk" back in the day (c.f. their Cyberpunk Fiction compilation). It's essentially coldwave bands that had pronounced punk aspects & additudes: 16 Volt, Diatribe, etc.  Rynne 16:29, 15 September 2005 (UTC)


 * "I would argue that Industrial Rock is a subgenre of Rock, not Industrial. I would also argue that Industrial Metal is a subgenre of Metal, and not Industrial." - I can sort of see how you arrived at that conclusion, but surely it varies? If one was to take Ministry as an example, The Land of Rape and Honey could be described as a mostly industrial album, as it has a noisy, chaotic sound based on samples & dense percussion whilst there are very few straightforward riff-based songs. The two albums following it are clearly more metallic in sound (although industrial noises. attitudes and production values remained, particularly on a Psalm 69 track, Corrosion). Needless to say, Ministry's sound has become more pronouncedly heavy metal in recent years, although this should in no way detract from their status as industrial pioneers-neither should the fact that countless non-industrial or at best, coldwave-lite acts cite them as influences. To use a vaguely relevant analogy, the fact that Killing Joke influenced Nirvana certainly doesn't qualify the former as a grunge band!


 * "Also, some bands such as Godflesh are truly baffling in that they create industrial sounds using the traditional metal instrumentation of guitars, drums and bass; similarly, a lot of industrial music is of a harsh, aggressive nature not unlike that of many metal bands. Stelios Bedrock 22:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

aggrotech/terrortech/torture tech/terror ebm
whatever you want to call it, some anon has come along and added a terrortech section. as there already exists an aggrotech(/terror ebm) article i've slightly reworded the addition. i have beeb planning to work the aggrotech article into the List of industrial music subgenres article but i have a feeling that it's just an evolution of Electro-industrial / elektro and was going to do some research before going ahead with anything. are elektro and aggrotech/terror ebm/terrortech/whatever related? and does anyone know if that's the same as "torture tech" which is a term i seem to recall some band or other tried to coin at some point? --MilkMiruku 09:44, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * You read my mind, man. I was just going to post the same suggestion.  I hadn't really heard of any of those subgenres before, so I did some quick searching and it seems that torturetech is pretty much elektro under a different name (see articles linking FLA to Torture Tech here and here, and this article which lumps them together in a not-very-flattering manner).  Aggrotech seems to have a lot of overlap with the "new school" bands mentioned on the EBM page, which suggests it should probably be a subheading on the main EBM article.  The given description of the genre,
 * "industrial music typified by somewhat harsh song structures, aggressive beats and lyrics of a militant, pessimistic or explicit nature. Typically, the vocals are distorted to sound hoarse, harsh and without tone. Artists also frequently use atonal melodic structures."
 * doesn't really express any notable difference from elektro. While we're at it, the Old-school EBM article doesn't contain information that's not already in the main EBM page, and I'd suggest it be merged in, too.   Rynne 16:03, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * yeah, merging Old-school EBM with EBM sounds a logical idea, but would you say elektro is an evolution of ebm or is it more a fusion of equal parts from different genres? the Electro-industrial / elektro paragraph refers to EBM but the closest that article gets to elektro is when it talks about new school ebm. should the article be expanded to specifically mention elektro or is it worth it having it's own article? also, the third rather large paragraph on the page sounds a bit muddled -- it mentions vnv and covenant but goes on to talk about old school ebm before returning to futurepop again. --MilkMiruku 11:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about the elektro side of industrial—aside from Skinny Puppy, I just have passing knowledge about most of the bands under that banner. Just looking at the originating bands, my gut feeling is that elektro isn't an evolution of EBM, simply because Skinny Puppy and Front 242 seem to have developed the respective genres simultaneously.  But as to whether they might have dovetailed together, which would suggest a combined article, I don't know enough about the genre conventions to say.  I'd defer to your judgement on that.  Rynne 12:29, 16 September 2005 (UTC)


 * why isn't Futurepop in this article? Pulseczar 23:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Cold Wave
Cold Wave was a term used in France, Belgium, Germany to describe the music of Siouxsie & The Banshees, Joy Division, KaS Product, The Cure, Cocteau Twins etc... Cold Wave is semi-similar to the term Dark Wave.

