Talk:Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Archive 1

Chernobyl vs. BWR/PWR
What happened at Chernobyl can't happen at a BWR or PWR. You can't get a positive void coefficient, you can't operate in that portion of the power/flow map, you can't get a steam explosion, there's no graphite to burn, and non-Soviet Union reactors all have containment buildings. While meltdowns are assumed to be possible to occur, Chernobyl will always be unique. Simesa 16:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Please see "BWR/PWr" in Talk below. Simesa 29 June 2005 20:29 (UTC)

Energy Bill of 2005
If nuclear power related legislation not specifically related to Price-Anderson gets signed into law, a paragraph will be placed in Nuclear Power 2010 Program. Simesa 18:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Self Evident Risk
I have a proposal - specifically for those who claim the risk of a chernobyl is unlikely.

Just this one question:

If there is no risk, why does the nuclear industry need a Price Anderson Act? Benjamin Gatti 04:14, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Please read paragraph 4. 216.164.138.57 05:28, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Read it. If that is the answer - why doesn't the Price Ansderson act cover windmills? They have financial risks as well - obviously much less - but if the PA provided equal justice for all, it would cover investors in windmills in the rare event that they suffered financial loss.


 * I have no objection to covering windmills, or even with fully subsidizing them. However, bank depositors are covered by the FDIC - you wouldn't want that to go away, even though it is exactly analogous to Price-Anderson.  The railroads wouldn't have been built without land grants, or the airlines without mail contracts.  That's one reason why we have a government. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)


 * In the spirit of honesty - it burns me up that we have spent so much money on nuclear energy, and that we continue to spend _any_, when we haven't made an _Equal_ effort to harness renewable energy. That outright anger extends to any subsidy, liability waiver, in short an _inequity_ which gives one clearly dangerous industry an advantage over much cleaner and safer alternatives - which i am actively involved in developing [www.windwavesandsun.com ]. Is that a bias - yes - am i honest about it - yes. In addition, my wife is from Kiev, her family includes people who were sent in to clean up chernobyl while it was hot, most of which are now dead and dying of terrible diseases. Is that bias or experience. Some voices here are "nuclear engineers" does that imply more experience in the hazards of nuclear than someone who has lived in kiev and dined with people suffering the effects of chernobyl? Maybe not. I doubt anyone wants to hear from a voice which is so uninformed as to have no perspective whatsoever. I'm not against government funding public goods - but it must be open and honest. If nuclear is safe - why do we have Price-Anderson, if is dangerous how is it a public good - why not alternatives such as wind?Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 00:55 (UTC)
 * As I pointed out below, debating various positions is interesting and fun, but pretty much pointless here at Wikipedia. We aren't here to pass judgment on what tack is right or wrong or better, we're here to summarize pertinent information -- particularly on pro and con debates on subjects -- on encyclopeda articles.  Our own personal opinions about which side is right are largely irrelevant.  See Wikiquette, NPOV. Best &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 02:30 (UTC)


 * Do you really believe that any nuclear engineer doesn't know exactly what happened at both Chernobyl and TMI? Simesa 30 June 2005 10:50 (UTC)

Uninsurable
Three Mile Island only cost $70 million despite a "back door" leak out of containment, so the risk is plainly insurable (for American plants, at least). The problem is in what maximum amount to insure for. The government apparently deems the Price-Anderson amounts and provisions to be adequate, so the industry is insured.

Your car insurance has limits that won't nearly cover a worst-possible-case accident. Nuclear is much better insured. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)


 * I rather think that 275 million drivers each with 1,000,000 liability is closer to 275,000,000,000,000 dollars so the "Industry" of car operators has some pool of 275 Trillion Dollars - enough to cover the 250 Billion in losses from chernobyl one thousand times. That is what adequate coverage looks like. Even if the number of insured drivers is half the pop, its still adequate. 9 Billion in the whole pool is inadequate. - Why is there language that congress will consider picking up the rest. Insurance says DANGER.Benjamin Gatti 28 June 2005 21:48 (UTC)


 * The industry has liability of $9.5 billion PER ACCIDENT. Your drivers have $1 million per accident - there's no pool coverage.  You should have seen that. Simesa 28 June 2005 21:56 (UTC)

No industry and no individual is insured for the worst possible accident. Why should nuclear power be held to a standard that any industry and anyone driving a vehicle? They are already held to Strict liability which means that they have to pay regardless of fault, whereas most industries are only liable if fault can be proven. As for uninsurable, that could only be determined by repealing Price Anderson. pstudier 2005 June 28 22:24 (UTC)

Responsibility
The industry is liable for AT LEAST $9.5 billion, so your statement is patently incorrect. Simesa 28 June 2005 16:39 (UTC)

From RFC
These recent additions, such as: The Price-Anderson Act, addresses the uninsurable risks of nuclear energy and research by passing the costs and the risks of a nuclear accident from the owners of production to the labor class.  are POV. It's fine to cite someone criticizing the act for passing the cost of insurance on to the taxpayers, but we can't just make a blanket assertion like that; the language is too authoritative. This has been around a long time, surely you can find some critical sources to buttress the point you'd like to make. Wasn't the idea, back in 1957, that nukes were an immature industry, and as such had to be protected from insurance risks? Interesting that it's still considered immature. But that's neither here nor there in terms of this particular phraseology. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 28, 2005 19:23 (UTC)


 * How does that square with Windmills? Wave Energy OTEC?. They are an immature technology, they have certain financial risks, why don't they need an cost-shift to the taxpayers?Benjamin Gatti 28 June 2005 21:44 (UTC)
 * Does it matter? How is that relevant to the article?  I'm asking seriously, not to be flip.  If you have a source that's critical of the Price-Anderson Act because of the nuclear industry's current status (i.e. no longer an immature industry), feel free to cite it.  Otherwise it's sort of irrelevant.  Our own opinions on the matter -- any matter (even mine) -- are immaterial.  What we are here to do is summarize pertinent information, including pro and con debates, about various encyclopedic subjects, not pass judgment ourselves on which theory is right or wrong ot better (see Wikiquette).  Again, if you have a source that's critical of the nuclear industry vis a vis insurance, feel free to cite it.  I'm sure there must be some out there. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 28, 2005 23:43 (UTC)
 * Here's some criticism here, and here, and here. There's lots of information to work with.  Personally I agree that there should be some critical voices in this article, but it has to be done in an NPOV fashion.  I would be glad to work with you, Benjamin, to do that.  I would recommend you start out by reading some of these websites and then taking a crack at summarizing their criticisms of the act inside the article (read NPOV and Cite sources for some guidelines).  Best &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 28, 2005 23:53 (UTC)

Blither and Blather
Price Anderson is an INSURANCE thing - it "makes money available in case of damages" That is what insurance thingies do. I hardly think anyone needs this article to spell out what insurance does. So expanded words are really just filler, and ought to be dealt the deletonious stroke of the mouse.

"Because no one had (or has) quantified wh ..." What trite, either they had, or they hadn't. In really Hiroshima and nagasaki, as well as covert experiments on animals and people had clearly established a range of very bad things that could happen as a result of nuclear exposure. This is blither blather.

"Because no one had (or has) quantified what the maximum coverage necessary would be for a PWR or BWR, financiers were unwilling to insure the possible risk. Therefore, no private operator in the United States would have built a nuclear facility ..."

Is this what passes for encyclopedic facts these days? This is a string of interdependant negatives, none of which can be proved either way. Perhaps this would be better as an chapter in scient_logy. Let's reduce it to verifyable fact.

"(commonly called simply the Price-Anderson Act)" the Act is not commonly known much less commonly called, the redirect is adequate. Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 03:40 (UTC)
 * Ben, I agree that the article still needs work. All I've had time to do so far is add some background, but will work on it more when I have a minute.  I'll be very busy today and probably tomorrow so I may not be able to get back to this in any detail for a few days. Also, with all due respect, the act is commonly shortened to Price-Anderson; nobody refers to it by its full name.  Additionally, please refrain from making uncivil remarks about anyone's contributions &mdash; please read Civility; calling contributions "blather" is not helpful to building an encyclopedia.  We're all here for the same reason, to make the article better.  &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 12:22 (UTC)

Its a subsidy thing
Subsidies encourage a specific outcome in otherwise competative industries. Their purpose is to encourage private investment in the outcome the government has predestinated to win.

It is called picking winners and losers.

Most theories of economics call it socialism, communism, dictatorships, command economies, etc,

Economic theories which abhor picking wiinners include capitalism, laize faire (sp) economics, libertarianism, etc ... Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 04:14 (UTC)
 * I have already pointed out several ways for you to insert such criticism in the article. As long as you cite a source that is critical of these practices, it's a perfectly acceptable way of building an article.  There's a natural opening right after the sentence where the background info begins to talk about its detractors. Again, I'll have more time to help you on this later. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 12:25 (UTC)

On Fairness
Here's my opinion on why the Act as a subsidy should be spelled out in detail.

Its insurance, and yet the article states that it is: "Insurance which makes available a pool of funds in the event of an accident." That is a tautology. If its insurance, it pools risk, and pays out on unexpected losses, spelling it out is tedious, but to be fair, we ought to spell out the subsidy as well, how it works, and its purpose - which in every case is to "direct private investment to support the outcome of a competative market which the government preordains." In the general case, subsidies encourage the least effecient market outcome because subsidies disable the group-intelligence of many individual investors, by dictating higher rates of returns for handpicked winners. Subsides unlevel the playing field and give economic advantages to otherwise uncompetative alternatives.

