Talk:Price–Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Talk6

Private Participation
Within a decade, however, Congress concluded that the national interest would be best served if the Government encouraged the private sector to become involved in the development of atomic energy for peaceful purposes under a program of federal regulation and licensing. See H. R. Rep. No. 2181, 83d Cong., 2d Sess., 1-11 (1954). The Atomic Energy Act of 1954, Act of Aug. 30, 1954, ch. 1073, 68 Stat. 919, as amended, 42 U.S.C. 2011-2281 (1970 ed. and Supp. V), implemented this policy decision, providing for licensing of private construction, ownership, and operation of commercial nuclear power reactors for energy production under strict supervision by the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). 1 See Power Reactor Development Co. v. Electrical Workers, 367 U.S. 396  (1961), rev'g and remanding 108 U.S. App. D.C. 97, 280 F.2d 645 (1960). SCOTUS

Private industry responded to the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 with the development of an experimental power plant constructed under the auspices of a consortium of interested companies. It soon became apparent that profits from the private exploitation of atomic energy were uncertain and the accompanying risks substantial. See Green, Nuclear Power: [438 U.S. 59, 64]   Risk, Liability, and Indemnity, 71 Mich. L. Rev. 479-481 (1973) (Green). SCOTUS

Benjamin Gatti?

(This is a reply to Simesa - I see an awful lot here focussed exclusively on Private Industry) Benjamin Gatti


 * A lot of verbiage, desperately trying to regain the point, but it doesn't change that key first sentence. DOE incidents are covered. Simesa 09:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * And the nonsequitar award goes to ... The first sentence says nothing about DOE incidentse. Yes, given, DOE facilities are included. But there is no verbiage from the Supreme court to suggest that "insuring" the DOE was the prime purpose, the effect, or the problem presented to Congress as a precedent to the passage of the Act, and they have cited many contemporary reports in support of that position. I believe it's clear from the record that Price was invisioned and intended to provide a bridge of insurance to cover the experiential period after which insurance companies ought to have collected enough information and experience to calculate the risks of nuclear energy in the private sector. The fact is that period has passed, and includes Chernobly and private insurers are no closer to fully insuring nuclear energy than they were in 1954. Benjamin Gatti


 * "The Price-Anderson Act (Act), having the dual purpose of protecting the public and encouraging the development of the nuclear energy industry," clearly has a prime purpose of covering DOE-related incidents.
 * The unrelated point is also wrong - with only one applicable accident (TMI) in the world to examine, and that with negligible impact, the experiential period goes on.
 * Simesa 09:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we get a little structure please?
I really must object. This article is being modified all over the place without any kind of prior consensus or even raw discussion. I'm starting to get very frustrated with the way this is going, or not going. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 04:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Really Kate, I would suggest this is one of the more static pages on the wikipedia. I suggest it is not changing enough to keep the editors interested. I suggest we lift the no-edit ban entirely and let the wiki process run its course. One problem is that there is very slow participation on the consensus side. Simesa and I are trading substance, others, well, not so much. May I say as an aside - what a great time to be a Washington reporter. If I were you, and I say this with great appreciation and respect for your participation here, I think I would let this slip a bit and focus on the new and compelling issues boiling over in DC. What a ride! Benjamin Gatti
 * Those are some novel comments, but they don't change my request above. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 04:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Then I wish you well of your quest. Seriously - you must be reporting on what's happening in Washington, is it to much to ask where you publish? Benjamin Gatti
 * Yes. Ral? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 05:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ral, this is just another attempt by Ben to declare mediation over. He tried that about a month ago. Look at alot of archive 5 for what I am talking about. We need some sort of conclusion here and him just backing out of this isn't it. --Woohookitty 06:30, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Deal. Mediation shall continue so long as the mediator and every party to mediation participates at least once every second day. Once mediation lapses, it must be renegotiated. The perpetual censorship of drag-one's-feet mediation is unacceptable. Anyone who objects to these conditions can take it up with arbcom or use their majik powers to block me, but I will not voluntarily be silent unless we are making an attempt at progress. Benjamin Gatti
 * This ultimatum is obviously not okay. We're in mediation specifically because we need a mediator in order to help us make progress.  As long as we don't have someone taking an active hand, we're going to go nowhere fast. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 03:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Mediation is voluntary. I most certainly can assert the conditions under which I voluntarily agree to participate. My conditions are reasonable. It's been forever. It's time, i suggest to move on - however, i'll agree to a few more days of serious effort, if there is a coalition of interested parties, otherwise, I intend to use the Supreme court's conclusions to assert that nuclear energy is dangerous and this is why, in 2005, Bush signed the no-fault taxpayer insurance for Republican investors. Benjamin Gatti
 * Benjamin, you're happy to do what you want. But I'd like to continue mediation.  I am active, for what it's worth; now that I have a handle on this issue, I'm going to be a lot more active in the matter.  Ral315 (talk) 07:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ral. How do we proceed from here? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 15:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * If Ben backs out, I'm putting this up for arby. I know they generally don't take content disputes, but I don't think we can let Ben get all he wants by just not being in the process. --Woohookitty 07:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Certainly, I have not backed out. I am merely stating that I intend to interpret lack of participation as conclusory. If Mike wants to go to Arb, I intend to show good faith by participating in mediation, but I do not believe that mediation should amount to self-cencorship for 12 months. Benjamin Gatti


