Talk:Preston By-pass/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 09:35, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll give this a go.

Couple of obvious issues - I'm not sure this meets the "broad in coverage" part of the criteria as there are two main sources that haven't been used. Firstly, "On Roads" by Joe Moran includes some extra information, including events of the first day of construction, a general postwar "make do and mend" attitude to the work, and the early bad weather closure. Secondly, what you call "Millbank Systems" is the Parliamentary Hansard and, particularly in the pre-BBC Parliament era, a vitally important public resource so we can fact check what MPs actually said in a debate. A quick search shows many, many hits of information. (See M11 link road protest for how this can be effective). Also, if you have a Times subscription (and if you don't, pop into your local library and get one!), you will probably find a lot of first-hand information. (See A303 road as an example).

Specific comments will follow: Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:35, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

 * Some of the other fields in the infobox look wrong. There has never been a 8.25-mile long motorway around Preston run by Highways England.
 * HE mention has been removed
 * HE mention has been removed


 * This article needs to show that it is worth an article in its own right, M6 motorway is only 10K of prose and hence this can't be considered a content fork for size reasons. To that end, having an infobox that tries to synthesize information from the late 1950s with that in the present day, might be counterproductive. I think perhaps we shouldn't have an infobox at all for the moment.
 * I'll consider this when I have worked through your other feedback, as I am of the belief the infobox does positively affect the article's initial visual impact and can contain useful core information that may be overlooked easily if absorbed into the prose.
 * I feel the infobox should remain included, as your suggestion to remove it appears to stem from a sense of preference than being necessary. Bungle (talk • contribs) 17:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Lead

 * The lead is a little too long according to what the manual of style says. For a 9.5K prose article, you want one or two paragraphs. I suggest we revisit this at the end of the review.
 * I have trimmed it ever so slightly, though I am also concious that the lead should cover the most fundamental aspects of the article, which is essentially what is covered (that being, the delays during construction and the significant reconstruction in the late 20th century)
 * Okay, I was expecting the article to expand a little (which it has) so the lead length would become less of an issue in that case. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  21:00, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The article size is now approx 25% larger than at the start of the review, so hopefully the lead size in proportion to the main prose is now more acceptable? Bungle (talk • contribs) 17:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Have changed to The Preston By-pass was Britain's first constructed motorway, designed and engineered by Lancashire County Council surveyor James Drake as part of a larger initiative..
 * Have changed to The Preston By-pass was Britain's first constructed motorway, designed and engineered by Lancashire County Council surveyor James Drake as part of a larger initiative..


 * Have made note of the 3-lane expansion scheme that occured during the mid 1960s
 * Have made note of the 3-lane expansion scheme that occured during the mid 1960s
 * Have made note of the 3-lane expansion scheme that occured during the mid 1960s
 * Have made note of the 3-lane expansion scheme that occured during the mid 1960s
 * Have made note of the 3-lane expansion scheme that occured during the mid 1960s



Planning

 * I have amended "all" to "north-south" as a preliminary measure, given it was the primary means of travelling from the north of Preston to its south; the A59 covered East-West traffic respectively.
 * Okay, that makes sense. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  21:01, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, that makes sense. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  21:01, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Changed to: The motorway was seen as an experiment for the future construction of motorways, with many lessons and techniques learnt that would help towards successful formation of subsequent motorways.
 * Changed to: The motorway was seen as an experiment for the future construction of motorways, with many lessons and techniques learnt that would help towards successful formation of subsequent motorways.
 * Changed to: The motorway was seen as an experiment for the future construction of motorways, with many lessons and techniques learnt that would help towards successful formation of subsequent motorways.


 * "Following the proposals being made public" - what proposals are these?
 * I have added a little extra info into the paragraph so that this line may make more sense (the ref also simply refers to "the proposals" also, though notes a large-scale model was erected too which I have noted in the prose).