The Price Anderson Act is an open admission that nuclear power is dangerous and unable to compete with wind and other safe clean power sources in a fair competation. It is the WHY and the HOW of nuclear power. Benjamin Gatti 29 June 2005 12:46 (UTC)


 * I don't accept many of your conclusions. Subsidies don't necessarily give the least efficient market outcome.  Nuclear isn't non-competitive - it certainly beats oil.  PAA only indicates that the magmitude of insurance needed is unknown. Simesa 29 June 2005 18:43 (UTC)
 * Again, it's really immaterial what your (or my) opinions are on the topic. Wikipedia isn't a soapbox for advocacy, and these talk pages aren't to endlessly debate positions of policy or issues -- it's to bring up problems with POV, accuracy, etc., in an article.  From Wikiquette:  Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk ("discussion") pages are not a place to debate value judgements about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use the Talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 18:47 (UTC)

Parity
I have tried to express the subsidy aspect of the Act in parity with the insurance aspect. Were possible i used similar phrasing and presentation. Perhaps equal time will prevail. Remember the DOE calls it a subsidy. If it walks like a subsidy, talks like a subsidy, smells like a subsidy - it's probawobbily a subsidy.


 * While the industry and the DOE disagree on whether PAA is a subsidy, I'm content to call it one. What I disagree with is that it is wealthfare - this subsidy has a specific purpose necessary if we're to have nuclear power. (Whether or not to want nuclear power is POV here.) Simesa 29 June 2005 17:59 (UTC)
 * There are plenty of groups out there that have criticized this as just that -- wealthfare. And it's fine to summarize a group like Public Citizen's criticism in that realm.  But you cannot simply assert it as a matter of fact inside the article.  Think about what you're doing when you make edits like these. Instead of trying to bull through these items and make them statements of fact, in violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policies, properly cite the criticism and then you'll be fine. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 18:03 (UTC)

Kyoto Protocol
While the Kyoto Protocol certainly is nuclear-related, it belongs in nuclear power, not PAA.

In any event, nuclear power, fusion and renewables would all satisfy Kyoto equally well, as the Protocol makes no recommendations as to how to obtain the greenhouse gas reductions. Simesa 29 June 2005 18:42 (UTC)

Recent removal of comments
Comments in an article are useful for asking questions, or as expansion notes. But please don't turn them into a debate inside the article itself. That gets confusing for people who are trying to edit the article. I have removed the comment in question, which was becoming a platform for debate, and reproduce it below :

&middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 19:12 (UTC)

BWR/PWr
Hey -- I took out the reference to BWR/PWr and instead said something like "certain nuclear power plants" -- as a lay person, bwr/pwr makes really no sense to me and I imagine the vast ajority of people who might come upon this article would agree. But I don't want to remove any important context. So can you maybe explain to me what these things are and why you thought it was important to include them in the article? Just in layman's terms. thanks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 19:41 (UTC)


 * True - I didn't clarify that, did I. BWRs boiling water reactors and PWRs pressurized water reactors are the only two kinds operating in the U.S. (except for three odd research reactors at INEEL).  Looking back, that paragraph is redundant - sort of a combimation of parts of your current paragraphs 2 and 4.  I like your current version. Simesa 29 June 2005 20:13 (UTC)


 * [ Boiling water reactors operate with about 1000 psi inside the reactor vessel, and allow the water to boil inside the reactor vessel at that pressure - then the steam goes to the turbine. Pressurized water reactors operate with about 2000 psi pressure inside the reactor vessel - the water doesn't boil, so no steam yet - the pressurized water goes to heat exchangers called "steam generators", where steam is made with clean water that hasn't gone through the reactor vessel - that clean steam goes to the turbines (there's a picture at the bottom of PWR).  PWRs are used on ships because the water doesn't slosh around inside the reactor vessel, and the first commercial US nuclear power plant, the Shippingport Reactor, was actually a reactor made for a big ship. ] Simesa 29 June 2005 20:26 (UTC)

paa and spurring the nuke industry
That was fun.. just got evacuated from the Capitol. Anyway... Benjamin, it is widely accepted that PAA helped to spur the nuke industry. I did not make the assertion myself, my addition said "Many believe." If you'd like to find a source that refutes that claim, feel free to add it. As for me, you can find my source in this nonpartisan Congressional Research Service report to Congress on the PAA and other nuclear energy issues:. I will add it to the article. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 29, 2005 23:11 (UTC)


 * What i do object to is Standards-Nased POV. If one said can say "Many Believe", than the other is equally justified in asserting that "Few Voices today assert that uclear is so vital to anything that it warrents suspending the constitution." See - good for the goose - good for the gander, I really believe that any system of government will be decent if it makes one rule for all. Saying I can't say Few Voices today - while the other pov can say many believe is unfair to the issue, and inherently NPOV. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 00:31 (UTC)
 * If you have a source, feel free to cite it. Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 00:35 (UTC)

remove POV assertions
I removed: ''Countries which do not punish bad actors invariably promote corruption. All fair minded individuals will agree that it is not fair to ask alternatives technologies which are safer to compete with nuclear when the rules are tilted so heavily in favor of one side. In other words, if changing the law so that businesses cannot be punished for placing peoples lives at risk, then we ought to change the laws for everyone.''


 * Wikipedia is not: a blog, an essay repository, Usenet, or anywhere else where you are encouraged to insert your personal opinions.  If you have a source that states these things in the context of the Price-Anderson Act, feel free to cite it.  Otherwise, opinions that are presented as encyclopedic fact have no place in this article.  Have you read NPOV and Cite sources? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 03:23 (UTC)
 * Just in case you haven't, here's a bit from it you may find useful to orient your mindset: ''1. An encyclopedic article should not argue that corporations are criminals, even if the author believes it to be so. It should instead present the fact that some people believe it, and what their reasons are, and then as well it should present what the other side says.


 * ''2. An encyclopedia article should not argue that laissez-faire capitalism is the best social system. [...] It should instead present the arguments of the advocates of that point of view, and the arguments of the people who disagree with that point of view.


 * Perhaps the easiest way to make your writing more encyclopedic is to write about what people believe, rather than what is so. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 03:27 (UTC)

_____________
 * May I just say that from my point of view this entire paragraph reeks of unverfiable assertions:
 * Ben, I appreciate your questions, and they're worthwhile ones to ask. Let me see if I can answer them adequately. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)


 * "The Atomic Energy Act, which was enacted several years before Price-Anderson, was intended to spur the development of America's private nuclear power industry by allowing private industry to use atomic power for peaceful purposes, such as generating electricity."

How do we establish that its purpose was not simply to reward political contributers by giving a subsidy? - When did historians start taking politicians at their word?


 * There are multiple nonpartisan references that treat this, including two which I have cited at the bottom of the article (GAO and CRS). Here are some pertinent bits, so you don't have to look through the whole thing: Soon [after the Atomic Energy Act], government and industry experts identified a major impediment to accomplishing the act’s objective: the potential for payment of damages resulting from a nuclear accident and the lack of adequate available insurance. Unwilling to risk huge financial liability, private companies viewed even the remote specter of a serious accident as a roadblock to their participating in the development and use of nuclear power. (GAO) &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)


 * One of your cites is a yahoo:geocities freebie website, the other is the same government which refuses to release transcripts of its energy meetings - why should we trust a government which refuses to release transcripts? Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:43 (UTC)
 * It is not my source; it was added by Sietma (apologies for misspellings). I agree that it's not really appropriate as a primary source, but in this case it's not -- the GAO report is. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)


 * "But it soon became apparent that no-one was interested in building a nuclear power plant because of the lack of available insurance."

How do you prove "No-one" did anything?
 * See above. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)


 * Non responsive - how did the yahoo party or the closed door government verify that no one was interested? Benjamin Gatti
 * It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)


 * "Financial backers were were unwilling to risk the enormous financial liability that would result from a catastrophic accident at a nuclear plant."

For a price insurance is willing to do just about anything, people specialize in multi-party insurance for large scale risk. How do we prove that it was impossible? Was in uncompetative - probably so say that - but unwilling? unverifyable POV i say.


 * See above. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)
 * Nonresponsive - citing government sources asserting a negative doesn't provide independantly verifyable facts. - its POV Benjamin Gatti
 * It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)


 * "At the same time, lawmakers in the United States Congress began to worry that there was not adequate financial protection for the public in the event of an accident."

"Lawmakers began to worry" - so name one. In 1957, we had a cold war, we had duck (swoop) and cover. we were building bomb shelters under post offices. And somebody took time out to think Ohmygawd, we forgot to insure the Rocky Flats nuclear site for 9 billion dollars? - again name just one lawmaker who spent one night pacing the floor in a state of concern for lack of insurance, so i can look it up. sheesh - POV.


 * Also from GAO: In addition, congressional concern developed over ensuring adequate financial protection to the public because the public had no assurance that it would receive compensation for personal injury or property damages from the liable party in event of a serious accident. Faced with these concerns, the Congress enacted the Price-Anderson Act in September 1957. (meaning, liability plus public compensation) &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)


 * as long as we accept their word for it - without names places dates and transcripts - this is nothing better than becoming a mouthpiece for government propoganda - er PR.
 * It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. If you'd like to add a criticism of GAO reports to the article on the Government Accountability Office you're certainly able to do so, but this isn't the proper venue for that. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)

"Price-Anderson was born from those dual concerns; the act established a mechanism for compensating the public for injury or property damage in the event of a nuclear accident, and encouraged the development of nuclear power by indemnifying the industry from fault."

A Summary of unsupported statements isn't any better than the sum of its parts. Quite likely, we had just dusted Japan off with two nukes, We - that is Eisenhower - wanted to leave a legacy somewhat broader than introducing the world to a global bowl of hemlock, so he set out to create a peaceful use for nuclear radiation. Turns out it was a flop, and rather than let it die - the government changed the rules and created a headstart for nuclear power so it wouldn't have to compete. Like handicapping a horse race, the government decided nuclear needed all the weights taken off - while leaving them on for the other horses of course. Talk about POV. Subsidies are the ultimate POV.


 * See above. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)
 * Non responsive - i say the paragraph goes Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:43 (UTC)
 * It really doesn't matter; the source is appropriate, and it's properly cited. We are not here to prove or disprove ourselves the validity of different theories, only to properly summarize the debate over them. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:04 (UTC)


 * "Most analysts and researchers, including the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, credit Price-Anderson with having paved the way for America's current nuclear plants to be built."

