Talk:Post-punk

Whole Article Needs to Be Re-written with Actual Facts
This is ridiculous. This article is completely made up. There was never a "post-punk" movement. There certainly was a progression between simple punk rock and artists expressing themselves, but no one ever called themselves post punk. This is simply a descriptive term that someone made up into a movement.


 * I agree, Mr. or Ms. or non-binary Anonymous. I always thought it was silly.  I bought an album years ago where the record store had a label on it saying it was "post-punk industrial hip-hop" or some such nonsense.  However, it is a term that is and has been out there, so if some feel that it's a real form of music then they are free to make that argument I suppose.  Also, they seem to believe it's a real thing, so... RRskaReb  talk 05:17, 15 September 2019 (UTC)


 * If you think post-punk is a made-up term, I have bad news for you about how other genre labels are created. Locust Valley (talk) 08:34, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

A rock music movement?
I have to question the opening line that asserts this was a rock music movement. Simon Reynolds asserts that the movement was created by acts that disagreed with Punk Rock's back to basics style. John Lydon and others used to assert that they were post rock and criticized "rockists". The movement as it broadened did encompass rock and that early criticism was heard less and less often as time wore on. But I do think the opening line should be reexamined.Edkollin (talk) 15:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Dubious claim that New Romanticism is a directive of Post Punk in infobox
The two genres were complete opposite reaction to punk. New Romantic was dress up and synthpop. Post Punk was antipop and with the exception of the goths dressed down. And the goths played music was downbeat New Romanticism was positive. Edkollin (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Since in three weeks no arguments have been made for this I am deleting it. Edkollin (talk) 20:18, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed this. I'd just like to say that the connection probably was made through mostly earlier New Romantic-labeled acts; e.g Japan, Adam & the Ants, Classix Nouveaux, early Ultravox, Gary Numan/Tubeway Army, John Foxx, early Human League, Soft Cell, The Associates, B-Movie, China Crisis and Visage--who were "darker" and very post-punk affiliated. In fact I'm not sure I would simplify all of New Romanticism as upbeat synthpop behind a heading of high fashion. That may have became the case by 1984 or 85 or so when NRs and synthpop music went more commercialized. The earlier years of New Romanticism, however, consisted of more avant-garde musical touches, images and lyrics that were far more somber, occasional political themes, often cerebral or surreal lyrics, or even somewhat punky energy (Adam & the Ants, early U-Vox and TW Army). Plus, some of the acts early on retained plenty of guitar-orientation. Even Duran Duran on their debut album was on the post-punk side, dark at times with plenty of guitar/bass alongside the keyboards (they've even come to be praised for their bass work over the years). Another point is that New Romantics weren't just glamorous fashionistas but some acts like Gary Numan lended instead toward a more dark image inspired by dystopian sci-fi. Both of these NR themes however, did derive from the singular source of New Romantic godfather David Bowie (who influenced post-punk and Goth as well). Even later on as NRism became more superficial and Pop, the songs were not always that upbeat (well, they could sound upbeat but not actually have the most happy lyricals-e.g. Take On Me, Poison Arrow, Do You Really Want to Hurt Me). Theburning25 (talk) 10:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The police
 * the police
 * The police 2A01:CB01:1021:4E82:0:52:115F:4401 (talk) 04:20, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Roots
I believe that the names of the Berlin Trilogy albums by David Bowie and the The Idiot by Iggy Pop should be mentioned as a major influence on post-punk as it really was the case especially in the latter case.--Milosppf (talk) 14:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * It's difficult to effectively source such an assertion. If you could find maybe a couple of references to noted post punk artists mentioning the albums in interviews it would certainly help. Wwwhatsup (talk) 17:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * If you check The Idiot Wikipedia article in the legacy and covers sections you might find quite a few remarks on the album and an abundance of cover versions of the songs from the album by post-punk acts.--Milosppf (talk) 13:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of New Music section
That section was merged in from another article. It was the incorrect thing to do on several fronts. The very reliable sources described New Music both as a separate entity and important part of 1980s music scene. Another words it was easily notable enough for its own Wikipedia article and never should have been deleted for whatever purpose. The reliable sources never said new music was post punk music. It said a lot of it came from post punk. That is not the same as being a sub genre or part of post punk music. The reliable sources also were clear that plenty of New Music came from areas that were not post punk. New Music was a pop music post punk was anti that.

