Talk:Preadolescence/Archive 1

Psychological Development
Most of this just seems like original research. "A preteen has more chores than any other time?" Yeah right. Orangemango (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I am going to start removing the (obviously) OR from this section. I will give it a few days to wait for input. This article has hope, but this section is just not acceptable. There has been no attempt to back up any of these remarkable blanket oversimplifications. For example, people in preadolescence are less likely to be worried about rape and violence, but more worried about ghosts and witches. At first I thought this was a joke/vandalism, but I realized it was an attempt at original research. Either way, it is inappropriate. Again, the first on January I will start removing the problem areas. I am more than willing to hear any ideas about the matter. PromisedProgress (talk) 06:15, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL. Any help for this article is much appreciated (by me, for sure). The "preteen has more chores than any other time" part has long been removed, but this article is in need of desperate help and has been for a long time. I'm just not certain that the entire Psychological development section should be removed, even though it is without citations. The most obvious things people know about this topic should stay, and formatted into paragraph form. Then the search for valid citations for it should come after that. Flyer22 (talk) 04:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And as for the "less likely to be worried about rape and violence, but more worried about ghosts and witches" part, that actually used to say "May have a fear of kidnappings, rapes, and scary media events, as opposed to fantasy things (i.e. witches, monsters, ghosts)." I changed it back to that. Somebody had put the word "not" after the word "May." Flyer22 (talk) 04:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

"tweens"
My dictionary, American Heritage dictionary says tween from 8 to 12 not from 9. That is the reason I changed the age. -- Taku 14:56 22 May 2003 (UTC)

What about J. R. R. Tolkien's use by the Hobbits of "tweens" to describe the twenties? Does it predate the current usage, even though it obviously never caught on? (Aside from with a few of us... I mean, those die-hard Tolkien fanatics.) -- John Owens 20:30 22 May 2003 (UTC)

tweens and Olsen twins - too similar and confusing. Can't we find some other role models? Paranoid 22:28, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The entry on the web comic named Tween may be irrelevent. But I added a stub for it. RJFJR 03:31, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am bringing this article back. The article on adolescence barely says anything about the preteen years, so I figured a separate article was important. However, I will not be able to do this alone. I will need others to help flesh this article out and make it distinctive and complete. Please help me with this. --69.248.236.62 03:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ugh. I don't doubt the need for an article on this subject, but most of what's here consists of stereotypes presented as facts. Most of it will have to go, unless we're willing to qualify every sentence with "It is commonly believed by adults that…" — Saric (Talk) 01:10, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see any POV. The  patterns may not be completely universal, but they are developmental progressions that are quite common but not banalities.Ghosts&amp;empties 01:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Tween

 * Merge - but give tween equal billing. Tween may be less common, but it's more contemporary as well as being in most disctionaries. Ghosts&amp;empties 01:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you cite any sources to back them up, then? — Saric (Talk) 00:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This research abstract dates "tween" to the 1990s. http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/view.cgi?bgsu1119390228 Ghosts&amp;empties 23:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose The Mice 23:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason? Powers 00:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * As I compare this article to tween, the only real over lap I see are the first sentence and last paragraph. When the two article are developed beyond stubs the content will be very different.  I'm going to delete the proposal to merge. Ghosts&amp;empties 13:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * A rather unilateral move, don't you think? I fail to see how the two concepts are different.  As far as I can tell, they refer to the exact same group of people.  Powers 14:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's the same age group, but the emphasis and perspective are different. After nearly two weeks, the only two voters oppose a merge.Ghosts&amp;empties 12:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, no... one opposes, without giving a reason, and one supports the merge. Powers 17:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, and I Support the merge as well, because they're two terms for the same thing. Whatever differences there are are not enough to justify two different articles.  Powers 17:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge - Make Tween a redirect to Preteen only because it's a more concise term--while Google gives more hits for "tween" than "preteen," "tween" can be an abbreviation for "between," whereas preteen refers only to preteens. My Child Today uses the terms as equivalent, as does I Village, which describes Tweens under a heading that says "Preteen," and The Free Dictionary defines preteen as "being a child especially between the ages of 9 and 12; preadolescent," and "tween" as "a child between middle childhood and adolesence, usually between 8 and 12 years old." .  Those definitions are virtually identical. MRN 08:14, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Tween is largely a marketing term (I suspect invented to make it easier to sell certain things to children) and does not really need to be linked to the physical and mental stage of being a Preteen. - Kuzain 23:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That seems to introduce some POV. The two are already linked by virtue of referring to the same age group.  The question is, are the two concepts different enough to justify having two articles?  What can be said about Tweens as a demographic group that can't be easily placed into the Preteen article?  Powers 21:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea when or why but I suspect the term got hijacked to refer to younger children. Frankly the combination of "weenies" and teens doesn't really seem to gel. Who even uses the term weenies? It sounds like a term for toddlers and they probably don't provide the return on investment advertisers want. The idea that tween refers to the years between early childhood and being older teenager also sounds preposterous. The adolescent years are the big in between phase of growing up - not a little kid but not an adult. There is no significant cultural reference to a prior, awkward in between period. Just found the following example: "North American wireless communication service providers have realized the vast potential of the youth market and are particularly targeting the teens and early twenties (Tween) group." Here: http://www.the-infoshop.com/study/fs34505-mobile-messaging-na.html
 * Oppose - The first time I ever heard the term Tween it was used to refer to TWEnties and tEENs, i.e, teens and young adults. The article which I cannot find at present was about the increasing spending power of these people and the increase in marketing dollars spent trying to lure them. I have a vague recollection of the article mentioning a book in which the author had coined the term - I should have a google.

