Talk:Postal counties of the United Kingdom/Archive 1

BBC News item
For an example of current Royal Mail usage of the county boundaries, take a look at this list, released through BBC News, of disrupted areas in the last postal strike.  I've undone the mass deletion because the new text was very POV. Whilst the current Royal Mail policy may be in place, it has not filtered through in many areas - many organisations and individuals still include the county line as a matter of course. A lot of online sites will not process an order without an entry in the county box (which can lead to the notion of "London, London"!). And the policy changeover was only 8 years ago (and even then not very well flagged) - many people still instinctively use the county on their postal address as the county they live in, regardless of what set of administrative boundaries are used this week. Timrollpickering 14:56, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with instinctively using the county on their postal address, in fact so long as it's the right one it helps to re-inforce the fact that traditional counties still exist. What I object to is getting things through the mail, or using online address validators that have old administrative areas on them (that only existed for 22 years) instead of my traditional county. In this regard, it's no longer the Royal Mail's fault (although they created this mess in the first place) - it's the resellers of PAF data that re-include the nonsensical postal counties in their products. We should be lobbying them! Owain 15:25, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Former postal counties at 1974
Prior to their abolition, the postal counties appear to have been the 1974 counties, except that


 * Greater Manchester remained split between Lancashire, Cheshire. (Hmm, where was Saddleworth postally?)


 * Greater London not adopted, instead it continued to be split between
 * London postal district
 * Middlesex
 * Kent
 * Essex
 * Hertfordshire
 * Surrey

But the following _were_ adopted


 * Avon
 * Cleveland
 * Cumbria
 * Humberside
 * Merseyside
 * South Yorkshire
 * North Yorkshire
 * Tyne and Wear
 * West Midlands
 * West Yorkshire

In Wales it followed the local government reform.

Obviously there were many border differences

Recent Changes & PO Archive
Thanks to Mrsteviec for the recent improvements.

One section that's still not quite right is the Popular Usage section. I remember an official Post Office leaflet from 1974ish that said that postal counties were not needed for places like Hereford and Reading. I'd like to have the complete list and could probably reconstruct the post towns as counties part but not the large towns part.

I have been looking on the PO Museum and Archive site for the leaflet but the nearest I can find is Post Office Postal Services information sheets relating to effects of the Local Government Act 1974 on postal addressing. If that link doesn't work, search this page for Finding No = POST 17/273.

I'm in Northern Ireland so it's not too handy to pop into the Archive in London to see if the sheets or something like the leaflet I remember are available. The record for the sheets does say "AccessStatus Not Yet Opened" so they might not be available anyway. There is an e-mail address on the site for enquires if anyone is interested enough to follow this up. --Cavrdg 21:41, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Many thanks. I've changed the wording to reflect that the direction came from Royal Mail rather than users. It would be great to include a full list of these places. MRSC 07:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Coventry
Morwen wrote: "Coventry remained within the postal county of Warwickshire, whilst Birmingham became part of the postal county of West Midlands". Are you sure? I just entered "CV1 1AA" into http://www.capscan.co.uk/mcd5demo.htm and it came back with: Traditional County     WARWICKSHIRE Administrative County  COVENTRY Postal County          W MIDLANDS Owain 14:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, since that has the administrative county line wrong, why should we trust any of it? ;) I shall try to find a source for it.  Until then I shall take it out. Morwen - Talk 14:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, although it must be noted that the Royal Mail don't acknowledge the existence of 'administrative counties with no county councils' such as West Midlands or Berkshire - the field contains the top level administrative area in much the same way as the ISO 3166-2:GB code does. Owain 14:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The administrative county isn't wrong. The City of Coventry is a Unitary Authority (for all practical purposes it is a top-level authority, albeit one that used to form part of a metropolitan county which has since had its nominal 'county council' abolished). Thus Coventry is in Coventry for those people who want to use top-level administrative areas as a basis for geography. The Royal Mail doesn't list ceremonial counties because, like most people, it thinks they are pretty irrelevant. 80.255 21:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Confusingly, the metropolitan counties (and Berkshire) are administrative counties even though they don't have county councils. --Cavrdg 06:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Which is another example of the messed-up local government situation we find ourselves in. These are all relics of the creaky old Local Government Act 1972. Its about time this was repealed and replaced with something fresher. Milton Keynes is a county? Bah! Berkshire is an administrative county without any administration? Bah! Owain 10:19, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * From memory when the Act abolishing Berkshire County Council was passed I happened to be in the public gallery of the Commons for John Gummer's introduction to one of the stages. He seemed to be falling over backwards to emphasise that although the council was being abolished "the royal county of Berkshire" was not and that the Lord Liutenant would still have a job. I suspect this was primarily a sop to make it clear to sentiment that "Berkshire" was not being "abolished" but it reflects the general mess. Timrollpickering 12:06, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's what he said:
 * "The second area is Berkshire. Much is made of the fact that it is the only county council of an historic county that is being abolished as a result of the local government review. We are also told that this means the end of the royal county of Berkshire. I want to put an end to that claim immediately. This order means the end of Berkshire county council, but not of the royal county of Berkshire. After all, it is the county that is royal, not the county council. Berkshire itself is not touched. For example, there will still be a Lord Lieutenant of Berkshire, and I have no doubt that people who live in the county will refer to themselves as coming from Berkshire."


