Talk:Premenstrual syndrome/Archive 1

The
The male equivalent? GTBacchus 05:35, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't exist, except as satire, and Irritable Male Syndrome (which is described in rams after testosterone levels drop following rutting) wouldn't be it if it did. Good work finding the little "gem" someone slipped in. - Nunh-huh 05:43, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC) -- there is a male equivilant to hormonal changes. the word equivilant however is used loosely, its WAY different than womens hormonal changes.

PMS Myth Theory is missing a massive ammount of conclusive evidence
Much Much more evidence exists for the Theory that says PMS is a myth, Including studies that track womens ammount of mood swings head aches etc throughout their cycle, Alternative cultures lend support on this subject as well. since there are MANY different cultures in the world. the differences are very prevelent as PMS changes from culture to culture. there is one more study regarding how women rate the intensity of their symptoms, it isnt consistant and they overrate their symptoms after menstration. there could be more studies but these three are important. Ill get the studies once i return to college and have access to them around the 2nd of january.

Placebos don't just affect Socially Constructed Disorders?
I thought that there were disorders that weren't socially constructed that were shown to be affected by placebos. I'm not sure though. Anyone else know anything about this?

Besides diabetes being affected by sugar pills I don't know. :)

82.224.165.46 09:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I always thought PMS stood for...
PreMenstrual Syndrome... --Sparky the Seventh Chaos 00:09, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

Though you might be put off because the name sounds a little strange, IMS does indeed exist. You can google it for information, or just reading an introductory biology textbook should explain to you the links between hormonal fluctuations and mood swings which affect 80% of men. Input junkie 01:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Cultural myth"
This breaks the NPOV. There should be some arguments for the existence of PMS as well as against. Purplefeltangel 04:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I wish whoever keeps changing the "alternative views" section to remove its NPOV would add to the article, instead, with evidence for PMS's existence. I cleaned up the alt views section, but it would be great if someone (with more knowledge of the subject than me) should do the same for the rest. User:Winddragyn 02:20, 17 January 2007

Why should the section put in evidence FOR PMS? That doesn't make sense. The article in its entirety shows two viewpoints on the existence of PMS. The alternative view IS that PMS is a social-construction. I am going to add a lot more evidence to this, because the best studies show that the emotional "symptoms" are almost certainly socially-constructed. However, it's harder to cite a LACK of evidence than it is to cite a bunch of flawed studies. 24.153.178.198 23:49, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Vitex
I have removed the text below as it made a lot of claims without supportive evidence:

'Almost all of symptoms associated with the menstrual cycle can be treated with Vitex. It is the single best herb for treating the many possible symptoms of PMS: cramps, flooding, headaches, depression, water retention, constipation, acne, breast tenderness, and irritability. It can help normalize irregular or scanty periods. Vitex is especially helpful for women who are coming off the birth control pill. For many women, cycles remain irregular for up to two years after stopping the pill. Vitex can greatly shorten that time and helps ease the body into regaining its own natural rhythm'

--Smallbone10 00:10, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Very much diet-related
How can anyone say premenstrual tension does not exist? I can guarantee that it certainly does.

I've been battling with my hormones all of my adult life, and most of that time I spent not knowing what was actually going on. It's when you start to have suicidal thoughts that you realise something is very, very wrong! And indeed I have been to those depths, only to recover the very next day as if it was all just a bad dream. Hormones are wicked things, to say the least.

I suffer every month from premenstrual migraines - like clockwork, dead on time - and after many years of trial and error, and a whole lot of reading and re-educating myself, I realised that diet has a lot to do with controlling the severity of PMT and my migraine attacks.

I have changed my diet radically and have given up obvious baddies like chocolate and coffee and anything whatsoever with sugar in it - my theory was that they 'raise blood pressure' and bring on tension. Also I have totally cut out hard to digest things such as meat, bread and other cake-like stuff - all things that I considered to stay in my stomache for too long. I presently just survive on raw fruit and vetables (and spirulina), which sounds very boring, I agree, but the health benefits I have received from my change of diet are priceless.

Omega oils were my most recent discovery - I used to put pumpkin seed oil an advocado oil on my salads, and found that the following day I was in a very good mood. I purchased some non-animal based combined omega oils and found they had the same effect. Moreover, I would go as far as to say my personality has changed dramatically - I am no longer as negative as I had always been, and I feel good in myself both mentally and physically. I haven't stopped the migraines completly, although I can go some months withouth having one at all, but the severity of them has improved considerably. My usual migraine will only consist of one day of pain (but absolutely bareable and I can function), as opposed to the old times where I'd be chucking-up for a whole day and then two more days of excruciating pain.

I am now fortunate enough in that I do not suffer the other horrible effects of PMT such as bloating, and bad skin and hair etc - if I do, then they are very, very mild. And when I do feel any stress or that a headache is coming on, I use my Zen Chi relaxer machine (http://www.zenlifestyles.co.uk/view_product.php?product=ZLM-01) to 'wobble away my tension. This machine is excellent for headaches - often completely clearing them - and you are left with an amazing feeling of calmness. I find I'm left so relaxed that I have absolutely nothing to say to anyone!

My migraines were so bad at one time (every two weeks) that I saw a neurologist. He just told me 'it's your hormones' and basically that I just have to live with it - and then prescribed me some pills to take when the migraine came. Prevention is better than cure in my book, and I was discussed that not once did he ask simple questions about poor lifestle/diet etc, that again and again are being proved to provoke PMT.