Look here: Transmission 81-89 The French Cold Wave (bottom)

and here: http://www.french-new-wave.com/news/GE.jpg

and now delete that stupid shit from this list...


 * maybe it has been used more than once? --MilkMiruku 01:39, 11 November 2005 (UTC)


 * hmm yeah... maybe we should create 5000 articles for one and the same term... the english wikipedia is really an useless wikipedia...full of fiction...


 * From my understanding, the usage of "cold wave" to describe a subset of Dark Wave/Goth never caught on in the English language. Though both terms are relatively specific, "coldwave" is used more frequently in English do describe a subset of industrial metal bands.  And I believe that in terms of language (though I'm not sure of this), that the more common usage in the native language of the subject has precedent: i.e., the English usage of "coldwave" has precedent over French/Belgian/German usages in the English Wikipedia.  --  Rynne 18:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * A man should look for what is and not what should be (Einstein). It seems you can add anything here, as long as contains a bit of synth / electronica. (Or whatever else NIN has supposedly done). (Sjöðar 11:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC))

The term 'coldwave' came from an industrial compilation called 'Coldwave Breaks' in 1995. It's a misnomer... industrial isn't Wave.


 * I thought the style was already being called coldwave before the compilation. Whichever, I'll agree that Coldwave Breaks is largely responsible for popularizing the term.  That being said, it stands that in English, "coldwave" is more commonly seen as referring to guitar-based industrial than the early-80s goth scene.  The "-wave" suffix doesn't strictly connotate a derivative of New Wave, just as the "-core" suffix doesn't mean a genre was directly derived from Hardcore punk. -- Rynne 14:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep, that's right, the term Cold Wave is older, but it isn't really Goth. Cold Wave is a term from the 80's in relation to New Wave (it means 'cold new wave', minimal electronics + moody guitars like the music of The Cure or Joy Division). And Coldwave came from this industrial compilation released in 1995. I've never heard the term Cold Wave/Coldwave in relation to Industrial Metal. Maybe we need an article to describe both terms, because the english wikipedia is an international wikipedia. ô.Ô
 * btw: What is the english term to describe the music of The Cure, Martin Dupont, Pink Turns Blue, Cocteau Twins or Asylum Party?


 * The Cure are classified new wave and goth rock (they single-handedly brought both genres into the pop culture). Cocteau Twins are classified dreampop and shoegazer (once again, they were mostly responsible for pioneering both such genres and bringing them to the mainstream). --SWCastNetwork 16:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I first came across the term "coldwave" from the compilation album of the same name, "Coldwave Breaks" (it was coined by 21st Century Records owner Don Blanchard). It wasn't too long afterwards I latched onto the already widespread definition: a fusion of industrial and metal. I think most people can recognize the distinction with the French-derived term. The two styles can still co-exist in their corresponding music cultures. --SWCastNetwork 17:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

headings
I took out the labels from the "First Wave" and "Third Wave" headings, because though Industrial Records and Ant-Zen are certainly representative labels, they don't begin to encompass everything that's under those headings. -- Rynne 00:56, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Dark Electro
Can anyone add the Dark electro genre to the list? I can't find it there. Notable artists were YelworC, Mortal Constraint and Placebo Effect. greets, --Menorrhea 22:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC) I've never heard "Dark electro" used as more than just a blanket term for any 3rd wave sub-genre (aggrotech, synthpop, powernoise). The bands you listed fit pretty comfortably under Industrial-techno.

New Age Music
Doesn't New Age Music belong here? It's electronic & should fit into this genre too.--Wikiphilia 17:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Newage is properly its own distinct top-level genre heading. While crossover styles exist in newage and ambient (and their respective subgenres), the similarities end there. I don't think it would be helpful to classify newage here given that there is already dispute about what correctly constitutes an industrial subgenre. --SWCastNetwork 16:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Industrial dance vs. new beat vs. EBM
I think that industrial dance needs to be separated out from EBM. In my experience industrial dance refers to a very specific offshoot of industrial that fused the club-house and electro-funk aesthetic of the late 80s and early 90s and frequently borrowed sound samples from news media and horror films and even other music recordings (in fact, by some rights, industrial dance was itself a style of house music). Notable acts were My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult, Die Warzau, Severed Heads, Meat Beat Manifesto, KMFDM (the early years), etc. Wax Trax was the primary record label to popularize this unique blend of alternative dance music, particularly through the release of so many DJ-friendly remix singles.

