Talk:President (card game)

Name Game
Hold on, hold on! There's a card game called 'asshole'? Jdaniels15 (talk) 02:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC) "Fred Fuchs? His name might as well be Erect Cock!"

Schekjbenjel
Within certain Mennonite communities in Canada, this card game is known as Schekjbenjel, a Plautdietsch (low German) word meaning Errand-boy. It is played with the most standard Asshole rules. the lowest ranking player is referred to as Schekjbenjel, and the highest ranking player is usually referred to as the King. the word Schekjbenjel was a term usually used for someone who is hired as a farm-hand (usually the neighbour's kid), but today it is more used as a friendly-Derogatory term (if such a thing can exist). Impreziv (talk) 05:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Dai Hin Min
Dai Hin Min is the same game, and it has a big description too, it would be good to fuse the articles.

Merge
I know this one by the name 'high society' and we use the fewest rules possible. Makes for a super simple game that non card players can catch on to. It's a 'gateway game'. (shudder)

I know this game by the name Shithead. However, I think this page is "better" in that most of the content on that page is duplicated here. I suggest that any relative content from the Shithead article be moved here. Technostalgia 19:22, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I disagree. While the two games appear to have some similarities, just as Hearts and Spades do, they are definitely not the same game. This page describes a game completely different from the Shithead I have played. Dansiman 22:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The games are quite different. Suggest removing merge notice soon. EdC 00:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia have guidelines for dealing with variations in rules to games? This is obviously describing something very similar to the (dozen or so variations on the) game I know exclusively as Asshole, but is just different enough that explaining the differences will be difficult. Lousy drunk people can't remember the rules from one time to the next... Tuf-Kat


 * There aren't any guidelines that I'm aware of. The most popular ruleset should be the main one given in the article, but any optional rules should also be given.  If there are substantial differences and disagreement, I guess that there could be multiple pages for the same game.


 * Realistically, I don't think there's much hope of stating the "most popular" ruleset. Perhaps a simple, general description of the game's mechanics would be better, and leave all of the optional rules to the optional rules section. I like the way the optional rules are currently presented. I'm also having my doubts at describing a children's card game as "usually a drinking game" :) Dze27 22:04 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of it as a children's game. It's probably the most common drinking game, in my experience, in the greater DC area. Tuf-Kat 22:25, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)


 * Interesting. The reason I said "children's game" earlier was just that it relies on some trust with the passing of cards. I don't think it wouldn't make a very good gambling game, for instance. Dze27 05:08, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

The Great Dalmuti is not a President variant. It's a commercial game based upon the same principle as President, but with a special deck.

Hm, I'd say children's game. I learned to play it when I was 13, and played every day at school since. We played 3's high, and cards had to be the same "combination" (I dont know how to word this hence I didn't put it in the article) ie, if someone played a pair, all cards except 2's and 3's had to be in pairs etc... four 4's couldnt beat 2 5's etc.

I do accept that 3's high is a rare mutation that was specific to the group of people I played with though, even the people at the next lunch table over played 2's high.

We always played with 3's high as well, and occastionally high 4's (the thinking being that a 2 could beat a pair, 3 a triple, and 4 a quadruple). Another rule we played with is if there is a "run" of 3 or more (ie. on person plays a 10 next a J, then a Q) each of the people involved got to discard a card (two if it was doubles, and so on). I also agree that it is primarily a childrens game, we started playing it when we were 11 or 12, and while we occasionally still play it while drinking, we don't play it as a drinking game. priester

Warlords and Scumbags
I first knew the game to be called "Warlords and Scumbags". I haven't added this alias to the article in case it is a rare variant, but if others have heard of the name then go ahead and add the alias. Whoever does should also link an article titled "Warlords and Scumbags" to this one. I hail from Brisbane, Qld, Australia (could be useful in determining the spread of this alternate name). Midg3t 06:40, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In Victoria, it can go by that name too. I think it's the dominant name here in Mildura, and at least some people know it by that name in Melbourne. It's a good gender neutral and relatively polite name. matturn 11:40, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That name sounds familiar to me too (Sydney, Australia). I also know the game by the name Prince or Pauper. MyNameIsNotBob 07:22, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