Both "Credit" and "Paved" imply that nuclear plants are a good thing. I suggest "concur or agree" that the Act has "enabled" private nuclear enterprise in the United States. BTW "America is a continent in two parts (North and South) - the Act does not cover a continent - it covers a Nation: the US. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 05:03 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with small language changes like that; thanks for your diligence. As an aside, all of the GAO's findings were backed up by the CRS report, but I can give you extracts from that as well if you would like. The language is NPOV and properly cited. With that being said, if you feel that some additional criticism or context needs to be added, by all means, find a source that outlines that criticism and cite it properly within the article.  Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:25 (UTC)


 * The history is quoted in - Katefan0's recounting is accurate, and her presentation balanced
 * "Lawmakers began to worry" - Eisenhower, for one. Atoms for Peace.
 * POV refers to Wikipedians' POV. We strive for NPOV here.
 * Simesa 30 June 2005 10:42 (UTC)

For Ben
This language: ''In so much as no serious accidents have occured however, the potential cost of the act on taxpayers has never been realized. The real effect has been to reduce the amount of investment capital available for alternative technologies while at the same time satisfying a market demand with a subsidized good which floods the market and lowers the return on investment for non-subsidized goods. This increases the problem of reducing available capital for the most effecient solution to energy demand. As a consequence, the cost of energy is inflated due to the cost of the subsidy, plus the cost of market distortion, which is inefficiency.'' Ben, this is good critical information, but it's not presented in an NPOV fashion. Its language is too authoritative for an item that is in dispute. You need to find a source that asserts these things, then summarize within the text of the article what that source believes. Until you do that, the information will not be considered within Wikipedia's NPOV mandate. Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 14:44 (UTC)

Benjamin, your re-addition: ''In as much as no severe accidents have occured however, the potential cost of the act on taxpayers has never been realized. Many economomists believe that the effect of Subsidies generally and in this case is to reduce the amount of investment capital available for alternative technologies while at the same time satisfying a market demand with a subsidized good which floods the market and lowers the return on investment for non-subsidized goods. This further reduces available capital for the most efficient solution to energy demand. As a consequence, the cost of energy is inflated due to the cost of the subsidy, plus the cost of market distortion, which is market inefficiency.'' needs a source. Can you please provide one? Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 15:54 (UTC)
 * I'd just like to say that I'm sympathetic to your viewpoints, Benjamin, but most of my wikitime with this article has been taken up by reverting your well-meaning, but ill-structured additions, instead of helping you properly formulate the critical information you'd like to see included. If you would just take a breath for a minute, and maybe try formulating your paragraphs here on the talk page first, we could all work together a lot better I think. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 16:19 (UTC)

Dear Ketefan, In as much as I introduced the subject of Price Anderson by citing and referrencing it under "nuclear debate" and created this article in the first place, and whereas the congress is currently debating whether or not to continue the price anderson act, it is a bit disingenuous to critisize me for "ill structured additions." and the subject is hotly contested - not just here but in congress as we speak. historians have often remarked that they cannot work properly until some time has passed - in that sense, this is probably not a historical article, but very much a work in progress. If you want to invoke the spector of censorship into the spirit of wikipedia - that is your option. Just be honest with people when you do it - put a banner over the door that says "move over china - wikipedia coming through." Aside from which the first sentence structure is mine - and it is clearly better than the previous edition which focussed on the nuts and bolts of how laws are made instead of the direct meaning and effect. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 17:16 (UTC)
 * Ben, noone on Wikipedia has ownership of any article, so whether you started the article in the first place is irrelevant, though I do respect your interest in the subject. As for censorship, it's anything but -- I'm here to help you insert whatever criticism is appropriate; as I have said multiple times, I think the article needs more critical voices.  But it must be done in a proper way -- and as long as your additions are not done in an NPOV fashion (have you read it yet?), I will continue to resist their form. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 17:29 (UTC)
 * Katefan - I don't claim ownership, but really do you think anyone cares how you spend your wikitime? This is an all voluntary army. If not you, someone else will explain to the readers that long phrases occassionally get shortened and make that the theater Markee. I happen to think it is fluff (blither Blather i think i called it - not that is istn't true, but its stuff for page 23b in the trade). And you criticize me for ill structured additions? In fact my effects paragraph was properly written straight up eco101 subsidy analysis, and you found a similarly form paragraph by a large group - that was ill-formed? Truth is a battle - not on your soapopera celebrity is she pregnant type subjects - but in matters of importance - matters of national defense - subjects which are more often classified and target of disinformation - truth is a battle. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 19:30 (UTC)
 * You write: In fact my effects paragraph was properly written straight up eco101 subsidy analysis  This is precisely the problem.  Encyclopedia articles aren't term papers; that type of language is not encyclopedic style. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 19:47 (UTC)
 * In the interests of accuracy, I made the initial stub for this article. The History shows it. Ben placed a link to it in Nuclear Power on 07:15 19 June 2005 (UTC). Simesa 30 June 2005 19:40 (UTC)
 * Simesa was the first to fill out the article. When i created the wikilink - it went nowhere - therefore my insertion as a wikilink creates the article - even if it is an empty shell. The substance of the Act was covered by my contributions under Nuclear power - this in essense is a fork of nuclear power with emphasis on the PAA. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 21:33 (UTC)

"Government propaganda"
Is completely inappropriate and violates NPOV. If you'd like to insert criticisms of the Government Accountability Office or Congressional Research Service into those articles, you're more than welcome. But this article is not an appropriate venue for it. Also, I would like to respectfully observe that you seem willing to use Department of Energy documents to support your own viewpoints, and yet find government documents to be "propaganda" when they disagree. Best &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:08 (UTC)


 * When the DOE "Admits" that the PAA is a "Subsidy" - it is agreeing with its critics - so a cite in which the object of criticism admits the truth of those criticism is pretty damning evidence in my book - your mileage may vary, but if you're a reporter you really should know this - On the other hand, when the object of investigation is papering over the real issue by saying - "well it ensures compensation" - when exactly what it doesn't do is ensure compensation by f*reaking removing the standard obligation to get yourself properly insured - is blantant propoganda.
 * I was only pointing what seemed to me to be your own convenient hypocrisy. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:18 (UTC)


 * Apparent inconsistency is not the same as actual hypocrisy. I would prefer that those with a POV which is pro Neighborhood Irradiation exclusively quote Ralph Nader and Greenpeace - with whom they openly disagree - while people who are in favor of sustainable energy without military intervention (SEWMI) quote the DOE. Quoting your enemy is the highest level of intellectual neutrality. Could I gush with volumes of refernces to greenpeace against nuclear - i hope so - is it interesting - no. is it interesting when the DOE admits the PAA is a subsidy which permits felonius conduct to go unpunished - yes. The PAA in other industries would be absurd - imagine a Bank Indemnity Act - no bank can be sued - even for gross violations - lost your retirement sorry - here's an employment form for McDonalds at age eighty . No car maker or tire maker can be sued for accidents caused because they couldn't be bothered to test their products. No doctor can be sued for slicing his name into your abdomen, or injecting his patients without their knowledge with experiemental substances? If Indemnity is so great a thing - why not have it for eveyone. How about the Drunk Drivers indemnity act of 2005 - taxpayers foot the bill for any accidents. But we put a fiver on the wall so we can say something like "We have a pool of money to compensate victoms?" how do you compensate people whose children will have three legs and one eye? is $100 bucks enough? $200. How far does 9B go when the affected population is New York City 9B / 4M is some 2 thousand bucks - yeah that should do it. Here's two thousand buck to shut up and raise your vegitable. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 18:44 (UTC)
 * Why not contribute to the article on propaganda? I appreciate your opinions, but they do not particularly bear on the debate over this article.  Our own opinions are largely immaterial when it comes to building an NPOV encyclopedia article. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 18:46 (UTC)
 * I think others have demonstrated a greater ability to contribute to propoganda. Whoever can say that Price is principlay and foremost a great way to compensate victoms of knowing and intentional nuclear irradiation with a straight face is either being paid by the industry (Simesa?) or was paid by the industy, or a natural propogandista. Let's say for example that Simesa who I trust is a nuclear engineer, would not have been directed into that field by unconstitutional subsidies, instead Simesa would have contributed to alternatives to nuclear - maybe wind, or wave, or geothermal. In that scenario, we might be closer to a sustainable and safe form of energy than one which inspires terrorists. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 19:35 (UTC)
 * Let's steer back toward talking about problems with the article instead of endlessly debating things that are largely irrelevant to the task at hand. Please see my earlier quote from Wikiquette. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 19:47 (UTC)

Its the Indemnity Stupid
I object to opening this topic by stating that "It makes a pool of money available for damages."

The purpose of the act was to spur nuclear plants - indemnity

DOE states that the indemnity was "Crucial" - doesn't say the "microcosmic pool" was crucial.

We can by sychophants for the nuclear industry - but then we should mabe just move to China. As independence press, we should seperate clear propoganda from the meat of the Act. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 18:57 (UTC)
 * I agree that this particular area needs more elaboration. It's confusing and I haven't had time to really read on up how it works functionally to see how I can best help incorporate the information in the article, though.  Would welcome explanations for how it works.  Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 19:12 (UTC)

Please read...
...Don't disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:08 (UTC)

My position is that taking up the all important first sentence with a trite redefinition of terms DISRUPTS wikipedia. I disapprove of the current redundancy every bit as much you disapprove of my somewhat overly explanitory phrase.

