Talk:Precision Group

COI tag
I have tagged this article for COI. See the tag above at bottom of beige box. A major contributor is one of a nest of very likely paid editors working for Precision Group. See COIN posting. The article needs to be reviewed carefully for NPOV (especially including omitted negative information) and valid sourcing (beware of fake sources) by independent editors before the tag is removed. If you remove, please make a note here. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:20, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
 * This article is total shit. I double checked some of the references and they don't even exist. For example ref name=":4"> Cite news|url = |title = Bonett's Rich Pickings|last = Corby|first = Stephen|date = Jul 29, 2007|work = Sunday Telegraph|access-date = |via = |page = 3}} is nowhere to be found online. CerealKillerYum (talk) 05:17, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I see it now. User:James_mccosker, an SPA, created all these Precision Group pages (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/James_mccosker&offset=&limit=500&target=James+mccosker ). He's now banned but, after spot checking the other pages, I found that they all have similar problems: fake references (or at least references that one is unable to prove exists online), statements that aren't backed by the reference, paywalled references where the URLs have been removed from citeweb, and that's after a quick glance. CerealKillerYum (talk) 05:26, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Here is every page James_mccorsker touched (excluding this page). I'm beginning my review of each page (beginning with this page).
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_Renaissance_Shopping_Centre
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_Renaissance
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144_Edward_Street,_Brisbane
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Horse_Hotel,_Surry_Hills
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Canal_Shopping_Centre
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Hotel
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pran_Central
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_Central_Plaza
 * * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacArthur_Central

CerealKillerYum (talk) 05:54, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The article needs to be rewritten. There are non-factual statements, blatant errors (it says the company was founded in 1994 in the intro and in 1995 in the first body paragraph), and tons of unprovable references. CerealKillerYum (talk) 06:07, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm removing all references pointing to The Australian. The site is not paywalled if one visits from Google but is paywalled if one visits the URL directly (and I'm assuming it'll be paywalled if one visits from Wikipedia too).CerealKillerYum (talk) 06:11, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Never mind, The Australian is paywalled from Google sometimes too. CerealKillerYum (talk) 06:12, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * AFR is paywalled too (ie http://www.afr.com/real-estate/precision-swaps-offices-for-shops-20060525-jflwz )CerealKillerYum (talk) 06:18, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Paywall references are staying. CerealKillerYum (talk) 07:06, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This page is done. Not all statements are backed by the reference. Some statements are pure puffery and the reference makes no mention of it. I'm beginning my review of the other pages. CerealKillerYum (talk) 07:42, 24 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Part of a review for COI editing should include making your own search for sources to see if any negative information has been left out; conflicted editors will (pretty much never) write anything negative about their client and will do their best to remove negative content. This is possibly more important than cleaning puffery and checking sources.  For an example compare this to this, the latter after I went out looking for more sources and revised, removed crappy press release sourcing and using stronger sourcing.Jytdog (talk) 07:46, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I just went through Google News's results for "precision group" -vishay -"financial precision group" -"the precision group" -"hon hai" and found only 1 article that's about Precision Group that's not covered already . The article was in the Summer of 2015 where the CEO stated that stalling the Chinese-Australian Free Trade Agreement would hinder economic progress. The agreement went into force in December 2015 so I don't think it's anything notable. Other than that, there was no controversy around the company or any "scam" or "lawsuit" related articles. Is there anything else that one needs to do when reviewing pages created by a COI editor? CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:06, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Jytdog Is there anything else needed when reviewing a page created by a COI editor? This page is almost done. If you just give me a checklist, I can go through all other pages and work on them too. CerealKillerYum (talk) 08:25, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Ross Makris