I would advise any woman suffering from PMT to take a good look at their lifestyle - sleeping patterns, excersise, things/situations/people that make them stressed - and rearrange their behaviour to change/deal with these things. But mainly I would advise them to take a good look at the ingredience labels on things that they eat - it's frightening. You can easily become obsessed with diet, so much so that you go a bit 'crazy'. This is easy to avoid if you just stick to eating only what's good for you and cutting out the things that your body really doesn't need. Never try dieting to loose weight - your body needs nutrients - just change what you eat - I have found that I have shed a lot of unnecessarily weight, reduced my prementrual migraines and feel like a new person, just by changing my diet and being more aware of what I eat and what my body needs.

You probably just think you have PMS. There is no proof for the emotional symptoms of PMS. Almost all of the studies include self-reporting, which is B.S. since society teaches you that PMS is real so they can sell you drugs for it and hold back the advancement of women. You should re-evaulate your health siutation.

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS A SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED PSYCHOLOGICAL DISORDER DOESN'T MEAN IT IS NOT REAL!!! Critics need to stop citing their own symptoms as evidence, I'm sure you do have PMS, you are probably also an honest person, that doesn't mean that it is not socially constructed. Just look at other culturally connected psychological disorders; let'a give some extreme cases: Amok, Amurahk, "going postal". Just because these are socially constructed doesn't mean people don't go insane beyond their own control and kill people.

Timing wasn't coincidence
I'm a teenager, and I was mildly depressed for about a week. I'm usually a very happy person. Both my parents asked me, "Is there something you want to talk about?" All I could think of was maybe I was stressed out about school. Then I started my period (only my second one), and I realized, maybe I had been PMSing. So I looked it up here, and what do you know, a major symptom is depression! I had thought it was just irritability, so you can't say I imagined everything, especially because, since I only started menstruating this year, the timing of my cycle is really random. So could my depression be totally coincidental? I doubt it.

Actually, yes. The whole depressed/fatigue thing has to do with PMS and periods, it happens alot before the week of your period. Drink water. -Women tend to blame outside sources for everything whether its good or bad. the hard fact is your probably just Blaming it on PMS, headaches and mood swings can be blamed on anything once you hit a period though instead of,(example) Oh im so depressed because of all the fear and war in the world, its Oh im so depressed because of my period.

Premenstrual Stress Syndrome vs. Premenstrual Syndrome
In the US, "Premenstrual Syndrome" is the most general nomenclature used in the biomedical literature, and is common to gynecology and psychiatry. The DSM-IV also defines Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder. Why is "Premenstrual Stress Syndrome" being used here? Is that a reflection of non-US nomenclature? As a researcher from the US I'm much more comfortable and familiar with the US terminology. If someone is familiar with both, could s/he resolve this issue? --EHB This is an English Page, not a USA page, if you feel the extre termanoligy should be used add it in there as an alternative name but dont erase something that others are familiar with regarding termenology.

Cleanup
I removed the general cleanup tag at the top, and placed an advert tag above the information on herbal medications. This is the section than needs cleanup most, although all sections could use some. -EHB

Someone has added three references to the section on herbal treatments. None of these references support the statement as it is written. All sections could still use editing. Ehb 22:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

PMS in jurisprudence
Innovative defense has a link to Premenstrual stress syndrome, which does not exist. i looked in the history and didn't see anything about it. was this deleted at some point, or never put in at all, or ? --dan 02:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Confusing sentence
This makes no sense: "Diagnosis of PMS differentiation from clinical depression and anxiety disorders." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.187.0.165 (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Clean up alternative views
The alternative views needs those citations really, I think it should be removed until then. I don't think I've seen as many on an article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.111.193.106 (talk) 02:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

I removed many of the {citation needed}'s in alternate views, as they were unnessisarily after the end of every sentence, despite the fact that many of thos sentences shared a common source.

However, the paragraph that includes "be a bitch" should be cleaned up: is the use of the word "cynical" violating NPOV, is the use of "bitch" nessasary, are there any references available? ---user: winddragyn

I added back the "Alternative Views" section. Just because it may need some clean-up and probably more in-depth expansion doesn't mean that it needs to be completely removed. In my opinion, most women PMS because they're told that they're going to by schools and family and the medical community. To me, it's a modern form of female hysteria. Do women PMS in cultures that don't even know about it? I've read studies that in some African cultures, women are thought highly of when they begin menopause (in contrast to a more Western point of view) and report having none of the menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes that in the West, people are told are "supposed" to happen, pretty much regardless of everything. Perhaps it's a similar phenomenon with PMS. In the West, the menstrual cycle has in some time periods been thought of as an illness and a woman is weak and should not exert herself too much when she's menstuating. Many of these kinds of beliefs still, in my opinion, prevail today. I think the "Alternative Views" section definately belongs in this article and the balances the POV. CerealBabyMilk 02:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear CerealBabyMilk. Sorry, the text in the "alternative views section" is not correct, and there are no serious references. Therefore I removed it again. The "alternative views" must have been written as a joke. There is no support that PMS is a socially constructed disorder. There is no doubt about the existence of PMS. There is no debate because there is only one view. Please read serious medical information. In best case, the "alternative views section" is controversial. Controversial information without support should not be found in wikipedia, as wikipedia should only published acknowledged information that are documented in other sources. As you write yourself, this is your "opinion". If you want to question the existence of PMS, you must first do research to prove it and then get the results accepted as a medical scientific article. After that, you can quote your research in wikipedia with the reference to your article. Wikipedia should only contain medically accepted information. As you see in the article, 80 - 95 percent of women have symptoms. If you are amongst the small minority, then you are lucky, but please do not add text in wikipedia that is wrong. user Heidit 10 February 2007

