Talk:Pratimokṣa

Je Tsongkhapa verses
just some short ideas to overwork the article:

There exist nowadays three Pratimoksha Lineages: The Chinese, The Theravada and Tibetan Lineage. All three should be put in the article. I add here an abstract of the Tibetan Lineage written by Je Tsongkhapa which belongs to the Mulasrvastavadin Pratimokhsa Lineage:


 * The Essence of the Vinaya Ocean
 * By Je Tsong Khapa


 * OM. May it be well.
 * Homage to the Omniscient One.


 * The means dependent on which one goes
 * With ease to liberation’s city,
 * The Sugata’s doctrine’s supreme essence,
 * Which is known as pratimoksha,


 * I shall explain in six parts: nature,
 * Divisions, the recognition of each,
 * Bases in which it is produced,
 * Causes of loss, and benefits.


 * a) Nature
 * It is, with thought of renunciation
 * Acting as cause, to turn away
 * From harm to others and its base.


 * Our higher and lower schools have two
 * Modes of assertion: that it has form,
 * Being karma of body and speech;
 * Or that it is the constantly coming
 * Will to abandon, with its seed.


 * b) Divisions
 * Pratimoksha is of eight types:
 * Fasting, layman and laywoman,
 * Male and female novices,
 * Nun probationer, full nun, full monk.


 * The first three are householders’vows,
 * The last five, vows of those gone forth.


 * c) The Recognition of Each
 * c1) Fasting (Upavasa) Vows
 * Fasting vows are to abandon
 * Eight things - four roots and four branches.


 * Incontinence, to take the ungiven,
 * Killing and false speech are four roots.
 * Great or high beds, drinking liquor,
 * Dance, song, garlands and so forth,
 * And afternoon eating are four branches.


 * c2) Lay-Followers’ (Upasaka & Upasika) Vows
 * Vows of lay-followers are to abandon
 * Killing, theft, lies, sexuall misconduct, and intoxicating drink.


 * Six lay-followers: those who practise
 * One, some, most rules, or completely,
 * The continent, and those of refuge.


 * They are lay-followers who, in order,
 * Abandon one, two, three of the four roots,
 * Sexuall misconduct, and incontinence;
 * Or just of refuge, we assert.


 * c3) Novices’ (Sramanera & Sramanerika) Vows
 * Novice vows are to abandon
 * Ten things - four roots and six branches.


 * Amusements and adornments, as two;
 * Three; and accepting gold and silver -
 * This division makes six branches.


 * Adding three kinds of falling away -
 * From making request to one’s preceptor -
 * Leaving aside householder’s marks,
 * And wearing the marks of one gone forth -
 * Thirteen things are to be abandoned.


 * c4) Probationer Nun’s (Siksamana) Vows
 * The discipline of a probationer nun
 * Is, after taking novice vows,
 * Vow of avoidance - six root rules
 * And six secondary rules.


 * Not to go on the road alone,
 * Not to swim across a river,
 * Not to touch a male person,
 * Not to sit with a male alone,
 * Not to act as go-between,
 * And not to conceal non-virtue
 * Are the six root rules of avoidance.


 * Not to pick up golden treasure,
 * Not to shave one’s pubic hair,
 * Not to eat food not received,
 * Not to eat what has been hoarded,
 * Not to excrete on green herbage,
 * Not to dig the soil - these six
 * Abandonments are the secondary rules.


 * c5) Full Nun’s (Bhikshuni) Vows
 * Eight defeats, twenty suspensions,
 * Thirty-three lapses with forfeiture,
 * A hundred and eighty simple lapses,
 * Eleven offences to be confessed
 * And the hundred and twelve misdeeds
 * Make three hundred and sixty-four
 * Things the bhikshuni abandons.


 * c6) Full Monk’s (Bhikshu) Vows
 * Four defeats, thirteen suspensions,
 * Thirty lapses with forfeiture,
 * Ninety simple lapses, then
 * Four offences to be confessed
 * And the hundred and twelve misdeeds -
 * Added together, two hundred and
 * Fifty-three things the bhikshu avoids.


 * Bases in which it is Produced
 * These eight types of pratimoksha are produced in the bases of men and women of three continents, except Kuru, but not such as eunuchs, hermaphrodites and neuters.


 * Causes of Loss
 * Causes of losing vows are two.


 * Common Causes
 * Giving back the training, death, two sexes appearing, changing thrice, and cutting one’s roots of virtue are common.


 * Special Causes
 * Learning one was not yet twenty, agreeing to serve, and the day’s elapsing are special to, respectively, bhikshus, probationer nuns, and fasters.
 * Some assert the vows are lost if one commits a root offence or if the holy Dharma vanishes. Vaibhashikas of Kashmir assert one with vows with a root offence is like a rich man with a debt.


 * Benefits
 * From keeping these vows, one will gain the temporal fruit, divine or human birth, and the ultimate fruit, the three awakenings. Since this is taught, the energetic always keep the pratimoksha, devotedly striving.


 * Dedication
 * By this virtue, may embodied beings throughout their rebirths live in pure conduct.

added by Kt66 10:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Merger with Patimokkha article
I'm adding the entire list. So the argument is moot, IMO. Vapour
 * we have to make three devisions for a general Pratimoksha article: Therevada, Chinese and for the Tibetan Pratimoksha Lineage. This will make sense, I think. Can you do this? Kt66 15:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

caution on merger
I don't think merger is wanted here. Adding 3 patimokkhas will, firstly, just make the page too long and add unnecessary text for people who want to know about just one of those patimokkhas. Also in Theravada the meaning of patimokkha is usually limited to secion c5 and c6 of Tsjong Khapa's poem. All the rest are still sila and are patimokkha in a way, but are not commonly referred to with the word patimokkha. Tsong Khapa's poem is some kind of patimokkha, but not the patimokkha when speaking about the specific texts of the Vinaya Pitaka. At best this poem is a commentary. The 'patimokkha of the Vinaya Pitaka' is the central meaning of the word patimokha as used in Theravada. Also in China this is the case I think. I'm not too sure about Tibet. Currently the page on patimokkha is suitable for Theravada, and agrees with how the word patimokkha is used in the Theravada--Sacca 03:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

-I agree. עוד1 (talk) 19:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I disagree, merge should be done. The interpretations may be different in traditions, but both words originate from the same root, and in many cases, carry the same meaning. The little amount of secondary source content in both articles does not justify a split-off, and I know of no encyclopedic source on Buddhism that separate terms like this per tradition.--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 22:36, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

merge of the three Vinaya Lineages
it would be good to make a merge of the Pratimoksha of Tibetan Lineage, the Patimokkha of the Theravada Lineage and the Dharmaguptaka Lineage. These three are the present existing Ordination Lineage of the Buddha deriving from his disciples to the present...By the way I will try to improve this article and to give more details for the interested reader. --Kt66 17:07, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Merged Article Too Long
I don't believe we should merge them. The resulting single article would become very long. What do other people think about the possibility of using categories or table templates to group the three articles (and other germane topics) so that users can find the information they need? --Deebki 04:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea, let's do this. --Kt66 23:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Factual inaccuracies
"The Prātimokṣa originated with rules given by the Buddha during his lifetime to the ordained members of his community (sangha). The number of rules developed incrementally in response to various episodes in the life of the sangha. It becames customary to recite these rules once a fortnight at a meeting of the sangha during which confession would traditionally take place. Three early codes survive: Theravadin (227 rules for monks, 311 for nuns); Mula-Sarvastivadin (258 and 366 respectively) and Dharmaguptaka (250 and 348).[1] The rules cover the most serious offences first."

The new material contains statements that are completely untrue. There are numerous pratimoksas that survive, not just those of the three extant vinaya traditions. I'm not sure why material saying otherwise is being added here, since it is common knowledge that there are other surviving vinaya texts and pratimoksas. Tengu800 12:34, 21 December 2012 (UTC)