Talk:President's Trophy (cricket)

Redirect request: Ayub Zonal Tournament
You have declined this request and have said: "Ayub Zonal Tournament ? President’s Trophy Grade-I: The title you suggested seems unlikely. Could you provide a source showing that it is a commonly used alternate name?"

Sorry, but frankly I find this hard to believe. Why is it "unlikely"? The original name of the tournament was "Ayub Zonal Tournament", named after Pakistan's President Ayub Khan and it evolved via another title into "President’s Trophy Grade-I". Then you are asking for a source when I have taken the trouble to find one in Wisden Cricketers' Almanack, the 100th edition published in 1963, on page 965 precisely. The contents of this page are a description going into some detail of "The Ayub Zonal Tournament, 1962". It was won by Karachi who defeated North Zone in the final.

What more am I expected to do? I suppose you want some online source like CricketArchive, which will be incorrect in any case, rather than a book which is widely renowned as the "Bible" of the world's second most popular spectator sport? I despair. No wonder I keep reading that good editors are leaving in droves and, equally, no wonder that Wikipedia retains little if any credibility in academic circles (I am one of a dwindling few who is still prepared to give it a chance). 86.168.218.118 (talk) 11:14, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * When I search for, only 3 hits are returned, one of which is President’s Trophy Grade-I where an IP editor has added the name only two days ago . Could there by any chance be a misspelling here? The source here looks legit, and does mention "Ayub Zonal Tournament". A very plausible redirect it is not. Did you consider creating an account? That way you could create the redirect yourself, save us both some time, and, so it appears, some frustration. — Sam Sailor 11:25, 20 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Absolutely unbelievable, but then, no, it is actually typical. Instead of "searching for internet hits", why not adopt a scholarly approach and refer to Wisden Cricketers' Almanack which, as I have explained, is an impeccable and peerless source for cricket history. If administrative functions are being given to people like you who ignore definitive book references and rely on being able to find an obscure Google hit, then no wonder this site is on a downturn from which, in my honest opinion, it will never recover. You are the sort of person who would ignore Hansard and cite this crap instead. I suggest you read WP:VERIFY and its sub-pages. Administration is a real-world skill, and not something that can be achieved by someone who has merely completed 10k routine edits and reverted teenage pranks a few times. Think on. It so happens that someone who does know something about the subject has resolved the matter by reference to Wisden and by using common sense. 86.168.218.118 (talk) 13:56, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Guess what, I have just used a "Google hit" reference for one sentence because I was too lazy to look in a book and the XLinkBot has rejected it, even though the information provided is 100% correct, because it is on a suspect links list. To remedy the situation, I have dug out another edition of Wisden and found the definitive reference there. So much for Google hits. 86.168.218.118 (talk) 15:20, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Let's have a better look at what the sources say about this matter. TL;DR? - SPOILER ALERT on mouseover

I have found two more sources that refer to the competition as Ayub Zonal Tournament:
 * Scyld Berry in The Observer on cricket: an anthology of the best cricket writing (1988) on page 169 mentions Ayub Zonal Tournament. That is the one singular mention in the book I can see.
 * Bulletin with Newsweek (January 1981) writes:"In 1964 it was reasonable by such standards for the new Ayub Zonal Tournament to be accorded first-class status. In the first round Dikhan, instead of playing another small fish like Baluchistan, were drawn against the mighty Railways, the ..."