While the merging of the articles was the incorrect thing to do as a lot of it did come from post punk it so it should have a place in this article

The New Music material has been deleted in this article and as many links as I can remember changed to the reconstituted New Music Article. I will add to the See also section of this article the reconstituted New Music article. I will wait to see if an attempt is made to merge the newly reconstituted New Music article into this article without notice or consensus. If no new merger attempts are made I will add new music as a sub section that will look similar to the post punk revival sub section. Edkollin (talk) 22:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Dark
I have found post punk to have a rather dark sound. Does anyone else notice this? AmericanLeMans (talk) 22:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Most of the "dark" music (punk-emanated) of the early 80s did fall into the post-punk genre, but post-punk certainly doesn't have to sound dark as a matter of requirement. I present Gang of Four, Talking Heads, Josef K, The Fall, Wire and The Feelies as proof of this. Theburning25 (talk) 05:13, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Diverse Characteristics
I'm actually a little surprised their isn't a characteristics section for this article. Surely because post-punk is both a eclectic and diverse sound it would be important to try and highlight aesthetics within in? Jonjonjohny (talk) 21:42, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. At the time, in terms of  genre, it was more literally constrained/defined by  genus (approach, ethos, production, etc.), than by resulting style(s).  Subsequently, some revivers/followers/fans have (variously) cherry-picked post-punk to create their, more stylistically constrained, conception of 'post-punk'.  Styles (and influences) of the post-punk genus are not adequately described – nor, perhaps, is the evolution of retrospective post-punk boundaries/definitions.  – Ian, DjScrawl (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Post-punk has a diversity assertion, pitched at 1982 (where its been tagged with an unelaborated 'why?'). This would be an early point where an analysis might be made (from genre of relevant prior albums) – however, a few years later would be more representative (as some of the earlier 'derivative forms' remained incubated/fluid within the post-punk scene for several more years).  – Ian, DjScrawl (talk) 09:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Industrial music
This has to stop. There is only one INCOMPLETE reference in the article. I assume it belongs to the book The Sex Revolts: Gender, Rebellion, and Rock 'n' Roll? The book doesn't even explain why Reynolds calls Industrial music a 'post-punk' genre. It looks more like the arbitrary assumption of the author. No primary sources, no footnotes... nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.16.144 (talk) 10:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
 * It never stops. Even a partial reference is an improvement over most music edits. The editor is always right is assumption with music articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.90.53.33 (talk) 05:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

There are some new references. But again... None of these sources seem to explain why Industrial music is considered a "Post-punk genre". Mick Middles took it obviously from Reynolds. And Reynolds is copying his own mistakes from book to book? Aren't there any other publications? He seems to be the only author who calls Industrial bands 'Post-punk'. And that cannot be the mainstay of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.29.90 (talk) 08:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