Dear Heidit: The "Alternative Views" section was not written as a joke. While I do not personally agree with the argument that PMS is a socially constructed disorder, there is a rich and very active debate about this. Personally, I am a biomedical researcher, but medical research is only one "way of knowing," and there are other constructs of knowledge that are worth consideration. I do read serious biology information (I read it, I file it, I produce it, I present it at conferences that you might have even heard of). But please consider that medicine and science are biased and may contain mistruths. Ehb

Excuse me for being a little harsh in the above text. I acknowledge there may be different views and a debate, and my reaction is rather to some of the specific original sentences in that section. Heidit 20:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No excuse necessary, and I also hope you don't think I was too harsh in my response :-). I absolutely agree that the section needs improvement, I hope to spend some time improving it in the future. Ehb 21:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

No problem! Heidit 07:52, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, here's what it is says in my psychology book: "Are the physical changes that occur during the phases of the menstrual cylce accompanied by swings in mood? The answer is "probably not," despite the prevalence in the popular press of discussions of "premenstrual syndrome" or "PMS." PMS refers to the grab-bag of symptoms that include irritability, fatigue, anxiety, and volatility that are assumed to emerge just before menstruation. However, many members of the scientific community doubt the existence of this cluster, and question whether mood shifts in women are any more cyclical than those in men. For instance, studies that ask subjects to chart their mood on a dailt basis show little relationship between menstrual cycle and mood. Indeed, when careful records are kept men and women seem to show no difference in the variability of their moods. In sum, although a small proportion of women do suffer relatively intense periodic mood swings related to their menstrual cycle, most do not (Mcfarlane, Martin, & Williams, 1998; Cotton, 1993)." So there you go. And many of the apparent facts, including the "80 - 95 percent of women have symptoms" one you referenced to have no citations in the article. To try and compromise, I'll put a tag on the section. Maybe the entire article needs a tag. CerealBabyMilk 13:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The references in the alternative sections are not good enough, as is stated in the talk section (see under): "Specific and available citations needed in Alternative Views". If you want to keep the alternative views section, you must provide serious references within short time. Tagging the entire article makes no sense! And yes, the statement "80 - 95 percent of women have symptoms" and the other facts in the article are referenced. They are all picked from reference no 1 (a large pharmacy chain). user Heidit 10 February 2007

Well, we wont die if I don't do it in the next thirty seconds. :) This really got me worked up for a minute. Almost lost my cool. Sometimes people (including myself) can be so intense on this website. Sorry if I came across rude. CerealBabyMilk 13:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Your psycology book must be very controversial, for instance on that "probably not" quote. You did not provide the title of your book, so you have provided no reference for your view. user Heidit 10 February 2007
 * I don't know if it's controversial, at least in psychology. It seems to be the prevailing view in all my psychology books along with in my classes. Basically, they say PMS exists because people think it does. So if a person believes that they PMS, they do. The mind is very powerful. But there's lots arguments for and against it and the symptoms are so general it's obviously hard to tell. CerealBabyMilk 14:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Dear CerealBabyMilk. You added a new reference in the Alternative views section: http://www.always.com/period/pmscauses.jsp. HOwever that references does not support the text, which says: "It has been suggested that PMS might be a socially constructed disorder. Medical evidence shows that there is no difference between hormonal levels of sufferers and non-sufferers." On the contrary, this ALways text do NOT question the existence of PMS at all. What it says on this page is that PMS exists, but the reproductive hormone levels is not the CAUSE of PMS. The levels between suffers and non-suffers are the same, and this (quoting) only confirms that ovulation acts as the "trigger" but is not in itself the cause. In the past, progesterone supplementation was supported as a treatment for PMS, but it has been proven to be ineffective. The only hormonal therapy that works is a regimen that prevents ovulation from occurring. Also notice for instance the section about serotonin: "Abnormal serotonin levels and activities have been found in women suffering from PMS." So the reference you have provided does not support your alternative view. user Heidit 10 February 2007

There is an important difference here. Even though there may be no difference in reproductive hormone levels between suffers and non-suffers (according to Always), the cause of PMS may still be "fluctuations in levels of circulating estrogen and progesterone" (according to Merck). See the Merck reference that is quoted in the article: http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec18/ch244/ch244g.html. So different women are differerently affected by the fluctuations in hormone levels. Anyway, in the first place I was not so detailed in the "causes" section, or rather vague, because science has not sorted it out yet. One should be careful, since it is important not to write something that has not been proved yet. THe matter is very complicated. THerefore, I would like the causes section to remain vague. And the present alternative views section does not stand up to wikipedia standards! user Heidit 10 February 2007

I can under doubt accept CerebralBabymilks addition of the reference for "socially constructed", but she should not deleted "However, the social construct hypothesis remains controversial." As it certainly is, since the existence of PMS is widely accepted in medicine. Deletion of such as sentence does not stand up to wikipedia standards. user Heidit 10 February 2007

Another argument is that since the pill helps on the syndrome on so many women, the syndrome exists. Heidit 21:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

