Talk:Pregnancy/Archive 1

Other Comments
I hope this is submitted properly. RE: "Human pregnancy lasts approximately 9 months between the time of the last menstrual cycle and birth (38 weeks from fertilisation)." I have reason to believe that "(38 weeks from fertilisation)." is correct, but "9 months between the time of the last menstrual cycle and birth" can only be /correct/ with the preceding "approximately". More correct would be (approx.) "40 weeks between the time of the last menstrual cycle and birth". 9 months is LESS than 38 weeks, but fertilisation occurs AFTER the last cycle, so seems incorrect. I hope this makes sense, is accurate, and is helpful.

This new article needs a lot of work, mainly summarising the sections with main articles. This has been spun out of pregnancy, which should now focus on the general topic. violet/riga (t) 23:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to come up with a decent section order but it may need revising. The interwiki links at pregnancy may also need reviewing. violet/riga (t) 23:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

One more thing - the incoming links for pregnancy need to be disambiguated. violet/riga (t) 23:16, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * This is outrageous. JFW | T@lk  21:33, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * That's hardly an actionable criticism. What do you see as "outrageous"? violet/riga (t) 21:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Ahh, I think I see. I've undone the moves that -Ril- did as I think (and others seemed to also) that human pregnancy should be the primary disambig for pregnancy.  Further, -Ril- had not fixed the redirects.  violet/riga (t) 21:57, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Violet. I thought you'd gather :-) I will firmly oppose further move attempts. This sort of monstrosities has nothing to do with NPOV, but more with notability. The vast majority of users looking up pregnancy will want human pregnancy, not the animal sort. It is HPOV (human POV), as animals cannot read an encyclopedia. JFW | T@lk  06:58, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you stating your opinion that they are not allowed to read an encyclopedia? I'm sorry but your minimalist animalist views disgust me! ;)  violet/riga (t) 08:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Guys (and gals) please cheak the statistic of 15 beats/min on the mother's heart rate. That can't possibly be right. Perhaps 15bpm increase is what was meant.
 * Yup, 15 beats/minute increase sounds more like it. Alex.tan July 5, 2005 02:14 (UTC)

The pregnancy article should create a new paragraph, on safety and health tips, to help pregnant women in self-care and to protect the health of their unborn baby. Tips and advice on physical examinations, proper nutrition, avoidance of drugs and alcohol, and what to do a premmature labor occurs. These can be helpful as a quick reference or an educational tool relating to pregnancy health. + 207.200.116.203 01:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

second trimester
The second trimiester is is the midway point of pregnancy, so most women do not feel as sick as before and not yet uncomfortable when she starts to have other aches. She begins to handle her growing belly, but can experience mood swings depending on how she is. Most pregnant women are furthermore relieved from the first 3 months, then plans to handle six more by wearing maternity or larger clothes, and emotionally set to focus on the health of her unborn baby. Sexual activity remains generally safe to mother and baby, except not advised by her doctor/OB-gyn. A large proportion of pregnant women continue normal sexual relations with their spouses. Some feel more excited during the second trimester while others do not react this way : there is no rule but a major male phantasm.+ 207.200.116.203 01:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

third trimester
Some women in their third trimester experience strong heartburn, indigestion, intestinal gas, upset stomach, constipation and reports of occassional vomiting, but different from nausea or "morning sickness". Her body may be preparing for the birthing process, so she could experience symptoms related from the size of the fetus pushs onto her stomach or intestines. In 36 to 38 weeks, the position of her belly, actually the uterus "drops" as the fetus' head presses down on her cervical/pubic area. This is a natural response to deliver a baby normally unless otherwise a complication occurs. This may call for an induced labor or a cesarean section in order to easily and safely deliver the baby.+ 207.200.116.203 01:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Organization
As a matter of style and form, I'd suggest making Andrew's vertical list into two-colums (easier to read, saves space), and moving lists down below toward the middle. (Ive just done numer 2)