oxford comma
Because there is a lot of information fit into a compact lead and several sequential clauses, it seems like a helpful idea to include commas to clarify these differing clauses and ensure a clearer communication of the content. Do you have a compelling reason for removing them? The WP:COMMA guideline doesn't favor either, but simply instructs us to use whichever is more clear while remaining consistent. User:K999 (talk) 22:26, 7 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm a journalist and publicist, so I use AP Stylebook, not MLA. AP is the standard across the internet for journalism. In my personal view, it's better, and Oxford commas are archaic and pretentious, but that's not relevant. What is relevant is that WP:COMMA does indeed favor consistency, and on Wikipedia, is is generally considered that if there are competing styles that are both valid, you stick with what the article began with. Your use of Oxfords renders the dozens of other usages in the article inconsistent, so you should therefore respect the article's prior style and keep it consistent. If newspapers and news sites can manage phrasing and clauses without Oxfords, i think it's reasonable to assume you can as well.Greg Fasolino (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Hey User:Greg Fasolino, question about the removal of multipled wikipedia links in the article: is that a wikipedia guideline—only one link per thing per page—or just a case-by-case decision? I assumed subjects in the body of the article that may only have been mentioned briefly in the lead warranted another link in a more informational context. I'm thinking specifically about those discussed in the body without links, due to their being mentioned in the lead—that seemed a bit lacking to me. Just wondering. Perhaps it'd be better to remove the specifics from the lead? etc. User:K999 (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Generally speaking, they should be used sparingly and mostly that means once per article. Many editors here don't count the lead in that. I do but I recognize others do not, so if you want to add back a second link for the items in the lead, I will not revert it. They definitely should not be linked twice in the body, though (as a number of these I culled down were). Greg Fasolino (talk) 20:00, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Predating punk
This new edit was problematic: "The early post-punk vanguard included groups such as Siouxsie and the Banshees, Public Image Ltd, Joy Division, Talking Heads, and Gang of Four, as well as groups that predated the punk movement, such as Pere Ubu and Throbbing Gristle." This statement does not make much factual sense, as Pere Ubu began in 1975 and TG in 1976. Compare to the "vanguard" bands listed, and there is really no difference, as two of them formed the same time as Ubu and TG: Banshees are 1976, Talking Heads are 1975. If you want to correctly cite bands that formed way earlier than punk, and were included within post-punk, you would instead need to look at say, Suicide (1970), Television (1973) or the Residents (1974).Greg Fasolino (talk) 18:02, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I think the sentence should be junked considering the number of bands who could potentially be listed. Whoever constitutes the "post-punk vanguard" depends entirely on who you ask. It's not meaningful to cite specific artists if nobody can even form a consensus on who belongs and who doesn't.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 21:05, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I disagree. The bands listed there (though I would definitely re-add Wire) were the first to be given the post-punk label and were always considered the initial bands that began the genre. The issue isnt with the "vanguard" part; it only gets more contentious when referring to the "groups that predated the punk movement" part.Greg Fasolino (talk) 21:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)


 * But there were dozens of post-punk bands that achieved a sizable following in 1975–79, not just these 11. I'm sure the list can be doubled or tripled if I searched through enough sources. What about This Heat, Adam and the Ants, Echo & the Bunnymen, the Feelies, the Monochrome Set, the Raincoats ... ? All formed between 1976–78 and all have been called "post-punk".--Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:30, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

It's time to stop mixing with chronology and respect wp:lead. What matters is the first time a band gave a major concert and played a radio session and was recognized as post-punk by the press. I agree with Greg Fasolino and I would also withdraw this sentence "Despite the term's chronological prefix, some of its groups predated punk rock" as it is not useful in the lead.Woovee (talk) 15:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I really doubt that all members of the music press gathered one day in 1978 and said "from now on we shall call Joy Division 'post-punk'!" It's more like somebody began prescribing a name ("post-punk") for a style of punk rock some bands had been pursuing for a while. We shouldn't be deciding who is in the "post-punk vanguard" without sources that actually talks about who populates that club. Google "most important post-punk bands" and try to find an authoritative source. --Ilovetopaint (talk) 04:59, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * If sources are included in the lead which is rather unusual, then a quote from Heylin is required for chronology. Woovee (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

2017
, could you stop using a tool on this article: you're invited to check out each edit made by other users before reverting all their contributions. Woovee (talk) 02:42, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The following books do not specifically cover post-punk and are more biographies/hagiographies of bands. Therefore, they are relevant at the articles about those artists.
 * Cateforis, Theo (2011). Are We Not New Wave: Modern Pop at the Turn of the 1980s. University of Michigan Press. ISBN 978-0-472-03470-3.
 * Gittins, Ian (2004). Talking Heads: Once in a Lifetime : the Stories Behind Every Song. Hal Leonard. ISBN 978-0-634-08033-3.
 * Lester, Paul (2009). Gang of Four: Damaged Gods. Omnibus Press. ISBN 978-0-85712-020-5.
 * Kootnikoff, David (2010). U2: A Musical Biography. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 978-0-313-36523-2.
 * Palacios, Julian (2010). Syd Barrett & Pink Floyd: Dark Globe. Plexus. ISBN 978-0-85965-431-9.