"Many of the symptoms commonly listed for PMS (e.g., headaches, backaches, irritability, tension, fatigue, crying) overlap with the physical sensations associated with stress (Chrisler, 1996). A number of researchers (Beck, Gevirtz, & Mortola, 1990; Coughlin, 1990; Gallant, Popiel, Hoffman, Chakraborty, & Hamilton, 1992; Kuczmierczyk, Labrum, & Johnson, 1992; Maddocks & Reid, 1992; Warner & Bancroft, 1990) have reported that women who describe themselves as suffering from PMS also indicate that they experience high levels of stress from such sources as work load and work monotony, financial strain, marital dissatisfaction, hectic schedules, and family conflict. Some data indicate that women who present with severe symptoms of PMS do not cope as well with stress as do asymptomatic women (or those with mild symptoms). Women who describe themselves as having PMS have been found to be more likely than other women to use coping methods such as avoidance, wishful thinking, appeasement, religion, withdrawal, and focusing on or venting emotions and less likely than other women to use social support, problem-focused coping, and direct action (Gallant, Popiel, & Hoffman, 1994; Genther, Chrisler, & Johnston-Robledo, 1999; Ornitz & Brown, 1993). Researchers have also reported that women who seek treatment for PMS or PMDD exhibit higher than average trait anxiety (Giannini, Price, Loiselle, & Giannini, 1985; Halbrecht & Kas, 1977; Mira, Vizzard, & Abraham, 1985; Picone & Kirby, 1990), adhere to the traditional feminine gender role (Freeman, Sondheimer, & Rickels, 1987; Stout & Steege, 1985), and have a higher than average life-time incidence of sexual assault and abuse (Taylor, Golding, Menard, & King, 2001) and affective disorders, especially depression and anxiety (DeJong et al., 1985; Dennerstein, Morse, & Varnanides, 1988; Endicott & Halbreich, 1988; Kraaimaat & Veeninga, 1995; Pearlstein et al., 1990; Warner, Bancroft, Dixson, & Hampson, 1991). It is not surprising, therefore, that women who report PMS also report high levels of stress. The possibility that the stress of women's busy, overburdened lives and, in some cases, traumatic events contribute as much to the experience of PMS as do menstrual cycle-related changes should be acknowledged (Chrisler & Johnston-Robledo, 2002). If women's coping abilities are being strained by a history of trauma and/or affective or anxiety disorders, it makes sense that changes associated with the menstrual cycle may be perceived as "the last straw" that strains them beyond control. Nor is it surprising that women who endorse the traditional feminine gender role tend to choose indirect, passive, and selfblaming (e.g., "It's not your fault, it's my PMS") strategies for coping with stress (Chrisler & Johnston-Robledo, 2002).

The symptoms of PMS are not unlike those of neurasthenia and hysteria (Cruz, 1983; King, 1989), earlier epidemics of vague (e.g., fatigue, anxiety, headaches, general dis-ease) and idiosyncratic (e.g., neuromuscular disorders, blurry vision, digestive problems) symptoms that were theorized to derive largely from disturbances related to women's reproductive systems. As with PMS, medical experts defined and described hysteria in a variety of ways and assigned to it a multitude of disparate symptoms. A 19th century French physician wrote that "the definition of hysteria has never been given and never will be. The symptoms are not constant enough, nor sufficiently similar in form or equal in duration or intensity that one type, even descriptive, could comprise them all" (Lasegue, 1878, as cited in Showalter, 1997, p. 14). He might as well have been writing about PMS, given that various authors have attributed to PMS 100-150 possible symptoms that can occur in any combination at any time during the second half of the menstrual cycle. Like PMS, neurasthenia was connected to the stresses and strains of the fast pace of modern life. It was first described as "American nervousness" caused by "mental and physical fatigue with organic causes beyond the diagnostic capacities of 19th century medical science" (Showalter, 1997, p. 50). The pain of childbirth and dysmenorrhea (i.e., painful menstruation, a condition that appears to have become subsumed under the PMS label in popular discourse) or the strain of intellectual activities were thought to be largely responsible for neurasthenia in women, who were advised to stay at home, rest, and avoid reading, writing, or studying. Today women thought to have PMS are advised to slow down the busy pace of their lives, sometimes in ways that can hurt their chances for successful careers (self-help books advise women to tell their bosses about their PMS, not to schedule important business meetings or travel during the luteal phase, Chrisler, 2001). Organic causes of PMS have been variously theorized (e.g., hormonal or neurotransmitter malfunction, nutritional deficits, sleep disorder), but because no agreement has been reached, and no biochemical or physiological marker has ever been found to discriminate reliably between women who do and do not report PMS (Gold et al., 1993), it is safe to describe PMS as beyond the diagnostic capacities of 21st century medicine.

In summary, PMS is defined vaguely and variously (researchers do not even agree on its time of onset), and this vagueness is found in both the professional (see Parlee, 1973, and Fausto-Sterling, 1992) and the popular literature (see Chrisler, 2001; Chrisler & Levy, 1990). PMS is often confused with PMDD, dysmenorrhea, pre-existing conditions, nonproblematic menstrual cycle-related changes, and even with experiences that have nothing to do with the menstrual cycle except a coincidental concomitance. The concept of PMS is so vague and so elastic that almost every woman can see something of her own experiences within it (Chrisler & Johnston-Robledo, 2002). This encourages self-diagnosis, validates the construct, and supports the stereotype of women being turned into menstrual monsters by hormones as toxic as Dr. Jekyll's elixir."