Large Pool or Small?
We state in the beginning that it creates a large pool - changed to small - changed to just pool. Then later we state that it is dwarfed by the actual costs of just one accident. In as much as the adequacy of the pool is very much in question - and whereas the taxpayers are on the hook for this bill in any case - it is really just propoganda to say there is a pool of money "to cover damages". There is a petty cash drawer for really small damages, but everything else comes out of the man's pockets.
 * If you would like to include that criticism, find a source and cite it. Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:40 (UTC)

The Opening Should Read:

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act limits liability for nuclear plant operators. while it provides for some pooling of money to cover small nuclear, the government has agreed to charge the taxpayers for any large radiological incident, even if they are caused by the gross and willful misconduct of plant management. In addition, it caps damages and prevents punative damages against nuclear opporators even if they harm people while commiting a felony. The act currently covers all investors in nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.

Any complaints? Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)
 * I prefer the current version. This overemphasizes your POV that the act doesn't do enough to pay damages. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 20:47 (UTC)

Lets agree on a point by point basis:
 * The Act contemplates "Large" Accidents by specifically stating what it will do in that case - I don't have an action plan for when california slips into the sea - having an action plan recognizes the need for an action plan. The operative term is "Large" and it is defined as having damages larger than the pool will cover - chernobyle cost 50 times what the pool contains. Do we agree that the Act contemplates "Large ccidents"?
 * The Act deals with "Small Accidents" - defined as less than what the pool can cover. Agree?
 * The Act provides indemnity - specifically without regard for fault - even if criminal behaviour is responsible - agree?
 * The Act places a limit on the damages which can be collected by damaged parties - Agree?
 * The Act covers investors - not the plant itself. Agree?
 * The Act would "Draw from the Treasury" that's your social security check in case you're wondering to cover a "Large" incident Agree?

There so its completely factual. and Not POV. Now let's look at the current Intro

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators. It also makes available a pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident. It indemnifies the nuclear industry for accidents by paying on a no-fault basis, and caps damages that may be rewarded as a result of a lawsuit. The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.


 * Does it inform us that taxpayers would have to pay for accidents - no that is buried in geek speak "Indemnity"
 * It states that a pool of funds is created to compensate people for damages, which is words without meaning - is it adequate funds - clearly not, because of the language to deal with larger accidents ie draw from the treasury. So its POV. It should say a pool of funds for small accidents is created while big accidents would be paid for From somewhere other than the pool - thus the pool isn't big enough.
 * Caps damage awards - again true, but how much and in what way - specifically is prohibits _punative_ awards which are a means of punishing corporations for criminal behavior, and indirectly to punish investor who seek to get rich by investing in schemes which put the public at risk. Hiding the release of criminal liability under the anti-lawyer slogan of "damage award caps" is POV.

PS the title redundancy triggers my autistic tendencies, can we please get rid of it. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 22:54 (UTC)


 * "autistic"??? I think you meant "artistic".
 * The pool is probably adequate to deal with a "severe accident" (industryspeak for a meltdown) based on TMI, where over a third of the core melted. Simesa 30 June 2005 23:16 (UTC)

At the same time, lawmakers in the United States Congress began to worry ...
This is simple BS.

for example: I'm worried we don't have insurance to protect our family.

So we
 * 1) hide a little money under the bed, and
 * 2) create family indemnity which says that the family is responsible if anyone in the family gets hurt.

There that should do it.

What did we change? nothing. We had the money, we put it under the bed. By creating an indemnity plan we shifted the burden of a catastrophy from where to where?

from - the Treasury, which in any case covers disasters - even tidal waves in Tailand - To ... drum roll please

to ...

to ...

um

The Treasury? -- Right! good! see.

Look up FEMA i think you'll see it covers emergency management - they have rebuild the same house in a flood plain umpteen times, FEMA would have to cover a nuclear accident, how is that differnt under Price. I suggest that by saying so, they get to define what the act actually does. Benjamin Gatti 30 June 2005 23:06 (UTC)


 * The information about Congress that you quoted is properly cited and is rendered in an NPOV fashion, backed up by both the GAO and CRS reports. If you would like to cite information that is critical of this position, find a source and include it. Thanks. Will answer your other points above when I am off deadline. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) June 30, 2005 23:16 (UTC)


 * The FEMA article says it deals with natural disasters, but they do deal with nuclear accidents . However, FEMA dates from only 1979.  The power reactors are to be assessed up to $88 million each in the event of an accident that exceeds the insurance, so I'd venture that PAA would pay first. Simesa 1 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)

Smaller payement to pool than market rate of insurance
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant investors. It requires nuclear plants to contribute a smaller amount of money to a common pool than insurance companies would require to insure the plant against liability arising from the release of radioactive material whether by accident or by misconduct. It provides Federal indemnification, meaning that taxpayers will be held financially responsible for any damages over and above the amount of the pool. In addition, injured parties are limited in their ability to recover damages and punative awards even for willful managerial misconduct. The act currently indemnifies all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.

In this intro - I suggest that we agree - based on the cited section of the article, that the pool payment is Smaller than insurance would be at market rates. I'm not saying that the pool is small, just that the pool payments are smaller than insurance would be. That is supported in as much as the act is deemed "crucial" is sombody suggesting that the pool payment is actual higher than market rate insurance would be - look at the supreme court decisiosn - they admitted it was stinky - just they said it was so important stinky didn't matter.

We agree that misconduct is also indemnified. not POV - absolute truth backed up in the citations.

We agree that taxpayers are the deep pockets in this program - for anything "Over and Above" the pool. Truth NPOV

We agree that it limits awards and punative measures - NPOV fact.

eliminating uncomfortable fact is POV. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 01:36 (UTC)


 * Please cite sources for your conclusions.
 * No, I don't see any reason to conclude that the amount is smaller. I'll concede that Price-Anderson is a subsidy, but saving on insurance was never the reason for the subsidy - having an insurance plan at all was.
 * As I said in my annotation, limited only if the claims exceed the pool amount plus what Congress arranges over that - possibly by further assessments on the industry.
 * Willful management misconduct is pure speculation - do you have any sources suggesting such actions in the past?
 * I still prefer Katefan0's intro. Yours isn't what I'd expect of an encyclopedia. Simesa 1 July 2005 01:59 (UTC)

"A contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same [DOE, 1997]." 

Is this bogus - or fair? I'm quoting it.

"The Price Anderson Act is anti-consumer because it asks taxpayers to assume most of the liability for nuclear accidents. " 

"The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense." 

"This 1982 study estimated that damages from a severe nuclear accident could run as high as $314 billion or more than $560 billion in 2000 dollars. Since that study, the NRC has developed "more realistic" modeling improvements to the agency s probabilistic risk assessment. A review of their 1982 study "found that property damages would be twice as much as those calculated in 1982, solely on the basis of the modeling improvements made." In addition, the Chernobyl catastrophe has cost the nations of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus $358 billion. This Chernobyl total, however, is vastly understated, since it does not attempt to estimate the costs to other nations, which also experienced health costs from the far-reaching nuclear fallout. Therefore, the $9.3 billion provided by private insurance and nuclear reactor operators represents less than two percent of the $560 billion in potential costs of a major nuclear accident. "

"A third major problem with Price Anderson is that it distorts the economic viability of the nuclear power industry since taxpayers cover the industry s insurance costs. A 1990 study calculated that without Price Anderson, nuclear power corporations would pay more than $3 billion annually in order to fully insure their operations."

So they have $100 Million of actual liability insurance which can't cost more than 100 Million, Plus they have a standing obligation of $88 Million - which they don't pay unless its needed - if at all.

Are you suggesting that their insurance premiums of 3 Billion - or about 25 million per year per plant would less than wha they pay now, which is about 100 times what you pay for you home insurance - say 300,000 a year, plus about the same in internal liability? Its not even several orders of magnitude - maybe 2%.

Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 02:33 (UTC)

Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 02:33 (UTC)

Category:Energy Subsidies
I created a Category Energy Subsidies for energy subsidies - i think if we are able to collect them together, it would be easier to summarize their relative net worth. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 01:56 (UTC)

Request For Cooling-Off Period
Due to the incessant editwarring on this article, I filed for a Cooling-Off Period. Simesa 1 July 2005 02:19 (UTC)

Which I opposed on the grounds that the request had been filed by a paid formerly paid member of the nuclear industry. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 04:30 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia demands that we assume good faith. Just because Simesa is a retired nuclear engineer does not mean that he is automatically a corporate mouthpiece; to suggest otherwise is a logical fallacy.  Please refrain from these sorts of ad hominem declarations, which could even be considered a personal attack.  Personal attacks can result in punitive actions by Wikipedia admins at the worst; at best they're annoying and create a poisonous atmosphere that makes cooperation difficult. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 04:36 (UTC)

Intro
An intro paragraph should generally serve as a summary of the most important points the article will later elaborate on. The intro, as it stands now, is way too bloated with information that has no business being in an introductory paragraph. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 03:51 (UTC)
 * Gentlemen, I apologize for the length back to which I had to revert the article, but I felt it necessary to remove Benjamin's disruptive edits. Inevitably some valid information was removed in the process that should be added back in, but I will work with everyone to make sure that is done.  Benjamin, I'm glad to see that you are getting the hang of searching for sources, but finding a source that asserts something does not mean you can simply use it to authoritatively state something that is disputed as a fact and justify it by sticking in an in-line link to a website.  If a group claims something, it should be properly identified as such.  Your intro paragraph as it stood was ridden with biased claims that have no business being asserted so authoritatively, as far as I can tell. Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble)`


 * Just for the sake of being thorough, I wanted to take a minute to go through some of the recent edits here (you monkeys are busy) and explain what specifically I had a problem with. Then I'm going to get a beer and watch crummy TV.

Under the act, a DOE contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same (DOE, 1997) [1]


 * The footnote style is incorrect, first off. Secondly, this information is already mentioned later in the article.  It is not essential to the PAA and therefore I don't feel it's needed in an intro paragraph.

The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense.


 * Plainly a statement of opinion. If you have a source that asserts this to be the case, by all means cite it.  Otherwise it has no place in the article.