 * Also note his use of the present tense when refering to the historic county. Saying that "After all, it is the county that is royal, not the county council" is also interesting. Which county is he refering to? It can only be the traditional county - i.e. the county that wasn't abolished in 1889. Berkshire was, after all, 'Royal' since before 1889, whereas the County Council has never been 'Royal'. He says that Berkshire itself is not touched - having just abolished the administrative area, the thing that we're meant to refer to as 'Berkshire' according to wikipedia policy... 80.255 12:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think he is using "historic county" in the same way you are, you will note that he refers to Berkshire County Council, which did not cover Vale of White Horse, as "the county council of an historic county". Morwen - Talk 12:56, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe so, but the "royal" epithet was assigned to Berkshire before 1974, and therefore includes the Vale of White Horse. If he has no doubt that "people who live in the county will refer to themselves as coming from Berkshire" then it's just another indication that the government sees a detachment of local identity from administrative areas. Owain 13:19, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I think he was going out of his way to say that the abolition of a local government authority is not the same thing as redrawing the map and saying that Berkshire does not exist (whatever that would mean).


 * By the way has anyone checked the | Wiktionary defition of "county" to see that it actually fits with Wikipedia policy? Timrollpickering 13:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't recall anything special about Coventry. It's on the list of large towns that didn't need a county so it would seem odd for the PO to specify a non-standard one as well.  --Cavrdg 14:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I distinctly remember reading somewhere that Coventry, Warwickshire and Southport, Lancashire were both the preferred usages. I will consult my books when I get home.  (I have several about the 1970s local government reform, which might have mentioned this, so isn't just something off a website.)  Morwen - Talk 14:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Scotland
I've moved this from the page as some are very dubious e.g. City of Edinburgh - that was post town that did not require a postal county - not a postal county itself. Will try and get a verified list. MRSC 10:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Aberdeenshire Angus Argyll and Bute Ayrshire and Arran Banffshire Berwickshire Caithness City of Aberdeen City of Dundee City of Edinburgh City of Glasgow Clackmannan Dumfries Dunbartonshire East Lothian Fife Inverness Kincardineshire Lanarkshire Midlothian Moray Nairn Orkney Perth and Kinross Renfrewshire Ross and Cromarty Roxburgh, Ettrick and Lauderdale Shetland Stirling and Falkirk Sutherland The Stewartry of Kirkcudbright Tweeddale West Lothian Western Isles Wigtown


 * That list is obviously bogus - it is the list of Lieutenancy areas from the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973, not a list of postal counties. In any case the Act didn't come into force until 1975 anyway! Owain 09:31, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

I have used to construct a list for Scotland. Its odd that the Post Office still had a list of all the English & Welsh ones but not the Scottish. The islands were each a postal county according to this link. So that part is still missing. I will try and find a list of the islands that were definitely postal counties... MRSC 07:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi. This is a list I found on a leaflet issued by Royal Mail leaflet issued in the 1980s:

Hope this helps, Lozleader 16:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Isle of Arran
 * Isle of Barra
 * Isle of Benbecula
 * Isle of Bute
 * Isle of Canna
 * Isle of Coll
 * Isle of Colonsay
 * Isle of Cumbrae
 * Isle of Eigg
 * Isle of Gigha
 * Isle of Harris
 * Isle of Islay
 * Isle of Iona
 * Isle of Jura
 * Isle of Lewis
 * Isle of Mull
 * Isle of North Uist
 * Isle of Rum
 * Isle of Scalpay
 * Isle of Skye
 * Isle of South Uist
 * Isle of Tiree

New tables
Isn't the "coverage notes" column a bit redundant? As has previously been explained postal counties could cross adjacent administrative counties, so for example all postal counties could have a "Covered part of..." &lt;insert adjacent administrative county here&gt;. Owain (talk) 13:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Fragments and detached parts
So, it turns out that the Salford and Sale post towns are enclaves within the Manchester post town. Was the postal county for Sale 'Cheshire', then, making it an enclave of Cheshire postal county in Lancashire postal county? If so that is probably weird enough to worth noting (as would be other enclaves, if we found them : I suppose the detached part of Middlesex also).