I went looking for Warlords and Scumbags and had to Google it before I found this page. I'm from Adelaide, and I'd never heard it called anything but W&S. I learnt it (the game) from a group of people who possibly learnt it while they were in Canberra or Sydney... Alphax &tau;&epsilon;&chi; 09:31, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I am from Western Australia, and have heard this game referred to as "Presidents and Assholes" here, with the euphemistic name of "Ranks" in front of those likely to be offended by the correct title. With reference to Matturn's earlier comment regarding gender-neutral language, I think this article needs to be edited to be in keeping with this; I plan to make some changes momentarily. Neenish Tart 01:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Changes
I just made a bunch of changes to the article, my goal being to simply some of the earlier paragraphs, add to some of the later sections, and all the while illustrate how the game can vary. The variants of this game present a difficulty: since its most common incarnation is as a drinking game, the rules vary almost from party to party. I don't think there is any "most popular" version of this game. There seem to be a few different categories of variants. The first, of course, is whether the game is played for points or drinks. The second category of variants involves how a round ends: using the joker to clear the round, using the 2 to clear the round, and not having any card that can clear the round; all three of those agree that the round should be cleared when nobody can beat a player's cards. Then there's the issue of the rank of the cards. Those are rather complex, and they involve variations where the 2s have a certain power (when they're not a "clear" card), and where only higher ranked cards can be played, regardless of pairs, etc. I hope I didn't mess up the descriptions of those variants too much. I also added in more info on optional Presidential powers and rules, which in my experience are generally only relevant to the drinking game version, but if people know of Presidential powers that are used in the children's game version, that would be a good addition. Like some others here, I'm not at all familiar with the children's game variant, but I'll trust that it exists. It might be worth noting how this game fits into drinking culture, and how the drinking game's rules are fluid and vary from community to community (or even party to party). -Eisnel 19:14, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I did a bit of simplifying and rewording myself, although I realise I probably should have read the whole article before adding "variations" to the Optional Rules. Sorry about that, -Blagh

Merge unnecessary
At shithead (card game) beforehand, there was a clear distinction between this president and shithead, but this edit confused everything. I may revert it some time...--Dangherous 18:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

In my experience the rules for shithead and Presidents (or asshole, as the case may be) are different enough to the point where there is almost no overlap. Kyle J Moore 03:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Cleaned up Play Section
I tried to clean up the play section so that it was more readable, especially to someone who does not know how to play. I deleted some redundancies and seperated play in to the "First Round" (Where there is no ranking) and "Succsessive Rounds". --Ismelstar 18:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposition for a cleaner article
At Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not there is some controversy around a reasonable amount of info on the rules that should go into a card game article. /temp is an example of what a wikipedia card game article could be. Criticism is welcome.Punainen Nörtti 12:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Merely mentioned rules

 * The Burn rule mentions the Skip rule but it is not called the skip rule or a variation


 * Last card mentions loser rules but they aren't mentioned elsewhere


 * The Social rule mentions the Lateral Moves variant but it is not listed

I'll fix the Skip rule but I'm not sure what the other ones are. Ryan_1729 (login problem) 66.82.9.49 00:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I added the Lateral Moves variant which is mentioned in the "Skip", "Burn", and "Social" rules.--Ismelstar 19:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

How significant is the rule about not being able to play a 2 as the last card in a player's hand? Last I played this, there was practically a bloody brawl over it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slowcheetah11 (talk • contribs).
 * I've never heard that, I think it's a house rule --AW 18:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning up
This article needs a lot of work. I'm going to do what I can --AW 19:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Delete variant rules
I say that we delete the variant rules. -  hmwith  talk   19:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, a lot of them seem to be main rules, like 2 clears, social, and so on. Maybe get rid of some of the more obscure ones, like Long Island rules, Poker hands, etc etc. What do you think? --AW 19:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