Dear CerealBabyMilk: You have provided no complete reference, as you only lists surnames and years. What are the full references? Heidit 05:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Cerealbabymilk: Please add summary/comment when you do changes to the article. This is standard procedure. Heidit 05:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is interesting if physcology provides other explanations than in medicine. If so, there should be written some good text about it in the ALternative views section. But do not remove the unreferenced and disputed tags, as the ALternative views section IS unreferenced and disputed, and weekly written in the present state. Heidit 05:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

CerealBabyMilk: Maybe you can shorten the above text here that you wrote to approx 5-10 sentences and put it in to Alternative views section with full references (including title of books)? Heidit 05:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is humorous that psychology textbooks would try to put forward the idea that PMS is a social construct and that the symptoms of PMS mask or provide a convenient explanation for symptoms of a more severe depression or other psychological problems which the person fails to, or refuses to, address in their life. Of course psychology will put forward such a view! Psychologists see many genuine medical conditions as physical, visible manifestations of underlying psychological disorders which, naturally, require years and years (and thousands of dollars/euros/etc worth) of therapy. This view can never be disproved. One can always conveniently input 'psychological' explanations or reasons for any problem after the fact, much the same way primitive people blame natural physical occurences on gods or demons or spirits. It can never be proved nor disproved and is, therefore, meaningless as a valid basis upon which to take action regarding treatment of such condition.

Specific and available citations needed in "Alternative Views"
Some of the citations provided in "Alternative Views" are unhelpful. For example, www.springerlink.com/index/Y120670328224U80.pdf is cited for the assertion that "It has been suggested that PMS might be a socially constructed disorder." Pasting this Springerlink citation into the browser address bar leads to the Springerlink main search page, and from that page a search for "Y120670328224U80" returns no results. A search from the Springerlink main search page for "premenstrual" and "socially" returned one result, as follows:

Fluoxetine and norfluoxetine stereospecifically and selectively increase brain neurosteroid content at doses that are inactive on 5-HT reuptake Category	Review DOI	10.1007/s00213-005-0213-2 Journal	Psychopharmacology Issue	Volume 186, Number 3 / June, 2006 Authors	Graziano Pinna, Erminio Costa and Alessandro Guidotti Abstract	...However, these doses are effective in the treatment of premenstrual dysphoria, anxiety, and depression. In socially isolated mice, we tested the hypothesis that fluoxetine, norfluoxetine... Text	PDF (241 kb) HTML

Hence the Springerlink citation fails to give authority to support the notion that premenstrual distress is socially conditioned.

Similarly, "Capitalizing on the Curse," Elizabeth Kissling, 2006, Lynne Rienner Publishers, is cited to prove that "Medical evidence shows that there is no difference between hormonal levels of sufferers and non-sufferers." On its face, this needle-in-a-haystack cite to Ms. Kissling's 126-page book, without giving the page number is of limited value. Ms. Kissling's book is a feminist critique of marketing remedies for menstrual discomfort in a way that demeans the monthly menstrual cycle, and by extension discounts women. Ms. Kissling states in "Capitalizing" that it is an examination of literature from the point of view of Simone de Beauvoir’s existentialist feminism. Her book makes no pretense of being a biological text, and hence is doubtful support for the claim that "medical evidence shows" anything. Ms. Kissling's book fully accepts that women with PMS suffer. A citation to a specific page, or better, to an actual medical source, would lend more credence to any assertion about hormonal levels. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.101.67.174 (talk) 15:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

---I'm having trouble remembering all of the changes that have occured, but I think that the Pinna, Costa, and Guidotti reference was originally intended to be a reference for a bit that I had added (which is no longer there) about how fluoxetine (an "SSRI") may be affecting the metabolism of progesterone to another steroid called allopregnanolone. Yes, you're absolutely right that it has nothing to do with social construction theory, although I do believe that at one point it would have been a good reference for something else. I believe that I was the one to originally add the section about alternative views. At the time I was a newbie and failed to reference the section. I hope someday to go back and rewrite that section with the references included. Ehb 18:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for checking out the reference "Capitalizing on the Curse," Elizabeth Kissling, 2006, Lynne Rienner Publishers. Then this book should not be used as a reference. I will remove it. Heidit

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read the whole thing, but is there a reason masturbation is under see also. from what I read there didn't appear to be.


 * The current reference #15 (is also #16) may not be an appropriate secondary source. Whether PMS has a strictly "biological" or "conditioned" etiology, either way it would be in the purview of psychology or biology.  Since the disciplines of psychology or biology both generally accept peer reviewed sources as the best type of source, it seems to me that it would follow that this article should carry forward that tradition and utilize secondary sources as defined by Wiki. Ehb 22:45, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Pre Vs Post
I have heard it used to be both Postmenstrual and Premenstrual and actually post more often so can anyone explain this? --71.131.31.243 06:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Controversies Section
The Controversies section definately has some POV issues. It seems to be pushing a some what militant feminist view. Although I can see where they might be coming from, the wording is some what inflamitory, use of weasle words is pretty previlent, and not necissarily encyclopedic in form. thoughts? --Nitack 16:10, 07 December 2007 (EST)