The reason for the move was that definitions arent always prerequisites for the average end user, and obstruct reading. We can make each entry a linked footnote, which will take some time. I would do it now, but Im done for today. Sinreg, and happy editing, St|eve 19:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

colloquial
The 'Colloquial' section should migrate to wiktionary 00:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)~

Plus it is so massively out of date!! No one in "England" (a horrendous americanism for the UK or Great Britain) would say "with child"; that's arcane! "Knocked up", "up the duff", "bun in the oven" etc maybe, but "with child"?!??? larkim 16:25, 1 January 2005 (GMT)

You're definitely wrong there larkim. Dappled Sage 00:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Dating apregnancy
I changed the section on dating pregnancy to clarify a bit. I think that the section is still a bit awkward, mixing use of "age" and "date", and therefore "before" and "older". Happyharris 18:29, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand this part: "Approximately 3.6% of all mothers deliver on the due date predicted by LMP, and only 4.7% give birth on the day predicted by ultrasound." Especially the "only 4.7%" confuses, since that value is lower than the 3.6% it is contrasted to. Generally, these values sound quite low. Shouldn't we reach 100% if we add them?


 * Not necessarily. Some mothers may not give birth on the due date predicted by LMP OR ultrasound. --DearPrudence 07:16, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Organization
I can't help but feel this article is a bit of a mess, and an important one. Anyone feel like working on a reorganization? Trollderella 17:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Holy hell she's right. This article needs quite a bit of work. Can we get going on establishing a sufficient organizational structure? Heres my attempt:


 * 1) Introduction (duh
 * 2) *definition
 * 3) *summary of start, end
 * 4) Pregnancy in summary
 * 5) *myths
 * 6) *coping mechanisms (need a better term here, but training classes, simluated pregnancies, etc.)
 * 7) Time line
 * 8) *first
 * 9) *second
 * 10) *third
 * 11) *birth
 * 12) health risks
 * 13) *to mother
 * 14) *to fetus
 * 15) *failed pregnancies
 * 16) history of understanding
 * 17) *fetal development
 * 18) see also


 * I like this - can we work on it on Talk:Pregnancy/new? Trollderella 17:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Pregnancy should also address fetal development in full I think


 * Very good. Tell me when the pregnancy article is reorganized. The last time the page was edited, there was no "history of understanding" and there has been great strides in pregnancy: the studies of embryology and fetal development. Surgeries performed on the fetus is a reality to correct medical problems such as spina bifida and the surrogate mother phenomenon that can remind us: What if that women is having some others' baby? LoL. Please, put more in depth info. in the pregnancy article. --Mike D 26 07:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

third trimester is a distinct living person???
I(no expert on medecine,law or pregnancy) haven't heard of anywhere that considers a third trimester foetus "a distinct living person". Is this really true?, in some countries there are extra legal protections for third trimesters foetus's but are they really considered a person anywhere? I thought this was pushed for (by pro-life groups)in some states of the US but not actually law. Anyone know the truth?


 * You have no idea how stupid some of the conservatives are that we have to deal with here. :( --66.229.183.101 03:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Please achieve some consensus on this talk page from other users before you continue to change the word, or rework the entire sentence to leave out the possibility of implying anything without relaying the information. Perhaps use "many" instead of "most" or "often." JHMM13 (T | C) [[Image:Flag of the United States.svg|25px| ]] [[Image:Flag of Germany.svg|25px|  ]] 04:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I had had a lousy day (not that that's any excuse.) I didn't really pay attention to the details of what I was editing and I should have. --66.229.183.101 05:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not a third trimester fetus is "a distinct living person", shouldn't it be treated as one & be provided every chance to live at that point? I would hope that would be the goal at that late stage of pregnancy, so I don't understand why the verbiage is an issue. Just my 2-cents.