2 being clear and 4 being social is mentioned in the main rules. Those should be deleted. But yes, everyone just adds their house rules on here that are just from their city, state, school, friends, etc. It gets to be too much... without any sourcing (not that the game sources any references though either). -  hmwith  talk   19:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * True. How about I'll put ones that I think are main rules (skip, trading, etc) into the main rules, and you can see if you agree or not. --AW 19:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Why, thanks! You're sure on top of this. I assume that other people will agree. The article does need cleanup, so this should help... or at least will be a first step. -  hmwith  talk   19:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure thing! I removed a bunch of the variants and integrated some of them, let me know what you think --AW 13:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Drinking
I'm not legal drinking age, so i would also suggest that this would be edited or have another article concerning the non-alcoholic gameplay. JCcat 12:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was invented as a drinking game. This is the true, original version. (EDIT: Retracted 1st statement. True version of Asshole. For the non-drinking version, see Dai Hin Min.) If you find any sources supporting the rules as a non-drinking game, feel free to add it as a variant. -  hmwith  talk   15:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there reliable evidence that it was invented as a drinking game? Doops | talk 15:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is reliable evidence that it is a drinking game, and that that is how it is commonly known/played. -  hmwith  talk   00:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If there is reliable evidence, could you please cite sources. Punainen Nörtti 18:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops! My mistake. I thought that there were cited sources. I forgot that I added them for Kings, but not here yet. If I get time, I'll add them. You can add them, too. It's not one person's responsibility! =)  hmwith  talk   23:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I do not know of any sources stating that President is primarily a drinking game. I suppose that the best I can find are sources stating that it is sometimes played as a drinking game. Punainen Nörtti 10:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that the game you are thinking of is Dai Hin Min (the non-drinking version of this game). Regardless, I'm in the process of adding sources to this page in my sandbox.  hmwith  talk   15:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * THERE! Added the 4 out of the 1,100,000 sources that came on Yahoo! for "asshole - drinking game". I hope this will suffice.  hmwith  talk   15:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, nobody questions that Scum (the name I'm used to) can be a drinking game or that it's often played that way. The question is whether it's fair to say (as is claimed above) that that's the "true, original version" or (as claimed elsewhere) that it's the "primary" version. Doops | talk 07:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, the article for the game that is NOT drinking is Dai Hin Min, the article for the DRINKING GAME is Asshole (game). The use for Asshole is a drinking game. The same rules that are for NOT drinking are in the DHM article. This shouldn't even be a debate. If we put non-drinking rules here, it would be the same article as DHM. It states that it is the drinking game version of the in the article. If one wants the non-drinking rules, he/she will go there.  hmwith  talk   16:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * At least pagat.com gives non-drinking rules for President, and reports Asshole to be an alternative name. If my memory serves me correct, David Parlett's A-Z of card games has a similar description. Punainen Nörtti 17:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Search for "Asshole". The name of "Asshole" is nearly 100% drinking game.  hmwith  talk   17:51, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless, it's acknowledged that it can be used as a non-drinking game. Therefore, there a 2 separate links to the rules of the non-drinking version. Hope that will suffice! =)  hmwith  talk   17:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, 3 times now. Is that okay?  hmwith  talk   18:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not entirely. I still would like to see a source stating that the non-drinking version is not called asshole (google search to see how the word is actually used comes frighteningly close to original research). If the non-drinking version is called asshole in wide enough circles, the wording of the articles needs some adjustment to recognize this fact. Punainen Nörtti 19:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's just going by sources. However, this article does not need to be changed, as the full set of non-drinking rules are in the DHM article. No changes would have to be here. As I said, "it's acknowledged that it can be used as a non-drinking game. Therefore, there a 2 3 separate links to the rules of the non-drinking version." Why put the rules here if they're there, as well? I also put in the DHM article that Asshole is the drinking game equivalent of the game.  hmwith  talk   01:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * At a minimum, your proposed solution also calls for 1) a disamb. notice at the head of this page; and 2) the addition of the boldfaced names "scum" "president" etc. to the first sentence of the DHM article. That done, I guess a modus vivendi could be reached. However, truly to fix this article it should really get attention from a wider variety of wikipedia editors. Right now I think some of the adverse reaction you're getting is coming from the perception that it's being treated as a private bailiwick by overly-confident drinking-games enthusiasts. Cheers, Doops | talk 02:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I just don't think we need two articles with the exact same content. That's all. Drinking rules are here, non-drinking are there. If anyone wants anymore done, such as the other names to the DHM article, he/she can do that.  hmwith  talk   04:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Dai Hin Min
Based on the above discussion, labelling Asshole/President/Scum definitively as a "drinking game" runs contrary to the experience of many editors and ultimately is not borne out by the available sources. While many "drinking game" versions can be found on the web when searched for, many non-drinking variations can as well. We can't conclude by Google-sampling which version is actually more popular or widespread; that's OR using a terribly innacurate methodology.