 * Self-censorship? Anyway. Yes Ral, how do you want us to go from here? --Woohookitty 16:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

My revert tonight
I reverted back to the consensus version of October 15th. Let's come up with a consensus and THEN change the article. Not sure why this is proving hard for people. --Woohookitty 06:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I applaud each of Uncle Ed's attempts, but agree with Woohookitty that we will have to do this the long way. And I agree with Katefan0 that ending Mediation precipitously would simply result in edit-warring.
 * I don't see either side budging on the Intro. I suggest we move on to "How the law works", which both sides agree is incomprehensible. Simesa 09:52, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * basks in the applause Uncle Ed 02:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Can we get a little substance please?- Is Nuclear Dangerous or not?
The Supreme court has indicated that the risk of a nuclear accident is the driving cause of Price Anderson. Our readers deserve to have this information. Simesa has argued that nuclear is not dangerous and that there is no risk, however, this argument has been to the Supreme Court and failed. There is a rule at law which says a party cannot argue both sides of the same issue when it suits their fancy. In that sense, the Nuclear Industry has lost the right to argue that nuclear is safe, when they went to the Supreme Court and argued that it is so dangerous that they deserve to have a special Constitution just for them. Accordingly, it is inappropriate for us to publish that which is inconsistent with facts which the industry has used to argue in favor of its narcotic subsidies.

Now then who can provide a non-trivial objection to the assertion that (according to the Industry in their case to the Supreme Court) nuclear IS dangerous, in spite of efforts to make it safe, and that Price Anderson is a continuing tribute to the inherent risks thereof? Benjamin Gatti


 * When did Simesa say that there was no risk in nuclear power? I don't remember that. I do remember you insisting for the longest time that he was a paid mouthpiece for the nuclear industry because he worked for the nuclear industry over a decade ago and then become a whistleblower. But I don't you remember him saying there was no risk in nuclear power. Besides, I think the possible danger of nuclear power belongs in the nuclear power article. Besides, if you read this article in full, you can gather that nuclear power is dangerous. I'm not sure we have to yell it from the mountaintop here. This section basically hints its dangerous.


 * "Although the AEC offered incentives to encourage investment, there remained in the path of the private nuclear power industry various problems - the risk of potentially vast liability in the event of a nuclear accident of a sizable magnitude being the major obstacle.Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage."


 * In addition, the tone of the article is that this is essentially a handout to the nuclear industry so their asses are covered in case the inevitable accident will occur.


 * And then we have the issue that Simesa, kate and I have been solid on for awhile. This article's tone is anti-nuclear. We have a criticisms section that takes up more of the article than any other section. We do not have a section with reasons for the act. We have essentially a paragraph and then it's mixed in the first few paragraphs of the article. In other words, we have an article heavy on criticism already. If we make it any more critical, it's going to be basically an essay on how evil Price-Anderson is. --Woohookitty 13:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

We're not here to critique the SC decision. From what I read of it, they don't call the industry dangerous. So it shouldn't be here. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 02:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a promising avenue to go down. It looks like Price-Anderson came about because of the perception that nuclear power is dangerous.


 * As a student of physics (one year high school, one year college) I think there is something to this perception. A chunk of uranium the size of a grapefruit can destroy an entire metropolis: think New York City, not just Manhattan. And Chernobyl proved what can happen if you don't take elementary precautions (since when did the Soviets really care about not killing innocent people?!).


 * A lot of activists have claimed the US nuclear power can not be made safe, and that therefore it should be abolished. I believe this claim was connected ideologically with the "no nukes" movement which sought unilateral disarmament by the US during the Cold War, in the hopes that the USSR would gain a decisive advantage. I met organizers of the Clamshell Alliance in Boston and talked to various related others - this is not just me talking out of my hat here.


 * Then there are the opponents of US energy use in general, such as the environmental movement (which in turn connects to the Kyoto Protocol and global warming).


 * The whole thing is a tangled mess. It's no wonder that we haven't been able to resolve anything. There is too much under the surface (see elephant in the living room). Uncle Ed 17:11, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I certainly agree with that, and would go a step farther to say that some of the problem is that there is too much "truth-seeking" going on and not enough attention paid to just summarizing disputes. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 19:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hard to argue with that point. Let's not forget that we entered mediation because some wanted to summarize the views of theose who believe nuclear is dangerous - including the SCOTUS, while using the authoritarian voice to represent the other side - including the assertions of the GOA regarding the motivations of Congress. So if there is going to be an argument for focus, I would suggest focussing on that question.