I guess my comment really has nothing to do with the current subject, but I'd just like to know exactly why it's so outrageous to say that an embryo/fetus is a human. I don't mean to start an argument (though I probably will), but I just want to hear a different point of view. Most scientists would say that if you have human genes, you're a human, even if you are just a few (one?) cell/s across.
 * So a scraping of still-living skin cells are a human being? As are the countless zygotes that don't make it to implantation? Is an egg or sperm, by extension, half a human being? I'd be one of the first to say that a third-trimester fetus is human by all(or at least the vast majority) of the criteria by which we define humanity, but there's a sizeable difference between an unborn fetus and, say, a lymphocyte. At any rate, the nomenclature is the nomenclature, and the law is the law. If any laws have expressly defined third-trimester fetuses as human beings, leave the article unchanged, or maybe expand it to clarify which courts have ruled to that effect. If this is not the case, a minor edit is probably in order. 85.64.246.205 20:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * All that is truly important here is that Wikipedia treat this topic with a Neutral Point of View. An unverifiable assertion ("distinct living person") is just that -- an assertion.  Wikipedia is an encyclopdiea, not an Op-Ed page. Heathhunnicutt 22:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Image
It confused me for quite some time that the picture says "monat", which I now assume is German for "month". The picture is great, but can change it to English?--Cuchullain 03:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Fixed (not by me). Rmhermen 21:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

"Unborn"?
I believe the use of the term "unborn" is more political than scientific, and is not NPOV. Can we revise that? or get a discussion going here on its validity? I've only ever heard it used by anti-choicers, and in a political context. XINOPH | TALK 17:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * My perception as well. It's not a medical term.  If it is, sources please.  It's not defined in Stedman's Medical Dictionary, nor is it used to define any other term.  Same for Medical Terminology: An Illustrated Guide.  The sole purpose seems to provide a rhetorical argument for a baby being a baby in the fetus or embryo stage.--Pro-Lick 16:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If it is "not" born yet, it is "unborn". I cannot see how the anti-life people have a problem with this.68.17.252.203 07:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "Unborn" may not be innately biased, but "anti-life" isn't exactly the sort of term I'd use on Wikipedia. Though I think I fought something like that at the end of Phantasy Star II. Political connotations aside, I suppose there're grounds for saying that it implies "not yet born", and therefore "waiting/intended to be born". I mean, you wouldn't call a footstool "unborn", despite its never having been born. . Not that any of this matters, really. Offensive or otherwise, it's not a medical term. 85.64.246.205 20:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The picture at the top of the article is not appropriate, will the user who put that garbage there please remove it, thanks.


 * This uncivil comment was posted by bobsmith319. The picture has been discussed and the concensus view is that it illustrates 'pregnancy' perfectly adequately.  If you are offended by the image then please don't visit an uncensored encyclopaedia.  I find your view that pregnant women are 'garbage' particularly offensive. Maustrauser 02:01, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello, I wanted to let you know that I am very sorry for my actions. I did not mean pregnant women are garbage. I ment that the photo was garbage, which I truly apologize for. Thank you. bobsmith319

Longer pregnancies in Caucasians
The excerpt "Caucasian women are more likely to have a longer pregnancy than other women...a Caucasian woman's first pregnancy lasts an average 274 days from conception (288 days from the last menstrual period)" makes an unwarranted extrapolation of the findings in the source this article cites. The source (  Mittendorf R, Williams MA, Berkey CS, Cotter PF. The length of uncomplicated human gestation. Obstet Gynecol 1990;75:929-32. .) mentions that "uncomplicated, spontaneous-labor pregnancy in private-care white mothers is longer than Naegele's rule predicts," which simply means the private-care white women cited in the study had longer pregnancies than Naegele's rule would predict. There is no comparison to private-care women of other groups, much less a comparison to other women who did not receive private care during their pregnancies. I have therefore deleted the misleading passage. Kemet 30 March 2006
 * Good edit. Systemic problem with editors adding text from a single source as a definitive fact. FloNight   talk  22:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I wanted to let you know that I am very sorry for my actions. I did not mean pregnant women are garbage. I ment that the photo was garbage, which I truly apologize for. Thank you.