Merge done
I'm not sure why anyone thought a vote was required for a merge, but quite simply the two words mean the same thing with more or less marketing spin. I've merged them as best I could and improved this article slightly, but it needs: —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Harmil (talk • contribs).
 * Physical development info
 * SOURCES
 * Social elements
 * Any time a merge might be controversial, it's never a bad idea to try to gauge consensus for it. Powers 14:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I completly disagree with this, even though it's already done. I usually hear the term "tweens and preteens" which would lead one to think that they are 2 seperate things. I think it's because younger kids are begining to act in ways similer to preteens, that the term was coined. My understanding was always that tween refered to 8 and 9 year olds... between younger children and preteens. I strongly disagree that 8 and 9 year olds are pre-teens or that 12 year olds are tweens. Preteens have always been those "double diget" years before you were a teen-ager. 10, 11, 12. The only likely overlap, IMO, would be age 10 which might be seen as either a tween or a pre-teen. Taken literally, a pre-teen would be ANYONE before they are a teen, but of course it actually refers to those years right before, when the child no longer feels like a "little kid" but isn't officially a teenager. 13 is obviously NOT a pre-teen, but a young teen. High school typically starts at 13 or 14 for some, there is always some range, but my middle school years where 10-12 and that coincides w/ pre-teen. 208.53.104.68 17:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)amyanda2000

unencyclopedic
I just have a feeling that this article is unencyclopedic. I know that most pre-adolescences make no vandalism. For example, I am a pre-adolescence and I do not have any vandalism planed. And I am just about 6.13 monthes from being 13 years old. Fbs. 13 17:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

About four months to twleve... Yeah. Never vandalized. Accused, yes. Really, no.

Sorry about that mess!
A while ago, when I added a comment to this page, I accidentally duplicated the existing messages. Then, when I meant to respond to Ghosts&empties's defense of what I called "stereotypes presented as facts", I put my new comment in the wrong place, making it look like I was talking about the proposed merge. My apologies to anyone who was confused. I've deleted the duplicates.

But now, as I meant to say before: can anyone find a source to back up the many claims in this article? I know it's tempting to think "Oh, children, they're all the same," but we're dealing with human beings here, not monkeys. I think we ought to be very careful about making sweeping, general statements about a population as large and diverse as all the world's preteens. Remember, nowadays most developed countries agree that women are entirely capable of the independent decision-making necessary for voting, but not very long ago, few people would've taken such an idea seriously. (Okay, it's not a great analogy, but you get my point.) — Saric (Talk) 00:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tween first and foremost is a marketing term. And marketers do in fact think in people in terms of large groups.  Not so large as to be superficial generalizations, but large enough for consumer products. Ghosts&amp;empties 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If that's the case, this article should mention which marketers have these opinions. For that reason, I added the "unsourced" tag. — Saric (Talk) 00:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I have to day about "Tween" is that it is an offensive term. People that age HATE the term "Tween" so there for it is offensive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MJN SEIFER (talk • contribs).
 * Do you have any sources for that assertion? Powers 21:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

So far only what I have heard on News, discussed with friends and learnt in school. I Will (Repeat "WILL"!!!) Try my hardest to get written evidense because it means a lot to me.

I also find that phrase "Too young for boys too old for toys" ofensive it's AGEISM! pure and simple you can go out with a boy/girl at any age. And no one FORCES you to stop playing with toys. MJN SEIFER


 * Please use four tildes ( ~ ) to sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks!  Powers 01:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I also do not like the term "tween" when it is used in this context. Would you want your age group to be referred to as tweens? It doesn't sound very respectable. I also think it sounds offensive. Jecowa 18:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * We were all tweens once. Well, unless there are any pre-tweens editing Wikipedia.  Regardless of whether you consider it offensive or not, though, it's a term that is in use, and we would be remiss in not mentioning that.  Powers T 17:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

rename article Preadolescence
Perhaps the articles Preteen and Tween should be merged under the name Preadolescence for conformity with the Adolescence article which Teenager redirects to. Jecowa 19:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I support this suggestion. Powers 23:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I support that too.--Always Gotta Keep It Real, Cute 1 4 u  20:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. Tim.bounceback 23:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Object. Adolescence: Boring people talk. Teen: Not boring people talk.The 11.5 year old has spoken. End of conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 22:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Object A preteen is an adolescent. However, I do think that it would be easier to write this article if it didn't have to end at a certain age. 71.131.177.221 (talk) 11:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Some preteens are indeed adolescents, but we already have an article about them at adolescence. Children have reached puberty at age seven and children have also reached puberty at age fourteen (puberty being the point at which a child becomes an adolescent according to Oxford, Webster, and American Heritage dictionaries). In a preadolescence article, we could talk about children in their few years before adolescence (puberty) instead of their few years before age thirteen. Jecowa 09:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Support. Its not a perfect solution, but its probably the best fit. Biologically, preteens or tweens are children at the start of preadolescence and usually adolescent by the end. But sociologically (which is my interest) they are an increasingly well-defined 'between' stage. Ray Ellis 08:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * OBJECT. Now, change it back. Now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 23:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?
There's been a couple of IPs raising the age range to include 13-year-olds. I don;t know if they believe this or if they are just little kids having fun, but I wanted to make sure that everyone agreed that 13-year-olds are not preteens just to make sure. Does everyone agree that people of age 13 are no longer preteens? Jecowa 19:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Thirteen". 13-year-olds are, by definition, teenagers, and thus cannot be pre-teen.  Powers T 15:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be a 45 year old having fun as likely as a 4.5 year old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 22:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Phones?
Mobile phones were marketed towards preteens?! That sounds strange since in my country most preteens do not use mobile phones. Mobile phones are bad for them. Superboy88 20:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Most people of that age here (the UK) do have mobiles. I find it strange that in your country they don't! Loganberry (Talk) 02:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

no offence but wtf! like 90% perfect of preteen wants phone and a lot does have one (in usa)Xelas211 02:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

no offence, but some of them they are too dumb to use them properly... that's why some bigger kids steal them... (Bulgaria)213.240.234.212 19:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

