Talk:Poutine/Archive 5

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Similar dishes
The "similar dishes" section looks to me like original research. There's nothing wrong with it per se (it has references and all that) but I'm just wondering why it's in this article? I don't see any indication that these other fries-and-cheese dishes have any culinary association with poutine: we seem to be inventing the association in the article. Is it of encyclopedic value? Our featured article gumbo doesn't list other types of beef and vegetable stews, for example. I think the section should be removed entirely. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:33, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

RfC, take 2: Help us choose a new lead
Out of the following proposed leads, which one should be used as the lead of this article? dragfyre_ ʞןɐʇ c 19:35, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Feel free to move the end date to whenever you like if you disagree with the time limit. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  04:58, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

''Note: Italics in this proposal signal an optional sentence which could be included or excluded from the final version. State if you want to keep or remove the optional sentence in your vote.''

Proposal comparison
Here are some links to help you compare any two proposals:

Compare two proposals: 1::2, 1::3, 1::4, 1::5, 2::3, 2::4, 2::5, 3::4, 3::5, 4::5.

For fully rendered, side-by-side comparisons of two or more proposals, go here.

Survey for RfC 2
''Please indicate which of the proposals you Support. You may support more than one proposal. Please do not vote to oppose proposals. If you wish to modify a proposal or add a new one, or if you wish to make any other comments, please comment under the "Discussion" heading below.''

Proposal 1

 * 1) Support as proposer, per my comments in the exhaustive debate above. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:56, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Support Alaney2k (talk) 02:01, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) Support without too much overlinking and the accents, this is in English. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 03:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 4) Support dragfyre_ ʞןɐʇ c 16:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 2

 * 1) Support. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  04:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 3

 * 1) Support. you can vote for your own proposal, you know :). --  EzekielT  '' Talk  04:27, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 4

 * 1) Support for the sake of compromise, although it would be better to just write Quebecois dish in the first sentence. Again, for this vote to be legitimate, there should be a representative part of the vote from Quebecois wikipedians.Axolotlxl (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2017 (UTC) — Axolotlxl (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * 2) Support this version (without the serial comma, unnecessary accents, OVERLINKS and REPEATLINK of course) and let the editor who suggested the previous three eat only McDo poutine in perpetuity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:48, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) Support I support this definition because poutine is a québécois dish. Claiming otherwise is a colonial process of cultural appropriation. L&#39;Euguélionne (talk) — L&#39;Euguélionne (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * 4) Support as proposer, as second choice (proposal 4 is an earlier draft of what became proposal 1). The statement "has long been popular in cuisine of Quebec" is incorrect both grammatically (s/b "in the cuisine of") and factually (poutine wasn't "popular" until the mid-2000s). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:14, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 5) Support dragfyre_ ʞןɐʇ c 16:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal 5

 * 1) Support. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  21:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 2) Support the second one is also good. I think the cultural appropriation claim needs refs. South Nashua (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion on RfC 2
If you wish to modify a proposal or add a new one, please discuss the changes here first.

Central Canada
Wait a second...

"However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québecois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province of Québec, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States".

Central Canada includes Quebec. We should probably reword the sentence or something. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  20:11, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe this instead?:

"However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Quebecois and other Canadians' cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province of Quebec, especially in the rest of Central Canada, the Prairies, and even outside of Canada, in the northeast United States". -- EzekielT  '' Talk  20:14, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I chose "central Canada" deliberately, meaning the geographic area of Ontario and Quebec, as the article and the sourcing indicate that that is where poutine is popular (judging by where there are annual poutine festivals and prominent poutine restaurants). And I meant to write "a symbol of Quebecois cultural pride" without including [other] Canadians, as the article and the sourcing lead me to interpret that it became popular within Quebec first, then grew in popularity elsewhere. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:50, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


 * But Central Canada includes Quebec, so saying "and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province, especially in central Canada" implies that Central Canada is outside of Quebec when Quebec is part of Central Canada. It should really say "and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province, especially in Ontario [or the rest of Central Canada]". -- EzekielT  '' Talk  21:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, you have a point. I don't want to say Ontario because I don't think that's exactly accurate either. What if we just drop the last part of the sentence, so it just says "and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside the province." ? The next sentence describes where there are poutine festivals, so it's a bit redundant anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:51, 29 November 2017 (UTC)


 * How about "especially in the rest of Eastern Canada and in Western Canada, and even outside of Canada, in the northeast United States"? Eastern Canada includes Ontario, Quebec, the Maritimes, and Newfoundland and Labrador. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  15:21, 29 November 2017 (UTC)