Peeved regarding image
I am pretty annoyed that the stages of labour diagram was removed without any discussion. I spent some time on making it appropriate for publication. It was a US Government image and therefore not a copy-vio. Can anyone explain why it was deleted plaese. Maustrauser 23:55, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It appears as if the diagrams on the government website are copyrighted. Here is the discussion from the common . I thought these were very good images. I think it would be very helpful if we could find an adequate replacement. Any ideas? Anyone an illustrator?--Andrew c 14:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Trimester
I support moving the Trimester article into this one... if I have some support I'll do it. Joshuagross 20:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely not. As it is, people are making edits to promote pro-life points of view, and breaking this page up into a multitude of pages just gives more cracks for the Biased-Point-of-View people to sneak in through, Joshua. Heathhunnicutt 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Get a grip- the man was only asking- sheesh. 58.178.34.122 20:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I also do not support the merge. Cburnett 05:37, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * How on earth is merging Trimester (which discusses the timeline of a pregnancy), to the section here that discusses the timeline of a pregnancy -- promoting any view, either pro-life or pro-choice? It's simply a matter of redundancy and organization.  The first response above makes me believe s/he felt the article was about to be split up, not merged...  I support a merge.  Can we get more reasons as to why duplicate info shouldn't be merged, rather than just "I don't support it"? --Rehcsif 14:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The trimester article has no real need to discuss pro-life/choice issues, but for one thing the fetus is a developing organism that shall appear into the world. It sounds more neutral while in the avoidance of terms "baby" to promote pro-life and "not living" to the pro-choice side. I understand most pregnant mothers talks about the "baby" is moving, kicking, breathing, etc. then will rule out the "baby" hasn't officially came to life in the eyes of society and legality. Wikipedians know well the best way to solve the issue isn't approved in Pregnancy article. Let's keep the article relevant in the biological, medical and physiological discussion. Political statements left by members or anon IPs are inappropriate and shall be removed.--Mike D 26 07:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. - I support merging or redirecting the Timester article to this article or section. - Cybergoth 21:55, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge them. The trimester subject makes the most sense within the pregnancy article. Doc502 03:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Better late than never, trimester is officially merged. Tocharianne 04:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Part 1
I move to replace the current image, "the silhouette of a pregnant woman" with one that is a little more work safe or get rid of it all together if one cannot be found. 12.205.90.191 02:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * One, there's really nothing wrong with it. Two, it's a fabulous picture.  Three, Wikipedia is not censored for those of delicate sensibilities.  Nandesuka 03:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Work safe? Is it illegal to look up an encyclopaedia at work?  Absolutely keep! Maustrauser 05:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to remove. What's the point of nudity? Anyone? Does it add to the usefulness of the article? Um, no. It'll offend a lot of people, which alone isn't reason to remove something, but in matters like this it's just pointless. Definitely remove. --Joshuagross 05:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How is a pregnant woman offensive? All those offended should remember that they were born of woman!  If you look up pregnancy in an encyclopaedia you expect to see a pregnant woman.  Viewer beware.  Leave as is. Maustrauser 06:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, don't be foolish. Don't you think it's a little unnecessary that her full nude body is in view? How does that add to the article? It's so dark you can't even see anything that WOULD be important - just her breasts sticking out and her belly... wow, very educational. --Joshuagross 06:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly. "It's so dark you can't see anything..."  So what is the problem.  Do you call all people who disagree with you foolish? Maustrauser 11:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe he was trying to say we should get a better-lit nude picture. Heathhunnicutt 18:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, of course. Can anyone arrange a better lit nude photo?  Mirasmus 03:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Keep it the way it is ... pregnancy is a natural feminine thing and the photo shows the beauty of a woman carrying a baby in her body. Whoever finds the photo graphic or uncomfortable, please understand the artistic tastes and innocence of the photograph. Note the woman model permitted herself to get her picture taken in this state, but the tint was darkened to preserve her privacy. + 207.200.116.203 01:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Many different language versions of the pregnancy article don't carry the nude preg. model photo, like I mentioned in the Espanol/spanish version. The majority of complaints in the English speaking world appears to come from Americans. As a person from the U.S. I'm proud of my country's freedoms to discuss, disagree and figure their own minds on that photo. The British, Australians and Canadians seem to been lax on the issue, but Americans by comparison are more conservative in some social and moral matters. The U.S. has a greater variety of opinions, then we deal with high volume of social controversy and why it's more divisive to discuss politics and morality, out of all places, in America. I'm from California, where we tend to get liberal and whatever social changes take place in Cal. ends up spreading outward across the country. Sure, democracies have free speech to make a fair mature arguement, but the nude preg. photo isn't generating high opposition, but some people don't like the photo, in the UK and Europe. The nude preg. photo is not better-lit in order not to display private parts of the model's body, so everyone can view, but not all won't be disturbed or offended. + 207.200.116.203 01:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, the second picture is great, I think. Agap afima 23:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The picture surprised me, but its a natural photo. This is how we are born. Maybe add a Warning template at the top, people do take it offensive, especially parents. --Yancyfry jr 04:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I dont see a reason to not put the term trimester in the pregnancy section since it is the most common form of use.