Looking into other sources, Ayub Trophy would appear to be the name used for the competition now titled President’s Trophy Grade-I in its first decade from 1960 and onwards in both then-contemporary sources, sources from each decade since, as well as in current sources: Moving on to the 1970s: Later sources include: Turning from book sources to news sources we find:
 * University of Dhaka in a 1962 report refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing:"The Dacca University Cricket Team participated in the Ayub Trophy. It was defeated in the Zonal match played against Dacca Divisional Team."
 * Journalist Altaf Gauhar, known as the de facto vice President of Pakistan through his close connection to President Ayub Khan after whom the competition was named, in his 1967 book Twenty Years of Pakistan, 1947-1967 refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing:"The two major tournaments of the country, the National Cricket Championship for the Quaid-i-Azam Trophy and the Zonal Cricket Championship for the Ayub Trophy are conducted by the BCCP."
 * Illustrated Weekly of Pakistan (1967) refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * The Statesman in 1967 in multiple instances refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * The Tempest: A Monthly Review of National Affairs in 1968 refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * Pakistani sports journalist Mukhtar Bhatti, characterized on his death 7 February 2016, as an immortal name in Pakistan's sports journalism, and the greatest sport historian, in his book Twenty years of sports in Pakistan (1969), a book called quote "the most comprehensive record of all sports activities of the country since its birth", refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy; he does however also on page 225 refer to Ayub Zonal Trophy Cricket Championship. No mention of "Ayub Zonal Tournament" has been found.
 * Pakistan Year Book (1969) refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * Illustrated Weekly of Pakistan in 1969 refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing:"The appeals, the change of fixtures, the various troubles during Quaid-i-Azam and Ayub Trophy matches all point to the fact that the game was in great distress. But real trouble began during the Ouaid-i-Azam Trophy final this year between ..."
 * British Cricket researcher and historian Rowland Bowen in his book Cricket: a history of its growth and development: throughout the world, a quote "magnificently learned work", refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * The Statesman in 1971 refers to the competition as both Ayub Trophy and Ayub Zonal Trophy writing:"The K.C.A. teams had won the Quaid-i-Azam Trophy as well as the Ayub Zonal Trophy for years in a row. The Ayub Trophy, which has now been replaced by the B.C.C.P. Trophy, had been won by the K.C.A. throughout, except for its inaugural ..."
 * Pakistan's Book of Cricket Records (1971) refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * Teenager in 1973 refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing about Wasim Bari:"It was then that the Karachi team spotted 16 year old Wasim Bari of the Cantonment Public School. ... Bari became an instant success and with his help the Karachi team won the Ayub Trophy."
 * The Illustrated Weekly of India refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing in January 1975:"More recently FIVE of the famous Muhammad family, Wazir, Hanif, Mushtaq, Sadiq and Raees, all appeared together in an Ayub Trophy match in 1961, three of the brothers representing one side and two the opponents."
 * Sporttimes in 1978 writing about Talat Ali's 1967 First-class debut refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * Scottish sportswriter Patrick Barclay in his Puffin Book of Cricket (1987), refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * Zahid Zia Cheema in his Majid Khan biography Majestic Khan (1996) refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing:"I first saw Majid on a cricket field in Lahore when he was representing the Lahore Cricket Board, against KCCA whom I was representing in the Ayub Trophy Final in 1963-64. He was then only eighteen but even then there was no mistaking ..."
 * Collins Gem Cricket refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.
 * Pakistan & Gulf Economist in 1999 writing about Javed Miandad's older brother Bashir Miandad refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy:"Eldest of five brothers, Javed being the third, Bashir in his own rights was a seasoned cricket player who played Ayub Trophy in the late 1960s."
 * British journalist Peter Oborne in Wounded Tiger: A History of Cricket in Pakistan (2015) refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy writing: Another tournament began in 1960/61, the Ayub Trophy, and became a fixture, for as long as Ayub was president. The traditional QuaideAzam Trophy had been scrapped for the season as Pakistan and the small pool of its best players were ...
 * White on Green: A Portrait of Pakistan Cricket (2016) refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy:"In 1960/61, the BCCP introduced a new competition intended specifically to spread firstclass cricket beyond the big cities of Karachi and Lahore. They named it the Ayub Trophy – so that the new teams and their supporters would associate their ..."
 * "The Ayub Trophy went, the Patrons came, and now it is the President's Trophy."
 * "It was a first class match in Pakistan, played between Pakistan Railways and Dera Ismail Khan. Though this first class tournament is called The Patron’s Trophy now-a-days, back then it was known as the Ayub Trophy. The three-day match was played in Lahore’s Railways Moghalpura Institute Ground and it started on 2nd December 1964."
 * "Raqibul Hasan Sr (...) was the first Bangladeshi to play for a representative Pakistani team, (...) and he also took active part in Bangladesh’s freedom struggle in 1971. Abhishek Mukherjee looks back at the first significant name in Bangladesh cricket. Wartime cricket: Dark clouds of Civil War loomed over East Pakistan. Ayub Trophy was renamed after Board of Control for Cricket in Pakistan (BCCP), stamping a mark of authority by West Pakistan."

And the list goes on. But finally notice that
 * The Pakistan Cricket Board, the organization that is responsible for governing all professional cricket in Pakistan, consistently calls the competition Ayub Trophy for each and every year between 1960 and 1970 where the tournament was held,      but in not one single case do they call it "Ayub Zonal Tournament" in their database. A search on PCB.com.pk returns zero hits on.

Obviously this is not a case of PCB not knowing the name of their competition, and of multiple reliable sources (many of them being Pakistani, and in much better touch with reality and facts than a Brit sitting home in England thousands of miles away was in 1963) being wrong when they call it Ayub Trophy. It is a case of Wisden Cricketers' Almanack (1963) being wrong when they call it "Ayub Zonal Tournament" and it is a case of Scyld Berry retailing the mistake years later. As a matter of fact, Berry in his 2015 book Cricket: The Game of Life: Every reason to celebrate corrects his mistake and refers to Ayub Trophy. And, lo and behold, The Shorter Wisden 2011 - 2015 refers to the competition as Ayub Trophy.

So, back to the top, no source has been presented in regards to Ayub Zonal Tournament "showing that it is a commonly used alternate name", it is a seldom used misnomer, and the the probably good-faithed move performed from Ayub Trophy → Ayub Zonal Tournament was as wrong as the edit summary "this is the correct title, per Wisden Cricketers' Almanack".

IP86.168.218.118 holds the WP:FAIL-opinion that it is "no wonder that Wikipedia retains little if any credibility in academic circles (I am one of a dwindling few who is still prepared to give it a chance)". But in this case, the article was created on and for 9+ years correctly stated in the lead that the competition was first played in 1960–61 as the Ayub Trophy and remained so for ten years, thus proving WP:WITS that can be relied on. Right until three days ago when IP86.168.218.118 in changed the text to read It was first played in 1960–61 as the Ayub Zonal Tournament and remained so for ten years. with the edit summary "correct name is Ayub Zonal Tournament; links added to all names". The edit removed any mention of Ayub Trophy, was WP:UNSOURCED, introduced a WP:REDLINK to the then non-existing Ayub Zonal Tournament, now of course a WP:SELFREDIRECT, and WP:WIKILINKED to BCCP Trophy and Patron's Trophy despite WP:SELFREDIRECT.

May we see a swift WP:SELFREVERT, please? References presented above can be used in the article, and I suggest the misnomers be mentioned in a note with nested references to their sources. Don't hesitate to ask for help.

Lesson to be learned here: even a renowned basket weaver may occasionally produce a specimen unfit for eggs. Regards, — Sam Sailor 13:14, 21 August 2016 (UTC)


 * IP86.168.218.118 did return and edited on 21 August, but never replied here or corrected their mistakes in President’s Trophy Grade-I and Pakistani cricket team in England in 1962. So much for the glorious "scholarly" methods and "academic" contributions to Wikipedia. — Sam Sailor 21:31, 4 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Above copied from Special:Permalink/737757920 for reference. Mistake has been reverted. — Sam Sailor 21:48, 4 September 2016 (UTC)