Talk:Prayer, meditation and contemplation in Christianity

NPOV, Uncited statements, Tone
There are a lot of statements in this article that are either subjective and stated as fact, or are questionable and not backed by any source. I have removed the claim that their are "many documented cases" of people speaking in tongues and being understood by speakers of other languages, because I can find no reputable source documenting this phenomenon. I also removed the reference to speaking-in-tongues.net, because it's not an encyclopedic source. I think it might make sense to merge the whole glossolalia section with the main Glossolalia article. I also have added a "disputed" tag to the article. mistercow 05:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
Please check this article for adherence to out NPOV policy, and for factual accuracy. As written (Oct. 12, 2004) it seems a bit biased, and not representative of all Christian groups. It seems to be written from the bias of a Christian believer. It certainly needs a historical context. RK 00:11, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

I cut the following section from the article. It's a sermon. I put it here in case someone wants to use some of it for a more encyclopedic rewrite. dab (&#5839;) 08:34, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Paradoxes
There are a number of philosophical paradoxes involving prayer to an omnipotent God, namely:

If a person deserves God to give him the thing he prays for, why doesn't God give it to him, even without prayer? And if a person is not deserving of it, then even if that person does pray and request it, should it be given just because of his prayer? Why should it be necessary to pray with speech? Doesn't God know the thoughts of all people? If God is omniscient (all-knowing) then doesn't God know what we are going to ask Him for even before we pray? How can a human being hope to change God's mind? Why should human prayers affect God's decisions? Do human beings actually have the ability to praise an omniscient and omnipotent God? Praising God is difficult to do without describing God, yet how can a finite human being know anything about God's ultimate nature? This question was the subject of heated debate among many religious philosophers; one such debate took place in the 14th century between Gregory Palamas and Barlaam of Calabria.

There are many Christian approaches to these paradoxes. No one approach is authoritative for all of Christianity, or even for all of one particular Christian denomination. However, the following responses give some example of how some Christian laypeople respond to such paradoxes:

One Christian reponse is to say that God doesn't simply give a person what he needs in such a manner as to obviate prayer because God is concerned that Man has turned away from God; God knows what Man needs, and the primary thing Man needs is to turn to the Creator. This idea has its roots in the belief that humanity fell from grace through the sin of pride. God gives Man a chance to return to God, and prayer is an act by which Man shows his good will to God. A similar answer is available to why God knows what we are going to pray before we pray: indeed God does know, but God insists that we orient ourselves rightly. And we don't know what we are going to do until we do it, so we can make ourselves pray, as we act in time, such that we act conclusively in a way that shows our love for God.

Why should it be necessary to pray with speech? It isn't: Christian prayer subsumes affective and contemplative prayer that is effectively speechless. How can a human hope to change God's mind? God is outside of time and already knows the outcome, but we act within time, and must act with true charity, which we show through prayer. Do we have the ability to praise our Creator? Indeed, much as we might praise our own parents. Praise of God is praise of God's infinite glory and goodness; it is certainly true that we can never praise God enough. For this reason one can always go further in the unitive way. Indeed, the theologians affirm that to stop going forward toward God is to commence slipping backward. All of the foregoing could be richly footnoted with points from Scripture, the Summa, Denziger, and the Church Fathers.

The paradoxes need not be a problem if people understand the concept of covenant between God and humankind. A covenant is a binding agreement between two sides; both sides agreeing to certain stipulations and actions. Humankind praying to God is an aspect of the covenant which humans must fulfill. God could grant people what was on their mind but this would be in opposition to the covenant. God answers prayers based on his covenant with us. This covenant goes back in history to the time of the Hebrew Patriarchs.

information?
do we have information about catholic liturgy? I was looking for information about (to link from here. dab (&#5839;) 08:31, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Sub Tuum Praesidium
 * Gloria Patri
 * Gloria in Excelsis Deo
 * the Litany of Loreto

Feminine?
"the soul is feminine in Christian theology"

-- really? I don't think it is, but I might be wrong - I know that some Gnostics saw the soul as feminine, but I'm not sure if that is mainstream Christian theology.