Part 2
It sounds like some people want to keep the photo up partly to spite those who are offended by it. But regardless, it personally caught me by surprise. Although there is absolutely nothing inherently "bad" about a pregnant woman, the picture can be shocking for those who are not expecting it and are not used to coming across nudity in their daily browsings. Further, there will always be those psychos out there who will take this photo in a less-than-pure way, and I really don't want see a good Wikipedia article contributing to that, however innocent it may be. A nude photo will offend some and can cause a stir, subsequently distracting from the article itself; a more covered photo will offend virtually no one and will not result in any lost educational effect. To me, it's a no-brainer. -- Tim 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If the consensus wants the pic gone I'll leave it be when people remove it; I only reverted to add it back because the consensus seemed to me to keep the picture and there's no policy to remove it (indeed, the policy seems to indicate it should stay). I really don't care; I just remembered this debate and noticed someone changed it again. Kuronue 15:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's kind of hard to judge consensus in a forum like this, but personally, I would err on the safe side. If nudity was crucial to the article, or at least added something significant to it, then by all means the image should stay. However, I do not think that applies in this case. I wouldn't exactly look at the clothed woman and think "what the heck is going on here?" and then reach full clarity upon seeing the nude picture. Tim 17:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's a vere nice picture and I oogled at it a bit. :-) But, hey, for all the talk it's generating, replace it with a more clothed one! As Tdowling states, a more covered photo won't cause the article to lose any value. Or, at least, for those whose sensibilities are easily offended - or who browse wiki at work and don't want the boss walking in on them looking at naked women - move the picture lower down the page. Poweroid 17:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't realize at the time that this was a hot topic. I just was so surprised at work that I just removed it right away.  I think that the nudity certainly should be removed.  If someone needs to see what a naked pregnant woman looks like, maybe a link should be provided.  However, there is no justifiable reason to keep a naked picture of anyone - whether man or woman - pregnant or not - on a highly visited encyclopedia site.  Wikipedia should certainly be work friendly - nudity is not. Itsstaceyl 19:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The oft-cited example is frenum piercing -- caution, definatly not work-safe. The picture there is of exactly what the article is speaking, and you'd be hard-pressed to find one that illustrates it without being "obscene". Nudity sometimes is needed in an encyclopedia. This article? who knows. Kuronue 20:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it appears to me that we don't have good rationale for keeping the photo, in that it does not add new information or meaningfully supplement any material that is already there. I move to take it down. -- Tim 15:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree. A nude pregnant photo shows clearly the baby in the belly without clothing distorting the image.  Nudity and pregnancy go very much together.  Women nearly always give birth naked when they aren't forced onto their back in western hospitals.  Conception nearly always takes place with both the male and female naked.  If you go to an article about pregnancy you surely must EXPECT to see nakedness.  You might even see a baby's head crowning in the vagina.  If you are browsing pregnancy at work then you should expect to see human anatomy.  How can it possibly be considered offensive?  The vast majority of readers entered the world naked and down a vagina.  What's the problem?  This image has been here for many, many months.  This article has been viewed by thousands of people and yet a small minority of people who find nudity offensive now wish to remove it.   Remember WP is not censored   Read the WP disclaimer at the bottom of the page.  It says: Wikipedia contains many different images, some of which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers. For example, some articles contain graphical depictions of violence, or depictions of human anatomy. Maustrauser 00:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Nudity and pregnancy go together just as much as nudity and being alive go together. Personally, I did *not* expect to see nudity in this article, especially as the first thing that I saw on the screen. Showing a baby breaching during childbirth is one thing - showing a naked pregnant woman is another. A bare-bellied but otherwise clothed woman would be no less effective in conveying what pregnancy physically looks like, and the fact that this is simply an amateur (i.e., not clinical) photo makes it seem that much less appropriate. Lack of censorship on WP is irrelevant, IMHO; would it be just as okay to include a photo of a nude non-pregnant woman in order to compare? I think that people would generally be a little uncomfortable with that, yet the utility of that picture is the same.
