Talk:Pretzel Logic

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There's a contradiction here -- the article says "Rikki" reached #3, but the table at the bottom says #4. Anyone who knows which one is correct, please fix this.

Is there anyone out there who can do a track-by-track personnel listing? Dan Hewins (talk) 19:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Pretzel Logic, cryptographic device.
Hello.

Pretzel Logic is also the name of a cryptographic device based somewhat on the Enigma machine but operates in conjunction with a teletypewriter. Pretzel Logic is also the current codename for a converted TDD/TTY to act as a cryptographic device. Note that the personal computer has rendered a dedicated Pretzel Logic device obsolete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cowthief (talk • contribs) 00:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC)


 * If you're querying about creating an article about this cryptographic device, you've come to the wrong place. Try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Technology.--Martin IIIa (talk) 13:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Other essay
I realise that being editor for The Other Journal and having a master of arts in counseling psychology doesn't necessarily qualify one to be a music critic. But I found that John Totten's 2011 essay included quite a lot that was relevant to the album and the band: You know what they say - where Seattle School of Theology and Psychology leads, the Hit 100 generally follows. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 03:23, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

"Trombone" solo claim incorrect
"On Duke Ellington's "East St. Louis Toodle-oo", he [Baxter] imitates a ragtime mute-trombone solo.[5] "

-- Contrary to the Rolling Stone article cited here, this is inaccurate. The original Ellington recording prominently features trumpet, not trombone, work using a plunger mute, played by trumpeter Bubber Miley. That's what the talk box guitar on this Steely Dan version is emulating.

The Wikipedia article about the Ellington recording correctly notes this -- see East St. Louis Toodle-Oo.

The reference to 'ragtime' doesn't really make musical or historical sense, either.

That article about the Ellington recording says the talk box guitar was played by Becker, while this article says it was Baxter. I don't know which is correct, but I always thought it was Baxter.JohnMason (talk) 14:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the article to use the more general "horn", which is correct whether it is a trombone or trumpet. FWIW, the cited source in this article says trombone.  I've also taken out the ragtime.  This book notes it was Baxter (and also says it was based on a Tricky Sam Nanton trombone solo).  -- Jayron 32 14:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for making that change. The cited source (Rolling Stone article) is just incorrect about that. (I'm a jazz trombonist.) I'm not aware of any recording by Ellington of the piece featuring Nanton instead of Miley, but if you find one, please let me know.
 * Here are two Ellington recordings of the piece both featuring Miley on plunger trumpet. The similarity to the talk box guitar in the Steely Dan version should be obvious:


 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoDm_O71iYk


 * and


 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz0geSauBwI JohnMason (talk) 15:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * 1927, so those clips both out of copyright (the latter has correct permission anyway)? I'd be happy to see "muted trumpet" there, as it is obvious. Is it better to rely on WP:OR or (mis)use what is evidently an incorrect source? The Rolling Stone source is also subscriptions-only, for me at least. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:33, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Hm, a little while ago I had no trouble getting to the RS article by clicking the external link in the footnotes in this Wikipedia article, but now it's locked. But I did a google search and accessed it that way ("rolling stone pretzel logic review"). The sentence in question in the review is: "At one point — in the vintage “East St. Louis Toodle-oo” — he duplicates note-for-note a ragtime mute-trombone solo."JohnMason (talk) 15:43, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for copying here. Well, yes, "ragtime" is wrong (our article calls it "jungle music"!) and can be deleted. But "trombone" is also wrong. I guess we can use the RS to support "mute", lol. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * One more note: here's someone else writing about it and getting it correct (this is at https://altrockchick.com/2014/06/10/classic-music-review-pretzel-logic-by-steely-dan/):


 * “East St. Louis Toodle-Oo” is an Ellington-Miley composition that was Duke Ellington’s first big hit in 1927. [...] While I have a definite preference for the original because I adore old ’78’s and Bubber Miley’s knockout muted trumpet solo, Steely Dan does a more-than-credible job with the piece. Jeff Baxter captures echoes of Miley’s tones on his guitar solo, and the combo performing on this track is Ellington-tight."JohnMason (talk) 15:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Better use that as the source then? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

This is going deeper on this than I originally intended, but I looked up the Brian Sweet book linked above re the SD track and the Tricky Sam Nanton connection. From what I can see, the book correctly notes that Baxter's guitar (which it calls 'wah-wah' rather than the more accurate 'talk box' -- those are two different guitar effects) is taking the Bubber Miley/trumpet role in the track, while the pedal steel part in the bridge or B section is based on Nanton's solo on the bridge of the second of the Ellington recordings I linked above. That Nanton-based part is not, as I read it, the part being talked about in the original quote that started all this. That reference should be to the emulation of Bubber Miley's plunger trumpet playing by Baxter's guitar (it does seem to be Baxter).JohnMason (talk) 01:38, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The plot thickens. This site, claiming to be a recreation of the liner notes, has Becker (not Baxter) as the guitarist.  Looking for a better source (that one is not a reliable source).  I don't have a physical copy of the album to check.  If someone does, that may be useful.  -- Jayron 32 12:54, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I did check my copy of A Decade of Steely Dan, which has track-by-track credits. Can confirm this is accurate, which ONLY lists Walter Becker as a guitarist.  Not sure if the other sources are more accurate or not, but at least according to liner notes from one album, Skunk Baxter didn't play on that track.  -- Jayron 32 13:01, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There are 227 versions to check at discogs.com! Alas, I only have this one, which has a pull-out lyrics sheet but no musician credits (apart from: "Dean Parks' plangent banjo on "East St. Louis Toodle-Oo"!) Martinevans123 (talk) 13:32, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at the CD booklet for "Decade" right now, and it lists only Becker as a guitarist. -- Jayron 32 13:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * That is interesting. I wouldn't have associated Becker with that kind of playing, but I don't feel super confident about that. I wonder who played the pedal steel, is there any indication of that?JohnMason (talk) 13:49, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * And all of this is assuming the liner notes from "A Decade of..." is correct. Maybe it isn't.  But, one shouldn't slight Becker's guitar skills.  His solos are rare, but when he does play them, they are VERY good.  Josie is an example of his work on guitar, Rick Beato just did a video on it recently.  No idea on the pedal steel.  -- Jayron 32 14:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, I wasn't slighting his guitar skills, I just meant stylistically I didn't necessarily hear Becker in that guitar playing. But he rarely took the spotlight in that way, it seems.JohnMason (talk) 23:30, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, I'm back for one more. At the Wikipedia page about the original Ellington composition and recording, East St. Louis Toodle-Oo, I found the link to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5zTOxJOBl4

where Jeff "Skunk" Baxter very clearly says at the beginning of the video that Walter Becker plays the melody, meaning the Bubber Miley trumpet part, on talk box guitar, and that he, Baxter, did the trombone part on pedal steel. (He also says it's a Billy Strayhorn composition, which I don't think is correct, but that's irrelevant here.)

This would seem to settle the question and to be usable as a reference for changing the article to say something like 'plunger-muted trumpet,' which is what I'd recommend as most accurate and detailed, especially with an acknowledgement that Bubber Miley's original playing is the basis for this version.JohnMason (talk) 19:44, 12 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, he clearly says he played the trombone part on pedal steel, which was "the obvious candidate". I think we should take his word for it. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:57, 12 March 2022 (UTC)