 * One of the interesting things I found was that this article doesn't seem to mention anything about a certain "Ross Makris" who apparently was one of the co-founders. See this source. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 12:13, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The most interesting thing about the article was that Ross Makris left his dad high and dry in 1996 right after his dad filed for bankruptcy in 1995! That's just insult to injury! Haha besides the drama, I think what should be added is that Shaun Bonett isn't the sole founder of the company. He was a cofounder and Ross Makris was the other cofounder. There might be a reason why the COI editor left that out. The fact that Ross Makris develops property in Adelaide now should be added too -- the two are competing in the Adelaide market (and maybe in Melbourne and Sydney too). Markus group and Precision group both develop shopping centers, hotels, and offices -- I'm sure these former childhood best friends have a much deeper relationship than what they're telling RBW. CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:40, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * This is definately something. The company's About Us doesn't even mention Ross Markus . CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:44, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Shaun Bonett told this interviewer that he started the company himself. The article says "The big risks, the background as a commercial lawyer and the confidence to go it alone at the age of 24 and start his property company, Precision Group, helped propel Bonett, 37, into the BRW rich list, with an estimated worth of $340 million". Again, not a single mention of Makris. CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:58, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * * User:Lemongirl942, Ross Makris is not a co-founder of Precision Group. I fact checked that article and it is incomplete. It says "Makris and Bonett started Precision in 1995 after a falling out between Makris and his father" . Note that the article said "Precision" and not "Precision Group". I did a search for Shaun Bonett Ross Makris and Ross Makris Precision Group and found a handful of results -- most of them irrelevant. The relevant one is which states "Ross Makris, started working with his father in 1987, and he founded the Precision Investment Corporation in 1995 as his own financial “vehicle”."
 * So there were 2 companies that had "Precision" in their names.
 * * One of them was Precision Group, which was started by Shaun Bonett in 1994, supported by what the current references state, and which has purchased all the various properties over the years that the article lists.
 * * The other was Precision Investment Corporation, which was started by Ross Makris in 1995 and had little activity and which was recently deregistered (see http://snpy.in/xM77B0 ).
 * This also solves the ambiguous foundation date issue: Precision Group was formed in 1994. Precision Investment Corporation was formed in 1995. CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:00, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not very convinced. This saysThe Precision Group of Companies is associated with Adelaide businessmen Mr Ross Makris and Mr Shaun Bonett. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 12:11, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't get how you're convinced that Makris was a cofounder of Precision Group. The Precision Group of Companies is a 3rd company that was registered in 2005 (see http://abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=45114949503 ). So far, there are 3 companies: 1.) Precision Group 2.) Precision Investment Corporation and 3.) The Precision Group of Companies. There are sources that say that Bonett started Precision Group. There are sources that say that Makris started Precision Investment Corporation (those sources also make no mention of Bonett starting Precision Investment Corp). And this source says that Bonett and Makris are "associated" with The Precision Group of Companies. The other text said "Makris and Bonett started Precision in 1995" so this could be The Precision Group of Companies since Precision Group was started in 1994 and Precision Investment Corporation was started by Makris (to add to the confusion, there are other companies with "Precision" in their name in the Australian Business Registry so it could be a 4th company as well). So, IMO, the burden of proof lies in whether or not Makris was involved in the Precision Group that is registered in Adelaide in 1994. All evidence points to another company that has Precision in the name. Does this help? CerealKillerYum (talk) 13:11, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I had a look at http://abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=45114949503 and it says "PRECISE GROUP OF COMPANIES (SA) PTY LTD" not "Precision Group of Companies". More importantly the "Precision Group of Companies" is the one which bought Adelaide Central Plaza. See David Jones has raised $85 million by finally selling its Adelaide Central Plaza site for $85 million to a private consortium, the Precision Group of Companies. Seems like "Precision Group of Companies" and "Precision Group" is the same. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:22, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Must have pasted the wrong URL. Here's the right one http://abr.business.gov.au/SearchByAbn.aspx?abn=19115176111 CerealKillerYum (talk) 17:28, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

But what about this then. The article in its current form states And then the cited source says The development has been sold to the Precision Group of Companies which are associated with businessmen, Mr Ross Makris and Mr Shaun Bonett. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That doesn't say that Makris and Bonett were cofounders of Precision Group. It says that the Precision Group of Companies (a company that is different than Precision Group) is associated with them. Precision Group != Precision Group of Companies. The article can't say that Makris co-founded Precision Group when sources say that Makris and Bonett are associated with a different company.CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:31, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm so that means "precision group" did not buy "Adelaide Central Plaza". Am I correct? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:15, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have a feeling that Precision Group owns Precision Group of Companies (see ). It might be that Precision Group started Precision Group of Companies just to buy Adelaide (maybe for tax purposes?), since one was founded in 1994 and the other was founded in 1997. Makris was "associated" with Precision Group of Companies -- which could mean that he helped in the purchase, was an investor, was a manager, or was a lot of other things. In fact, I'd argue that, when a journalist uses "associated with", it is more towards "not a founder" than "founder".CerealKillerYum (talk) 14:29, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Lemongirl942 Here's what we know and the conclusions that can be made from it. Does this make sense? I'm reverting CerealKillerYum (talk) 08:01, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Bonett started Precision Group in 1994
 * Precision Group of Companies was started in 1997
 * Makris and Bonett were associated with Precision Group of Company's purchase of Adelaide Central Plaza
 * Because of that, Makris is not a co-founder of Precision Group. The most that can be said about his involvement is that he helped with the purchase of Adelaide Central Plaza.
 * No it doesn't make sense. We need reliable secondary sources for all information. So now the job for you is this. Find a reliable secondary source (third party source) showing that "Precision Group of Companies was started in 1997" and "Bonett started Precision Group in 1994" and that "Bonett started Precision Group alone and Ross Markis was never involved". Please also find any citation which shows the relationship between "Precision Group of Companies" and "Precision Group". Please note, we cannot speculate. We need hard information here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:09, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Stop being aspie. Here it is:
 * Bonett started Precision Group in 1994 (Note how the journalist didn't mention anyone else, specifically Makris) - "Property rich-lister Shaun Bonett’s Precision Group... Precision, founded by Mr ­Bonett in 1994 when he was only 24"
 * Precision Group of Companies was started in 1997 - "Entity name: PRECISION GROUP OF COMPANIES PTY LTD.. Active from 01 Jul 2007"
 * Makris and Bonett were associated with Precision Group of Company's purchase of Adelaide Central Plaza - "The development has been sold to the Precision Group of Companies which are associated with businessmen, Mr Ross Makris and Mr Shaun Bonett"
 * Precision Group of Companies is related to Precision Group - "Adelaide Central Plaza is owned and managed by the Precision Group of Companies. For further information on the Precision Group visit www.precision.com.au"