 * IMO, too wordy and not accurate. As I mentioned earlier, the Quebecois version of poutine has not attained anywhere near the same level of familiarity east of Quebec. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Maybe remove "Western Canada", so it becomes "especially in the rest of Eastern Canada, and even outside of Canada, in U.S. regions such as the northeast United States"? Poutine, as you said, is popular in Toronto (and I agree, I've eaten poutine multiple times in Toronto). -- EzekielT  '' Talk  19:48, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Ivanvector's original proposal
User:Dragfyre All three options are highly problematic in their content and do not reflect at all what was proposed above. There is no need to talk about the origin of the dish both in the first and second sentence. The precise origin is centre-du-quebec area, there is no point to write the province of Quebec or Quebec, Canada, as this is tautological and cumbersome. As User:Seeris said above, for users who claim that Quebec is part of Canadian culture, then only writing Quebec, or Quebecois dish, should not be an issue since it implies Canada according to their view. Also, there must be a reference about the cultural appropriation element. Finally, I explicitly asked for User:Ivanvector original proposition to be placed in the vote, and it was not: “ Poutine (IPA stuff) is a dish of French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy. The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area and has long been popular in cuisine of Québec. For many years it was negatively perceived and mocked, and even used as a means of stigmatization against Québec society. However, since the mid-2000s poutine has been celebrated as a symbol of Québecois cultural pride, and its rise in prominence led to popularity outside Québec, especially in central Canada and the northeast United States. Annual poutine celebrations occur in Montréal, Québec City, and Drummondville, as well as Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago, and Manchester, New Hampshire. Today it is often identified as quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish", though some have commented that this labelling represents misappropriation of Québecois culture. Many variations on the original recipe are popular, leading some to suggest that poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups, and flatbreads.”Axolotlxl (talk) 03:20, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * All the proposals were copied and pasted directly from the discussion thread above. I've added a fourth proposal per your request. dragfyre_ ʞןɐʇ c 03:37, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I can sink my teeth into this suggestion (without the serial comma and unnecessary accents of course). Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:31, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

None of the proposals work for me. They either are WP:OVERLINK violations (particularly when linking Canada in the third proposal) and none link to the Canadian cuisine or cuisine of Quebec articles in the lede sentence, only to have a WP:REPEATLINK at "quintessential Canadian food and has been called "Canada's national dish". Also, all three versions introduce a serial comma at "soups and flatbreads". And there are unnecessary links to redirects for Montréal and Québec City rather than Montreal and Quebec City. The original, "is a Quebecois dish originally made with French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy" is best and completely ignored in any of the proposals. As pointed out, RSes state it's French-Canadian, and our equivalent would be Quebecois. I'll assume this a good faith set of proposals, but too many minor changes that do not belong and no real alternative for the previous version. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Support this version (without the serial comma, unnecessary accents, OVERLINKS and REPEATLINK of course) and let the editor who suggested the previous three eat only McDo poutine in perpetuity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:33, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with the points brought by Walter Görlitz.Axolotlxl (talk) 03:38, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm confused, did you edit-conflict with yourself? The text that Axolotlxl wrote above your bolded "support" comment (above the apparent edit conflict) is the first draft of what became proposal 1. I think all that changed was adding "originating from the Canadian province of Quebec". Anyway that text now appears to be proposal 4. The accents can go, I wasn't being very careful about checking redirects when I drafted it, and I assumed since it's an article on a French topic we'd use French spelling. Stripping "Quebecois" from the first sentence was to resolve an argument between two editors here (see the history of the page) about whether it should be described as Quebecois or Canadian, both of which are supported by different reliable sources and representing a debate Wikipedia shouldn't take a side in. And the whole serial comma thing is above my head so I don't bother with it, you can go ahead and fix it if you want. The previous lede (the current lede) is the one that is laden with confusing links, repeated statements (it repeats the traditional ingredients twice, for no reason), and a confusing POV skew which chooses to present poutine as only Quebecois while also cherrypicking Fabien-Ouellet's opinion about classification without mentioning his opinion about appropriation at all. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:51, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I did not. The time stamps (and edit history) show the order of edits. I had the edit conflict with Axolotlxl. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Current lead
perhaps we should include the current poutine lead in the RFC?:

"Poutine (/puːˈtiːn/; Quebec French: [put͡sɪn] (About this sound listen)) is a Canadian dish originating from the province of Quebec, originally made with French fries and cheese curds topped with a brown gravy.[1] The dish emerged in the late 1950s in the Centre-du-Québec area.[2] For most of its existence, poutine was negatively perceived and mocked,[3] which is in drastic contrast with its later popularity.[1][4][5] In the past, poutine was even used as a means of stigmatization against the Quebec society.[1][3] Today, poutine is celebrated both within Quebec and throughout the rest of Canada. It has also gained popularity in the United States. Poutine festivals are held in Drummondville, Montreal, and Quebec City, as well as in Toronto, Ottawa, Chicago and New Hampshire. Poutine is now served using different toppings and ingredients beyond the original French fries, cheese curds, and brown gravy.[1][6] Nicolas Fabien-Ouellet, the author of "Poutine Dynamics" (a peer-reviewed article published in the journal CuiZine), suggests that with its increasing variations, poutine has emerged as a new dish classification in its own right, just like sandwiches, dumplings, soups and flatbreads". -- EzekielT  '' Talk  05:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * We could, although it seems as though most of the contributors to this discussion favour a change. Would you support keeping the current lead as is? dragfyre_ ʞןɐʇ c 16:07, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply :). Yes, I would support keeping the current lead as it is. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  17:08, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Canvassing
Whoever has the unhappy task of closing this mess, please be aware that has been canvassing support for a Quebecois-exclusive POV at the French Wikipedia:. There are already editors here commenting in support of this POV who have never edited the English Wikipedia (or any Wikipedia) before these notices were posted. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:26, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see why the fact that I've never edited any Wikipedia discredits my opinion on poutine. Wikipedia is supposed to be an inclusive platform. I think that the fact that you're talking about a minority culture your not part of discredits your opinion even more than the fact that I'm a beginner on Wiki edit. L&#39;Euguélionne (talk) 17:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * are you Axolotlxl? -- EzekielT  '' Talk  17:42, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No I’m not Axolotxl… Are you Stephen Harper? ;) L&#39;Euguélionne (talk) 18:26, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * @L'Euguélionne: Please review Single-purpose account, which sheds some light on why your contributions are suspect because you haven't edited Wikipedia anywhere outside this discussion. —C.Fred (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Axolotlxl was even removing "Canada" from the infobox and removing the Canadian cuisine template, even though the poutine article is included in the Canadian cuisine template. The user also singled out Quebec as "outside" of Canada in many edits. And the user's only contributions to Wikipedia are to induce a "Quebecois-only" POV. -- EzekielT  '' Talk  17:22, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It's almost a guarantee that L'Euguélionne is Axolotlxl. L'Euguélionne was only just created and the first edit he makes is to Talk:Poutine. QUACK. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:49, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Now you’re taking out the conspiracy argument to discredit my opinion. Maybe that’s because you have no argument to refute the fact that poutine is a québécois dish, part of autonomous québécoise culture, and the zeal you put to try to absorb it into canadian culture against the will of Québécois.e.s is nothing else but colonialist reflex. And by the way I’m a woman so do not refer to me as “he”. L&#39;Euguélionne (talk) 18:46, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * "I don't see why the fact that I've never edited any Wikipedia discredits my opinion on poutine" - you are [redacted] (Axolotlxl), aren't you! -- EzekielT  '' Talk  18:53, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Still no intellectual arguments out there. Plus, I’ve already told you I’m a woman. I think you should accept the simple fact that most Québécois.e.s believe that poutine should be labelled nothing else than a québécois dish. L&#39;Euguélionne (talk) 19:44, 30 November 2017 (UTC)


 * If you aren't Axolotlxl, do you know him or were you contacted by him to participate in the vote? -- EzekielT  '' Talk  20:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, everyone, that's enough badgering. I'm quite surprised that you haven't already been blocked for things you've written here today. Stop. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Revisions
I felt the article was pretty close to a GA and did a bit of an overhaul: Please ping me and let me know if there are any issues. Thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 20:16, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Added some sources where needed and commented-out some things I couldn't source.
 * Added secondary sources for a lot of the primary ones, such as festival and restaurant websites. (For the time being, I left the primary sources in but they could be removed.)
 * A bit of layout work, summarizing the origins a bit and adding some more history there as an overview.
 * Reorganized the sections Variations and Cultural aspect, and added a bit. These might be big enough to consider tighter summaries or cutting out the more trivial factoids.
 * General copy edit.

Voter suppression scandal
Removed this from the article as it seemed tangental to the topic during a GA review, but preserving it here in case there is any interest in moving it to another article. Please see the history of this article for attribution. – Reidgreg (talk) 00:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * In the 2011 Canadian federal election voter suppression scandal, there were reports of misleading automated phone calls in Guelph, Ontario, which directed voters to the wrong polling stations. An Elections Canada investigation found the calls were made through a disposable cellphone registered to a "Pierre Poutine" of the false address "Separatist Street" in Joliette, Quebec. The source of the calls was traced to an Internet address which seemed to correspond to the Guelph campaign office of Conservative candidate Marty Burke.