A more esoteric flavor of industrial dance emerged in Belgium during the late 80s known as new beat which was in many ways a direct hybrid with acid-house and EBM. It gained recognition mainly from Antler Subway Records. Legend has it that a DJ slowed down a 45RPM single to 33RPM, and the result was a more foreboding and physchedelic form of electronic dance music that took on instant appeal with clubgoers. Two well-known new beat acts were A Split Second and Lords of Acid.


 * Poor pacing mars My Life With The thrill Kill Kult show
 * Acid Over
 * New Beat history, Belgium
 * Veggie Beat Manifesto by David Stratton

--SWCastNetwork 19:24, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Revision
I revised the power electronics section. Let's keep this page clean please. Only the first few bands should be mentioned (the early british bands).. otherwise, it's a very long list. Same goes for labels. I also revised Death Industrial - "Death industrial can be described as having much of the same source sounds as power electronics, but used to create a deep atmospheric sound with some thematic similarity to doom metal or death metal"- this is a false statement. "Dark" and "violent" themes were previously present in early industrial during the 70s, before these styles of metal existed. Also removed reference to NON for the same reason. (Diaconu 11:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC))

Well now let's hold the bus there sonny Jim, Black Sabbath and their "dark imagery" predate industrial music by a few years, and while I'd agree BS is no death metal band, they were hugely influential on this whole "doom" lark. 84.69.3.99 22:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The dark imagery of Heavy Metal bands like Black Sabbath isn't in any way related to that of industrial music. Different background, different themes etc. Diaconu 18:48, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Sub-Genres vs. Fusion-Genres
Subgenres of Industrial music are:
 * Power Electronics / Noise Music
 * Dark Ambient / Ambient Industrial
 * Death Industrial
 * Martial Industrial

all the other genres are fusion genres or crossover genres. Industrial Metal is a fusion genre between Industrial music and Heavy metal, Electronic Body Music is a fusion genre between Industrial music and Electropunk, etc... They're not really sub-genres. --~Menorrhea 11:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Suicide commando = power noise ?
Hello, I think that Suicide commando is absolutely not power noise, but rather electro-industriel or aggrotech. If it is true, thank you to anyone to correct.

Thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.154.79.26 (talk) 18:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Adding a few genres...
Just wanted to check with you guys first before I go and do something that might get erased in a day if someone disagrees...

I think we need to add the genres Dark electro and Ambient industrial to this list, and I also think that the section for Industrial metal should be separate from the section for Industrial rock. (The difference being that Industrial metal is more Metal with industrial elements... In my opinion, anyway..)

And I also think that Power electronics, Avant-Garde industrial, and Dance industrial (all three of which are part of the first wave of industrial music) should have their own separate articles apart from Noise music and Industrial music, respectively.

I'd be glad to do these things myself, though admittedly my area of industrial knowledge is more in the second and third waves... K3V!N 18:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think Dark Electro (as a whole) qualifies as an industrial-related style. Power Electronics could use its own article I suppose, it would require some work though. Diaconu 14:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The complete third wave isn't really industrial-related. these genres are more techno-inspired or influenced by genres such as drum & bass or IDM. --~Menorrhea 17:42, 24 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's true. If it were up to me, i'd put that "third wave" stuff in a different article and just add a link to it under "See also". Diaconu 15:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

"Current state of Industrial"
I know that this has been argued back-and-forth between editors before, so I don't want to get into the old question if industrial still exists, per se. But, any claim like "Some artists and band members argue that there is no 'current state of industrial', and hold that industrial music ended with the demise of Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records." as in the article header just begs for verifiablity. Can someone give references clarifying whom these "artists and band members" are? Even better if it's a quote from one of the founders of the genre (e.g., members of Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire, etc). I think that'd really help the credibility of the article on the whole. -- rynne 15:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. A citation is badly needed.  If a citation isn't given soon, we should remove the claim.  Doctormatt 23:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay - I removed the claim. Doctormatt 17:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I like how the term aggrotech has been applied to a variety of groups who don't even describe their music as such. Furthermore, I like how the article indicates that these groups are "techno influenced" negating the originality of said groups. The only similarity likely between the groups mentioned and techno music is that they use similar gear and production techniques. Just because two groups use a 16 step drum machine and have a synth-line doesn't make them similar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.18.159.166 (talk) 15:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