 * Have reworded largely as suggested
 * Have reworded largely as suggested

Construction

 * "The road was constructed to not be a long length of straight road" - why was this an issue? Even today we have very straight Roman Roads such as large portions of the A5, and we seem to cope! ❌
 * Reading the opening booklet, this seemed to be a valid concern of the time, with a view that straight roads would be "boring" and increase the likelyhood of accidents. I feel as a genuine concern of the time, it's justified for inclusion, regardless whether the same view is felt in contemporary times.
 * Okay, might just be worth explaining that in the article, since fast moving motorway traffic was new at the time. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  20:31, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I feel the current explanation suffices, given the concerns were due to a belief that drivers would otherwise get bored; I don't see anything definitive that suggests the curved alignment is related to traffic speeds.


 * Have changed to: 'Chief engineer Drake proposed the bridges be printed different colours to enhance aesthetics and help alleviate driver boredom, contrary to conventional practice of using neutral colours; drivers subsequently reacted favourably to alternately coloured bridges.'
 * Have changed to: 'Chief engineer Drake proposed the bridges be printed different colours to enhance aesthetics and help alleviate driver boredom, contrary to conventional practice of using neutral colours; drivers subsequently reacted favourably to alternately coloured bridges.'
 * Have changed to: 'Chief engineer Drake proposed the bridges be printed different colours to enhance aesthetics and help alleviate driver boredom, contrary to conventional practice of using neutral colours; drivers subsequently reacted favourably to alternately coloured bridges.'

Opening

 * The ref used was not appropriate, so I have moved it, meaning the ref for this section is the same one from page 4 of the opening pdf booklet, which lists 3 figures of £334,431 (Samlesbury Bridge), £193,690 (Higher Walton Bridge) and £2,432,360 for the Motorway and remaining bridges; collectively it calculates to an overall cost of that stated in the article
 * The ref used was not appropriate, so I have moved it, meaning the ref for this section is the same one from page 4 of the opening pdf booklet, which lists 3 figures of £334,431 (Samlesbury Bridge), £193,690 (Higher Walton Bridge) and £2,432,360 for the Motorway and remaining bridges; collectively it calculates to an overall cost of that stated in the article


 * As above, figures on openening booklet pdf page 4.
 * ✅ regarding removal italics.
 * ✅ regarding removal italics.



Operation

 * I have in-line referenced an existing source which notes this information specifically
 * I have in-line referenced an existing source which notes this information specifically


 * "the motorway had to temporarily close to undergo emergency resurfacing work" - the source given also suggests it was impressive it had opened at all, given the weather and conditions, which would be worth mentioning
 * I am concerned about adding that, as it comes across as opinion rather than encylopaedic fact (if I were to say something was impressive, that would surely be my viewpoint that couldn't be considered hard-fact that it were indeed the case). I have however made other previous amendments around this area of the prose.

Upgrades

 * As is typical with modern day engineering works, hard shoulders may be used as a lane when other lanes are closed; the lack of a hard shoulder at the original bridges meant there would be no continuous utilisation of the hard shoulder for this purpose
 * As is typical with modern day engineering works, hard shoulders may be used as a lane when other lanes are closed; the lack of a hard shoulder at the original bridges meant there would be no continuous utilisation of the hard shoulder for this purpose


 * Some dictionaries define it, but I have changed to significance
 * Some dictionaries define it, but I have changed to significance


 * Have added a paragraph about the M61's connection, but I don't know why we need to specifically state "why" - a connection from one motorway to another is surely self explaining?
 * I was thinking more of the reason the M61 was built, which is kind of obvious - to get Greater Manchester traffic up north. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  21:02, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have now explicitly stated this to prevent confusion, despite, as you say, it being obvious. Bungle (talk • contribs) 17:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I have now explicitly stated this to prevent confusion, despite, as you say, it being obvious. Bungle (talk • contribs) 17:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Route

 * As I mentioned earlier, the Lancs CC official opening booklet source needs page numbers
 * Changed to: 'The routes around the city of Preston, including the by-pass as part of the modern day M6 motorway, are recognised as being some of the most congested in the country...'
 * Changed to: 'The routes around the city of Preston, including the by-pass as part of the modern day M6 motorway, are recognised as being some of the most congested in the country...'