 * To Ed. Sure, its a tangled mess. I think more accurately, this, like Hubris peak and Evolution for that, is a subject which is scientific in its fundamentals, and yet so speculative as to preclude a scientific conclusion in our time. Kate has a point which is that we should summarize arguments. Really it's a point I have been making since forever. Assertions should be verifiable summarizations of identifyable sources. iE, "The SCOTUS held (here) that nuclear is more dangerous than all the insurance companies in the world combined could afford to insure." Benjamin Gatti


 * Wow. progress. I might have to give everyone a cookie for that. ;-) --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 03:25, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

What I get from the SCOTUS decision is "The potential consequences of a worst-case nuclear accident are unknown, so that private insurance companies are unable to cover all of them." The word "danger" (as "dangerous") is used only once, in repeating a claim - SCOTUS never used it. The exact SCOTUS decision is: "We disagree. We view the congressional assurance of a $560 million fund for recovery, accompanied by an express statutory commitment, to 'take whatever action is deemed necessary [438 U.S. 59, 91] and appropriate to protect the public from the consequences of' a nuclear accident, 42 U.S.C. 2210 (e) (1970 ed., Supp. V), to be a fair and reasonable substitute for the uncertain recovery of damages of this magnitude from a utility or component manufacturer, whose resources might well be exhausted at an early stage.'"

The closest SCOTUS comes to Ben's wording is: "Notwithstanding comprehensive testing and study, the uniqueness of this form of energy production made it impossible totally to rule out the risk of a major nuclear accident resulting in extensive damage. Private industry and the AEC were confident that such a disaster would not occur, but the very uniqueness of nuclear power meant that the possibility remained, and the potential liability dwarfed the ability of the industry and private insurance companies to absorb the risk."

My wording is significantly different from Ben's, but more accurate and closer to the SCOTUS decision.

Simesa 09:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)


 * So Ben, how does that equal "The Supreme Court said that nuclear power is dangerous"? --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 12:51, 26 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It seems that both sides can find comfort and support in the SCOTUS opinion. What the SCOTUS are saying in their own special "greenspeak" is that the risk is enormous, the danger exists, the damage potential dwarfs private insurance companies (globally combined even) - but more importantly, it indicates and stresses that the purpose of Price is to "Subsidize the danger." - Which is discussed in far more column inches than is the politicaly correct nonesense "Protect the Public" - which in any case is a farce. In what way are the public "Protected" by encouraging power companies to install nuclear bomb on every street corner? Price does not "Increase" the public safety one iota. In truth is deccreases the public safety, but because it is a weapon technology, it decreases the safety of our enemies EVEN MORE. That is the definition of an arms race. Both sides in a race to the bottom. Benjamin Gatti

Shortened criticisms
Now the Act is tilted in favor of nuclear because the criticism section is the shortest. Balance is happily restored. Anyway the important criticism is the fact that victims of criminal action (can you say Enron) by nuclear power companies (like Enron) are not afforded the protections of state and federal (equity) laws.

In this country, a thief who injures himself robbing a bank has more protection than a three year old child exposed to a lifetime of cancers, deformities, and the threat of bearing horribly mutated children against the criminal negliegence of an energy CEO who sacrifices safety to pump up his 100 million dollar year-end bonus. Benjamin Gatti


 * I mean this in the kindest possible way, but how can anybody take your edits seriously when you add things like this with absolutely no acknowledgement that it is a clearly disputed statement of opinion? The absence of liability protections effectively encourages investors to take short-cuts on safety issues You know how NPOV policies work.  So why do this? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 01:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Because he thinks he can slip one by us. Or he just doesn't care. From what he's said in the past, I'd take option B. He's acknowledged that he doesn't care what the other articles on Wikipedia say. He doesn't care how they are structured. He doesn't really care much about how neutral the article is. Again, these aren't attacks. I'm taking this from admissions he's dropped in from time to time during this entire process. And he keeps changing strategies. He's cooperative and then he's beligerent and then he's apologetic and then he's back to putting in whatever he wants. He makes edits without consensus. Threatens to back out of mediation whenever things are turning against his way. In the past, he's tried to game the system by quoting the NPOV policy but then leaving out important points. Again, none of these are personal attacks. It's in the record. To say it's difficult to make heads or tails of his intentions is an understatement. Ben, I kind of wish you'd just be consistent here. If you want to be beligerant and put in whatever you want, fine, but then don't act like you want to cooperate and then go right back to being beligerant. The thing is. We're assuming good faith. We have been since the start. It's just impossible to follow someone who continually reinvents his strategy and keeps altering behavior from one moment to the next. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 02:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * There is also the distinct possibility that (he) simply believes it to be so, finds the position to be well supported in the body of evidence, and proposes that the final opinion include the assertion. This isn't really an emotional issue, I doubt that caring or not caring is highly correlated with the results. I'm certainly not persuaded by consensus in the absence of demonstrated expertise, in the face of empirical evidence such as chernobly, and given factual finding by the SCOTUS, as well as the recent reaffirmation off the necessity of Price, the argument, that nuclear is "safe" is perfectly specious. Benjamin Gatti