All of this is weird. Most preteens do have cell phones, but they aren't bad for them. They don't use them the same way some teenagers do. They aren't possesed with them. Some just have them for convienience! They know how to use them properly too...And why would bigger kids (which in this case would probably have to be teenagers or bullies) steal someone's phone like that? They could get in big trouble too! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icytriforc (talk • contribs) 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I just got one. I turn thirteen in 20 days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 04:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

A Pre-Teen is not an adolescent
Pre-teens r not goin' thru puberty. I mean unless u were a mad-early blooma or somin'. A girl hits puberty at 11 and a boy at 13. N who in da world says that 8-year-olds r pre-teens n r even goin' thru puberty. What kind o' 8-year-old is goin' thru puberty. Dang, they must be puttin' alot o' hormones in da freakin' chicken if a little baby 8-year-old is goin' thru pubery. Holy Crap! --Mr. Comedian 19:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Newborn: Less than one month. Baby: One month-twleve months. Toddler: Twelve months-fourty eight months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 02:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

A TEENAGER IS STILL A CHILD
I AM A TEEN THAT LIKES 2 STILL B CONSIDERED A CHILD!!!!!!!! N I STILL AM 1!!!!!!!!!!!!! mAN THAT JUST TICKS ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A CHILD IS ANYONE UNDER 21!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHADDA HECK IS RONG WIT' U GUYZ. N PLEASE, 8 N 9 R NOT PRE-TEENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT SAYZ THAT MOST PRE-TEENS KNO ABOUT SEX, WHAT KIND OF AN 8 YEAR OLD KNOZ ABOUT THAT CRAP!!!!!!! N WIT' DA MOBILE FONZ, WHAT KIND O' A SPOILED BRAT WOULD HAV A MOBILE FON AS A PRE-TEEN!!!!!!!!! IF U PEOPLE HAD A FON AS A PRE-TEEN, THEN UR MAD SPOILED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A TEEN IS A CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. Comedian (talk • contribs) 00:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

1: Whatever. 2: We noticed. 3: A child is nine and under. 4: An eight year old is a child. A preteen is 10-12. 5: Umm... about 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% percent of sixth graders have cell phones. I'm one of the unhypnotized few. 6: A CHILD IS A CHILD. 7: ya u serily gots 2 no how 2 tipe w/o lookin lyke u dumb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 22:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I want to say that a teenager is not necessarily a child. An 8-year-old, however? Definitely a child. And I have something to say in the section below titled Just stop this. Flyer22 23:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A nine year old should know that sex exists, and it is where babies come from. OrangeAipom (talk) 11:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

`8 year olds can, as you so "eloquently" put it, know about that "crap"

Also, can you spel sppel spell?.

Try no caps lock.

And not as many exclamation! points!

I'm a seventh grader, I don't have a cell either, and I can spell, know when to use all caps (never, ever) and can spell.

Luna —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.190.199.242 (talk) 19:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I AM A TEEN THAT LIKES 2 STILL B CONSIDERED A CHILD!!!!!!!! N I STILL AM 1!!!!!!!!!!!!! mAN THAT JUST TICKS ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * What you personally like to be considered as is irrelevant to the definition of preadolescence in general.


 * A CHILD IS ANYONE UNDER 21!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * Childhood encompasses not just legal definitions and your personal opinion but physical, emotional and intellectual development as well. Lumping such a diverse group into such a broad category is flawed.


 * IT SAYZ THAT MOST PRE-TEENS KNO ABOUT SEX, WHAT KIND OF AN 8 YEAR OLD KNOZ ABOUT THAT CRAP!!!!!!!
 * A well-informed 8-year-old who knows about his or her own biological origins, for one.


 * N WIT' DA MOBILE FONZ, WHAT KIND O' A SPOILED BRAT WOULD HAV A MOBILE FON AS A PRE-TEEN!!!!!!!!!
 * A "spoiled brat" who wishes to easily keep in touch with others, for not just social but safety reasons as well, perhaps. Also, the proper application of a question mark as differentiated from an exclamation mark is an important aspect of English punctuation.


 * A TEEN IS A CHILD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * You may be. Doesn't mean everybody else has to conform to your opinion. Also, most Wikipedia editors will understand the great emotional passion inherent in this statement without the need for a flood of exclamation marks, even if they don't quite grasp the nonexistent logic involved.


 * Also, for the sake of not giving fellow Wikipedia editors headaches which may just intensify their already deeply negative responses to your nonsense, please at least attempt to type in a standard that would enable you to pass a Primary Two spelling test. I remember that when I was 8 (about 4 years ago, so the standard hasn't changed that much), one of the spelling words was "phone". Please at least try to pass this test. Thank you.


 * -- WP holic 11:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this pagesupposed to be about the stage human development? We're kind of getting worked up over nothing. And plus, while a teen may be a child, they are at a different stage of development then little kids. Icytriforc (talk) 20:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Please stop!
A pre-teen is 10-12. Not 8-12. An 8-year-old is not a pre-teen. C'mon dudez. --Mr. Comedian 19:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree! A preteen is 10-12. Or 9-12. But not 8! NOT GRADE 3! 3rd graders are not preteens. They are children, still playing with imaginary swords and thinking they are superheroes. Qsung 09:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree too! I also think preadolescence is a bit different the preteens considering the fact that girls hit puberty earlier then boys. Either way, how could anyone consider an 8-year old a preteen or preadolescent?! Just look at pictures of 8- year olds compared to 11 and 12-year olds! I consider them a preteen once they hit double digits. Preadolescence would start at about 10 or 11 for girls and about 11 or 12 for boys.Icytriforc (talk) 01:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

