Talk:Potnia Theron/Archive 1

Comments
Although I don't have time to add to this article, I would like to mention that Nanno Marinatos, an academic expert on Minoan religion, has fairly well proved that the Minoans had no Mistress of Animals. The Mistress of Animals was a later occurrence in the ancient Aegean/Mediterranean, was usually portrayed as dominating animals, and was often portrayed totally naked. She was a later phenomenon, as Marinatos proves in her latest book, The Goddess and the Warrior: The Naked Goddess and Mistress of Animals in Early Greek Religion (London: Routledge Classical Monograph, 2000). The fact that "Potnia" is a Mycenaean word makes me think that it was brought in by the Mcyeneans after 1450 BCE, and that it might have nothing to do with pre-1450 BCE Minoan religion.

Also, I don't know what's happened on this site, but I am going to erase the only comment here at the moment, which has some fairly ugly and obscene language in it. Athana 23:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Evidence?
There are no real cites for specific information here, and it largely looks like a disjointed mess assembled to look like evidence for a 'Great Goddess' concept through weight of largely irrelevant details.

Primarily, we need evidence that either a) genuine Ancient Greeks *ever* used the title potnia theron to apply to anyone but Artemis; b) regardless of actual Ancient Greek usage, the term has enough currency in modern scholarship to have its own article. If this is the case, the article needs to say that this use doesn't reflect any known ancient usage.

Without that, we might as well just make this a redirect to Artemis.

'''Specific problems: ''' 'Potnia Theron (Ἡ Πότνια Θηρῶν, "Mistress of the Animals") is an ancient title of the Minoan Goddess' etc. And the evidence is? The Walter Burkett quote doesn't actually mention potnia theron, making it irrelevant to both this statement and this article in general.

The next two paragraphs are mostly good, though the connection of Aphrodite's animals with the title potnia theron needs a cite, otherwise it's WP:SYNTH (and fairly questionable anyway -- an association with mating animals is pretty natural for a goddes of (among other things) fertility and sexuality, so by itself it isn't really demonstrative of any link with Artemis' animals).

Minoan seal stuff -- how do we know this actually has anything to do with potnia theron? Lions are a very common symbol of power, their appearance in no way demonstrates an association with animals in general.

"Whatever Minoans may have actually called her, this is one form of Potnia, the Mistress. " a) needs a cite. b) Potnia is a pretty basic title, needs a cite to relate this to the specific title potnia theron.

Random comments on stuff too early to have much evidence -- really needs cites. 'Vague but tantalizing' = 'it sounds cool, but there's no real evidence'.

a-ta-na-po-ti-ni-ja / Athana potnia -- so what? Potnia is a rather generic title, this does not in any way suggest potnia theron.

Orthia - needs evidence for an actual connection to potnia theron.

Vultur (talk) 04:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Cherry picking
Note the quote ""No Greek scholar could read the first word without dividing it Athana potnia 'Mistress Athena,' almost echoing the Homeric form: potni(a) Athenaie," ? Chadwick's next sentence is "Yet whether this is really the right interpretation is still in doubt, as will become clear when we discuss Potnia in more detail." This is exactly what we don't need in our articles, selective quoting. Dougweller (talk) 11:43, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Wow, I didn't have that source.
 * Also, what does 'Athana potnia' have to do with 'potnia theron'? This article is not "The use of 'potnia' as a title for Greek divinities".
 * When I have time I will look through scholarly sources trying to find out if 'potnia theron' is an agreed-on scholarly term for this sort of figure (that is, if it has a meaning in scholarship separate from how the ancient Greeks themselves used it.) Vultur (talk) 05:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, this is much improved. I think the extreme shakiness of the idea that 'all these goddesses with animals are really the same thing' is under-emphasized... but if it's infected the sources, what can we do? Vultur (talk) 05:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)