Like most controversies, the truth is probably most likely not either/or but both. It's most likely both true that society uses PMS to minimize women's real concerns (ie. Suzie was just having PMS on the day she expressed concern about Joe's sexual harrassment of her)... and it's probably also true that on the day Suzie exprssed concern, she was more sensitive and more likely to express concern because she was having PMS. But does it make Joe's sexual harrassment less disgusting and actionable? 71.161.219.201 (talk) 00:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

History
The History section needs a good editor to take a look at it. The language is stilted and redundant. (It's massively redundant, if you compare it with the nearby sections, but just within that section there are unnecessary repetitions.) Is anyone willing to take a crack at improving it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Archive?
This talk page is a little on the long side, and it has comments that go back three or four years. It's almost the end of the year; should we figure out how to archive the oldest stuff? WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Occurrence in twins
The article says, "PMS tends to be more common among twins". This seems to say that a person who has a twin is more likely than average to experience PMS. Shouldn't this passage read, "The occurrence of PMS in one twin leads to a higher-than-average occurrence of PMS in the other", or something to that effect? --bdesham ★  05:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyone read Norwegian?
The lead claims that 14% of women stay home from school or work due to PMS. It's not clear whether this means "at least once per cycle" or "at least once per lifetime." The ref is in Norwegian. If you read Norwegian, can you enlighten the rest of us? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Diagnosis
Are there any reasonably reliable sources out there for diagnostic criteria? What I specifically want to know is whether the emotional components are necessary for a PMS diagnosis. Is a consistent cyclic pattern of, say, bloating and itchy breasts and headaches --but with no psycho-emotional changes -- good enough for a diagnosis? (If so, then I don't get the claims that this is a made-up syndrome with no biological basis.) On the flip side, if you throw a temper tantrum a few days before each menstrual flow, but have no other symptoms, is that good enough for a PMS diagnosis? (If so, I begin (barely) to understand the complaints about PMS being a way of devaluing women's emotions.)

There's got to be something out there that's a little more rigorous than what this article presents at the moment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This may be a good place to start -- see table 2. According to the UCSD criteria, an affective component is required. --Arcadian (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Occurrence in twins
The article says, "PMS tends to be more common among twins". This seems to say that a person who has a twin is more likely than average to experience PMS. Shouldn't this passage read, "The occurrence of PMS in one twin leads to a higher-than-average occurrence of PMS in the other", or something to that effect? --bdesham ★  05:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "Leads to" doesn't make sense, as PMS in one wouldn't cause it in the other. I assume that you're suggesting that the intended meaning is that they tend to have similar symptom patterns. HOWEVER, there are other twin-related remarks (including the monozygotic (identical) versus dizygotic (fraternal) tendency comparison [which is mentioned twice, but i'm not sure which should be removed]. Those suggest that it is that monozygotic twins are each generally more proned to it than other women. So no edit seems to be necessary (other than, perhaps, eliminating the redundancy). (Though i'm also curious about dizygotic twins vs non-twins.) —überRegenbogen (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Despite the wording issue pointed out by überRegenbogen, I think the Bdesham is correct. I looked quickly at the source cited.


 * This wikipedia article says: "... studies have found that the occurrence of PMS is twice as high among identical twins compared with fraternal twins".


 * The source says, instead: "Genetic factors also seem to play a role, as the concordance rate is two times higher in monozygotic twins than in dizygotic twins."


 * I'm not a medical researcher, but dictionary.com defines "concordance" as "the degree of similarity in a pair of twins with respect to the presence or absence of a particular disease or trait", making our PMS article incorrect. So I've changed the wikipedia article to better reflect the research.


 * Signed,
 * A PMS-er who, like any net-head, went to wikipedia first for info :)Meh222 (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Anyone read Norwegian?
The lead claims that 14% of women stay home from school or work due to PMS. It's not clear whether this means "at least once per cycle" or "at least once per lifetime." The ref is in Norwegian. If you read Norwegian, can you enlighten the rest of us? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I interpret that as when they're experiencing it. —überRegenbogen (talk) 14:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * So you think it means "14% of women have severe PMS." I had assumed that it could mean "14% of women miss school or work a dozen times a year, for the 35ish years between puberty (PMS onset) and menopause (PMS end)" -- which, to be honest, seems unreasonable to me.  I think that if 14% of all women missed work every month, it would be perfectly obvious to all of us.  I wish we could actually get reliable information on this.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The reference mirrors pretty precisely what is stated here. A study commissioned by the manufacturer Always (product) indicates that 14% of Norwegian women between 20-35 experience menstrual pain to such a degree they are prevented from going to work/school. Typical to such questionnaires, there is nothing in the data to distinguish between "every cycle" or having experienced it at some point. Hope that helps. M URGH   disc.  18:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It helps enormously, because menstrual pain is not the same as PMS. Thank you!  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm glad. You're welcome. M URGH   disc.  20:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Diagnosis
Are there any reasonably reliable sources out there for diagnostic criteria? What I specifically want to know is whether the emotional components are necessary for a PMS diagnosis. Is a consistent cyclic pattern of, say, bloating and itchy breasts and headaches --but with no psycho-emotional changes -- good enough for a diagnosis? (If so, then I don't get the claims that this is a made-up syndrome with no biological basis.) On the flip side, if you throw a temper tantrum a few days before each menstrual flow, but have no other symptoms, is that good enough for a PMS diagnosis? (If so, I begin (barely) to understand the complaints about PMS being a way of devaluing women's emotions.)