"Experiencing Limerence or Puppy Love."
Shouldn't this be in child? I'm not the only one who's had crushes at five. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 02:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It should b in both cuz most people dont relly kno "true love" untill they like 17 or somin'. I mean a lil' girl mite hav a tiny crush ona lil' boy, n a preteen girl mite hav a crush thatz a lil' stronga than the lil' kid crush. But it relly aint nothin' serious 'till like 17 or somin'. --Mr. Comedian 02:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Please use real better english please. I cannot understand a word you are saying. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sure one could work it out if they spent a little bit of time, although I agree that it is undesirable. The comment read:
 * "It should be in both because most people don't really know 'true love' until they are 17 or something. I mean, a little girl might have a tiny crush on a little boy, and a preteen girl might have a crush that's a little stronger than the little kid crush. But it really isn't anything serious until '17 or something'. Mr. Comedian 02:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)"
 *  Daniel  05:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Nah...i think it should be okay. I mean for a child crushing on someone they probably wont feel any emotions of much. Probably for like 10, 11, 12 year olds they probably might start having complicated feelings, s'like probably a bit bigger--okay, maybe much bigger. And they might start behaving differently towards crushes, so...yeah. Just what my 11-12 year old friends say. What I say? I don't know! No one makes me feel giddy inside yet..maybe someday. Qsung 09:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh brother. Yore bad at translation:

It should be in both because most people don't really know "true love" until they, like, 17 or something. I mean, a lil' girl might have a tiny crush on a lil' boy, and a preteen girl might have a crush that's a little stronger than the little kid crush. But it really isn't anything ain't nothing serious until like '17 or something'

Well, actually, some preteens start dating, usually starting in about sixth-grade. Not all, but some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icytriforc (talk • contribs) 21:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Whatever, I don't care
Even though I totally disagree that 8 and 9 are preteens. I'm fine with it. Just keep it that way. You know, I thought I would be helpful by becoming a member, but everyone seems to hate me just for disagreeing with them. Forget it. I just might never look at this article again. I probobly cried a little even. Yes, I cry. Everyone cries when they feel like everyone hates them. Even us comedians cry. I don't care if any of you insult me all you want. I'm just a kid and you guys deffinatly are not good with kids. I'll just stick to TV articles now. At least there they think I'm helpful. --Mr. Comedian 12:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey man I totally agree! 8 year olds arent preteens. Preteens are like 5th and 6th graders. I'm not sure about 4th graders, i still remember that some guys still played imaginary fighting. Qsung 09:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I know, right. How is an 8 year old a preteen? It just makes no sense. 8 year old's are pratically little babies, well, in my opinion. But I still do consider preteens to be children as well as teenagers(up to 18). But again, that's just my opinion. But this is how I think the life stages go: baby(0-1), toddler(2-5), middle childhood(6-9), preteen(10-12), teen(13-19, duh), young adult(18-34), middle age(35-64), old(65+). Thanks for argreeing with me, bro. --Mr. Comedian 00:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

0-1.5= Newborn/Baby 1.6-4= Toddler 5-9= Child 10-12= Preteen 13-19= Teenager, not adolescent, TEENAGER. 20-30= Young adult 31-50= Middle age 51+= Old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 03:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, but that's your opinion. But I mean, your calling 51-64 old people. That's cruel. So many kids my age have parents in thier 50's. That's not that old. The legal age for a senior is 65+. But I don't get it. What makes people say that those ages 10-17 are not children. I just don't get it. I feel a child is one who is not physically and mentally mature. Anyone under 18 are usually physically and mentally immature. Sure, a teen is almost mature. But they are not 100%. I know 10 year olds that are more mature than 16 year olds. I mean so many teens are getting into drugs and stuff. I don't do it, but I know so many who do. A 10 year old even knows to stay away. They feel no peer presure. So many kids my age feel they have to do things so they fit in, SAD. --Mr. Comedian 22:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * And in this section, before commenting in the Just stop this section, I want to say that a 17-year-old is not a child, and that an 18-year-old is no mentally or physically different than a 17-year-old...unless in certain circumstances...such as one or the other being mentally disabled. Flyer22 23:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Mr. Comedian, the problem with this site is that it really doesn't matter what your or my opinion is. What matters are the opinions of experts, in this case, developmental researchers. And to say that 10-year-olds are immune from peer pressure is foolishness, anyway. Artiste-extraordinaire 14:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Who's more of an expert on a preteen... than the preteen herself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 03:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * But everyone else here WAS a preteen, or still is. And you can't be an expert on yourself. It's just like saying that you know a lot about yourself and your anatomy, but you have no idea about anything on the human body......Come to think of it, why are we even arguing about the age of old people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qsung (talk • contribs) 16:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but in the olden days, ten year olds didn't have cell phones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 01:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's because they were too impractical to carry around back then. OrangeAipom (talk) 02:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Just stop this
It is ridiculous to be arguing about it. I think, if you consider yourself a pre-teen, your a freaking preteen. If you think you are a kid, you are a kid. All people under 18 are by law children, or else we could vote. If you want to say you are mature, say you are mature, and say you are a teen. If you are 13, you are technically a teen. BUT, if you don't want to be, you don't have to be. And if you are arguing like this, you are childish. Just stop arguing, because being a kid is what you want to be, and if you want to believe that, DONT READ THIS ARTICLE. -- Gen. S.T. Shrink  *Get to the bunker*  23:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, stop all this arguing. Try to come to a better ground concerning this article, so that it can be free to edit again. Flyer22 23:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You are all right. I'll stop arguing, this time I mean it. We should all just stop. If we see something we disagree with we should put it on the discussion page and see how others feel about it before making any edits at all. --Mr. Comedian 01:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

A Great Idea
Hey, I have a great idea. I've read the article as it is, and I've read the talk page. Neither are particularly impressive. How about instead of vaguely describing what pre-adolescents are like and what age it actually encompasses (since it's different for individuals), people include information like the theories of developmental psychologists. One is Jean Piaget, and his theory of cognitive development which includes the pre-adolescent thinking stage. Then there's Erik Erikson's theory of psychosocial development, and Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development, which is taking place during pre-adolescence. Have fun. Artiste-extraordinaire 14:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ooh. Or you could just shut up and let US post what WE are.
 * Get a Myspace page if you really need to define yourself on the internet.Artiste-extraordinaire 03:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.94.145 (talk) 00:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible that upper/lower primary classes can define the actual age group which a preteen falls in?
Okay, sorry for the really long title. But anyway, I was just thinking. I think in some schools, they seperate lower primary (K-G3) from upper primary (G4-G6) So, saying that, does grade 4, 5, and 6 part of the preteen group while Grade 3 (8 year olds) isn't? If 8 year olds were preteens then would it mean that upper primary would include 3rd graders, who by a Canadian curriculum do not learn about sexual intercourse until 4th grade. So I'm just thinking:


 * Kindergarden - 3rd grade (ages 4-8 is childhood whatever.
 * Grade 4 - 6 (ages 9-12) is preadolescense era.