The total effect is to evade responsibility if there is an accident.


 * Blatant POV. Again, cite a source if you like, but otherwise it's inexcusably biased language.

The Act has no fault liability for reactor operators, and injured victims are precluded from directly suing vendors or manufacturers responsible for the accident.


 * This information is already mentioned later in the article. It is not essential to the PAA and therefore I don't feel it's needed in an intro paragraph.

The Act poses legal hurdles to a victim seeking compensation by removing state jurisdiction and restricts plaintiffs ability to utilize any state laws which go above and beyond federal protections. Moreover, Price Anderson protects nuclear operators from punitive damages that are not covered under their private insurance coverage.


 * This is all new information, but it doesn't belong in an intro paragraph.

The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002 even in cases of gross negligence and willful misconduct, which seems to discourage contractor accountability and a safety culture.


 * The first part that is a simple statement of fact is already stated later in the article; it does not need to go in the intro paragraph. The second part is just a speculative opinion that as it is written is POV.  Feel free to cite a source that says this sort of criticism.

No other government agency provides this level of taxpayer indemnification to non-government personnel.[6]


 * Again, this is already mentioned later in the article. It has no business in the intro paragraph.

The limitation on liability provisions protect the assets of utilities and suppliers, creating a disincentive to the safe operation of nuclear reactors.


 * This assertion of opinion needs a cited source.

Present Price-Anderson provisions do not ease the burden of proof for claimants to show that latent cancer or other injuries resulted from a nuclear accident. Price-Anderson reduces the cost of nuclear power below the free market cost, which encourages its use at the expense of other forms of energy.


 * The first sentence is missing the so what? The second sentence is already treated later in the article.

Source: United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, NUREG-00957, op. cit., p. 1-2.


 * This source is not cited in encyclopedic style.

Prosit. I'll be online a bit yet. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 04:14 (UTC)

---

All of these are direct quotes of documents with the source cited in line AND in a reference section I created. In the sentences without a cite, the paragraph continues to the next sentence where the citation is listed.

As for bloat and better further down and lacks content - well ok that would be easy to fix.

but for the record - that is new information and it is fully quoted. The source is not copyrighted and exists for the dissemination of such facts and assertions Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 04:35 (UTC)


 * Can you provide a link to this source? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 04:37 (UTC)

Sources: & Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 05:00 (UTC)


 * The first source is not nonpartisan, and the second source is a study done by a county in Nevada. That's not to say that they can't be used as sources, but they must be properly attributed.  You cannot take a piece of information that is asserted on these websites and then place it into the article as a statement of fact.  If the study found something, then the proper way to include it in the article is to say 'A study by found that' or such as that. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 15:02 (UTC)

This needs a good response sao I started a section : BELOW Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 20:01 (UTC)

Reply - Begin Long Discussion about Partisan and Nonpartisan sources
I'm hardly suggesting that the sources are non-partisan. The fact of their existence however is NPOV.

I would strongly object to the conclusion that government sources, DOE, CRC, or an elected official bloviating into the record be considered on a different plane. They all have an agenda, some more transparent than others, and are equally existant.

The assertion for example that the intent or purpose of effect of the act is to provide insurance is false and misleading - the FACT that some sources have said that it does this is - in fairness fact - but only when it states, on its face, that sos and so said this and that. Blending the authors into the citation is POV - unless the information is uncontested.

I would suggest that the fact that promotors of the plan are lying about its intent is Fact and so voices which assert an untruth should be identifyied for the blowhard they so clearly are. - present company excepted of course Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 20:01 (UTC)

Non Sycophant Intro
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators. Under the act, a DOE contractor is fully indemnified for public liability, even if the liability stemmed from acts of gross negligence or willful misconduct, because the damage to the public is the same. It also makes available a pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident. The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense. The Act has no fault liability for reactor operators, and injured victims are precluded from directly suing vendors or manufacturers responsible for the accident, it poses legal hurdles to victims seeking compensation by removing state jurisdiction and restricts plaintiffs ability to utilize any state laws which go above and beyond federal protections, the total effect of which is to evade responsibility if there is an accident. It has been criticized by environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs as a handout to the nuclear power industry.

Where isn't this cited or an accurate summary of published views on the ACT? Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 05:02 (UTC)

Benjamin, your POV is clearly that the portion of the act that allows indemnification in cases of miconduct is so offensive that it needs to be in the intro. But it is not the main thing that the act does, it is a portion of what the act does, and I will continue to resist your POV efforts to include this sort of information in the intro paragraph. It deserves a place in the article, but it is not NPOV to suggest that it's so important as to be included in the article's intro. I'll be reverting those changes. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 14:59 (UTC)

The Government has a Point of View
Just because an assertion is listed in a CRC of Gov Study, doesn't mean it hasn't got a bias. We know the Gov bias here - it wants weapons - see the DOE charter sometime, if you think they're about the electricity - well just read it - it is ridiculous.

Congressional intent
Benjamin, insofar as you have questioned the GAO and CRS reports' summation of the debate in Congress prior to passage of Price-Anderson vis a vis concern for consumer protection, I took it upon myself this morning to do a bit of research, using the original Congressional Record from 1957, the 85th and 86th congress (sneeze -- dusty). Here is a direct quote from Rep. Melvin Price, one of the original sponsors, speaking on the floor of the House on July 1, 1957, about the bill that became Price-Anderson: "I want to assure you that the main purpose of this proposed legislation is to see that the public is protected in the unlikely event of a runaway reactor."'  And from Rep. Cole of New York:  ''"In 1953 and 1954 when the Joint Committee began deliberations and consideration of the possibility of revising the law so as to make it possible for private participation in the atomic program, this question of protecting the public against any unforeseen accident was in our mind. We were completely aware of it 3 or 4 years ago. It was a problem of such great magnitude, and the solution appeared so far in the distance that we at that time felt it would be undesirable to suspend changing the act in order to arrive at some solution to this question of indemnity of the public. I want to repeat again that this bill is not for the purpose of indemnifying the reactor operator; it is for the purpose of protecting the public."'' Obviously, politicians are given to rhetoric when it is convenient, but the public was definitely at least on their lips during this debate.  I don't think this information needs to be added to the article, I simply offer it to perhaps quiet some of your concerns. Thanks &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 16:23 (UTC)

I'm shocked, just shocked that there is gambling going on in this casino. There is a quote from a historian - would you judge a period by the speaches of the directory of housing - or by the buildings put up during that time? The question of protecting the public from accidents is an old and tired one. BUY INSURANCE. I'm not critical of the problem, nor of the concern - its the solution that sucks, and in no way can it honestly be described as doing anything more than shifting the burden for indemnifying the public OFF of the shoulders of the reactor operators and on to the Taxpayers at large. Look at the act - it is "credited" with enabling the reactors - why "because now the people were happy because they were protected in case they were irradiated to the point of death sickness and cross-generational mutilation, that they could expect to be compensated with filthy lucre? - not rational - it "enabled" because it subsidies the risks. It forced people to pay for consumption whether they consumed or not, and it undermines the intelligence of open markets - which is unique BTW better than any one person, better than a CRAY computer - the intelligence of large groups (Stock Markets, Free Markets) is unrivalled, and that democractic intelligence had rejected the empirical imposition of nastular energy by lone zealots - so the response - a subsidy - a short circuit of market intelligence forcing this crap down everyone's collective throat. How about a little Pro-Choice when it comes to nuclear in my neighborhood? -Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)
 * Hey, I like gambling. Well some of it anyway. While I respect your opinion, it's really just that -- an opinion -- and our personal opinions have no place in encyclopedia articles. Man, I am glad it's Friday. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 19:42 (UTC)

Recent round of edits
Benjamin, in your recent round of edits, which were just reverted by Simesa, almost nothing is salvagable. It was ridden with POV, irrelevant or redundant information.

What exactly do you feel needs to be added to the article at this point? I think that we need to do a better job of explaining the way the insurance pools work (inadequately section headed as "present day"), but otherwise I think it's a pretty fair summarization of the act's history, intent and critics. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 18:57 (UTC)


 * Agreed. The latest revert edit by Katefan0 read much better when compared to Benjamin's edits. Ryan 1 July 2005 19:48 (UTC)

The article certainly has improved a great deal. Simesa's revert was without discussion, so it doesn't merit notice. I didn't mean to overwrite your comments and was in the process of merging them.

POV in my opinion is any suggestion thatthe "Effect" - not the advertisements - but the product iteself "improves" the money availble for people injurred - over the laws which exist for other industries. Real insurance would be more expensive and provide third party analysis of risk and recourse - other than taking money from taxpayers. consumers deserve the right not to consume. This is a part of how we become a consumerists society - we force conservatives - in the dictionary sense, not the southern facist republistants sense - to PAY FOR CONSUMTION, whether they consume or not. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 19:46 (UTC)
 * That is your Point Of View, Benjamin. If you would like to find a source that espouses this particular opinion about the Price-Anderson Act, feel free to cite it properly within the context of the article.  But the article cannot -- and will not be allowed to -- become a soapbox for advocating your opinions. Also, as a native Southerner, I'd like to point out that we're not all Republicans and certainly aren't fascists.  &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 20:10 (UTC)

"for the same reasons. And please remember Wikipedia:Civility. You are also violating consensus -- there are now ..." For the record I am creating consensus. all three editors and me agree today that the pool is smaller - my argument, that the act covers misconduct - my point, that the indemnity is at least equal in importance if not the truest purpose of the act. You're complaint is that i decline to rest on my laurels but choose instead to press ahead until all the lies and POV are conquered.

As for southern facists - it is increasingly clear that religious and increasingly misnamed "conservatives" have blended into a godless theocracy in which war mongering, oil, consumption, and the subjugation of women form the planks of a poligious platform. In NC today, black prisoners - probably convicted by all-white juries - are pounding out license plates featuring the confederate flag. - for this we thank God? , i just want my word back. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 20:28 (UTC)
 * I have yet to see where you've formed a consensus for anything; you typically prefer to unilaterally attempt to bull through edits that reflect your personal POV. In fact, I'd prefer it if you tried to seek consensus. I'll ignore the rest of the rant, as it doesn't bear on making the article better.