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Ritual Musik
There's no section on ritual musik (also called tribal industrial), but it's a fairly new term. Ritual musik should be categorized as a fusion genre, as it incorporates elements of drum and bass, noise, world, and industrial. Example bands include This Morn' Omina and Juno Reactor. Some people would probably consider Juno Reactor to be more in the techno world than the industrial, but their signing to Metropolis records and their work on The Matrix soundtrack mean they are well-known in the industrial scene. Koifishkid (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

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mentalEscape & Grendel
Hello all,

I added mentalEscape & Grendel to the list. IMHO, they are EBM and Aggrotech, however, I am more than certain someone will disagree. Take a listen via their pages and draw your own conclusions; http://www.myspace.com/grendel & http://www.myspace.com/mentalescape

Also, reading over this discussion page is crazy. Many people are pretentious and they think they know it all. POST-Industrial is a key term here, so yes EBM and other styles are posts styles derived from Industrial. I really think its insane that people fight over this given the fact that some artists change the style of their music from and album to an album and sometimes from a song to song! How can you judge an artist that way? The Prodigy for example started out as an electro-drum n bass and transformed into something else later, is Prodigy now considered a DnB artist? Maybe all artists who fall under post industrial genres should simply go by that alone.

Redcardiff (talk) 14:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)redcardiff

Origin and validity of the term "Elektro"
I've never seen this alternate spelling of Electro used as a replacement for "electro-industrial"/ebm. Are there references to this? Perhaps it's a geographical thing? I've never heard it spoken (because it would sound no different than saying "electro") nor seen it on a flyer anywhere in the Western USA or Canada. Googling for "elektro" music shows nothing at all relevant, and would suggest a completely unrelated genre. If the use of this term isn't widespread, I think it should be removed from the article. With the propensity of some elitist genre purists and pigeonholers in this scene to needlessly segregate things that in practice are not, I'd like to make sure it has more relevance than someone inventing it for the sole purpose of distancing their own tastes from that of people that bother them ;)

Also, all of these bands are pretty much considered EBM. Yeah, I know "Front 242 is the only original EBM", but unless you're a stubborn old man that lives under a rock, that isn't the case anymore. Every DJ, promoter, and flyer bills this stuff as EBM, all the patrons and fans expect this offering when they are told they are getting EBM, and you'd be lucky to ever hear Front 242 these days, save the odd headhunter remix from time to time. The EBM section does make a bit of a reference to this, but I think it should be organized more clearly to reflect the currently accepted definition, rather than attempting to distance it from "pure ebm". Freqsh0 (talk) 22:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Matter of Opinion
I think that people arguing on what is and what is not industrial is all a matter of opinion, at the top if this page somebody claimed EBM was not industrial when in my mind it always was. Look up GOTHradio.com on Shoutcast and it happily plays industrial metal alongside EBM. It's only fair that this article lists everything influenced by the original industrial movement and what has come to resemble it, no matter how far it has come from it. This is an article on "Post-industrial", not "Industrial", so there's no need to be elitist about it all. 213.94.247.11 (talk) 22:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Page Name/Title
Is it just me, or does the name/title of the page seem way too long? I could see this easily being changed to "Post-Industrial Genres." I really don't see the need for "List of" or "and related fusion genres" since those are kind of implied. What do you guys think? Xe7al (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and renamed it since I had received no reply. Enjoy. Xe7al (talk) 04:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Coil
How can they be under Industrial Movement (1975-1981) when they didn't exist until 1982? Though I'm not sure where I'd put them since they varied so much from song to song/album to album. Of course most bands are hard to pigeonhole in a specific genre. I used to tag them "experimental" then just "industrial" then "dark ambient"...now I've just gone back to the general "industrial". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elmyr (talk • contribs) 00:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)