Talk:Practical equine psychology

[P0M:] I think this article needs some work, wherever it finds a home. The problem is that when other people write stuff and don't cite their sources it is difficult to just wipe out some assertion on the suspicion that it is invalid. P0M 23:43, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Point by Point
Horses, unlike domestic animals like cats and dogs, have never formed a voluntary symbiotic relationship with their human keepers.
 * That's an interesting assertion. Proof? P0M


 * In fact, I have read that horses found it favorable to begin venturing close to establishments populated by man, and while they never requested being enslaved, they found themselves compatible with man through their curiosity and gregariousness. -- Bryan


 * I remember walking out into a field with yearling colts one time. They were not bottle-fed pets and I'm sure that I couldn't have grabbed one by the jaw to lead it around, but they were definitely curious about me. They basically swarmed on me, wanted to nip hard enough to try my patience, etc. Bears that feed on garbage and handouts in our national parks lose their wildness -- to the danger of human beings. I think that horses could lose their wildness in somewhat the same way. Which reminds me that they may have found protection from wolves and other predators by staying close by humans. Don't think they lack the intelligence. I have a Rhode Island Red, the proverbial little red hen. She always slept wherever she felt like sleeping until the early morning when a young raccoon invaded the back yard. My two dogs were after it at once. They chased it into a tree. It fell from the tree. One dog got its head and one dog got its hindquarters. They went around in a vicious circle, and the racoont was dead before I could get from the upstairs bedroom window to the back door. From that day forward little red hen slept directly over the door to the doghouse. P0M

Horses are prey animals, which run in herds, and have a highly developed flight instinct in order to avoid becoming food for predators. Nonetheless, because their physiology is peculiarly suited to the accomplishment of a number of human-related jobs and entertainments, humans have domesticated horses and pressed them into service for centuries.
 * This passage is fairly accurate, but not well written. P0M

The clearest and most fundamental pecking-order relationship in horse herds is that between mare and foal.
 * Another interesting assertion. But do mare and foal contend for dominance and establish a "pecking order"? Proof? Relevance?P0M


 * The band stallion exists within a very clear dominance hierarchy. Below him are his harem, who among themselves, have established a rather clear pecking order. While the alpha mare is often responsible for directing the band to food and water and disciplining foals, the band stallion directs the band away from other stallions and away from danger. Additionally, the band stallion maintains a clear pecking order between himself and bachelor stallions after his mares. Furthermore, a pecking order exists between different bands, based in large part on the overall pecking order of the band stallion and the other band stallions. -- Bryan

Foals and young horses display subservience and a "don't hurt me - I'm harmless" message to other members of the herd by drawing the corners of their mouth back and open - creating an almost "keyhole" effect at the corners of the mouth, chewing dramatically, and lowering their head.
 * This is stated as though it is a function of the age of the animals involved, and as though adults never use these signals. Wrong on both points. P0M

Mares exhibit this same behavior (among others) to signal acquiescence to a breeding stallion. In mature horses, a less dramatic chewing motion, lowered head, and cautious approaching walk signals simple acquiescence. A mare will discipline and reassert her dominance over a misbehaving foal by raising her head and tail, and moving aggressively toward it. If it fails to retreat, she may make eye contact as a further threat, bite it at the rump or withers, or even resort to a mild kick. She will keep the foal at a distance and keep it moving away with these actions until it offers to return meekly with lowered head and chewing motions, indicating submission. She will in turn accept the contrite foal with her own lowered head, turning sideways,
 * I don't see any obvious problems with accuracy, but the prose could be improved. P0M

and perhaps engaging in mutual grooming.
 * Letting oneself be groomed signals subserviance, which is why horse owners are cautioned not to let their horses "groom" them. I think this part is clearly wrong. P0M

The pecking order is firmly established when she moves slowly away and the foal follows at her shoulder no matter which way she turns. Monty Roberts calls this point in the relationship "join up."
 * Typically, mother and foal are in "join up" from birth. Mothers do discipline foals, but it would be rare for a mare to drive her foal out of the herd. Normally it would be the dominant mare of the herd that acted in that way. I'll back down if somebody can provide a good citation, but that's not the way Roberts has explained things. -- And "join up" is his term for establishing a negotiated relationship between human and horse. P0M

A senior mare or "herd mare" will assert her dominance over the other mares in the herd in much the same way.
 * Proof? Citations? Ostracism, as far as I know, is an extreme sanction to be used only when somebody is behaving in a very anti-social way. Asserting dominance can be a very even struggle for domination between individuals (something that horse owners don't like to contemplate when bringing a new horse home). But sanctioning another horse is the prerogative of the alpha mare. -- Again, as far as I know. But at least I've done my homework. P0M


 * The band stallion plays a role in ostracism, often at about the time his colts display a sexual interest in his mares. -- Bryan

[P0M:] I would rather go back to the basics, get citations from Roberts' books, and represent what he has learned accurately. I do not think that the original author of this article intentionally misrepresented anything, but I think some ideas were included because they seemed plausible extrapolations of what s/he read.


 * Roberts is by no means the ultimate source for horse behavior. Stephen Budiansky, Margaret Cabel Self, J. Frank Dobie (his classic work The Mustangs), Moyra Williams, Tom Ainslee, Pat Parelli and Mark Rashid are excellent sources. -- Bryan

To summarize the points I interspersed in the above "dialogue":
In fact, I have read that horses found it favorable to begin venturing close to establishments populated by man, and while they never requested being enslaved, they found themselves compatible with man through their curiosity and gregariousness. -- Bryan

The band stallion exists within a very clear dominance hierarchy. Below him are his harem, who among themselves, have established a rather clear pecking order. While the alpha mare is often responsible for directing the band to food and water and disciplining foals, the band stallion directs the band away from other stallions and away from danger. Additionally, the band stallion maintains a clear pecking order between himself and bachelor stallions after his mares. Furthermore, a pecking order exists between different bands, based in large part on the overall pecking order of the band stallion and the other band stallions. -- Bryan

The band stallion plays a role in ostracism, often at about the time his colts display a sexual interest in his mares. -- Bryan
 * I think that is a different kind of ostracism. It's not "You'd better straighten up young man," it's "Leave now because you're cruising for a bruising." [P0M]

Monty Roberts is by no means the ultimate source for horse behavior. Stephen Budiansky, Margaret Cabel Self, J. Frank Dobie (his classic work The Mustangs), Moyra Williams, Tom Ainslee, Pat Parelli and Mark Rashid are excellent sources. -- Bryan

§ I certainly agree that Monty Roberts is not the ultimate source for horse behavior -- except for his discovery on how "negotiations" are conducted between the alpha mare and fractious colts. I was unwilling to get started on cleaning up this article because of the authors that Bryan mentions I'm only familiar with one book by Margaret Cabell (sic) Self, and I didn't have the time to do all the research needed to set things to rights. I at least made a list of the people whose names had popped up in my recent reading in Present-day proponents of establishing cooperative relationships between humans and horses, which I cobbled together out of other articles that had assertions that seemed to me to need a knowledgeable editorial hand. I hope that Bryan or somebody else will straighten some of these things out. (I'm glad to see that Bryan agrees with my critiques at the top of this talk page, but that's my ego speaking I guess.) P0M 03:53, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Delete article?
I just re-read this article. It started from materials taken out elsewhere, materials that the original writer might have provided citations for but never did. As it stands it has very little value. Should it be rewritten by going to some of the reliable sources already mentioned? Or should it just be scrapped? P0M 05:03, 16 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You may want to do a major edit of this article, as it cites some erroneous information from disputed sources. For example, as a horse breeder, I have never observed mamas and babies doing anything so obvious and dramatic as what was written here. Mama horses have an amazing amount of patience with their little ones.--Lil Peck 00:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. That's one of the things that bugged me about the article in the first place. Can we get citations to use in cleaning the article up? I know... Sometimes things that everybody who has ever done it already knows are not written down in some authoritative book somewhere. Let's try to make it as objective as we can. Why don't you make the change you indicated, and fix anything else that is obviously wrong. Sometimes people get interested in articles and want citations for assertions like, "Fire is hot," but at least you have the authority of practical experience. P0M 00:45, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Lil Peck Apparent reputable, reliable sources of information about feral horses include Ginger Kathrensand Robert Vavra. Another was "Wild Horse Annie" who worked on behalf of mustang preservation. I don't know if she wrote any books. Another apparently reliable book seems to be The American Mustang Guidebook by Lisa Dines. I found it on print.google.com.

Merged
I just merged what was left of this article into the Horse behavior article (what was left here was essentially a stub) and put this page as a redirect. No sense having two articles on essentially the same topic. Montanabw 00:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)