 * At least for now, I would really like to at least move the photo in question to a place lower on the page. -- Tim 05:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I still cannot fathom how a naked woman (who is rather discretely photographed in profile) can be considered offensive. A clothed body would show the distorted shape of her belly and not show how her breasts have changed during pregnancy.  Those breasts are going to be used for feeding her baby and thus it makes considerable educative sense to show the woman naked.  Maustrauser 05:45, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You just have to be aware of others' cultural perspectives. Some are much more sensitive to this kind of thing than others are. And regardless of what anyone may think, a person could potentially find their job at risk if they are seen browsing a nude photo at work. Zero-tolerance sucks, but it's a reality in many places. Besides this, an illustration of belly size is one thing, but the size of the breasts is meaningless here unless there is a comparison picture. Thus, you would need a "before-and-after" to really put educational value into it. But then there's a risk of stirring up even more controversy. My ideal solution: external links. -- Tim 06:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do you say in your post of 5:34 that censorship is irrelevant when it appears that this article is proposed to be censored because some people, for cultural or religious reasons find an photo of a naked woman offensive? I would have thought that most readers of the English WP would not find nudity offensive for cultural reasons.  Some may find it offensive for religious reasons (though I can't fathom why either - especially as the Bible tells us that we are fashioned in God's image!).  But either way, WP is not censored as WP policy states and I think the WP disclaimer makes it very clear that when you go to articles about the human body, you are going to see pictures of the human body. Maustrauser 06:40, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Censorship is not irrelevant - what's irrelevant is the fact that there is a lack of censorship by a governing body (which is what the disclaimer is referring to). That leaves the responsibility in the hands of the self-made editors (you and me and everyone else). Ironically, I could post a picture of hard core pornography and caption it as "an example of a process used to induce pregnancy," and that would actually be more relevant to the article than the picture that is currently up there because it provides illustration for a process that could not be fully conveyed in any other way. The main point here is that this is not an argument about whether the naked body is "dirty" (by nature, it isn't); the argument is over the point of a nude photo in an encyclopedic entry that does not necessitate a nude photo. And the bottom line, in my eyes, is that if something is potentially offensive and its education value does not outweigh its potential for offense, then it should not be there. No harm is done and no value is taken away in removing the photo, but there can be harm in keeping it - regardless of how you or others personally feel about it. -- Tim 15:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no good reason to delete the photo -- it's clearly relevant to the article, and isn't going to get anyone fired -- but I think it would be reasonable to move it down further in the article.  Not because it's nude qua nude, but because it's a bit distracting appearing in the lead paragraphs of a long article, and is jammed right up against the other photo.  I'd argue that we should put both photos lower down in the article, and space them well apart from each other.  Nandesuka 23:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that is a good compromise that should meet the needs of most users. I'm happy to make that change in the next couple of days.  I'll wait to see if there are any severe objections to that proposal.  Maustrauser 02:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, screw it - I said all that I wanted to say. I thought I made sense...but hey, I'm biased :) -- Tim 04:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, Nadesuka, the idea to move it down the page isn't new. I proposed at 17:51 on the 22nd ;-) Poweroid 16:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well done Poweroid. I would have noticed your suggestion but I was distracted by the thought that you were busy oogling...  Thank you to Kuronue for making the actual changes to the photo's location and caption. Maustrauser 00:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll oogle lower down. No, that doesn't sound right. Oh well, you know what I mean :) Poweroid 14:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and just to be annoying, how come we talk about size increase in her breasts and stomach but not her hips and thighs? Never mind, I'm just being pedantic! Poweroid 14:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Speaking of which, the change isn't that obvious. Before-and-after pictures sounds more sensible, and not for the sake of censorship, but also for the sake of clarity. For now I think I'll just put a warning :P 219.75.79.78 16:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Colloquialistic accuracy
I don't know if it's important enough to merit an edit, but I live in california and I've never heard the term "lady-in-waiting" used to describe a pregnant woman. perhaps it's more localized than just the USA? Also, "preggers" has gained popularity in chat rooms, especially in the roleplaying commmunity (I only know a few people who have never typed "my/his/her char is/was preggers", and they're the ones saying "it's barely shorter and it's AOLien and I hate it, hmmph"). Also, is the last sentance misplaced? Shouldn't it be near the top, if you were looking for alternate definitions for "pregnant", as it's not a colloquial term for pregnancy?