Nitpicking
"Some restaurants in Montreal offer poutine with such additions as bacon, or Montreal-style smoked meat, although these are not as common."

I guess it's true that the variations are not as common as Original Recipe Poutine, but most places in Montreal (Mamma's Pizza, Alto's, and so forth) sell a number of variations. This one place, La Banquise, has around twenty kinds, and it's open 24 hours, so it must be makin' some cash.

There's also a vegetarian version made with pepper sauce instead of meat gravy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.121.79 (talk) 12:40, October 4, 2008‎ (UTC)
 * Reorganized variations. Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Preparation
I changed the wording of the preparation, which described it as a "mixture." Although it may end up that way (as shown in that nasty and unappetizing photo), it is not normally prepared by "mixing" per se.
 * Agreed, thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Removed from the article to here
From the Tourist office of Nice, I received the following explanation: "La poutine, alevins de ppoisson pêchés uniquement dans la Baie des Anges aux mois de février et mars, se cuisinent en omelette ou en beignets."

''Qui connait le mot allemand ou bien le term en latin pour cette espèce de poission? Merci de répondre au: transactor@compuserve.com. Merci.''
 * That relates to a different topic. Thanks for removing it. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Picture change
++ I did change the tag of the actual picture (06/06/04) because it said "Poutine with gravy" and poutine necessarily refers to gravy. This change is made to avoid confusion.

Can we change the picture? I like poutine very much, but seeing the keyboard in the backgroud just doesnt fit in. Can we change the picture for somehting better? The poutines' fine. Its not his fault lol paat


 * i also think the poutine in the pic is nothing special as a sample. i would suggest http://evilloop.com/poutine.jpg hehehe i always use this pic when i'm talking about it with people online. i don't remember where i picked it up tho. zenzizi

The picture should be changed because the Poutine in this picture looks disgusting. It does not do the dish justice.
 * I take it the present picture is acceptable? – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Creator
One of the two believed creator of the poutine which was cited (Jean-Pierre Roy) was invented in this restaurant http://www.jucep.com/ He is believed to have really invented the poutine as we know it with the three main ingredients (rather than Fernand Lachance was only mixing fries with gravy and offering cheese as another item). The patent of the poutine can be seen at this restaurant. I'll translate what he says : He opened his restaurant in 1964 and started offering the popular mix of fries with gravy until they started to sell cheese from near company. So customers started to mix cheese the the saucy fries so they added it to the menu. It was first call the "fromage-patate-sauce" (cheese-potatoes-sauce) and they were the first to sell it that way in Quebec. there is an english text on the site that explains it all and there is also a better picture.

'' For our waitresses, running in and out of the restaurant with their trays, the "fromage-patate-sauce" took too much time to write down. Many, many years ago, our grandmothers named "pouding" (pudding) any kind of mixture they would prepare. After much usage, the word sounded like "poutine". There was an inside joke about this word. We had a cook named Ti-Pout. The employees teased him by saying : Ti-Pout makes "Poutine" ! The word stuck so we decided to eliminate the three words "fromage-patate-sauce" and shorten it to "poutine" and that is what it is still called today.''

Second you all should know there is a big rivality between Drummonville and Warwick (about 70 km apart) on who invented the poutine. I dont know why you mention Victoriaville though as Victoriaville is just the biggest city near Warwick but Victoriaville has nothing to do with inventing the poutine.

you guys should make the change i'm french canadian my english is not so good and linking and all..i'm not that good

Julien August 18th, 2006
 * I've tried to summarize this (or what reliable secondary sources have reported of this) and also included a footnote which gives a little more detail. It's a really interesting story and adds a lot of local colour to the history of poutine, but we've got to use encyclopedic tone for what appears in the body of the article (there's a little more leeway with the footnote). – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Other
I made a quick edit to the line "When ordering a fast food combination meal in eastern Canada, you can pay extra to get your french fries replaced with a poutine." I removed the "eastern", since I'm in western Canada and pretty much every fast food place I've been to offers this option.
 * I'm not sure this really needs to be in the article; we know it is widespread in Canada. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Fisktin
I'm from Sweden and have never encountered or heard of the 'fisktin' that is referred to in the 'similar dishes'-section. A google search on 'fisktin' in Swedish renders three (3) hits, non of which is a menu. It should probably be sourced or removed.
 * Appears to have been removed, thanks. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)