Talk:Ppcocaine/Archive 1

BTWF source
Nice work on this BLP! The rapper herself supposedly helped give the YouTube channel "Before They Were Famous" information about her personal/early life (1:57: "We also got some help from ppcocaine who answered our questions"). This video source says that she was born Lilliane Catherine Diome on June 1, 2001 (2:55), however I'm not entirely sure if its a reliable source. Could it be added as a temp source? HeyitsBen talk 16:05, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks! Well, she's considered reliable about noncontroversial details about herself, so we could use at least some of it. The dob is trickier simply because we don't publicize that unless it's available in multiple reliable sources, but since she's saying it herself I think we probably can? —valereee (talk) 16:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hm, after watching it, no, she isn't actually saying it. He's saying she answered some questions, but he also did research through social media. I don't think we can use any of this yet. —valereee (talk) 16:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Just saw this now... Feel free to remove the dob. HeyitsBen talk 16:42, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

removal of content from lead
Hey,, you didn't provide an edit summary -- was there some reason you removed that from the lead? —valereee (talk) 18:55, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, sorry about that! I made the edit because it seemed unnecessary to say that she is known for "songs such as" "3 Musketeers" when that's the only song mentioned in the lead and, as far as I can tell, her biggest claim to fame. While she does have other songs that have made an impact locally on TikTok, it's undeniable that her most noteworthy single thus far has been "3 Musketeers", so it would make sense to stick to that song. On top of that, describing the song as objectively sex-positive in the lead, regardless of whether or not it's correct, seems to introduce POV. It would make more sense to me if it was rephrased to clarify that that's how it's been described by critics as opposed to merely stating it as a fact. Benmite (talk) 19:15, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Pinging Benmite (talk) 19:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , the 'sex-positive' is supported in the section. We could maybe describe it in lead as 'described as sex-positive' if you've got a concern about it. —valereee (talk) 20:53, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , that's what I meant. Also, how do you feel about changing the lead from saying "songs such as" to just "her song"? Benmite (talk) 22:35, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , no, she's got three songs going viral at the same time, and most of the sources mention multiple of them. 3 Musketeers is the one that's charting, but it's not the only one being mentioned. —valereee (talk) 11:05, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , my goal with the change in verbiage isn't to downplay the success or virality of her other music, but to highlight that her biggest hit thus far is "3 Musketeers", which is practically irrefutable. It's the only song of hers to chart anywhere, her most viewed song on YouTube by at least 3 million views, and her most listened to song on Spotify with over 17 million listens. Compare that with her other tikTok hits (DDLG has less than a third of the number of Spotify listens and less than half of the YouTube views with a music video, while PJ also has less than a third of the number of Spotify listens and less than a fifth of the YouTube views) and it's pretty clear that "3 Musketeers" is her truest claim to fame as of now. Many of the sources place focus on "3 Musketeers", only mentioning her other songs tangentially. Benmite (talk) 19:57, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , I read all the sources pretty thoroughly, and almost all of them mention multiple songs, several going into pretty significant mentions of more than one. Yes, 3 Musketeers is the one that's charting, but the others are getting sig cov. I'm fine with not mentioning their names in the lead, but the lead should say 'songs', plural. —valereee (talk) 11:52, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I’m adding the month by the way... Editor man12115 (talk) 04:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

major changes
We need to talk about these. The changes you are making are completely altering the content, and you're giving almost ZERO edit summaries to explain. You've completely eliminated 'sex-positive.' Let's start over and discuss the changes one by one. —valereee (talk) 20:35, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , I did give an edit summary for the major edit that I made and went into explicit detail about each change I made. The only "big" removals that I didn't mention in my edit summary were, as you stated, the removal of the words "sex-positive" and "lesbian-themed", because those facts don't seem to warrant as much inclusion in the lead as the fact that her music went viral on TikTok (it also seems to be going against WP:YESPOV), but I think they would be fine to leave in so long as it's made clear that that's how her music has been described by critics, and the repetition of reviews in both the career and reception sections, since it's redundant. I also expanded her discography to include all of her singles. If you want, I can go into more detail about the specific changes I made. Benmite (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "Rewrote lead" does not adequately explain your rationale, not remotely, and certainly not when we were in active discussion. I'm totally open to reworking to note that it's someone's opinion that the songs are sex-positive, or that they've been compared to other sex-positive songs, but there's absolutely zero controversy over whether they're lesbian-themed. All sources agree. That's WP:BLUE. The sex-positive lesbian-themed nature of basically every song she's gotten attention for is probably more important for inclusion in the lead than the names of the songs. And you removed those bits not only from the lead but from the entire article. And I don't know which redundancy you're talking about, your edit summary didn't mention it. Like I said, let's talk about each change before we make it, and let's use edit summaries that provide rationale for any changes that aren't obvious. (In fact it's best practice to use an edit summary for even the most minor edit; you can turn on a switch in your preferences that will remind you if you forget to leave one.) —valereee (talk) 11:20, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The redundancy I'm referring to is the multiple copied-and-pasted phrases that appear in both the "Career" and "Reception" sections. For example, in the Career section, it reads,

"Her song '3 Musketeers'...became 'one of the definitive songs of this summer' and 'something of a lesbian anthem on TikTok' according to the New York Times."
 * And a nearly identical sentence shows up in the Reception section:

"Her song '3 Musketeers' was described by Jon Caramanica of The New York Times as 'one of the definitive songs of this summer' and 'something of a lesbian anthem on TikTok'."
 * Then, in the Career section:

"Bustle said her June 2020 release 'Shake Some Ass' 'became an anthem for women psyching each other up'...while noting her song 'For That Cash' has been heralded 'as a lesbian anthem on TikTok'."
 * And in the Reception section:

"Bustle said her June 2020 release 'Shake Some Ass' 'became an anthem for women psyching each other up' and that 'For That Cash' 'has been heralded as a lesbian anthem on TikTok'."
 * Removing sentences, especially when those sentences are repeated from earlier sentences almost verbatim with negligible differences in wording, isn't really altering the article, since those sentences already appear once. Benmite (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * forgot to ping —valereee (talk) 11:21, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, so maybe: Her lesbian-themed songs have been described as sex-positive. She is best known for "3 Musketeers", called one of the summer of 2020's "definitive songs". —valereee (talk) 11:35, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So I just re-checked the sources that you cited as examples of her music being described as “sex-positive” (Vulture and New York Times) and NEITHER of them ever use that phrase (the Vulture article doesn’t even use the word "sex"). Even in the WP article itself, you never say that her songs have been described as sex-positive, you just say that her music has been compared to other songs that have been described as sex-positive (and again, that phrase is never used in either article, even to describe artists to which she's being compared), which is not equivalent to her songs being directly described that way. All in all, the use of the word “sex-positive”, especially in the lead, falls under WP:OR. Benmite (talk) 16:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Pinging . Benmite (talk) 16:32, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, we never discussed, let alone agreed upon, the inclusion of "called one of the summer of 2020's 'definitive songs'" prior to this. Benmite (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , yes, that's why I brought up that quote here before adding it. I think it's a good addition. The lead is really too short right now, and that quote would be a good one for the lead. We add to the lead anything that is important enough from the sections.
 * Re: sex positive. I'm paraphrasing. When you like sex and are saying so and aren't ashamed of either liking it or saying so, that's the definition of sex-positive. The source doesn't have to say the exact academic phrase, and this isn't controversial. She likes sex. She likes to sing about liking sex. She's not ashamed of it, apparently. That's practically the definition of sex-positive, and both sources talk about her singing about liking sex. Both sources talk about all the things that are sex-positive.
 * PPcocaine is being compared to Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion singing about how much they like sex. Her songs are being compared to other sex-positive songs.
 * Re: repeated content. Go ahead and remove those from whichever section you think they don't belong, if I disagree, we can discuss. —valereee (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: repeated content. Go ahead and remove those from whichever section you think they don't belong, if I disagree, we can discuss. —valereee (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: repeated content. Go ahead and remove those from whichever section you think they don't belong, if I disagree, we can discuss. —valereee (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Maybe Her lesbian-themed songs have been compared to other sex-positive songs. She is best known for "3 Musketeers", called one of the summer of 2020's "definitive songs". —valereee (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * ETA: I mean, we could say "songs about enjoying sex", but that seems a little odd and kind of awkward when we have a term for that. —valereee (talk) 17:26, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


 * For starters, I'm not discussing whether or not we think that the articles are saying that she makes sex positive music, because, again, that's WP:OR. What's "controversial" is saying that that's what she's "known for" when, at this point in time, she's not really "known for" anything. The comparison to Cardi B and Megan was made once, in a single article (and barely, at that. The more prominent comparison has more to do with her role on TikTok than it does with "WAP") and that's it. You said before, "We add to the lead anything that is important enough from the sections," but when ppcocaine has been rapping for less than four months and there are only 10 sources in total in the article (and, as far as I can tell, those are really the only sources that talk about her at all), with only three of those sources being fully biographical (Before They Were Famous, Vulture, and Bustle), and only one of those sources (Variety) being a confirmed reliable source, can we really establish anything related to generalizations about her public image as "important enough" to include in the article, let alone in the lead, when she barely has one to begin with? Adding that her song was called a "definitive song" of the summer when only one publication said that makes it sound like reviews that would would show up on a movie poster. In other words, it reads like an advertisement.


 * It feels safe to say that she's know for making songs that get popular on TikTok, since that's directly corroborated by each source in the article (obviously aside from the Irish Charts website and the Apple Music link to 3 Musketeers), with most of the articles including TikTok in their title. But, contrary to your assertion that each source cites her music as being sex-positive and lesbian-themed, a lot of them don't. In fact, the only song that critics, specifically those in The New York Times and Bustle, describe as being "lesbian-themed" is "3 Musketeers". "DDLG", her other hit, isn't even about women ("I want my cheeks clapped, daddy / So lay me down while I arch that ass back). The New York Times only says, "'DDLG' has been used for videos where people break down the types of people they’re attracted to," while Vulture calls it "a filthy fantasy" that's caused controversy. "Pj", another minor hit of hers, also wasn't described as lesbian-themed or sex positive by any of the articles.


 * I think the article and the lead should only cover what can be said objectively instead of overstuffing it with as much minutiae about what three or four writers have said as possible and presenting those things as though they're commonly believed. Benmite (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , aight, I'll agree to disagree. You do what you want. There's no urgency to getting it perfect as long as we eventually get it right. I'll be patient. Please ping when replying, I may not always see it if you don't. —valereee (talk) 14:00, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

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