I'm not so sure if Upper primary and lower primary seperates Preteen to Child, but if it does it means that we would have to change the age group of this to 9-12 instead of 8. My dictionary also says 9. What do you think? 219.73.17.229


 * I sorta agree with you. But I'm no expert, we'll just wait for the real guys to make the decision. Qsung 05:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Think about it this way: what about societies where children don't have institutionalised, grade-style educations? "Preteen" and "adolescent" and "child" aren't concepts which have been invented to describe what level of schooling a person's in. If anything, it's the other way around. Artiste-extraordinaire 14:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, agreed. Thanks.

Age Dispute
The article has been blocked until this trivial matter about whether 'preteen' starts at 8 or 10 is resolved. (Personally I'd rather the article be moved to 'preadolescence', since 'teen' is a marketing rather than a human development term, but whatever.) The "my opinion" attack never solved anything, so I'm going to put forward some actual research. And I'll try to make it understandable, because I know young people are involved in this discussion. There are three major theories (that I'm familiar with; I'm by no means an expert) about child development. All of them are stage-based, and there is a stage for 'preadolescence', or what used to be called 'late childhood'. Also, 'stages of development begin at different ages for different people; it is absurd to say that ANY age is the beginning of preadolescence; the best we can do is just give a general guide.' Each of those models suggests that the stage between childhood and adolescence begins around 8 years old, or maybe earlier. I don't think there's any basis to put it at 10 years old, just because in some places sex ed begins in 4th grade. Sex ed continues through high school, so why not say that the teenage years start at ten? (Don't say thirteen is the logical start for that, because there are reasons 11 and 12 don't end in 'teen'.) And independence from parents and growing pop culture interests don't really count either, because to an 8 year old, they are more independent than a 6 year old is, and interests in pop culture change throughout life; there's no reason to make 10 a demarcation line. Artiste-extraordinaire 15:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Piaget looked at how ways of thinking developed as a person grows to adulthood: the 'concrete operational stage' of thinking covers about 7-11 years old. It involves the development of the ability to see multiple aspects to a problem, to see other peoples' perspectives, and the new ability to organise and classify things (which explains why card collecting and the Pokemon phenomenon is so popular with this age range). People this age can't understand complex ideas, especially if they don't have a physical (or concrete) example in front of them, and can't think hypothetically.
 * Erikson saw life as a series of 'psychosocial crises', for example a mid-life crisis or an identity crisis in adolescents. It's about how one relates to the people around them. The dominant crisis for people about 7-12 years old is Industry vs. Inferiority. People this age are faced with many new skills they are taught at school or home, and new and complex systems of rules and dealing with society, because they're being treated as less of a baby than they were before. Their peers are going through the same thing, and the problem they face is whether they are as good at these new roles as their peers.
 * Kohlberg looked at moral development, and the different thought processes of someone when faced with a moral dilemma (like should a poor man having to steal medicine to save his wife). A young person might think things simply, like "trying to avoid punishment", or "because I want to / it will make me feel good". They differ from an adolescent and many adults, who have deeper understanding of moral consequences. Early adolescents often work on a peer-oriented approach, the "other people will approve if I do this", which develops into the law & order approach: "because those are the rules/law". So that's what the distinction is there.


 * Are you saying that anyone recieving sexual education is a teenager? Anyway, while these studies of young people are interesting and would go well in the article, none of them attempt to define a preteen. I agree with your suggestion to move this article to "preadolescence," and it looks like a proposal for such a move as already been passed. Jecowa 02:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

pre•teen
adjective [ attrib. ] of or relating to a child just under the age of thirteen. noun a child of such an age.:

pre•ad•o•les•cent
adjective (of a child) having nearly reached adolescence.of, relating to, or occurring in the two or three years preceding adolescence : Mozart's preadolescent sonatas. noun a preadolescent child. DERIVATIVES pre•ad•o•les•cence noun

pre•teen
adj.  Relating to or designed for children especially between the ages of 9 and 12 : preteen clothing.Being a child especially between the ages of 9 and 12 ; preadolescent.n. A preadolescent boy or girl. Also called subteen.

pre•ad•o•les•cence
n. The period of childhood just before the onset of puberty, often designated as between the ages of 10 and 12 in girls and 11 and 13 in boys.

pre•teen
noun a boy or girl not yet 13 years old  adjectiverelating to or produced for children especially in the 9 to 12 year-old age group &#60;preteen fashions&#62;being younger than 13 

pre•ad•o•les•cence
noun the period of human development just preceding adolescence; specifically : the period between the approximate ages of 9 and 12

age dispute resolution proposal
In the edit war the age was being changed back and forth between "8-12" and "10-12." Maybe we could comprimise and make it "9-12." Both The American Heritage and the Merriam-Webster dictionaries define a preteen as a person in the age range of "9-12." Jecowa 02:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I feel that is a great idea. --Mr. Comedian 17:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