 * all three editors and me agree today that the pool is smaller
 * This is in the article already.
 * my argument, that the act covers misconduct
 * This is in the article already.
 * that the indemnity is at least equal in importance if not the truest purpose of the act.
 * This is your OPINION, which is not proper for inclusion in the article. You're welcome to find a source that asserts this OPINION, but otherwise it has no business being in the article.  I have said this now numerous times, so I'm sure that at this point you understand what I've said and simply choose to ignore it.  We can go around and around reverting the text here if you like, but you have no legs to stand on with this one. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 20:36 (UTC)


 * No, Is the Opinion of CATO, and Public Citizen

"Price Anderson Act: The Billion Dollar Taxpayer Subsidy for Nuclear Power- October 10, 2001
 * The Price Anderson Act is anti-consumer because it asks taxpayers to assume most of the liability for nuclear accidents.
 * If the nuclear industry does not have enough faith in its own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps, then nuclear energy does not deserve the public support Price Anderson provides.

Can I hear an Ahmen?


 * Ominously, while the Price Anderson Act limits the financial responsibilities of nuclear power corporations, the Act provides insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for nuclear accident victims injuries and loss.


 * Consequently, the Act is a dual-edge sword for the public that it purportedly protects. The legislation was intended first of all to bolster investor confidence, whereas victim compensation is secondary. Price Anderson establishes only phantom insurance for the public, then provides a real bailout mechanism for the nuclear energy industry by reducing its need to pay for insurance, subsidizing the industry at the taxpayers' expense. Understanding how the Act provides a crutch for nuclear energy is important for all citizens concerned about the United States continued reliance on nuclear power and the vulnerability of nuclear power to terrorist threats.

Public Citizen Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 21:02 (UTC)


 * It's fine to cite the criticism and attribute it to the proper sources, but you can't just state it authoritatively as a matter of fact. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 21:18 (UTC)


 * And the same applies for all POVs - congress not excepted? Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 21:24 (UTC)
 * The article as it stands as it regards Congress does nothing more than assert the opinion of Congress, which is properly cited with factual information. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 21:43 (UTC)

Another round of improperly attributed edits
Benjamin, you produced:

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators because they do not have enough faith in their own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps. [1] The Act provides insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for nuclear victims injuries and loss. [2] It indemnifies the nuclear industry for accidents by paying on a no-fault basis, and caps damages that may be rewarded as a result of a lawsuit. The act currently covers all nuclear facilities constructed in the United States before 2002. Environmental groups, consumer groups and taxpayer watchdogs have criticized the act as a handout to the nuclear power industry to the detriment of United States citizens.

Problems:

1. This line:  ''The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) limits liability for nuclear plant operators because they do not have enough faith in their own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps. [1]''


 * My primary problem with this assertion is that, primarily, you use an interest group's opinion and state it as a matter of fact. You cannot justify this by simply sticking a citation at the end of a sentence; it must be properly attributed.  It would be more proper to write something like:  "Public Citizen has suggested that nuclear power plants' reliance on Price Anderson means they do not have faith in their technology."  But really, this is a misrepresentation of Public Citizen's position, which is another problem I have with this addition.  The portion you reference is really just a rhetorical question:  If the nuclear industry does not have enough faith in its own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps, then nuclear energy does not deserve the public support Price Anderson provides.  This is not quite the same thing.  Additionally, it does not belong in the introduction paragraph.

2. This line: The Act provides insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for nuclear victims injuries and loss.


 * Again, you have taken an interest group's opinion and state it as a matter of fact. This is blatantly incorrect.  It would be more correct to have said something like: "Public Citizen has criticized the act as having insufficient insurance coverage to compensate for victims' injuries and loss."  The obvious wording problems aside, this is a fine criticism to include. I will take the properly described criticism and include it in the criticisms section.  With that being said, I would caution you that we cannot include every criticism a group or groups make.  An encyclopedia article should be a thumbnail of an issue -- it should hit the highlights, but it is not supposed to be a repository for every piece of fact or fancy about something.  Additionally, it does not belong in the introductory paragraph.


 * I have now patiently explained to you the proper way to characterize the opinion of an outside group. You cannot state an opinion as a matter of fact and then simply stick an in-line link next to the sentence and leave it at that.  It must be identified plainly within the text of the article for what it is, the opinion of a group; otherwise we do our readers a great disservice.  I hope you will adhere to this from here on out.  Thanks.

&middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 1, 2005 21:42 (UTC)

Katefan, you too should not list the statements of interest groups - ie the government and certain senators as fact. You too can say - the Government expressed concern, or the government said it was interested in this and that. I'm stunned that a Washington reporter, who spends all day ferreting out the real reason things happen - as opposed to the PR reason - forgets that principle when she logs into Wikipedia.

As for "because they do not have enough faith in their own technology to take full responsibility for their own mishaps." that is fact, and i don't think it is contested - what is contested is including uncomfortable facts.

Here is additional source for that assertion as a fact.

" Consider the following statements from the 1956 and 1957 hearings on the then-proposed Price-Anderson amendment. A vice president of Westinghouse, Charles Weaver, stated: "Obviously we cannot risk the financial stability of our company for a relatively small project no matter how important it is to the country's reactor development effort, if it could result in a major liability in relation to our assets."[8]

In further testimony Weaver indicated that even Westinghouse's suppliers were unwilling to go ahead with the contract unless Westinghouse agreed to indemnify them against risks.[9] General Electric also indicated during the hearings that it was prepared to halt its work in the nuclear industry should a limitation on liability not be passed.[10] Suppliers of reactor shields also indicated their unwillingness "to undertake contracts in this field without being relieved of uninsurable liability in some way."[11]

It was under this pressure that the Price-Anderson Act was enacted."

Cato a referance which has been deleted by TeamPOV numerous times. Benjamin Gatti 1 July 2005 21:57 (UTC)


 * If you think that a Cato report contains critical information that is not currently aired within the text of the article, by all means present it here on the talk page and we can consider citing it in the article. But dumping loads of quotes into the page appropos of nothing is worse than useless. I can dump quotes into the page all day (I have access to the Congressional Record back to WWI -- that's a lot of bloviating), but that doesn't mean I (or you) should. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 05:02 (UTC)


 * In the context of the contested issue, which is the WHY of the Act in the first place, these quotes tend to illustrate that the government was placed in a position BY THE INDUSTRY demanding indemnity - Perhaps you have evidence that the people were demanding an insurance pool - but i don't see any evidence of public outcry for the creation of a fund - thus the statements that the purpose is "only to help you" i think is obfuscation. - Personally, i think at the time, it probably was a compelling case - we couldn't afford to lose a nuclear energy race with the soviet union, which at that point had - i think already demonstrated a civilian power nuclear plant. - so we told some white lies, and subsidized the race in favor of nuclear power. I think if we're honest about the real reasons, - and then reflect on how the times have changed - we can decide whether encouraging nuclear energy - even at great additional expense is still justified.

Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:14 (UTC)
 * In regards to this statement: thus the statements that the purpose is "only to help you" i think is obfuscation -- I'm not sure how many other ways I can say this, but your opinion, as much as I respect it, is irrelevant to this article. As is mine. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 06:20 (UTC)

Official Arguments for the Act
During the 1975 renewal hearings, Rep. John Young (D-Tex.) said "The fact is that we have run out of oil and gas. What oil and gas is left is desperately needed in a thousand other ways (other than boilers). The quicker that we can get into this other business of supplementary energy sources, the quicker this nation will be on its way to stability of its economy..." 

In the 1956 and 1957 hearings on the amendment. Westinghouse Vice President Charles Weaver, stated: "Obviously we cannot risk the financial stability of our company for a relatively small project no matter how important it is to the country's reactor development effort, if it could result in a major liability in relation to our assets." 

In further testimony Weaver indicated that even Westinghouse's suppliers were unwilling to go ahead with the contract unless Westinghouse agreed to indemnify them against risks. General Electric also indicated during the hearings that it was prepared to halt its work in the nuclear industry should a limitation on liability not be passed. Suppliers of reactor shields also indicated their unwillingness "to undertake contracts in this field without being relieved of uninsurable liability in some way." 

comment
This section was removed - While it doesn't need to be in the article - I think these quotes underscore that the purpose, intent, and focus of the article was to address the literal strike conditions which were threatens by nuclear contractors - I suggest, though I am loathe to admit it, that the overhanging concern and intent was to secure the ability of the US to compete on a global level in the nuclear energy "race" for which the staring gun was quite literally Hiroshima.

I think the evidence that its purpose was to _increase_ the amount of funds available for victims is uncompelling and is as silly as Duck and Cover and the other flights of idiocy served up to a trusting and shamefully uninformed public during that time. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:06 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, and while I respect your zeal, Wikipedia prohibits Original research. We only summarize already-published sources.  If you can find a traditional source that supports your claims, I'd be more than happy to support including some sort of summarization of it therein.  Thanks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 05:11 (UTC)

Yes Kate - I understand no original research - at the risk of stepping on copyright violations, almost everything i have contriuted since you began criticising me for expressing my opinion has been cut and paste from cited sources. - with markedly little difference in most cases. Again, my objection will be that the government position is being stated with authority and a cite, while criticism is being held to a higher standard - it is being labelled derisively as criticism, and you are requiring a disjointed "he says = she says" syntax. - which again is fine--if the government is held to the same standard. I am asking for NPOV. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:21 (UTC)


 * The government (i.e. Congress) created this act. Therefore, I think their opinions during the creation of the act are inherently relevant. Beyond which, government documents are in all cases considered encyclopedic sources, particularly when talking about an act of that government. Just because you feel the government is bad doesn't invalidate it as a source. Maybe you would find it more rewarding to contribute to conspiracy theories. Thanks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 05:51 (UTC)

Request for Evidence - intent to create pool
I observe, based on the cites, that the only evidence of any "intent to provide a pool" is mere propoganda - in the gentlest sense - from government officials. I have shown real demand for indemnity - does anyone have substatial evidence that 1. the government was under pressure to protect the public over and existing liability laws - and 2. that the act _increases_ in any way or degree the assets available to reimburse victims for nuclear related damages?