I would suggest that this article and Dai Hin Min be merged, and the resulting article describe the general play structure of the family of games, with additional discussion highlighting some specific variations (such as drinking game rules). According to the most authoritative source we have, Pagat, this family includes several international versions which we don't cover, and which won't fit into the false dichotomy created by the separate Dai Hin Min/Asshole article structure.--Trystan (talk) 20:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * While you are at it, how about merging Big Two in as well. The three articles all are different variations on the same underlying game. --EngineerScotty (talk) 04:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Asshole is an American bastardisation of Dai Hin Min. Altering existing things to create reasons for people to get drunk (The Roxanne game, for example, where one team has to drink every time Sting sings the word Roxanne, and the opposing team has to drink each time he sings the phrase Put on a red light) does not create a fundamentally new thing (Although you could argue Prostitute was the name of a drinking game with the above rules, to justify a wikipedia page wholly dedicated to the "game" is obviously absurd). The gameplay of Asshole is almost identical (without drinking) to Dai Hai Min, to the point where you could call the differences house rules on the same game.

Whilst it comes from the same fundamental rules, the allowance of poker hands in Big Two renders the strategy hugely different to that found in Dai Hin Min. In both games, hand balance is important. In Dai Hin Min, however, the strategy is specifically determining the best time to play certain cards based on deduction of the only other possible hands, what cards have been seen, and what streams of play are therefore likely to result. Because of the "double value" of cards in Big Two (a four of spades is close to useless by itself in Dai, but hugely useful as part of a flush play in Big Two), determining the future streams of play is close to impossible - there is not enough information in card deduction alone to reveal future plays. The strategy in Big Two is not nearly as focused on card deduction as the strategy of Dai Hin Min. They are different games.(talk) 15:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.103.134 (talk • contribs)

I strongly disagree with the proposed merger. While DHM and Asshole do share a similar ruleset and Asshole is (in all likelyhood) derived from DHM, the differences that have evolved between the two games are socially signifigant. Asshole is a distinctly Western game and has incorporated into its base rules, besides the driking aspect, rules changes that are local variations (at most) in DHM.

While the relationship between the games is important, there is sufficient divergance (sp?) to justify considering them to be distinct games with an ancestor-decendant relationship. The current wording of the Asshole and DHM introductions express this relationship well and should be kept as is.

What should be considered, however, is a pointer to the DHM rules variation section from the Asshole article. Many of the variants mentioned are common house rules and/or additions made to the rules by the nomic nature of the Presidency's role in the game.

-- Levi "Karatorian" Aho 69.87.204.225 (talk) 04:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Levi. I played a non-drinking version of this game in grade school in Texas, unsurprisingly introduced to us by a fellow American of Asian decent. We called it Royalty, and while similar, is quite different from the game of Asshole I would later learn when I moved to the Northeast. -- Kendrick7talk 05:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've removed the merge tags.--Trystan (talk) 16:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

"Trick-taking game"
This article currently describes the game as trick-based, but it doesn't meet the definition given in the "Trick-taking game" article, which defines a trick as a single round in which every player contributes exactly one card.--Trystan (talk) 21:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Broken link
referance #4 is a broken link 24.213.49.51 (talk) 03:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)ski