I'll look it up later and if no-one objects I'll make the edit tomorrow.

jim.whitson@gmail.com (sun 18:14)


 * The Greek word for soul is feminine, as are most abstract substantives such as "love," "justice," "excellence," etc. My understanding is that this avoids a lot of problematic homo-eroticism around a gendered Christ and "His" church. - Rorybowman 18:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I see. But is it correct to say that "the soul is feminine in Christian *theology*"? 82.152.225.137 07:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality
I don't believe this article is true; part of it, like the speaking in tounges part seems to be making a point against it. 86.132.190.15 17:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Scientific study
I have removed the recommended merging with efficacy of prayer section 13 of this article, Scientific study, because I feel that this paragraph's inclusion is extremely important to anyone doing research on Christian magic rituals. As the rest of the article more or less assumes that Christian magic rituals work, I think that it is of the utmost importance that the Scientific study caveat be included to maintain the neutrality of the article, as well as to provide a more thorough factual understanding of the foundational claims of the Christian prayer phenomenon. ChrisRay6000 (talk) 16:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Matthew 6:5-6
Anyone fancy a go at trying to rationalise the usual act of Christian public prayer in services and other venues in view of this Bible verse which shows Jesus advising against it? I probably wouldn't be that good an editor for this section as I am intensely biased on this subject. I would like to see an honest examination of this verse and its attendant implications. Heliotic (talk) 22:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I think Affirmative prayer should be merged into this article. Addhoc (talk) 20:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree HrafnTalkStalk 02:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree Renata (talk) 08:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." –Matt. 18:20 - This is generally seen as a call to corporate prayer. Two or three is used here as a general statement to mean anything more than one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nowimfound (talk • contribs) 16:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No merge. No, it is not a good idea at all. It is a separate, not exactly mainstream Christian article, best left alone. History2007 (talk) 20:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Article needs prayers....
This article is in sad shape and needs prayers.... It has but a telegram on public prayer, and a larger section on speaking in tongues. Prayer books are just listed under liturgy. Methods of prayer are not even discussed. There is no mention of contemplative prayer,... etc. etc. The article needs prayers. I will try to get to it in 2012, in the meantime have to tag it. History2007 (talk) 20:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Three level structure
Per Talk:Contemplative_prayer the three level structure of prayer, meditation and contemplation has not been clearly reflected in these series of articles and needs to be. So I will sooner or later just fix them so there is a top level short article that refers to the three elements to have a uniform structure based on teh generally accepted 3 level characterization. History2007 (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

missing a lot of info
while the POV issues are significantly improved, those biased sections haven't been replaced with better content which makes this article very barebones. i would (and might start working on) add sections on different traditions of prayer (orthodox, catholic, protestant, etc) and examples of popular prayers for each of those sections Sawyer-mcdonell (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Merge proposal
Howdy! I would like to propose moving Prayer in the New Testament to this article as a new section. The topic of the article is important, but the content is to narrow to have a separate article. I think that this article should also be focused on prayer, as meditation and contemplation are types of prayer. I am going to begin to reorganize this article and rework the lead to create a more focused article. Vojo2024 (talk) 03:46, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Deletion Proposal
After thoroughly comparing this article to others, I propose that this article be deleted rather than merged. The content is covered within the article Christian prayer, a lot of the content taken word-for-word from this article. The information is also thoroughly covered in Christian contemplation and Christian meditation. I purpose of this article as a stand-alone piece seems quite ambiguous in purpose. If there are anyways in which this article could be reworked to have a clearer purpose, that route could be taken instead. However, I think that deletion is warranted in this case. Vojo2024 (talk) 21:02, 7 March 2022 (UTC)


 * user:Phil Bridger, I saw that you contested the deletion of this article. I agree with your suggestion that the history portion of this article should be salvaged. I would like to suggest merging the history portion of this page with Christian meditation and Christian contemplation respectively. Do you have any other suggestions? Vojo2024 (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Updated merge proposal
Howdy! In my last two posts, I discussed both a merge and deletion for this article. I have come to a stand-still with this article. I think that the content should be merged into Christian meditation and Christian contemplation respectively. I think that it would be beneficial for all three articles if someone were to take on this task. Vojo2024 (talk) 19:03, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Merger
It appears that there have been repeated aborted attempts to merge this article with Christian prayer. The proposal above received clear support. As in stands this article is practically invisible – only a dozen mainspace articles link here – and apart from the Developent section it merely summarises the prayer, meditation, contemplation topics.

I will copy the Development of the three stages of prayer section over to Christian prayer. This means that very little content will be lost, and the content that is preserved will now actually be read! --Hazhk (talk) 21:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC)