Talk:President of the European Commission/Archive 1

Thorn and Prodi's party
I agree with User:Iota and go further. Thorn's party was, and still is, affiliated to the European Liberal and Democrats group in the European Parliament. Of course it should be yellow. David Cannon 01:53, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC) Also President Prodi was affiliated to "I Democratici" party while President and the party used to be a member of ELDR. So the colour of the president should be changed.

Fair use rationale for Image:Roy Jenkins, Brussels.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Useful start
This is a useful start and a good framework to place names in a historic series. Please note that three European Communities have or had presidents if one includes the Coal and Steel Community High Authority. Their function is both technical and political in the broadest sense, though it should not according to the treaties up to Nice, be party political. The colleges have members who are not defined by nationality or political party. The Commissions were to be honest brokers for Europe. The ECSC had one co-opted member. Members were not allowed to take any paying or non-paying job in the sector for three years after they left office. The EEC treaty says that any nationality cannot have more than two members, and that includes Luxembourg. There is nothing about France or Germany having two members. Commission Members have in contrast to bad political practice or abuse to be independent of governments, and by implication political parties. We should firstly define what the treaties say. Secondly say what governments do which is quite often in violation of the treaties. The early members of the Commissions were ordinary, non-political citizens. Jean Monnet, first president of the High Authority never had a party card. Hallstein was a former Law professor, Louis Armand, first president of Euratom was an engineer. These three communities existed separately until 1967. That is there were three Commission Presidents. The posts of Commission Members are open to all citizens. The treaties define how they should be chosen. Only 2 per cent of the population have party cards but this 2 per cent is now dominating the choice of Commission members, because governments are not choosing the most independent, experienced candidates. There are many European NGOs who have members with practical experience and independence. According to the treaty these should be considered once the governments revert to the principles, letter and spirit of the treaties at the origin of the EU and words of the present Nice Treaty. The major conflict with Gaullist France involved far more than sketched here. Hallstein called de Gaulle's attacks the most destructive act in the free world since Hitler. De Gaulle's pro-European ministers had resigned; de Gaulle vetoed British and other candidates without even discussing it in Cabinet. etc The Dutch under Luns wanted to get direct elections to Parliament as required in the 1951 Paris Treaty. The resolution of the 'empty chair' made the Five timorous of developing democratic measures written in the treaties. Robert1886 (talk) 19:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no need to have an article called List of . . .  when the list is short and there is no separate article saying what the President of the Commission is. List articles only make sense if there is already an article on the post separately. In addition the list name created an unreliable double direct. FearÉIREANN 00:06, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Regarding ECSC, that is mentioned and its details are dealt with on ECSC pages. Regarding points on party, might be good to talk more on the non-political nature of the early Presidents but could you give us some sources on that first please?- J Logan t: 23:09, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

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Error concerning end of presidency
In the article under the section term of office, it is stated that "In the Treaty of Lisbon, the European Council can end the President's term of office in the event of an impediment or serious misconduct (article 9B (5))." with a reference to the Lisbon treaty. This reference is to the wrong president, meaning the right to end the presidents term is relating to the president of the European Council, NOT the Commission president. Therefore I removed this part from the article. --87.78.37.164 (talk) 16:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Emblem of the commission
As we see from this site: http://publications.europa.eu/code/en/en-5000200.htm the emblem of the Commission has been changed and it is slightly different from the EU flag. So the emblem at the top right of the page should be changed

List of Commission Presidents (electoral mandate)
The list of Commission Presidents includes a cell on "electoral mandates". Apart from the fact that in terms of lay-out the solution is far from perfect, I think that it may be factually wrong. Commission President's since Thorn did not have electoral mandates. In fact, Juncker is now the first President that may claim to have so. In general, I think that linking Commission Presidents before Juncker to EP elections is misleading and that the appointment procedure could be analyzed in greater detail in section two.--MfGassi (talk) 15:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. I would suggest removing the field "electoral mandate" completely. It was added very recently, as far as I can see without any discussion - without even an edit summary. Even for Juncker, calling it an electoral mandate may be misleading, and I don't see what it adds to the article.
 * I also agree that we could do with a greater analysis of the appointment process, possibly including the historical development and the discussions leading up to the changes made by the Lisbon Treaty (and its different interpretation by different actors).
 * Also, Juncker is listed as incumbent, though he is not. Currently he is merely president elect. I suppose, like a watch that has stopped at 1 November, it will soon be correct. --Boson (talk) 20:35, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

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Dubious text: EC President is not a Prime Minister but rather Head of Civil Service
The article as it stands contains the strange [and uncited] assertion that the President is like a Prime Minister. He [invariably it's a he] is not. He does not lead a Government. The Commission is not a government. Its function is to apply, interpret and enforce the Treaties - and nothing more. The Commission may propose new law - but strictly in accordance with the Treaties. It can't head off on its own agenda. Its 'legistlative initiative' is highly circumscribed. It would be far more accurate to say that he is Head of the Civil Service. In fact the article has a major omission in failing to state clearly the span of the ECP's authority--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The Commission is the executive of the European Union and in that sense the Commission President corresponds to a Prime Minister on the national level. Most governments are limited by a constitution just like the Commission is limited by the treaties. Nothing strange. --Glentamara (talk) 07:57, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Functions of a head of government
The current article states "(...) although, unlike a national head of government, the President of the Commission does not have any authority other than as defined by the Treaties, does not determine foreign policy, command troops or raise taxes." I just wonder, which heads of government in the EU determine foreign policy, command troops and raise taxes on their own? As far as I know, these decisions are typically the competence of the president, the government as a whole and/or the parliament, and not a competence of the head of government. --Glentamara (talk) 08:00, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * This whole text is tendentious europhobic nonsense, trying to make the EC to be an illicit government, when in reality it is no more than a glorified civil service. The President is not a head of Government, the Commissioners are not ministers. The text as it stands is "when did you stop beating your wife" and needs to be rewritten. I'll have a go. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:10, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The EC president and the commissioners have the same role as a prime minister and ministers, respectively. The commission is the executive of the union, it initiates legislation and is responsible for implementing it at the European level, just like the governments at national level. Furthermore, the commission is appointed according to a procedure very similar to how the governments are appointed at the national level, with the European Council acting as a collective head of state and the European Parliament as the parliament. The commission is also responsible towards the European Parliament in accordance with the principle of parlamentarism. Some people, like Guy Verhofstadt, have even proposed that the commission should be renamned "the European government".


 * Although the terms "government" and "prime minister" are not used formally, I think they are very important in order to facilitate people's understanding of what the European Commission's role in European Union is. Time to call a spade a spade. --Glentamara (talk) 11:45, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * We need reliable sources to support such an interpretation. As an opinion, it would need attribution. --Boson (talk) 12:34, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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"Spitzenkandidaten" process
Only in a coalition which includes the relative winner of the election has this party's "Spitzenkandidat" usually proposed for the post in question. If there is a possibility to form a coalition without the relative winner, then one of the "Spitzenkandidaten" of those coalition partners can be proposed, without being the "winner" of the election. The process nevertheless indicates, that only one of the "Spitzenkandidaten" is going to be selected and no so called "dark horse".

So, instead of only indicating the winner is being proposed, it should be noted "the winner or the candidate of a formed coalition" is going to be elected.

This is reflected in the European Parliament decision of 7 February 2018: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+TA+P8-TA-2018-0030+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN

Especially items 3 and 4: "3.	Stresses that, by not adhering to the ‘Spitzenkandidaten’ process, the European Council would also risk submitting for Parliament’s approval a candidate for President of the Commission who will not have a sufficient parliamentary majority; 4.	Warns that the European Parliament will be ready to reject any candidate in the investiture procedure of the President of the Commission who was not appointed as a ‘Spitzenkandidat’ in the run-up to the European elections;" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.123.246 (talk) 17:30, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Loss of information in tables
Here, you changed some of the time line tables which form an essential part of this article. What were your main reasons for this?

I ask, since I personally prefer the former version. It was more compact, but still contained a good bit more information. Now, the information about what the various commissions did seems to have disappeared completely. Instead, there are rather large tables, with evenly spread information of rather varying quality. E.g., the information about the exact number of days for each commission was added, and is given the same space as the information about its start date and about its end date. For me, this is a rather poor substitute for the information about the most important matters for each commission.

Thus, at a first glance, I felt inclined to revert your edit. However, you probably have had some reason to make the changes, which I haven't understood yet. This might be a good and valid reason. Thus, please explain! JoergenB (talk) 20:29, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pinging me here, I was wrong, I should have inserted an edit summary. Anyway, I thought that a simpler and more readable version would be better; if you look at other similar articles, like List of Presidents of the United States or List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, they don’t have a summary of leaders’ tenure, like this one had. In my view, we can keep also the previous version, but I think that a simpler version should be preferred. -- Nick.mon (talk) 21:50, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Premature inclusion of von der Leyen in list of Presidents?
Per wp:BRD, I reverted the inclusion of Ursula von der Layen in the list of Presidents, and now invite discussion as to whether it is or is not premature to include her in the list. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * , she is not one of the presidents, she is only a nominee. Even if the EP confirms her, she still won't become President until 1 October. Her nomination is clearly reported in the lead and that should be enough per now. Per WP:CRYSTAL, we should not foretell the future. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:48, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Numbered presidencies
I have removed "Nth President" from the infoboxes for each President because this is applying a US convention to the EU, where it is not customary let alone formal. This is WP:SYNTH. If it is to be given, a citation from europa.eu will be needed to evidence it. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no problem with writing in the body that UvdL is the fourteenth President, we just can't say that this is her title. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:55, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

2019 election
The 2019 election, ignoring the Spitzenkandidat process, should be added to the relevant section. As I'm not sure how this would change the "Criticism" subsection there, I suggest whoever has written up the "Spitzenkandidat" section to take a look at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Damunik (talk • contribs) 09:16, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Template of "Infobox official post" should mention the term - year of start and foreseen ending
The "Infobox", is what appears on the top-right of the page = a summary of key facts. I think it should include when the 5 year term starts and ends for a president, because it is confusing when it starts: the EU elections have ended, it takes a while for new coalitions to form, propose candidates for president and for the president to be elected and taking office: when does the 5 years term start and end? Thy, SvenAERTS (talk) 12:13, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Elected?
The word "elected" is not correct English usage in this sentence, Each new President is nominated by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament, for a five-year term.even though it accurately reports the wp:primary source:

It seems evident that the author of the source was not fully fluent in English and has mistranslated from a very similar word in another language. In English, an election is one where the electorate chooses from a list of candidates. In the case of the President of the Commission, the only option open to the Parliament is endorse (or reject) the person proposed by the Council. The [s]election phase is already over: the Council has already made the choice between possible candidates.

Secondary English-mother-tongue sources more accurately report the reality of process: "The Parliament must also approve the President of the European Commission". " The procedure is that the governments of the member states jointly select a commission president, who is then approved by Parliament".

I will wp:BEBOLD and revise the article accordingly, later today. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)


 * "'It seems evident that the author of the source was not fully fluent in English and has mistranslated from a very similar word in another language.'" - No, the word "elect" was deliberately chosen and differentiates from the word "approved" which appeared prior to the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty reforms. This is in all languages. This was a major focal point of discussions during the Convention that proceeded the Constitutional Treaty, and would later be used as a justification for the trial of the Spitzenkandidaten process. I also think calling into doubt the technical prowess of the army of professional EU legal translators and proofreaders to justify this bold move is, in and of itself, pretty arrogant. Luxofluxo (talk) 08:31, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * See WP:DUCK. Being offered a choice to accept or reject is not an election, no matter how it is dressed up. The Parliament was very unhappy that the candidate that they had actually elected (the Spitzenkandidat) being rejected by the Council. [FWIW, I consider the current arrangement to be the sensible one: the Commission is not a government and IMO its leader and commissioners should be appointed by the heads of member governments, but that takes us into WP:NOTFORUM territory so I'll stop there.]
 * The Treaty is a WP:PRIMARY source and Wikipedia principles say that we should reflect the consensus of WP:SECONDARY sources. I haven't found any that consider that the procedure open to Parliament is a true election. I won't insist that this is featured in body content but it certainly needs at least a footnote. It would be seriously WP:UNDUE to conceal Parliament's discomfiture, which the two sources I found only hint at. It could be stated far more strongly. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 13:43, 29 September 2022 (UTC)