Anyone object (substantivly) to removing the authoritarian statements that the act was intended to reimburse victims? Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 05:48 (UTC)
 * That lawmakers said the act was partially intended to reimburse victims is factual and properly cited, as you well know. If you are confused, read the GAO report, where it is clearly delineated.  And let's not forget the quotes from the Congressional Record I cited above.  You doubting their motives is not enough to remove the information. Thanks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 05:53 (UTC)


 * Ben, don't include me in any supposed consensus for your pov. Simesa 2 July 2005 07:38 (UTC)

NPOV
OK, I'm new to this mess. The point I want to make is...for Wikipedia's purposes, it doesn't matter what any of its members personally think about the subjects here. It doesn't matter. At all. We are not here for discussion. We are not here for argument. We are here to present articles as objectively as possible. Here's an example. Ben. I agree. This law basically subsidizes the nuclear industry. But you know what? It doesn't matter one iota. Wikipedia is not a blog. It is not a place where we put forth our own opinions. What I always say is...think of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Do you see any arguments or wide ranging discussions in the Brittanica? Not the last time I checked you didn't. We're here to be an objective authority, whether you like it or not. We present both sides to every argument objectively and without "tipping our hand" to show how we really feel about an issue.

This is why any criticisms that are placed in an article need to be a counterweight to any arguments for whatever the article is talking about. And those criticisms can NOT be inciteful. They can't sound like they are expounding a particular point of view. They have to sound like an objective presentation of the facts...nothing more, nothing less. The same rule applies to arguments for whatever the article is talking about.

So what do I see here? Well, I see an article that is way too tilted towards criticism. I don't see many citations for arguments for this law. It might be painful to look for quotes from the nuclear industry, but it's necessary to show an objective view. I also don't see a link to the actual law. Again, you have to present people with the other side and pointing to the actual verbage of the law does that.

Anyway, I'll close here or else I'll lose people. Just wanted to say that the point of Wikipedia is to be balanced. That's our goal. We have to sacrifice our personal views for the betterment of everyone reading this article or any article. It's hard sometimes, but frankly, if you can't do that, then you don't belong here. --Woohookitty 2 July 2005 08:49 (UTC)

Welcome - thanks it needs help - and its a very important subject - although largly unknown. For the record, the initial stub, provided by an industry payee looked like this:

"The Price-Anderson Act, enacted in 1957 as Section 170 of the Atomic Energy Act, makes available a large pool of funds (as of 2004, approximately 9.5 billion dollars) to provide prompt compensation to members of the public who incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident, no matter who might be liable."

Note that it says the pool of funds is LARGE, and doesn't even mention the fact that it provides complete criminal immunity to a very dangerous industry.

Now that is a POV - of the industry and one of their paid former employees.

Note that the citations have increased - in spite of being regulaly DELETED by the editor on the nuclear wealthfare dole.

Points of view are being discussed openly in discussion, so that people are honest which their own POV. Currently the Pro-Government Pro-Industry Pro-Nuking babies until theyy have three ears POint of View is being presented without qualification - while the truth is being herded into a corner under a label. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 19:37 (UTC)


 * I still don't think you quite understand NPOV. #1 drop the us v. them mentality. You seem to think that the goal of all of the editors is to push the view of the nuclear industry. Actually, it's to make the article NPOV. That's the goal. If they come up with something that seems pro-industry, they are not doing it to spite you or to make the article pro-industry. They are doing it to balance out the criticisms later on in the article. Like with Katefan0. As far as I know, Kate is not pro industry. But, Kate wants the article to be balanced in terms of view.


 * And by the way, what exactly are you referring to when you say that the pro-industry view is being shown without qualification? Over half of this article is criticism of the law. To me, it's obvious that you want this article slanted so it sounds like it is against the law. Is that your goal? Or is your goal to have this article balanced? And no, I am not a paid member of the pro-nuclear community. --Woohookitty 2 July 2005 20:12 (UTC)
 * I definitely have concerns about nuclear power, but I'm not really pro or con. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 22:31 (UTC)

I think the article should represent the truth which from where i set looks like this: after the war and bombing of hiroshima, the worl entered a nuclear race - a cold war with russia, in which developing nuclear technology was paramount. like any chess game, it was a question of getting every piece to work toward the goal of conquest. this meant adopting private industry giants GE and Westinghouse into the race against the sovient union. indemnifying them was necessary, so they passed price anderson - then it went to court and the supremes admitted that is was unfair, but we were at war, and the need to compete in the arms race - which was almost all nuclear warheads - overwrote basic constitutional principles - ie ... Marshal law was imposed, the constituution suspended, equality shelved, and nuclear contracters became in essence defense contractors, the DOE focus shifted to nuclear weapons AND energy. Perhaps it was justifiied at the time, perhaps it was reasonable, but to continue it now just seems ridiculous and incongruous. The purpose was military competition papered over as "concern for public safety" - which again is reasonable during a war - but not now. The markets can est decide what energy source is most cost effective and safe if we let the millions of invvestors contribute their knowledge into large decisions such as funding an energy plant - kind of like wikepedia - and the government should interupt the superior cooperative intelligence of a free market. Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 01:33 (UTC)

PS. specifically, the assertion that a nuclear accident in the US would be have less impact than chernobly is an important assertion made in a POV manner and represents the opinion of one industry voice. Benjamin Gatti

Dubious
The Assertions being made in the authoritative voice are disputed with citations.

The solution is to qualify these assertions as the opinions of their respective owners or verify them with facts - not opinions of prominent mouthpieces.

Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 20:18 (UTC)
 * 1) Pool for compensating victims. - The act DECREASES the private funds available for dealing with accidents - that cannot be summarized honestly as creating a slush fund for victoms. It replaces a liability system which exist for everything else with a fiver under the mattress and a government IOU.
 * 2) There is no pool. There simply is no bank account with 9 Billion dollars in it sitting around ready to compensate victims. If a chernobyl like event occured, and it was the fault of some enron-class crook, stealing money instead of spending it on maintenance, the other nuclear operators could go to court and claim that they weren't liable for the damage. Or their insurance carrior could balk, saying they don't insure crimes - and in the end Uncle Sam plays the bill anyway.
 * 3) "Financial backers were unwilling to risk the enormous financial liability." Unwilling is a negatiive assertion which cannot be veryfied - show me where someone has asked every available financier existent at that time that they would not, for the right price, insure a nuclear project. Might have been expensive, but you don't get to lie simply because you don't like the price.
 * 4) so no-one was interested in building a plant." Again no-one is unverifyable. There were 5 billion people on the planet, that a lot of people to ask to veryfy the assertion that no-one was willing, aside from which nuclear plants were built in other countries - so clearly the number of the willing was some number greater than zero.
 * 5) "However, were similar circumstances to be repeated in America, the scale of the disaster likely would be less" That is the Personal opinion of a single wikepedian who gets or got a check from the nuclear industry. Research on the other hand has shown that population density near chernobyl is far far less than population densities near most nuclear plants in the US, and that as a result, the consequences could be much more severe.


 * I added 2 dubious tags to the criticisms. Why? Because Ben cites a couple of articles from Public Citizen about how the last was only supposed to last 10 years and that the nuclear industry is somewhat protected from negligence charges to do misconduct. Fine. But. If you go to those sources, they have NO citations themselves. So essentially, it makes it look like they got these assertations out of thin air. And Ben, you can't come back with...well...they aren't pretending to be the "authoritative voice". No they aren't, but they are using facts in their arguments and without citations, it looks like they could've just made this stuff up. Find better sources that actually use citations. --Woohookitty 2 July 2005 21:15 (UTC)

I think the standard for dubious is that you have reason to believe the information is false. When the article is reporting the opinions of peoplr - ie senators worrying, or ralph nader public Citizen, or Cato opining as their opinions, it is difficult to measure the importance of how they got their opinion, and immaterial. And actually I think that material first came from Katefan - the 10 year horizon - I personally don't find INTENT to be worth writing about. The act diverts investors time and money into dangerous forms of energy - thats a fact. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:07 (UTC)

This is my fourth try at posting this. Sorry for the delay.

Again, I am neither retired nor paid by either the nuclear of energy industries - I have no contact with either, receive nothing from either. I advised Ben of this. Apparently his pov is that it isn't true.

Ben, without citations, called nuclear the most dangerous industry in the world. (I suggest that airlines might be more dangerous - see List of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners grouped by year.) POV.

Ben then said, without citations, "commits a criminal malfeasance which kills and maims the public, or mutilates the genetic code of unborn fetuses so that they are born with life-long deformities and illnesses." Again, without citations, it's POV.

One thing we haven't placed in PAA is that in the event of criminal malfeasance causing a "severe accident" (usually a meltdown), the insurance would refuse to pay for the plant and the investors would be out an (approximately) $1.8 billion replacement cost plus cleanup costs - the nuclear industry has a high incentive to have a superb safety culture. Also, the NRC has two resident inspectors at each plant - coverups would be difficult. Finally, the operators are unionized, and have no incentive to lose their high-paying jobs (Reactor Operator is the highest union job in a nuclear plant) by ruining the plant. Against that, Ben has provided no citations of severe accidents in non-Soviet Union plants (Chernobyl was caused by what I regard as criminal actions) to support his beliefs that malfeasance would be to blame. Simesa 2 July 2005 20:21 (UTC)
 * That's interesting an not at the same time. Is it any different for airplanes, hospitals, ships - if so how does tha act make it any different - curious since you mention it. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:07 (UTC)


 * Actually the list by fatalities would be Cigarettes ~400K dpy, Guns ~50Kdpy, Cars ~45Kdpy, etc. (dpy = Deaths per Year- USA), Airplanes really don't compete. Nuclear Weapons are the most dangerous weapons however, and the DOE includes both and contracts with both power plants and weapons contractors - so suggesting that people who make nuclear weapons is the most dangerous industry is a supportable assertion - yes - it opens a long discussion of alternatives.