There's got to be something out there that's a little more rigorous than what this article presents at the moment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This may be a good place to start -- see table 2. According to the UCSD criteria, an affective component is required. --Arcadian (talk) 06:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I am currently getting through this pain right now..laying down works best. I am hispanic and i dont eat fish. Makes me a high canditate. I get this pain about 3 times a year. Lasts until early PM. I can sorta tell when i'm goin to have it. I am willing to take a study test if there are any out there. (Beautyeyes11@aol). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.99.224 (talk) 15:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone needs to do some research on the last sentence of the first paragraph in the section titled, 'Symptoms'. I read the article that is listed as reference '4' for the last sentence and the whole last sentence does not agree with the article that is referenced by it. The article DOES say that all those symptoms that the last sentence says are not PMS, actually are part of PMS. Someone please correct that reference or find a new one or delete or change that sentence. Thanks. Victoria —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.93.143 (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Archive
I have created an archive of the old discussions. I have copied back to this page all recent conversations. In case anyone needs to know in the future, I used the Move Page method. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV, controversies, non-western views
Hey all, I was just browsing through the this article and noticed the controversies section had some serious POV issues. It largely asserted the view of feminist critics. (Perhaps it was largely copied from someone's gender-studies textbook or term-paper?...) I've done a few basic fixes, but more work may still be needed. It looks like more research and citations are needed - particularly with regard to the section on non-western views. It seems to argue that non-westerners have a much more positive view of menstruation. I'm not an expert on this, but from what I've heard, many traditional cultures have women completely isolated during this time. So yeah, more work is probably needed, but at least it reads fairly NPOV now :-) ~CantBeBotheredToLogin 118.92.65.128 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

PMS in nonhuman animals?
...Does it occur? Do mammals or even primates other than humans suffer from PMS or is it unique to our species?

76.64.150.184 (talk) 03:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Most mammals don't menstruate in the first place, making it impossible for them to experience pre-menstrual anything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Drug of Choice
The quote "initial drug of choice for severe PMS" in reference to SSRI's isn't on the cited page. There is a reference to "First-choice agents for the treatment of PMDD" but that's for Fluoxetine, a specific SSRI. And, "first choice" is a _recommendation_ on that site, not a statistical fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.209.39 (talk) 19:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Somatization disorder
There is barely any mention of PMS resulting from somatization disorders. In somatization disorder, it often appears with other "popular" syndromes (most vague, non-objective, occurring mostly in females, and with little physiologic data). These include chronic fatigue syndrome, IBS, fibromyalgia, "sick building" syndrome (EAS), etc. The article is not neutral and is heavily geared toward physiologic causes, rather than psychologic. Considering that somatization disorder affects 2% of females (close to prevalence estimates of PMS) and is highly heritable, it should definitely be discussed in more depth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.231.27 (talk) 03:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC) ==So it's all in our pretty little heads, eh? Thanks for mansplaining. 71.181.32.42 (talk) 23:33, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

As to who says pms increased in prevalence due to changes in work demographics etc
Martin, E. 1998. Premenstrual Syndrome, Work Discipline, and Anger (pp. 221-241). In Rose Weitz (ed). The Politics of Women’s Bodies. Sexuality, Appearance and Behavior. Oxford: Oxford University Press. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.66.76.88 (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Video
A low-quality high-bandwidth video has been spammed to several articles; it conveys no information that belongs in this article and isn't already available in text. Please do not reinsert it -- and definitely not in the middle of the article! WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

PMS as a criminal defence
In the article a citation is needed. I found this which seem to originate from the 90'ties. http://www.springerlink.com/content/e23v14666ug54855/

Does it qualify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BoosterDK (talk • contribs) 10:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

PMS is not the same as PMT
the S is for Syndrome.. the T is for Tension I have unfortunately been a sufferer of severe PMS and unlike my friends who suffered with just the 2 days of pre tension, it is life crippling. Wiki should have a seperate entry for PMT - the two cannot be compared —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.175.102 (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * PMS and PMT are interchangeable terms. You may be thinking of PMDD, which is more severe.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree with WhatamIdoing Dr B2 (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism?
In the section "Risk Factors", it states that women may have "Allergies to nuts, trees, grass, and markers" Is that correct? Sounds a bit...fishy to me. Suurlemoen (talk) 14:13, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems fishy to me, too, and it isn't in the named source (whence the rest of the list was copied, word for word, so I removed it.
 * The bit about affective disorders also wants some attention. Most definitions completely exclude women with depression (etc) from PMS.  The exclusion kind of makes sense:  you cannot simultaneously have affective symptoms "all the time" and "exclusively in the 10 days before menstruation begins".  I suspect that a formal study would exclude such a woman from a PMS diagnosis, saying that she suffered from normal/non-PMS depression (for example) with, at most, menstrual magnification of the symptoms.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Molimina
Why the medical term "molimina" is not even mentioned in this article ?? Dr B2 (talk) 19:26, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).
 * I recommend that you add it, with a high-quality source to support it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

"Interest in PMS began to increase after..."
I haven't read the cited article so I cannot argue with its case specifically, but as someone who's knowledgeable about PMS research and history I have to disagree with the notion that interest in PMS began to increase after its appearance in the courts.

First off, the wording just isn't informative. I'm not certain what it means to "begin to increase." I would think that interest presumably "began" when the first person ever became interested in it, right? Before that person was interested, interest was at zero. After that person was interested, interest was greater than zero. Interest began to increase when it went from zero interest to something greater than zero.

