Talk:Pranava Veda

Untitled
I've created this page as there are citations about the same at http://books.google.com/books?q=%22Pranava+Veda%22&btnG=Search+Books

I've added a citation about the Veda and the source from Government of India where the Veda has been narrated.

There is also a book named

Pranavan Vedam Available online at http://www.aumoneworld.com/books.html
 * by Dr. S. P. Sabharathnam
 * "A fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe and the ancient science of Pranava Veda or the cosmic life force. Written by a master in the Agamas."

This Veda is not much researched due to unknown reasons. I am researching the same. Among the Vishwabrahmins it is popularly said that this Veda is the first veda, and all other Vedas were created using this one. Also this treatise is around 10,000 years old. Again, these are being popularly said. I do not know about the realities, will need to find out.

There is another narration "Pranava Veda, a Sanscrit work used in the East" found at
 * Psychic Science April 1931 to January 1932
 * ISBN 1417978155
 * Published 2004 Kessinger Publishing
 * New Age / Parapsychology
 * Page 17

Note
The description "A fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe and the ancient science of Pranava Veda or the cosmic life force. Written by a master in the Agamas." applies to the book by Dr. S. P. Sabharathnam listed on this page, and not some historical veda. So currently the Pranava Veda article is factually incorrect, since the second sentence from a 1965 gazetteer clearly does not refer to this book. Also note that Dr. S. P. Sabharathnam's book fails wikipedia's notability guideline for books. Abecedare 05:04, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Does a mention from a gazetteer not testify that people follow a veda called Pranav Veda?BalanceRestored 07:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you have to say about ISBN 1417978155???? What is that referring to ???BalanceRestored 07:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

this appears to be a term used in mysticism and occultism to refer to an alleged "original Veda" or similar. If we can give a clean account of the term, there can well be an article about it, but it appears to have next to no notability. Some spiritualist appears to have alleged its existence in 1930 or so. Not much else can be said. Treat what little we have over at Pranava. dab (𒁳) 08:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I just figured out that "Pranava Veda" is just a common misspelling for Pranava-Vada. . dab (𒁳) 08:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict):: Here is a Pranava Vada according to Gargyayana, supposedly authored by Bhagavan Das in early 20th century. Didn't find the text even on worldcat or even a single mention of "pranava veda" in either the "Bibliography of Asian studies" or ISI indexes. So don't see how this modern book can satisfy the WP:BK requirements either. Abecedare 08:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Correction: Pranava vada does have sources, as pointed by dab, so perhaps an article can be created on that text. Abecedare 08:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * ISBN 1417978155 is this book referring Vada or Veda? it says "Pranava Veda, a Sanscrit work used in the East", you guys are trying to Ignore it.. BalanceRestored 09:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

"trying to ignore it"? I figured out its proper spelling for you. Your "Sanscrit work used in the East" reference is from a shoddy spiritist publication. You need to find information about the actual text. Pranava Vada doesn't mean "science of AUM", it means "the uttering of AUM". Quite a difference, wouldn't you say? Can you collect some decent literature and then create Pranava Vada? We can then continue the debate over there. dab (𒁳) 12:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you all trying to force something purposely? When is it Veda, why mention it Vada? It is Pranav Veda written by Mayan (Maya) 10,000 years ago. This sages name is there in the Yajur Veda. This is the first Veda. There are 1000's books in Southern India that has clear citations for the same. Kindly do not play with ethics. Any why the end of Kaliyuga has come. You all know what will happen.. I don't have to write anything more. GOD is there, I believe in him 100%. Things will be there for you all too see.BalanceRestored 13:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * :D is that a divine curse or prophecy? Or a veiled threat? --Ragib 21:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There are 4 lakh Indians who follow this veda in India. Kindly do not play with their emotions. This is a request.BalanceRestored 13:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I figured it out. This is Devaneya Pavanar/Kumari Kandam style Tamil national mysticist crackpottery: Mamuni Mayan appears to be a figure of Sangam epics, and the "Pure Tamil" people allege that the Hindu Vedas derive from some "original Veda" written 10,000 years ago, in Tamil. This doesn't have enough notability for Wikipedia. At best mention the character at Sangam literature. dab (𒁳) 13:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * What about the citation at ISBN 1417978155. You say that too is not talking about Pranava Veda when it is Pranava Veda clearly written. Why are you all not taking that as it is?BalanceRestored 13:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