 * I am willing to include "was" paid by the industy due to your "former status" and I remind you that your social security and retirement account are likely funded by the industry which checks you still expect to receive, aside from which your POV seems to me very pro-nuclear - which i don't understand given your whistleblower status - so its a quandry, and the character Simesa, whether real or not - continues to "have been paid" by the industry. Benjamin Gatti
 * Please stop making personal attacks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 22:33 (UTC)

Yeah - Three Mile Island was a severe accident - not catastophic, but it did breach the containment which you so heavily preach. And the government did a good job lying about it for hours if not days, slowing the ability of the population to respond. Recently whisltblowers have been beat up and just last month one DOE contractor was fined for criminal behavior. Just curious why you think people in the US are so superior to people in the Soviet Union that mistakes - even crimes as you say - could not happen here. Look at energy leaders - Enron etc, are they above cutting corners to pocket a few extra dimes? I doubt it. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 21:03 (UTC)


 * There was _NO_ containment building at Chernobyl. It _WAS_ Catastrophic - the graphite core ensured that!  The _SOVIET_ government tried to cover it up, as they did so many things.  I listed how the people in American plants are different - reliance on insurance, independent inspectors, lack of incentive for malfeasance.  You know all these things and continue to ignore them. Simesa 2 July 2005 21:28 (UTC)


 * OK you've said there was no containment everywhere there's space - notice that i didn't put a dubious tag near that statement. I get that our plants are different - somewhat and in some ways. But we still have to move fissil material around, we have to process it, we have problems with terrorism and flying airplanes into things. but here again if you are so **&^damn sure that it is safe, why don't you invest in a company called Global Full Coverage Nuclear Insurance Inc. and then you could make all that money insuring something which no one else KNOWS is safe enough to insure. You should step up and indemnify the industry - you can probably do it for less than they are paying now - why they're probably getting ripped off by the government = what with having to post a bond of 88 Million. But i see you've still got your hand on your wallet - you want ME to insure the damn things - well I object to having my pocket picked. pick your own pocket - if nuclear is what you want.

Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:07 (UTC)


 * Let's cool down the rhetoric, ok? It's not useful to building an encyclopedia article.  Take it to Usenet. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 22:30 (UTC)

"I listed how the people in American plants are different"
Can I just say that if we are banking on the people being a different kind of person in America - by which you mean to include or exclude Chile, Brazil, Mexico, Columbia, Panama, and Canada? -then we are very much in trouble, not only are people remarkably the same around the world, but many of the people in America came that part of the world - especially our nuclear engineers. Benjamin Gatti

History
Benjamin, I will -- once more -- in excruciating detail -- delineate why the background section is properly sourced. I will not do this again. When I'm done, I will ask the other editors contributing to this article to view my justifications and tell me whether they think the text is fair or not, so a consensus can be achieved one way or another and we can put this particular section to bed. I have been very patient so far, but I refuse to waste another minute of my time repeating myself and having you ignore me.

The paragraph:

Financial backers were unwilling to risk the enormous financial liability that would result from a catastrophic accident at a nuclear plant, so no-one was interested in building a plant.

From the GAO report referenced at the bottom of the article:


 * Soon [after the Atomic Energy Act], government and industry experts identified a major impediment to accomplishing the act’s objective: the potential for payment of damages resulting from a nuclear accident and the lack of adequate available insurance. Unwilling to risk huge financial liability, private companies viewed even the remote specter of a serious accident as a roadblock to their participating in the development and use of nuclear power.

The paragraph:

Price-Anderson was born from those dual concerns; the act established a mechanism for compensating the public for injury or property damage in the event of a nuclear accident (disputed — see talk page)

From the GAO report referenced at the bottom of the article:


 * In addition, congressional concern developed over ensuring adequate financial protection to the public because the public had no assurance that it would receive compensation for personal injury or property damages from the liable party in event of a serious accident. Faced with these concerns, the Congress enacted the Price-Anderson Act in September 1957. The Price-Anderson Act has two underlying objectives: (1) to establish a mechanism for compensating the public for personal injury or property damage in the event of a nuclear accident and (2) to encourage the development of nuclear power.

It's my opinion that the nonpartisan GAO report is a valid and authoritative source that has been faithfully summarized in the current article. I would appreciate the opinions of others beyond Benjamin and myself so we can reach a consensus. Thanks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 2, 2005 22:30 (UTC)

Respectfully, and i know you have been patient, to which i object,

These include negative assertions - as such they cannot be independently verified. You have demanded that and more from me when the source is Public Citizen - I continue to demand the same from you whether the source is the GAO, the President, or even Tom Cruise. I have no objection to quoting the GAO - but the assertions of the GAO as you have represented them are contested, and because they cannot be verified - must not be stated in the authoritarian voice.

There is no such thing as an authoritative voice on a negative assertion.

Let's say Carl Sagon believes there is nothing in a Black Hole. He's pretty damn authoritative, but he can't prove it - and what is better - he knows he can't prove it.

So he contents himself with "I believe there is nothing in a Black Hole." and he leaves it to someone else to go ye and VERIFY.

How can I verify that no one was willing to insure a nuclear reactor - then? - then? or now?

I Suggest "The nonpartisan GAO office sez:" see NPOV

Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:50 (UTC)

I would suggest this paragraph instead - Because this way we don't become compliance voices for the governments disinformation - right or wrong. It makes the act the subject, had no unverifyable assertions and describes the government rather than speaking for it. Benjamin Gatti

Price Anderson is an ammendment to the Atomic Energy Act(1954) which enabled private industry to participate in building nuclear reactors. At the time government was under pressure to provide indemnity to Westinghouse and GE because both had indicated they would not build nuclear reactors without being relieved of financial liability in the event of a catstrophic nuclear event. In addition, the question of who would reimburse the public if a nuclear accident should occur had been raised, and so the government cobbled together as much insurance as it could find at the time, which was about $100 million, and then created a pool system in which each independant reactor would contribute their insurance money if an accident occured in any nuclear site for any reason with the government contributing an additional $500 million if necessary. While the act provides very good protection for the Nuclear industry, it actually provides less protection today for individuals injured by accidents than would be required under standard insurance law. Most analysts and researchers, including the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, concur that Price-Anderson enabled the United States' current nuclear power plants to be built.

Apology
I accused Ben of moving my comments under a different heading. I was wrong - Woohookitty actually made the change. I looked at the History and got it wrong. Ben deserves my apology on this. Simesa 2 July 2005 22:20 (UTC)

Quite alright - I'm sure I deserve the frustration. I've not exactly gone out of my way to be generous. and while i really oppose spending tax subsidies on dangerous energy when we're not spending enough for clean one's burns me up - i like ya just fine (RLS - Kidnapped) Benjamin Gatti

Consensus to Remove (Dubious) inre ten year intended horizon
In 1957, according to Public Citizen, the United States Senate stated that Price Anderson should only be needed for ten years because "the problem of reactor safety will be to a great extent solved and the insurance people will have had an experience on which to base a sound program of their own." [6][7]US Gov (disputed — see talk page)

This section should no longer be duious in that it has 3 cites, and more are plentiful on google, it appears this is quite factual. Benjamin Gatti 2 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)

Last item - dubious - bigger or smaller
The Act makes available a smaller pool of insurance funds to compensate people who are injured or incur damages from a nuclear or radiological incident than is required under law for all other corporations (disputed — see talk page).

Its the inherent nature of an indemnity act - is substitutes a private fund with the government treasury, and since under option a. you have loads of insurance plus FEMA and under b.) you have not so much insurance plus FEMA, b.) is smaller than a.)

you have to read the provisions - see references - the court battle, the motivation. This act says you don't have to buy health insurance its covered if you're working for us - so you don't create a pool of health insurance. Katefan agreed based on her research that it is smaller, simesa consurred with her edits, as well as one more - if i remember history - smaller was reached by consensus - but if anyone wants to dispute it - "let's get the party started" (GWB in his formative years). Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 02:38 (UTC)
 * Please point to where I agreed with such a thing. Impossible, since it never happened.  I've not done any research on this point to know either way. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) July 3, 2005 03:14 (UTC)

I believe this is the edit - you put up inuse, and when you came back it was full of cites and critics - greenpeace etc who had expressed essential my criticism that its a big wealthfare program. In there is the assertion that the pool would be depleted by a chernobyl class event. As for the word smaller - we settled on that a while back - can history be searched? Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 03:39 (UTC)

Why I reverted all of Ben's additions tonight
I reverted them all because everything Ben added was POV. Every single item. I think at this point we need to request protection for a day and let people cool off. And then after that, I have a feeling we're heading to arbitration, because what Ben considers "NPOV" is completely different than what anyone else here sees as NPOV and I don't know to reconcile that. Also, please stop adding the meta comments in the article. It makes editing more difficult than it needs to be. Thank you. --Woohookitty 3 July 2005 02:55 (UTC)


 * Again Ben, please...stop putting the meta comments in there. --Woohookitty 3 July 2005 03:25 (UTC)Discussion belongs here, not in the article, even if the comments don't show up in the article.


 * Will reduce use of meta comments - although at least two editors here have found them useful - they should stay long - but it seems gentler than outright deletions - think of it as a suggested deletion. In spite of the vitriol, i too would like to see the tension racheted down. Benjamin Gatti 3 July 2005 03:32 (UTC)