(Apart from this I wonder if there are other examples of post towns being enclaves of other post towns - even when differing counties aren't involved. Bootle might possibly be one, although it faces the coast). Morwen - Talk 17:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Erith post town covers DA8 and DA18 with Belvedere (DA17) completely separating the two. The two Bootle geographic districts (L20 and L30) share a common boundary (L69 and L70 non-geographic are shared with Liverpool post town). MRSC 18:51, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It appears that the Stansted, Essex (CM24) post town was entirely surrounded by the Bishop's Stortford, Herts. post town (CM22 and CM23), which gave the Essex postal county an exclave in Hertfordshire. I'm intrigued to know if there are many more... MRSC • Talk 08:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe you sussed this out already, but i don't believe Sale was an enclave: looking in a postcode atlas the southern boundary of M33 (Sale)adjoins WA14 and WA15 which are Altrincham.Lozleader 09:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Postal counties mess
This is partly explained by Corby, M., The postal business, 1969-79, (1979). The planned modernisation was still not in place by 1976 and the Post Office had been in financial chaos from the 1960s due to a 11% increase in delivery points (addresses) but a comparable drop in post volume. So it became more expensive to deliver less business. The boundary changes of 1965/1974/1975 would all have caught the Post Office at a bad time, either in financial chaos or while still trying to get to grips with modernisation. MRSC 11:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Move
Shall we undisambiguate and move this to postal county? are there any other types of postal counties? Morwen - Talk 08:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. I doubt it. MRSC 09:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Administrative county
Does the PAF really contain "West Berkshire" in the administrative county field? (I ask because the non-metropolitan county of Berkshire exists). Morwen - Talk 22:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Assuming is using alias data (which I think is likely as it is using the same field names as the Royal Mail PAF/Alias file documentation), then yes. It seems likely the 'traditional' and 'administrative' data was only added in 2000 (at least that is implied in the documentation). Remembering this is purely for the purposes of eliminating postally-not-required details added by users, the Royal Mail is probably adopting its own definition of 'administrative county' to catch anything else a user might add. Berkshire would already be held in the 'traditional' and 'former postal' field. MRSC • Talk 23:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Postal 'states'
It appears this situation is/was not unique to the UK. According to the article Kentucky Bend, this area of Kentucky has a postal address of Tiptonville, Tennessee. MRSC • Talk 16:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Changes for Rutland
I have discovered the mechanics of the creation of the new former postal county of Rutland from part of Leicestershire in January 2008. This will be achieved by the following:

LE16 Sector 8 crosses the Leicestershire/Rutland/Northamptonshire boundary, so this will create some new anomalies:


 * MARKET HARBOROUGH will become the only UK post town split between two former postal counties
 * LE16 will become the only UK postcode district split between two former postal counties
 * Rutland localities in PE9 (Belmesthorpe, Essendine) are not mentioned so I assume remain part of the Lincolnshire postal county.

LE15 possibly extends into neighbouring counties but all addresses in that area would be "OAKHAM, Rutland", which is pretty much what would be expected in the existing arrangement. MRSC • Talk 13:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This will not be the only postcode district split between postal counties. It appears Royal Mail made a similar concession for IP21 4 and IP21 5 which are both split ("shared sectors") between DISS, Norfolk and EYE, Suffolk. It looks like their policy is really "we won't consider changes, unless you complain loudly enough". MRSC • Talk 11:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Other campaigns
Might be worth organising the various campaigns into a section.

As Royal Mail let one through, they may have to reconsider others. MRSC • Talk 13:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ilford - Essex > London
 * West Heath - London > Kent
 * Seaton Delaval Tyne and Wear > Northumberland
 * Avon > Somerset / Gloucestershire

Another one:


 * Dyfed > Pembrokeshire/Ceredigion/Carmarthenshire

Interesting debate on the issue. MRSC (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)