on another note, the information about what happens to a woman during pregnancy is rather terse. I came researching the link between symptoms of going on The Pill and symptoms of pregnancy (mostly the linkn between the same increased hormones leading to side effects) and couldn't find anything about hormones in the woman. If I knew the answer I'd embellish the article. Kuronue 00:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've heard artistic terms on pregnancy I feel is best described: A pregnant woman is compared to a flower buds to a fruit, as the fruit symbolizes a seed about to drop and fertilize into a new tree/flower. Many people don't like the term "knocked up" as improper and crude to make an analogy to pregnant women in an illict affair. The popularly adapted "preggers" seems cute and jovial, while another one "prego" is common in the U.S. The pregnancy article seems to enter the pro-life/pro-choice debate, as some edits deleted any reference to a fetus as a "baby" or "child". Please don't delete them to promote your POV. Please discuss abortion-related and sanctity of life issues in its' appropriate place. The pregnancy article only says what's scientific and how an expecting mother considers the unborn, the way most prefer it. --Mike D 26 07:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Need of translation?
The spanish language version of "pregnancy" articles has extra information that the English version fails to mention. The discussion of whenever or not sexual relations can continue is found in the Spanish version, despite the social mores there rule out against that, except Spain and Mexico tends to share the Western viewpoint of sexual relations during pregnancy. There's no nude photo in this one, probably the cultural rules and national laws might prohibited it. Spain and Latin America has conflicting words and meanings, so there's no single form of the Spanish language. I suggest the pregnancy article is subdivided into Castillian spanish and Latin American spanish. Spanish laws don't restrict artistic depictions of pregnancy, Mexican law up to my knowledge is otherwise tolerant, and I question more reform-minded South American laws in Chile, Uruguay and Argentina. The Spanish version pregnancy article is shorter and not well covered on information that the English version was not shy to cover. Note the U.S. Department of Health has a spanish version web link on health and physiology of pregnancy available in Spanish and other languages written/spoken in the U.S.+207.200.116.203 00:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Help needed
Help is needed in cleaning up/debunking/verifying/holding to a higher standard in the article Male pregnancy. In case the tags are removed by the guy who is adding the ridiculous content, here is a link to a good part of the [history|http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Male_pregnancy&oldid=58648335]
 * Pipe links work the other way. As the guy who is adding the ridiculous content, I have to add that it'd be quite helpful in mediating this dispute if you finally told why the content is ridiculous, or what would qualify as credible, or why you seem to be ignoring the sources that have been given. --Kizor 11:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Beginning of pregnancy controversy
There is an article called Beginning of pregnancy controversy. Is it possible to work this wikilink into this article somewhere? I wanted to run this by the editors here before being too bold.--Andrew c 15:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea. I will work it in.Ferrylodge 01:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