your 1931 "psychic science" reference says that Glenna E. Sutcliffe claimed that there was a Sanskrit text called Pranava Veda. Given the occultist/theosophic context, this is likely a misspelling (De Barth's or Sutcliffe's) for the work by Das. You should check Sutcliffe's 1930 The New Astronomy and Cosmic Physiology and see what sources he gives if you want to pursue this. This is a booklet long out of print, and certainly doesn't have the notability for its own article. If you are interested in discussing Sutcliffe, you may want to create a Glenna E. Sutcliffe article. dab (𒁳) 13:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have a citation for the text being a misspelling? On what basis is it written that the text is a misspelling. Again you just ignore something else. Drāno (also spelled Draino) you have also ignored the same. You have replaced ā with a (both are different characters) in the text. You all are just trying what I do not know. What if by chance all this is the truth? What if actually tomorrow it is proven that the Pranava Veda is the 1st Veda. In sanskit Ved is pronounced "Vaid". The author has written "Vaida" which is nothing else but "Veda" which is the english way of writting Vāda "Vaida", "Vaida" or "Vaidam".BalanceRestored 06:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Cited the details found by "Mysore State Gazetteer:"
"Mysore State Gazetteer:",
 * Printed by the Director of Print., Stationery and Publications at the Govt. Press
 * 1965
 * Page 220

you searched google books and came up with a snippet view of that publication. That's hardly a reference, and gives no context. Clearly far too obscure to warrant its own article. dab (𒁳) 07:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Kindly provide citations for the Panchals following the alleged "fifth Veda" kindly do not cite you own thoughts. BalanceRestored 07:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Citations for a misspelling for Pranava-Vāda
Are there any citations for Pranava-Veda being the misspelling of Pranava-Vāda. This is misguiding the visitors. BalanceRestored 08:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a website that misspells it . I quote, "This system seems to have been recovered, in part at least, in a somewhat mysterious way, by Bhagavan Das, and we refer the student to his great work, the Pranava Veda." Abecedare 08:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I created Mamuni Mayan, which appears to be the proper article to discuss your point. It would be great if you could provide references for this. I suspect that as a topic of Tamil national mysticism, most sources will be in Tamil and thus very difficult to access for me. I haven't even figured out the proper spelling of "Mamuni Mayan" yet. There also appear close links to "Vastu Shastra" schools, and these do not seem to harp on the Tamil nature of the Pranava Veda in particular. This seems to be an interesting but very obscure (recent?) topic of Indian occultism, and it would be nice to get better references on it. dab (𒁳) 09:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

btw, Das himself translating his book's title as "science of the sacred word" is conductive to this confusion. This is actually the translation of pranava veda, not pranava vada. It might be worth scanning the book for an explanation of this apparent confusion. dab (𒁳) 09:09, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Bhagwan Das's previous two books were titled "The Science of the emotions" and "The science of peace", so I guess he just wanted to continue the theme. He also notes in the "The nature of the present translation" (page 95 of preface) that he is concerned more with the spirit of the words than the letter, and has allowed himself freedom in use of the English language. Abecedare 10:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

does any one have citations for Pranava Veda is "allegedly" a Veda?
The above was written, kindly provide citations for the same.BalanceRestored 05:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Abecedare You made the following change and wrote, check the talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pranava_Veda&diff=144120765&oldid=144120510 I did not find citation which says Pranava Veda is "allegedly" a Veda. BalanceRestored 05:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The reason the word "allegedly" is used is because, we don't know whether the "Pranava Veda" followed by the Vishwabrahims refers to : So the word allegedly simply represents our lack of knowledge. I have looked through academic databases such as JSTOR, ISI Index and Bibliography of Asian studies and none of them has a single reference to any document called the Pranava Veda. So perhaps we need to look into Tamil literature to see if we can find a reliable source that can clarify the nature of the concept/text; and you are perhaps best placed to make this search. Once we have found an authoritative source on this topic, we can change the language on the disambiguation page accordingly. Abecedare 07:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) the concept of Aum as a Veda, or
 * 2) a separate and specific text