The following book is not mentioned as a source, it doesn't cover post-punk as a genre. Its presence is not necessary either at this article.
 * Reynolds, Simon (1996). The Sex Revolts: Gender, Rebellion, and Rock 'n' Roll. Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0674802735.

Woovee (talk) 02:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Ummm what? Just because it doesn't have "post punk" in the title doesn't mean it isn't appropriate for this article. That's not how WP:BIASED works. You need to cite specific issues with the claims they suggest. And if Cateforis' book is a "hagiography" of new wave, then doesn't the same principle apply to every book about post-punk? If we can't use books about post-punk, and we can't use books that mention post-punk, then what can we use? Just articles about Siouxsie and the Banshees from the prestigious louderthanwar.com? --Ilovetopaint (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Some sort of help is needed with the second paragraph of the lead
Someone, in March 2019, placed a copy edit tag in the second paragraph of the lead, with the reason: "integrating the information from the footnote's sources into the article's body (see earlier revisions)". This is not a job for a copy editor. It's a job for someone who is familiar with the topic and is willing to understand the meaning of this suggestion and then perform the necessary research to implement it. I have remove the copy edit template from the article, since the prose reads fine, and I am placing its content here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:36, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

The B-52s
They were conspicuously absent in the list of “vanguard” bands. I take it that is because they were not in a particular book. Well I added them and provided 3 sources documenting that their first 2 albums were important early post punk recordings. Someone is edit warring over it. The last time they were removed (s)he actually left the 3 sources, but removed the band! Keithramone33 (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know if they were relevant or if they are "post-punk enough". However, I think they should be kept in the article unless someone with more (verifiable) knowledge than me can explain why they should be removed here in the talk page. BernardoSulzbach (talk) 01:49, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

David Bowie and Iggy Pop
I'm surprised to see practically no mention of both David Bowie's Low and Iggy Pop's The Idiot. Based on further research I've done (which is now present in both of those articles), both of these records are considered very influential on the post-punk genre. Bowie and Pop's biographers have noted its influence on bands like Joy Division (AllMusic even states it). Hell, Joy Division literally named themselves after a Low track, tried their best to imitate Low's drum sound on  An Ideal for Living, and Ian Curtis hanged himself with The Idiot playing on his turntable. Point is, both of these records need to be mentioned in the article. Even Siouxsie Sioux acknowledged the influence of The Idiot on the Banshees at one point. – zmbro (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I do agree that these albums should be mentioned, the page for the Idiot even mentions its influence on industrial and post-punk, I think a couple sources could be found to get that album added. Not too sure about Low but I don't doubt that it influenced post-punk too. Brian Eno are David Bowie are already mentioned on the article so that might not be needed. Aradicus77 (talk) 10:38, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

"Credit for the first post-punk record is disputed"
The article totally forgets Alternative TV, which made the first British true post punk Album, The Image Has Cracked. Considering some of the context on the album, it can be considered a seminal transitional record. Released May 1978. 212.97.250.73 (talk) 21:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Ideas from art and politics, including critical theory?!
How in the world does critical theory play a role in the pseudo genre of “post-punk”? 108.56.193.206 (talk) 15:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Post punk revival
I believe the recent resurgence of the movement should be mentioned in the lead. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:F03E:AC3:C90F:6199 (talk) 17:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Krautrock and Sparks
I've added a forerunners section that mentions the influence the glam rock band Sparks had on the genre, as well as krautrock and the works of Brian Eno, David Bowie and the Red Krayola. Aradicus77 (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

"Post-punk metal" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Post-punk_metal&redirect=no Post-punk metal] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. FMSky (talk) 13:52, 31 March 2024 (UTC)