How about widening to the broadest definition (7-13) for which there are credible citations (yes I know that 13 year olds are actually teenagers) and point out that the precise definition is still a matter of dispute (by real academics, not just us). Ray Ellis 11:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Why do you think the word "preteen" should encompass people who are actually teenagers? I thought everyone would agree that the term "preteen" only refers to people under thirteen. Jecowa 12:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem is that a number of words with broadly similar meanings redirect here, including Preadolescent and Tween (the first of which definitely isn't age-specific). I got here by typing in Tween. Secondly, its not what I think, but how the word(s) are being used in academic and other forums that are the issue. If it was down to me I would lock the definition off at 10-12s, but that's just my personal opinion and experience - and its people thinking only of their personal opinions that seems to have created this edit war in the first place (no credible citations that I am aware of). Ray Ellis 15:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it would be better to use a term that doesn't categorise people by whether or not their age contains "teen." There are a few editors that would like this article moved to preadolescence. By using the term "preadolescence" for this article, thirteen-year olds are not automatically excluded. User Artiste-extraordinaire has found several physiological articles about people a wider age range than the article is currently defining. The redirecting "preteen" to "preadolescence" is also nice because it will create more consistency within article names. It would be more consistent because, as you may know, "teenager" redirects to "adolescence." I just noticed that there used to be a tween section to the preteen article, but a vandal deleted it. We should re add that when the page gets unprotected. Jecowa 22:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Have added my support to the "Preadolescence" change. Ray Ellis 08:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

definition in lead paragraph
I changed the lead of this article a bit because not all youth who hit puberty are adolescent and the adolescence article touches on that as well, thus leaving this article as defining a preadolescent as someone who has not reached puberty was a tiny bit off...and contradictory to the adolescence article that touches on that. Flyer22 (talk) 03:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you misread this sentence from the adolescence article:
 * The definition of the word adolescence is, according to Oxford, "the period following the onset of puberty during which a young person develops from a child into an adult" and according to Merrium-Webster, "the period of life from puberty to maturity terminating legally at the age of majority" and according to the American Heritage, "The period of physical and psychological development from the onset of puberty to maturity." Jecowa (talk) 10:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not misread the adolescence article, and my changing the lead of this article was not mostly based on the adolescence article. I changed the lead of this article because puberty also happens in the preadolescent years, and an 8 or 9-year-old girl who reaches puberty is not defined as an adolescent. She's not put into the same category as a 16-year-old. The Oxford dictionary, as well as the Merrium-Webster...and most dictionaries do not touch on this fact, given their purpose is to give a simple definition. I'd like to hear other editors thoughts on this instead of you reverting my edit again. To simply state that "Oh, a preadolescent is someone who has not reached puberty" is quite off. There is a such thing as precocious puberty. These children are not adolescent. Flyer22 (talk) 18:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have sources to back up your claims? New Oxford American Dictionary, 2nd Edition says that adolescence is "the period following the onset of puberty during which a young person develops from a child into an adult." The American Heritage Dictionary says that adolescence is "The period of physical and psychological development from the onset of puberty to maturity." Merriam-Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary, eleventh edition says that adolescence is "the period of life from puberty to maturity terminating legally at the age of majority." Jecowa (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have sources to back up your claims? New Oxford American Dictionary, 2nd Edition says that adolescence is "the period following the onset of puberty during which a young person develops from a child into an adult." The American Heritage Dictionary says that adolescence is "The period of physical and psychological development from the onset of puberty to maturity." Merriam-Webster's Collegiate® Dictionary, eleventh edition says that adolescence is "the period of life from puberty to maturity terminating legally at the age of majority." Jecowa (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Right now this article defines preadolescence as "the years before adolescence," which is correct, but isn't very informative. If adolescence does not start when puberty does, then when does adolescence start? Jecowa (talk) 19:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sources? You mean sources that state that puberty also begins in the preadolescent years, and that puberty sometimes extends beyond the adolescent years? Sure. Here is one for puberty beginning in the preadolescent years....


 * And this next one states exactly what I was stating...or rather touching on concerning this subject: Puberty, usually occurring during adolescence, is when kids develop physically and emotionally into young men and women. Usually, this starts to happen no earlier than about 7 to 8 years of age for girls and 9 years of age for boys (the average age is about 10 for girls and 12 for boys). But what if a younger child - for example, a 5-year-old girl - begins showing the signs of puberty? How would it affect her?


 * Puberty in the predolescent years happens more often with girls, of course. Maybe we should mention how it more often applies to girls and how the factors of premature adrenarche, premature thelarche, and a higher BMI play a part.


 * And here is a source for puberty extending a little beyond the adolescent years:
 * Puberty beyond the adolescent years or rather teenage years happens more often with boys...or I should say males.


 * As for when does adolescence begin? Adolescence is usually defined as 13 to 19, but some sources state that a 21-year-old can sometimes be called an adolescent. With precocious puberty, it can be called early adolescence, but a child who is hit with precocious puberty is still defined as a preadolescent. A 7-year-old girl who reaches puberty, for instance, would not be considered an adolescent. Flyer22 (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Would agree that except in instances of precocious puberty, puberty signals the start of adolescence? Jecowa (talk) 22:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That first text calls those girls preadolescent. While they have entered into puberty, they are not adolescents. Surely, we don't define 5-year-olds who demonstrate precocious puberty as adolescents. It can be confusing as to what this article should be titled. I understand why this article was originally titled pre-teen.
 * But what I mean and the other citations that I have provided on this topic mean is what even the puberty article points out:


 * In a strict sense, the term puberty (and this article) refers to the bodily changes of sexual maturation rather than the psychosocial and cultural aspects of adolescent development. Adolescence is the period of psychological and social transition between childhood and adulthood. Adolescence largely overlaps the period of puberty, but its boundaries are less precisely defined and it refers as much to the psychosocial and cultural characteristics of development during the teen years as to the physical changes of puberty.