But there's a bigger picture than the language. Although not named as Premenstrual Tension until 1931, there were related or analogous conditions, syndromes, or symptoms that were described throughout recorded history.

Ehb (talk) 03:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).  The "history" in this article has always seemed to me to be dubious in spots, and seriously incomplete.  If you have any good sources that address this, please WP:BOLDly improve the article!  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

diagnostic criteria
Symptoms / patient questionnaire:

Moreno, Giesel

Premenstrual Syndrome

eMedicine Specialties > Pediatrics: Surgery > Gynecology Premenstrual Syndrome

Clinical

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/953696-overview —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.165.11.243 (talk) 01:43, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Further understanding of PMS
Not sure how to include the research for the following recommended changes....Premenstrual Tension (as it was known in the 1930's) was renamed premenstrual syndrome and did not get much attention until the 1980's. PMT is now considered a subgroup of PMS in medical literature and is divided into four different subgroups. The research below should be added to the #1 for a reference. I could not find out how to do this.

Premenstrual syndrome (PMS) and Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMMD) are a collection of physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms related to a woman's menstrual cycle.

Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2003 Aug;28 Suppl 3:39-53.

Steeleworks (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)Jonathan Steele, RN You can contact me at editors@GlutathioneDiseaseCure.com


 * I'm not sure that's appropriate. We have a separate article at Premenstrual dysphoric disorder.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Most common symptoms
tiredness or lethargy (84%), depressed mood (72.3%), sudden feeling of sadness or tearfulness (70.3%), anxiety (70%), backache (69%), and sleep problems (66%).

Results: Of the 300 participants, 98.2% reported at least one mild to severe premenstrual symptom and 16% met the criteria of DSM-IV for PMS. Most common symptoms were


 * feeling of tiredness or lethargy (84%),
 * depressed mood (72.3%),
 * sudden feeling of sadness or tearfulness (70.3%),
 * anxiety (70%),
 * backache (69%), and
 * sleep problems (66%).

Bakhshani NM, Mousavi MN, Khodabandeh G.

Prevalence and severity of premenstrual symptoms among Iranian female university students

http://www.jpma.org.pk/full_article_text.php?article_id=1664

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19402278

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocdncntx (talk • contribs) 19:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you think should be done with this. The existence of physical symptoms is very common.  You could probably get similar numbers for fatigue, backache, and sleep disturbance by surveying obese middle-aged men over a similarly long time period. That doesn't mean that the symptom is necessarily related to the menstrual cycle—and even when it is related to the menstrual cycle, it doesn't mean that these symptoms are actually PMS (in fact, the source says that it's not PMS for 82% of the women reporting symptoms).
 * This survey asked for information on symptoms over the course of six weeks (two weeks each month, times three months). Nearly every student reported some sort of symptom at least once during those six weeks.  It would be a strange world if students had no anxiety and no fatigue during any randomly selected set of six weeks.  (Do they have no difficult exams or papers to write?)
 * Importantly, this survey apparently failed to use the necessary self-control: if your "PMS symptoms" of depression, volatile mood, anxiety, etc., do not reliably go away, then you don't have PMS; you have regular old depression (or anxiety, or whatever) that has nothing at all to do with the menstrual cycle.  To diagnose PMS, you have to prove not only the presence of symptoms during the five days before the menstrual bleeding begins, but also their reliable absence no later than four days after the menstrual cycle starts.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:02, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Content dispute on between WhatamIdoing and anon user
I don't think it is appropriate to revert the edit wholesale. I've protected the page until we can resolve this issue. For example, two of the paragraphs refer to the views of Carol Tavris, the anon edit makes it clear that these are views of the same person, but User:WhatamIdoing changed it back to say "Another view holds that..." implying that it is not the same person. Edward (talk) 05:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I am the anon who made the edits that were reverted. I put a lot of work into the edits. I do not think there should be a separate section called Alternative Views. These views are out-of-date and in such a small minority that they are really 'fringe'. The entire section is POV in this respect. I was just trying to even out the tone, fix the poor writing, and make the text match with citations. Cordeliasmith (talk) 06:02, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Welcome to Wikipedia, Cordelia.
 * Your edits introduce the incorrect idea that Carol Tavris is the only person in the world who ever believed these things. For example:  "Writing in 1992, Tavris said that PMS was being mis-diagnosed":  Do you really believe that Tavris is the only person who believes this?
 * Your edits also violate Wikipedia's rules about sources. For example:  "This discussion is largely academic these days as PMS is a known illness, with hospital clinics devoted to it."  You cite the existence of a clinic that contains "PMS" in its name.  I could cite the existence of Royal London Homoeopathic Hospital as proof that homeopathy isn't pseudoscientific garbage.  Would you consider that to be a good proof?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Expanding "Alternate views" section
The following blog post cites several sources (news article, books) that can be used to expand the content of the "Alternate Views" section, I leave it here as a reminder for myself and other people willing to expand it: PMS is social construction. Bouktin (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Update to reference 25 and external links
I'm writing to let you know reference 25 which links to http://familydoctor.org/141.xml is no longer a valid link. The page has moved to http://familydoctor.org/familydoctor/en/diseases-conditions/premenstrual-syndrome-pms/treatment.html. Thank you! Usableweb (talk) 18:25, 26 July 2013 (UTC)