Page should be moved or split to President
I'm not sure which one is the more common variation, the original variation was President correct me if I'm wrong. Therefore President should be the main page (or a split). Valoem  talk  20:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The goal is to use the most common name, per WP:COMMON. I feel that Asshole is the most common name. However, if you find more reliable sources that call it President than Asshole, we could move the page.  hmwith  τ   20:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, I just saw the notice on the page. You want the page split? I don't think that's what you mean. Do you disagree that they're the same game?  hmwith  τ   20:54, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the page should be split, as the game "President" is not always the same as the drinking game, even if they are similar. The game "President" is not always played in bars, but for fun and is a very common card game. Most of the "general rules" are very different. For instance, cheating is not allowed in most games, and at the beginning of the next round, the bum gives the president 2 of his best cards and the president gives the bum any 2 cards (usually his worst), and the vice-pres and vice-bum do the same with only one card. I can make this new article, if you guys want, I just want to get the ok from someone. Cainine (talk) 21:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has an article titled Daihinmin about common variants that do not involve drinking. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 15:27, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup
I cleaned out a number of variations and house rules that didn't seem to have many (or any) references on the web. Nothing had references here either. --AW (talk) 06:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is this called Scum now?
I didn't see any reason for the move. I think Asshole is by far the more prevalent name. For example, if you google asshole card game you get 1.1 million hits, while "scum card game is only 367,000. --AW (talk) 22:54, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I felt like based on the talk page, its status as a drinking game was less notable than as a non-drinking card game. I chose "scum" but "president" might be a more logical title. Red Slash 23:29, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, President is a much better choice. (176,000,000 hits) I've heard of it more as "asshole", but often as "president" or "president and something" but never heard the name "scum".  Th e S te ve   03:17, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I moved it --AW (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Dork? Anyone?
I've just been taught a card game new to me. I was told it is called 'Dork' (from Durak?), and the name and rules were apparently passed on from someone in Cuba to a person in London, UK. I can't find any rules for Dork, but the rules in this article 'President (card game)' are identical to the rules for Dork! Has anyone else used the name 'Dork' for this game? --Observer29 (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Merge from The Great Dalmuti
The Great Dalmuti is just a commercially packaged variant of the folk game. That article serves nothing but a promotional purpose in stand-alone form like that. The designer name-dropping in it strongly suggests WP:COI / WP:SPAM. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  09:48, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Strip out the rule variants
Back in 2007, most of the local/quirky/seldom-used rule variants were stripped out in favor of the base game — with notable variants described in another section. It seems that a lot of the variants have snuck back in to the point where the main gameplay article is basically unreadable. What do y’all think — can we filter out some of the unsourced chaff? Grahamtalk/mail/ e 02:14, 7 November 2017 (UTC) Grahamtalk/mail/ e 02:14, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

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"celiaci"???
In the section General Rules > Burning Cards, one line says "if you are celiaci, you automatically win the match". What is "celiaci"??? That's not an english word, doesn't appear anywhere else on the page & a web search only returned foreign language pages & references to celiac disease.

Will somebody please clarify what that line means, for me, please? ProphetZarquon (talk) 19:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Probably a joke. It was added a few weeks ago. I've taken it out. --Lord Belbury (talk) 19:15, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Trouduc
Hey y'all. This game is also the same as the French Trouduc, an account of which appeared on page 20 (48 on the source) of 27/12/1987 of Sud-Ouest Dimanche[1]. A translation and further outlining of it is described in A Dictionary of Card Games pages 316-319 [2]. I think it's pretty interesting how it evolved, and Parlett makes the claim it evolved from Durak and Svoyi Koziri. Although I could see where the idea could originate from, I'm not sure if I entirely agree. Regardless, thought it would be a good idea to add this to the article. Since it's already active I figured I'd let the community decide on it too.

1. https://archives.sudouest.fr/storage/timemachine-so-prod/high?path=data/1987/12/27/04/00/54cb26c688e445d7ff911aa678db828f360389ebaa668c31572dcbb5be0fe7c7.jpg 1 (alt). https://archives.sudouest.fr/search/?page=2&page_number=&publication_date_from=27/12/1987&publication_date_to=27/12/1987&query=&sort=score 2. https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofcard0000parl_e8f2/page/316/mode/2up

Bobpaw (talk) 05:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Bombs
The article mentions bomb cards but doesn't really explain what a bomb card is 2600:1700:3870:FE40:79FE:6D9A:E0E:7C57 (talk) 04:20, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

More clean up needed
This page still needs more work. It's very confusing and all over the place, especially the "notes on play" section. I just read a wiki page on a similar game called Zheng Shang You that also has a lot of variations and rules but was very simple and clear and also had a great section that made note of variations. Maybe the page on that game can help give a structure for this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Shangyou?wprov=sfti1 Katiewoz (talk) 13:30, 16 February 2024 (UTC)