CerealKillerYum (talk) 10:15, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Now if you will cease with your personal attack, let's look at your stuff.
 * Bonett started Precision Group in 1994 (Note how the journalist didn't mention anyone else, specifically Makris) Absence of proof is not proof of absence. See the sources below
 * Son of a gun
 * Once were united
 * Precision Group of Companies was started in 1997 - "Entity name: PRECISION GROUP OF COMPANIES PTY LTD.. Active from 01 Jul 2007" - Where does it say it was started in 1997? Also this is a primary source, so we don't use it.
 * David Jones press release and  They have used the terms interchangeably, so it seems they are the same company.
 * "Adelaide Central Plaza is owned and managed by the Precision Group of Companies. For further information on the Precision Group visit www.precision.com.au" Same here as well. The terms have been used interchangeably.
 * We go by sources and it seems Ross Makris was clearly involved in starting the company. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Lemongirl942 Your edit doesn't make sense because of the following:


 * Your edit said “Precision Group was founded in the 1990s as a partnership between Ross Makris and Shaun Bonett.” You derived it from Once were united, where it said “Ross Makris and Shaun Bonett used to be the best of friends and business partners."
 * The thing is, in Australia, a Partnership has a formal definition. A partnership is “an association of people who do business as partners or receive income jointly… [and] A partnership is not a separate legal entity so you and your partners are liable for all debts and obligations of the business”.
 * Once were united said “BRW understands the pair had a big falling out connected with the costs involved in splitting their business assets, including stamp duty charges relating to the purchase of Adelaide commercial real estate, which ended up costing the Makris family more than $1.5 million when the business relationship between Bonett and Ross Makris ended.”
 * So, how could it be that Bonett and Makris were in a partnership yet Makris had to pay 1.5M AUD when they split up? If it was truly a partnership, the 1.5M AUD would have been split between Bonett and Makris. Something is wrong.