????
I'm a little lost here, can't seem to find the controversy, if someone finds the picture unsuitable, whatever the reason, can they not take it down? Or put something else there? grendel&#39;s mother 02:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * See above for info about the nude pic; one camp has that nudity is untasteful and therefore should be removed, the other camp is of the belief that the image is either a) natural and should be included due to the not-censored-for-minors policy or b) shows vital changes in the female anatomy that the covered image does not show (mostly in the breasts). I've moved the image partway down so it's beside medical and edited the caption for the second camp's b-people, left it there for second-camp a's people, and moving it will ensure that nobody will see it if they just want to read the opening paragraph to find out what pregnancy is (say, a non-native speaker), but will have to look for it and can scroll it offscreen easily if it offends or they are in an unsafe enviornment. Kuronue 22:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And then there's the third camp: those who don't feel the the picture is distasteful on its own, but do feel that it is unnecessary because it doesn't add anything meaningful to the article. Here's a thought for those who are open to other opinions: if you want to show naked breasts as an illustration of what happens during pregnancy, show a comparison picture of the same woman before (or at the very beginning of) pregnancy. That's the only situation in which the image is useful and makes sense. And it would shut me up!! -- Tim 01:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Got one? I could donate from my, ahem, personal collection, but it wouldn't be the same model ~_^ Or are you volunteering to knock someone up and take photos? Kuronue 15:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hold on, lemme check with the wife..........nope, sorry, I can't knock'er up quite yet. Guess we'll have to rely on someone else's work! -- Tim 06:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If Kuronue puts his whole collection online we could go through them and pick out the ones who are pregnant. (Unless the preg. pics comprise his entire collection :)) Poweroid 12:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If Kuronue puts HER entire collection online we could go through them and find that none of them are pregnant-- but if Kuronue puts both her entire collection AND the collections of her much more kinky friends online, we might have something ~_^ Check the userpage ^^ Kuronue 15:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Holy moly, I think we're on to something! Seriously, though, I think a good before-and-after picture would be fantastic. Not in a "heh-heh, boobs" sort of way, but as a real illustration of how the body changes through pregnancy. Maybe someone can come up with non-copyrighted work that fits in with this. -- Tim 15:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Damn, sorry for being too lazy to check the user page before posting, Kuronue. I was also unaware you had kinky friends. It's getting more and more interesting but I'll drag myself back to Tim's suggestion. :-) Maybe a health clinic/hospital will let us use pics they originally took for education/publicity. Poweroid 16:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In all seriousness, if my boyfriend lets me, I'd donate a picture of myself naked; however, I won't be pregnant for quite some time (*crossing fingers*) so it'd be before-only. Kuronue 16:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ha...that's a gracious offer, Kuronue, but yeah, I'm thinking that maybe a pair of clinical pictures of the same person would be slightly better accepted here than a seemingly random non-pregnant nude :) -- Tim 18:22, 27 September 2006 (UTC)