Something Interesting.
"Indian government officials discovered the Pranava Veda, along with other documents, in a 10, 000 year old library approximately 30 years ago and entrusted the ancient texts to Dr Sthapati knowing that he is the only living person on the planet with complete knowledge of the subject and the ability to understand and interpret the technical language in which they are written. He is currently working on translations in common Tamil and English." Could be a rumor. Src : BalanceRestored 07:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The publication of the Pranava Veda is no rumor. Dr. V. Ganapati Sthapati published 1000 verses and a commentary on Mayan's Pranava Veda and it was published by Dakshina Publishing in 2005. I have a copy. The book mentioned above "Pranava VAda " is a completely different book from the Pranava Veda by Mayan. I spent a full day with two scholars (with technical knowledge) translating into English the first verse of the Pranava Veda. It is a difficult text to translate because of the technical language used. We then presented it to Dr. V. Ganapati Sthapati for review. (Dr. Jessie Mercay) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.99.142.25 (talk) 15:43, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

More resources confirming the Veda
http://www.aumscience.com/board/vastucert.html

Check the topic "From Mayans Aintiram, a condensation of Pranava Veda" BalanceRestored 07:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Pranava
pranava. Om, the sacred primordial sound principle.

pranava-naada (-naadha). Om sound.

pranava-swarupa (-svaruupa). Embodiment of Om.

source:http://www.sathyasai.org/refs/vahiniglossary/pentries.htm

One among the 1000 names of Lord Shiva. BalanceRestored 10:08, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The Lord ideated from Pranava the Vedas – The Rig Veda out of its letter "A", Yajur Veda from the letter "U", Sama Veda from the letter "M", and Atharva Veda from the Ardhamatra. BalanceRestored 10:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Veda Vyasa, the compiler of the Vedas himself writes about the Pranava Veda as being the first Veda. See the following citation:

Dr V. Ganapati Sthapati writes: “Mayan the architect and town planner of India and the progenitor of Vaastu Shastra lived in the southern part of the Indian sub-continent, known as Kumari Mandalam (Lumerian Continent), some ten to fifteen thousand years ago. He is the author of Mayamata Vastu Shastra and Surya Siddhanta, the two great works, which are still alive, being used by scholars and practitioners, all over India. They have revolutionized the erstwhile material culture of India into a spiritual one and today they are known worldwide and admired for the rich scientific material, they contain.

References about him are found in our epics Ramayanam and Mahabharatam. In Mahabharatam, he is found to have been introduced by Veda Vyasa to Arjuna as Viswakarama - "ahamhi Viswakarma vai dana vanam mahakavi’ – I am the Viswakarma (the creator) and the great poet of the Danava clan. It shows that he was adored as the poet of Danavas and as Viswakarma, implying thereby that Mayan was aware of the dynamics of the Space and was able to apply the space-mechanism in his own creations and transform them to little universes on earth. Whatever be the creation, a building, a sculpture, a town or a city, they behaved like living organisms pulsating with life. Hence he was rightly called Viswakarma of the material world or sometimes as the Viswakarama of the celestial world. No scientist of his caliber or status is found to have emerged in the soil of Bharat till date.

In Ramayana, Maharishi Valmiki extols him as highly enlightened and endowed with super human intelligence and talents. In the words of Sage Valmiki, Mayan was ‘mahatejaswi’ and ‘maayaavi’. ‘ mayonaama mahaateja maayaavi vaanarishabha.’

Another authority that introduces Mayan to the later day shilpins is Prince Elango of Kerala, in his historical epic ‘Silappathikaaram’, as a tradition builder. He has also authored the most ancient and scientific treatise on Astronomy titled ‘Surya Sidhanta’. As scholars have pointed out it is he who has painted a comprehensive but succinct picture of Brahman, the Ultimate and Absolute, addressed as Kaala Brahman by Mayan himself. This particular identification of Time as Brahman has earned him a significant title 'Kaalajnani' (one who has recognized that Time is the causal element of the universe and universal objects – visual and aural forms). It is he who has equated Time and Space and evolved a system of spiritual arts namely poetry, music, dance, architecture and sculpture – all governed by the principle of energy vibrating into space and spatial form.

There is another treatise carrying his name, called Mayamatam, where we have the principles of Vastu and Vaastu, rendered in the pattern of a technological treatise, followed by the shilpis across the length and breadth of India.