I'm doing more research and will get back to you. CerealKillerYum (talk) 05:36, 17 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I just reviewed the above. the whole thing. hm.   about this last post, demanding the AFR source is using the term in its legal sense is not reasonable.  "Partnerships" in normal english take on many legal forms, including legal partnerships. Jytdog (talk) 06:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly. There's only 4 types of business structures in Australia: 1.) Company (also called Corporation in other parts of the world) 2.) Sole Proprietor 3.) Partnership 4.) Trust . If the article says that the company is a "partnership," the reader will conclude that the company's business structure is a partnership. If Precision Group is in fact registered as a Company, Sole Proprietor, or Trust, then the article has a huge error. The AFR Source might have meant something else besides the legal definition of Partnership when it said "business partners." This is especially true since it went on to say that Bonett and Makris didn't share the loss. The article can't use "partnership". CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * ? you are still over reading the source. Jytdog (talk) 13:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * No. The AFR Source is not using the term "partnership" at all. It is using the term "business partners". The article is using the term "Partnership." If an encyclopedia entry about a company says that the company "was founded... as a partnership," the reader is going to conclude that the company is registered as a partnership. So, the Wikipedia article is using the term "Partnership" in the legal sense. The SFR Source doesn't use the term "Partnership" in the legal sense and it doesn't use the term "Partnership" at all.CerealKillerYum (talk) 05:49, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * How about simply saying Precision Group was founded in the 1990s by Ross Makris and Shaun Bonett. (diff). --Lemongirl942 (talk) 06:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There's still no 100% certainty that Makris and Bonett founded Precision Group together. There's only 3 sources that mention "Precision Group" "Makris" and "Bonett"   while there are many other sources that omit Makris entirely. Let me get back to you on this CerealKillerYum (talk) 10:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes it is Verifiability, not truth Jytdog (talk) 12:22, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Verifiability, not truth says "Even the most reliable sources commit mistakes from time to time, such as misspelling a name or getting some detail wrong. Such mistakes, when found, should be ignored, and not be employed to describe a non-existent dispute." I emailed John Stensholt, Makris Group, and Precision Group. John Stensholt and Makris Group didn't get back to me. Precision Group did and released this. IMHO, it looks like the noun "Precision Group" in Son of a Gun and Once were united (both written by John Stensholt) were referring to two different companies. One was started by Bonett and the other was started by Makris. Both companies were working together and had similar names, hence why they were referred to with the same name. This explains why Bridge Carter in The Australian said "[he had] the confidence to go it alone at the age of 24 and start his property company, Precision Group." Leaving it as "Precision Group was founded in the 1990s by Ross Makris and Shaun Bonett" totally ignores Bridge Carter's article. Unless you have an argument explaining the press release and Bridge Carter's article, the article should say "Precision Group was founded in the 1990s by Shaun Bonett." There's not enough evidence to support that Makris was involved in it. CerealKillerYum (talk) 19:17, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * We have a ref saying they started it together. You need an actual ref - not a bunch of hunches - to change this.  Please present the ref or WP:DROPTHESTICK.  In any case I will not reply further here until you bring refs and if you make changes based on your hunches they will be reverted as violating policy. Jytdog (talk) 19:49, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The Australian that says that it was founded by 1 person. It's not a hunch, here's the ref once again for your reading http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/business-old/precision-timing-pays-off/story-e6frg9gx-1111117574440 and here's the quote for your comprehension "The big risks, the background as a commercial lawyer and the confidence to go it alone at the age of 24 and start his property company, Precision Group, helped propel Bonett, 37, into the BRW rich list, with an estimated worth of $340 million." CerealKillerYum (talk) 11:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for anchoring the issue again in a ref. That piece is grounded on an interview with Bonet and is less reliable for the history that the other piece, which is older and has more independent reporting. Jytdog (talk) 18:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

In November 2016, Precision Group officially issued a media release to address the differentiation between Precision Group of Companies (the company this page is actually about, owned by Bonnet) and the Precision Investment Corporation. See link here: http://www.precision.com.au/news-and-media/Media%20Release/ma20161123 If the company itself issuing a release explaining the separation of the two companies isn't enough proof, there is also an attachment of an official trademark registration included on the page, in an effort to help further differentiate the two organizations. While the source that ties both Makris and Bonett together may be reputable, it appears they made an editorial oversight here. Given the information presented in this media release, I am going to update the page to remove Mr. Makris.JonathanBentz (talk) 11:44, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You have not responded to direct questions about paid editing on your talk page, and i find it remarkable that a) the company put out a press release to "address" this and b) that you showed up here to add it. You should, and i do mean should, talk back to us on your talk page before you do more editing ,directly or indirectly. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 04:46, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Comments
I have moved this here as I don't see a need to keep an entire directory listing of properties acquired. Wikipedia is not a directory and a catalogue of properties acquired is not useful. If we go by weight here, only some of the major ones deserve to get a mention in the prose. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 11:58, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Fine with me. I added Shore City just to keep up with the convention. CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I've added links and text to the Precision Group properties that have their own pages (see above) so that those pages won't be orphaned. CerealKillerYum (talk) 12:20, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I went through a few other Wikipedia pages about Property Development Companies and it appears that it is a common practice to list properties created by the company (see    ). IMO, including all properties created by a property management company would make a page a directory but a page can include notable properties (especially if the properties are so notable that they have their own WIkipedia page). If there's no objections, I'm gonna re-add the table but only with notable properties. CerealKillerYum (talk) 08:23, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * See WP:SEWAGE and WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. We don't list properties simply because they were acquired. We go by WP:WEIGHT and add the ones for which there is significant coverage about the acquisition. Btw, all the pages for the properties were created by a paid editor (who was blocked for socking) and it is pretty clear that Precision Group is trying to promote itself on Wikipedia. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:37, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Company Formation Year
There is a discrepancy between sources on which year the company was created. This source states 1995. The company's website and other sources say 1994. Which date should be used in the article? There are more sources stating 1994.... but those sources might be inaccurate or bias as they don't mention Makris. CerealKillerYum (talk) 13:08, 24 October 2016 (UTC)