 * That is why the lead of this article now fits. Plenty of articles by medical experts and plenty of studies by experts in the field of human growth and development cite puberty in preadolescent children. They use the word preadolescent even though these children have reached puberty. Flyer22 (talk) 22:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry. I mistyped that. I meant to say, "Would you agree that except in instances of precocious puberty, puberty signals the start of adolescence? Jecowa (talk) 00:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure, because puberty begins at younger ages these days than what is usually thought of as the average age of puberty. Do we really define a 9-year-old girl as being a precocious pubescent, when a girl going through puberty at age 9 is now more common than it was before? And we still don't call 9-year-olds adolescents. The second definition of an adolescent in the dictionaries you cited above probably state that adolescence is "A point of development between youth and maturity." I say that, because that's the second definition of adolescence from some other dictionaries I have read over the years. Therefore, this article, as it is now, gives the first definition, but notes on how it is not always the case, how adolescence is usually defined by the onset of puberty, but not always. This article does not touch on what the puberty article states about adolescence in its lead, however. I think of puberty and adolescence as separate (as the puberty article points out), even though the two significantly overlap. One is more so about biology, and the other is more so about psychology and sociology. Thus, I feel that the lead of this article can be improved, but gives a more accurate definition of preadolescence than what it did before. Flyer22 (talk) 00:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think a nine-year-old girl would be too old to be considered to have precocious puberty. The American Medical Association Encyclopedia of Medicine (1989) says that "puberty most often starts between the ages of 10 and 12 in girls," and in boys it says "the onset is usually between the ages of 12 and 14." This page says that 7 or 8 is the earliest ages to be considered normal for girls and 9 is the earliest for boys. Mosby's Medical, Nursing, and Allied Health Dictionary, Fourth Edition (1994) says precocious puberty is "abnormally early development of sexual maturity. It is usually marked by ovulation in girls before the age of 8 and the production of mature sperm in a boy before the age of 10." The American Medical Association Encyclopedia of Medicine says the youngest mother on record to give birth to a healthy baby was only 5 years and 8 months old. The second definition of the American Heritage Dictionary says something almost just like the definition you gave. Oxford says "adolescence" comes from the Latin adolescere - meaning "grow to maturity." That sounds good about adolescence being the psychological and sociological developments. Would you agree that adolescence is the psychological and sociological changes that accompany normal puberty? Jecowa (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, all that you recently cited above is what I'm talking about. I read about that five-year-old girl, Lina Medina, here on Wikipedia before I read it anywhere else. Hmm, as for your most recent question, what way are you looking to reword the lead of this article? Give me your revision of the lead here first, of course, before making the actual change. Flyer22 (talk) 07:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's good as it is, but it would be nice to mention precocious puberty. Also, this replaces the sentence mentioning that the adolescence stage can extend beyond the teenage years in males with a sentence that give the age ranges in which puberty most often begins in girls and boys.
 * Preadolescence is a stage of human development through childhood that occurs in a child's years before adolescence. The point at which a child becomes an adolescent is usually defined by the onset of puberty, however, in some individuals (typically females) puberty can, in cases of precocious puberty, begin in the preadolescent years. Puberty is often reached by girls in the age range of 10-12 years and by boys in the range of 12-14 years. 
 * Jecowa (talk) 21:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry that it took me this long to get back to you on this. Anyway, I like the way that you worded that, but I'm still worried about saying that once a child hits puberty, they are an adolescent. I mean, with it worded that way, it can be taken to mean that a 10-year-old girl is an adolescent. It's saying that in cases of precocious puberty, puberty is reached before adolescence. But what we've discussed here is that it does not necessarily have to be precocious puberty for a person (typically a girl) to reach puberty before adolescence. Flyer22 (talk) 06:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Unprotect
Per the request here, I have poked around and found the dispute resolution is nice and civil, so I've removed protection. Have fun, but be nice. --Rifleman 82 14:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

P/S On a personal note, references to definitions may be nice. Lede seems very short; i'd imagine more can be said? --Rifleman 82 14:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I saw this article get unlocked by viewing my watchlist...and am glad that the disputes concerning this article are over...or are at least toned down. I didn't jump in or read anything going on here when it was jumping on my watchlist, but I'll most likely soon read what I missed out on. Flyer22 (talk) 03:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Preteen vs. Preadolescence
As shown in the dictionary definitions above, "preteen" and "preadolescence" are defined differently. "Preadolescence" refers to a certain number of years before puberty. "Preteen" refers to a certain number of years before age 13. While for a given individual these may be the same, they are not the same for all, and probably not for most, individuals. The first is biological defined, whereas the second is socially and numerically defined. Should these be separate articles? Wakedream (talk) 10:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I mean, we've debated what this article should be named before, and now there's a suggestion by you that the two be separated. First, as I've stated several times now, preadolescence is not only defined to be a person before he or she reaches puberty, considering that children who reach puberty at age 9 are not considered adolescent. Adolescence is more about the social changes and responsibilities resembling adulthood that one faces once they reach a certain age, usually 13 and up. And considering that a person is considered a preteen until they reach age 13, the two are not all that distinguishable. I'm not sure that an article on preteen is notable enough to stand on its own. Flyer22 (talk) 22:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response. I'm new to this debate.  Perhaps a solution is simply to expand the article. Wakedream (talk) 07:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I didn't mean to make you feel as though you should have already known everything we've discussed about this topic. Welcome to the discussion. And that's a great idea. It definitely needs expansion. Flyer22 (talk) 20:39, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Brand preference
The article currently says "Preteens generally prefer certain brands, and are a heavily targeted market of many advertisers." I remember a recent report that preschoolers thought food tasted better if they thought it was from McDonald's. Anyone got a source for this? If so, it wouldn't distinguish preteens from preschoolers. Wakedream (talk) 07:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Preadolescence a subset of childhood?
Well, since there is obviously so much controversy over the exact definition of preadolescence here is my personal opinion: Children are people 12 and under (chronologically at least, emotional and intellectual development is outside the scope of this comment). Preadolescence falls under childhood, something like 10 to 12. Preteens are an entirely different subset which happens to overlap with preadolescence. By definition (pre + teens), only people under 13 can be considered for this category. However, "preteens" seems to have a more popularly accepted meaning in the media, so perhaps it should be defined according to that meaning.