Another notable discovery made recently is that he was the author of Pranava Veda, the primal and most significant of all Vedas, which is referred in Bhagavata Mahapuranam as ‘eka eva pura vedah pranavo sarva vangmayah’, whereby, Veda Vyasa confirms the existence of the one and only Veda in the very remote past. Today it is found to have been originated in the Kumari Continent, Mayan being the author. The text in technical Tamil, as the Siddha literature of the Tamils, is getting printed and likely to see the light of day before long.

There is already a Tamil text of Mayan called AINTIRAM, published by the Directorate of Technical Education, Govt. of Tamil Nadu, India. It is actually another version of Pranava Veda in sutra form. Later day scholars called this Aintira Vyakarana. This appears to have served as a ‘source book’ for later day grammar of Indian languages.” (www.Vastuved.com) From "Mamuni Mayans Building Architecture of Sthapatya Veda and Vaastu Shastras", by Dr. Jessie Mercay www.aumscience.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.57.132.225 (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Something really surprising
Considered to be the son of the Vasuprabhasa and his wife, Yogasiddha, according to one tradition, Visvakarma had five faces, ten hands and from each of the face he begot a son. Like their father, each of the sons was extraordinarily talented and versatile in all fields and because of their stature, they were also awarded the title of Maharishi (great sage or saint) (Sharma, 1989). Each of the five sons gave rise to a major artistic lineage, and theoretically any artist can trace his mythical descent to one of them. The five sons of Visvakarma are claimed to have been the first blacksmith, the first carpenter, the first founder, the first mason, the first goldsmith, variously and the succeeding generation of the craftsmen are supposed to be their progeny. Roberts (1909, p.11) quotes a passage from the Vedas:

Manu was a blacksmith and author of the Rig Veda. Maya was a carpenter and author of Yajur Veda. Twashtak was a brass caster and author of Sama Veda. Shilpi was a mason-architect and author of the Atharvana Veda. And Vishvagna was a goldsmith and author of the Pranava Veda.

http://www.amcreativityassoc.org/ACA%20Press/Global%20Correspondents/Global_1999.pdf

Interesting to read it. Can someone find out who Roberts... and how and which passages he is quoting this from?

Got it, it is written by Roberts, A.E. (Roberts Alfred Edwards) (1909). Visvakarma and his descendants. Calcutta : All-India Vish-vakarma Brahman Mahasabha.


 * Identifier	vishwakarshamuay026126mbp
 * Media Type	texts
 * Call Number	26126
 * Image Count	147
 * Title	VISHWAKARSHAMU AYANA SANTATIYUNU
 * Creator	ALFRED EDWARD ROBERT
 * Publisher	DHAVALESHWARA SOMALINGACHARYULU
 * Contributor	CCL
 * Date	1927
 * Contributor	SRI KRISHNA DEVARAYA ANDHRA BASHANILAYAMU
 * Language	tel
 * Contributor	PAR INFORMATICS HYDERABAD
 * Public Date	2006-12-06 12:44:56

http://www.archive.org/details/vishwakarshamuay026126mbp

BalanceRestored 11:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Books
Pranava Vedam is also the title of a book by S. P. Sabharathnam (no bibliographic details available, apparently self-published). This is the source of BalanceRestored's "A fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe".

There is another book in Telugu which has "Pranava Veda" in its title, Śrīcētanā kalpamu (praṇava vēda samājamu) anu śaśvāśruva, svacaśrī cētanā kalpaṭhānvīkāmrada praṇava vēda tatva jñāna samājam praṇavavēdānalambula katyantōpayōgambuga vidhīṣṇānyāsamu by Sandhyana Mahēṣṇa, Kākināḍa : Bhaṭla Rāmabrahmānandasadmayābhīṣṇa (1912) (thank you worldcatlibraries.org)