 * The list of exits seems to be anachronistic - the original bypass did not have junction numbers. It also only had the start, the end, and the A59 junction in the middle, so there seem to be more rows than there ought to be. Also, are you sure the co-ordinates reflect the locations of junctions as they were originally constructed? (IIRC Salmesbury changed a bit because of the 4-lane widening works)
 * Another editor has made some changes here, particularly to the junction configuration. Separately, the co-ordinates take the by-pass as it is now; I wouldn't know how to go about getting exact co-ordinates for as it was then, though you'd have to consider whether knowing where the original alignment was would add any benefit (especially as it's geographically in the same position, except for several metres in some parts.. rather negligable). Whilst the article fundamentally covers the history of the motorway itself, largely due to its significance, it is still to this day (for all intents and purposes) the Preston By-pass and thus data for its contemporary formation I believe is equally relevant.
 * Can you enlarge the route diagram a bit, I wonder? By doing that, the reader can see the strip map against the junction table and work out what's what. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  21:05, 31 March 2017 (UTC) ✅
 * I have enlarged the map, which fits ok given the prose has also expanded. Bungle (talk • contribs) 17:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Images

 * On the opening booklet, it's mentioned in written form more than once, as well as featuring graphically on the included map, so the road was deemed important enough then to be noteworthy, regardless whether it has any junctions (a configuration unchanged to this day)
 * On the opening booklet, it's mentioned in written form more than once, as well as featuring graphically on the included map, so the road was deemed important enough then to be noteworthy, regardless whether it has any junctions (a configuration unchanged to this day)
 * On the opening booklet, it's mentioned in written form more than once, as well as featuring graphically on the included map, so the road was deemed important enough then to be noteworthy, regardless whether it has any junctions (a configuration unchanged to this day)
 * On the opening booklet, it's mentioned in written form more than once, as well as featuring graphically on the included map, so the road was deemed important enough then to be noteworthy, regardless whether it has any junctions (a configuration unchanged to this day)

Summary

 * I think there's a significant amount of work to do here to make this article meet the GA criteria. Particular problems are a lack of comprehensiveness and the prose, which just tends to be overlong in places (I've trimmed some of it down; see those edits as examples) I'm not going to fail it outright, but I'll see what work can be done in the next few days and then make a decision. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  16:31, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comprehensive review of the article, which is considerable in length despite only a modest article size. I am encouraged that you feel there is scope for improvement within the current review and that your concerns can be addressed. I'll seek to analyse your feedback throughout the next 1-3 days and perhaps at that point allow you a clearer indication as to how to progress with the decision. Also, thanks for pointing out a literature source on the bypass, which I could not myself discover despite numerous attempts to uncover further references. I'll be sure to check whether there is additional information that can be utilised. Bungle (talk • contribs) 16:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Many points I believe have now been addressed, with a few still to go. There are some where I have resolved, or continued with a further query that may benefit from your reply and personal thoughts (to determine whether there is still further work needed on them, or if they can be considered self-resolving). Would appreciate if you could offer an opinion on those too. Bungle (talk • contribs) 06:18, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I've gone through and responded to your issues, and also done a bit more of a copyedit to make the prose a bit punchier. I think we're getting closer to GA status now, so well done for sticking with it. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  21:17, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I feel the article is now at a state now whereby a GA decision may be considered, less minor personal preferences. The points raised I feel have been addressed sufficiently, or in the cases where not, then an explanation has been offered as to why I may have felt a change unjust. I have also made use of multiple hansard references which have been useful in offering some factual data. If you could reread and advise areas you feel may still be lacking then I could look to see whether further expansion is necessary and possible, but if not then a conclusion may be appropriate. Bungle (talk • contribs) 17:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I had a read through last night and did a final copyedit. I've just had a look through the recent additions and made one minor fix. I think what we've got does explain the topic well enough and is not in danger of being merged into the M6 now it's 11K of text. I also saw the conversation on the talk page; I think you're right that this article should be focused about the original project and its importance in 20th century transport planning, which is where all the sources point to as well. The current M6 around here is just another boring motorway (sorry, don't like most motorways though the view by the M6 around Tebay looks great). So I'm going to mark the review as passed - well done. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  18:26, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking this on Ritchie and for passing this as GA - certainly now it is considerably more befitting than the state I found it in 3 months ago! Bungle (talk • contribs) 21:46, 1 April 2017 (UTC)