Adolescence does not have to be dependent on puberty. Here's an example: if somebody did not start puberty until age 16, does that mean that at age 15 he/she was still considered preadolescent? Or would that person be part of the adolescent age group? Just because puberty usually happens to coincide with the teenage years does not mean that they are equivalent.

This is just my opinion, what do you think? :) -- WP holic 10:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You made some similar points I made about puberty. Flyer22 (talk) 11:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Rk getting in on da discussion
Hello there i'm rksexy2finger a member of wikipedia. I joined around May of 2006 but I never used my account much because I never had time to pretty much. I'm also registered to other sites too that I used oftenly. My DOB is 11/11/91 just in case anyone wanted to know my age. Anyway I was reading through this discussion just now and figured i'd join in. There does seem to be a lot of confusion going on about puberty and adolescence around here. The 2 do differ heres why:

Puberty mostly has to do with the physical changes that boys and girls go through. A fine example of puberty would be when boys begin to develope pubic hair, armpit hair, dandruff, acne and other physical features that may require them to shower more often and use acne cream. Puberty does begin before 13 for boys and girls however usually around 13 or maybe later is when it starts to reach a higher extent.

Flyer22 I agree with what you had said about adolescence earlier in the discussion. It has a lot to do with social changes and typical teenage challenges. Challenges include an individual being unsure if what there facing is because there growing up, things such as christmas not feeling the same anymore, worrying about trying to fit into a certain clique and many others I can't think of now. You had also said usually 13 and up. That does sound right by me since I don't recall being faced with any of these challenges before 13. I'd say usually an individual begins to face these challenges sometime between there 13th birthday and 14th birthday meaning begin sometime at age 13 but it's differnt for everybody. I wouldn't say it begins on someones 13th birthday because they just turned 13 it takes time for things to develope. For some it may begin a few days after turning 13 and some not until a month or 2. The onset of adolescence is also very graudual in developing so you don't wake up one day and everything feels completely differnt.

I've also seem to notice some people are generalizing based on grade level. I feel age is more important. There are some individuals that don't turn 13 until the end of 7th grade or the summer before 8th grade. Since I have a late birthday since I was born in November I didn't turn 13 until November of my 8th grade year.

Someone please reply to my statement ASAP. I really wanna see who agrees with my statement. rksexy2finger (talk) 11:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I must add more. I have come to realize that yesterday I forgot to add some things. Oh I seemed to have noticed for a while there was controversy between 8-12, 9-12 and 10-12 and i'm glad we finally had it settled and instead added phycological developments that occur before adolescence. For one thing this category was only really coined meaning that there are features(physical and mental) that develope before a male/female enters adolescence. I may be wrong but thats what I believe in. Also someone please reformat my text I seemed to have screwed the page up a bit making you guys have to scroll over left/right side more than it was before I got here? rksexy2finger (talk) 7:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * To fix your formatting, remove the blank spaces at the start of the lines. That's what's causing the problem. Don't indent your paragraphs.  See Help:Editing for details.  --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 02:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello, Rk. Sorry that it's taken me so long to get back to you. Your statements about puberty and adolescence are pretty spot-on. Yep, pretty accurate. Flyer22 (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Self-contradiction
''Preadolescence is a stage of human development through childhood that occurs in a child's years before adolescence. The point at which a child becomes an adolescent is usually defined by the onset of puberty. However, in some individuals (typically females), puberty begins in the preadolescence years, and may extend a few years beyond the teenage years in others (typically males).''

So here we have:
 * Preadolescence is defined by puberty.
 * Children can start puberty during preadolescence.

Is it just me or does this make no sense?

If children become adolescents when they start puberty (therefore are preadolescents in the years leading on to this), then how can they start puberty in preadolescence?

Could someone more qualified than me please clarify this? -- WP holic  (user)(talk) 08:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I may be able to help you out a bit. It does seem as if adolescence and puberty and oftenly confused especially on this page. The two have similarities but do differ a bit. Heres why


 * Puberty is simiply the physical change. It developes at many differnt times for differnt humans. The process of puberty still happens during adolescence. However usually it begins in the pre-teenage years but for some it doesn't begin until 15 or 16 believe it or not. Of corse puberty doesn't reach it's highest extent until long after it began. I'm 16 right now and theres probabily still more physical features waiting to develope on me.


 * Adolescence has more to do with the social changes, mental changes, challenges and responsibilities that people begin to face from age 13 probabily up until early 20s but I wouldn't know when it ends cuz i'm only 16. I'm not saying this is the first time you face new challenges and social changes. Technically your body goes through changes from the day your born until the day you die but adolescence pretains to the changes and challenges during the transitional period between childhood to adulthood. I would say this process begins usually at age 13 but sometime between 13th birthday and 14th birthday. I wouldn't say it begins on your 13th birthday because you just turned 13. It takes time for things to develope. For some it starts a few days after turning 13 others not until about 1-4 months after turning 13. This process also comes gradually so you don't just wake up one day and feel completely differnt.


 * Pre-adolescence describes when an individual has not yet entered adolescence. 8-12, 9-12 and 10-12 are commonly used because your not yet a teen nor faced with teenage challenges but your only a few years behind.


 * I'm registered to wiki as rksexy2finger by the way.


 * Again, Rk, pretty spot-on. Great clarification. I know why people get confused, though, on the these two subjects Flyer22 (talk) 19:33, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the lead can be made even more clearer to touch on these points. Flyer22 (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Pictures?
Tihs has nothing to do with the argument but, I was thinking that maybe someone should add some pictures to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icytriforc (talk • contribs) 01:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)