There is also a "Pranava Upanishad", contained in the Paippalada (AV) Gopatha Brahmana. dab (𒁳) 08:23, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

it begins to transpire that this is a concept of the Alvar bhaktas of Tamil Nadu. I don't have a reference so far, but it seems most likely. If substantiated, this page might best be made a redirect to Alvars. dab (𒁳) 21:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The publication on the Pranava Veda by Dr. Sabharathnam is a small monograph published by Dakshina Publishing, Chennai. The Pranava Veda is not a concept of the Alvar Bhaktas. It is part of the tradition handed down for thousands of years by the Vishwakarma Clan. The concepts discussed in the Pranava Veda and Aintiram are the concepts related to the formation of the Universe, quantum physics, point, string, and spin theories. it discusses the transformation of energy into matter and the specific process which occurs during that transformation. This knowledge is the background knowledge for traditional dance, music, sculpture, architecture, and poetry of ancient India. It describes a mathmatical order that occurs during the transformation of energy to matter (called pranava - meaning pure energy turns itself into material world). This mathematical order is applied to these arts thus creating forms that have specific energetic qualities when applied properly. (Dr. Jessie Mercay) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.99.142.25 (talk) 15:59, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite
I agree with whoever said that this article needs a complete rewrite, and as a new editor thought I'd have a crack. I'm using this section temporarily to hold text which I can't place, or belongs elsewhere. It will be deleted as I deal with it. Chrismorey (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

possible material for article on V. if he is notable:
 * Veerabathiranar was a savant and had a divine gift of perfectly memorizing thousands of verses of ancient texts. The works of Mayan were among the texts he memorized in his younger years. Veerabathiranar had a special interest in astrology.  In his search for the most ancient texts on astrology, Veerabathiranar found the Pranava Veda texts, which he memorised.

I don't understand the relevance of these:
 * He (Sthapati) realized that this knowledge (Pranava Veda) being transmitted in front of him was the foundation of his own Vaastu lineage and the authentic entire lineage of Sthapatya Veda.
 * Dr. Sthapati’s lineage was part of the tradition begun by Mayan.
 * It (P.V.) is presented as the source of Vedas by Veda Vyasa, compiler of the Vedas. [however it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article on Vyasa, which is unsure whether Vyasa was a person or a school of scribes]

There is a long quote from Dr.S.P.Sabharathnam who is not the subject of an article. No source is given.

I haven't attempted to take on board the other comments on the talk page, most of which I don't see the relevance of, or how they could be incorporated into the article.

In editing, I had reference to the Mamuni Mayan article which (a) covers much of the same ground, quite probably better than I've done; (b) has its own issues of grammar, style and clarity. As a new editor I'd rather someone more experienced took a view.

I'd also appreciate feedback from any experienced editor as to what I've done here. I have no prior knowledge of Indian traditional knowledge or mysticism, which this appears to be.

On reflection, I'm very dubious about the account of PV's source, which resembles legend or folktale. The whole area seems pervaded by circular referencing based on Mamuni Mayan, who may or may not have existed. A radical edit (which I don't have the competence to do - or feel I have the authority either) would be to: The PV article could be reinstated as a separate article at such time as it has verifiable content. NB I don't have access to the general reference quoted, but have doubts about it e.g. why would the only quoted authority on an ancient Tamil text be a person with a European-style name? Chrismorey (talk) 21:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * delete the Source section, unless Dr Sthapati or some authority can confirm it
 * add the Content section to the Mayan article, as a section within it, with a request for independent verification of its contents
 * delete the PV article altogether
 * redirect searches for PV to the Mayan article.

New Note: The existence of a book called Pranava Veda is undeniable. I have a copy and copies can be obtained from Vaastu Vedic Trust in Mahabalipurim. It is rediculous to say it does not exist. If you actually obtain a copy of the Pranava Veda and read it you will find it to be filled with information that reflects quantum physics, spin theory, point theory, and knowledge about the transformation of energy into matter. The word Pranava stems from the root "piral" which means to turn. In the context of Pranava veda it refers to energy turning itself into matter. Furthermore, Mayan is not a mythological person. He is indeed an ancient architect who wrote texts on various topics including the Surya Siddhanta (his name is in the text as author) and the Mayamata - a vaastu shastra on architecture. It is very typical for people to deny something they are not informed about - however, that does not make the denial accurate. Mayan is mentioned in numerous puranas and various other text such as the Bhagavad Gita. You do the research yourself instead of simply denying it or telling other people to do it for you.

In addition, thousands of members of the Vishwakarma clan follow the Pranava veda and have done so for thousands of years. While the actual text was lost at some point denying that it existed is simply irrational. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.129.168.183 (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)