 * Ben, even among those exposed to Chernobyl's massive fallout, "there is little evidence of increased mortality, cancers or birth defects among them; and when such evidence is present, existence of a causal link to radioactive contamination is uncertain." If by chance there was an accident and a containment leak and someone didn't get evacuated and was as a result exposed, there's a huge fund for their treatment, Congressional backing, and according to the SC the Tucker Act behind that.  U.S. utility managers are highly motivated not to sacrifice safety, for several reasons, and you never did produce any cites about such doings at Entergy, the second-biggest owner of nuclear units (Exelon, the largest with 20 reactors, did have one allegation against them when I searched).  Median utility CEO total compensation in 2003, including bonus and long-term incentives, was under $4 million .  The facts just don't support your rhetoric. Simesa 03:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Fact. Millions in those regions who were pregnant were encouraged to abort for fear of mutilations. That is prima facia evidence of a profound threat and substantial damages.
 * Fact: (Exelon, the largest with 20 reactors, did have one allegation against them when I searched).
 * Fact: Nuclear energy companies openly discourage public disclosure of safety violations by - among other things beating witnesses within an inch of their life.
 * Fact: A Burglar can sue his/her victim for negligence, but the innocent victim of a criminal nuclear incident is denied access to the liability protections of our "unjustice" system. Benjamin Gatti

Is there any non-trivial objection to citing the Supreme Courts position that all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't insure the nuclear industry from even a single nuclear accident? Benjamin Gatti


 * Is there any non-trivial objection to making Ben stick to the point and not continually go off on tangents? This article is NOT about whether or not nuclear power is dangerous. It's about a law that was passed over 50 years ago, what that law says, how the process it sets works, what the criticisms are of it, etc, etc. It's not about whether or not nuclear power is dangerous. We have an entire article on nuclear power. That's where stuff like your facts belong. This is about the Price-Anderson law. Period. So quit making it something it's not please. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Reverts
Ral, I'm not trying to do your job for ya, but I just reverted to the last consensus version. Again, I thought the whole point of mediation was to decide on a consensus version and *then* change the article to fit the consensus version. Ral, should we protect the article again? Frankly, I'm going to keep reverting back to the consensus version until we come up with a new consensus version. I thought that was the point of mediation. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 02:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Ral, if we protect every article on the wiki which experiences an excess of 1 revert per week, we could rename the site CNN. No one yet has violated the 3RR rule, or even the 1RR "rule". Mike is demonstrating the lost art of overreaction. Kudo's M. Benjamin Gatti


 * No. See Ben, the point of mediation is to come up with consensus versions, i.e. versions that everyone is happy with. It is not to keep making changes when you feel like it. If that was the rule, we wouldn't have mediation since the whole point is to give and take so we can come to a consensus.


 * What's annoying me is that it took me about 6 attempts to get this back reverted to the October 24th version. It's done now. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The point of this mediation (as it appears on the record) was to determine whether or not the wiki itself should presume infalible knowledge of Congress' "intentions" given an assertion of same by the GAO. Care to resolve the point Ral? The rest is just Kabisting while we wait for the jury to come back with the verdict. Benjamin Gatti


 * Um no. The point of this mediation was to come up with a version of this article that we can all be happy about. I really wish you'd quit trying to change the rules of the mediation. It's quite annoying. It's gaming the system. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Protected for now. I'll discuss it in a new section in a few minutes.  Ral315 (talk) 04:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Protected.
Some stats to consider (commenting on size, not substance)

Introduction: 77 words
 * A pretty good length, I think. Ral315 (talk)

Background: 367 words
 * It could be longer, but doesn't need to be if it explains the act fully. Ral315 (talk)

How the law works: 178 words
 * Good length. Ral315 (talk)

Criticisms: 553 words
 * Obviously, this is a problem for many (all?) of you. If we could boil this down to about 300 words, that would be great.  Ral315 (talk)

I've set up a temp page for editing: Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act/Temp. '''As this is a page invisible to the public, feel free to make sweeping changes. But note that the ONE-REVERT RULE is still in effect there.''' The main article will be unprotected when I feel that we've hit a consensus, or everyone involved wants it unprotected. Ral315 (talk) 05:06, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Another note...refer to your edits here with the "permanent link" from the toolbar so that we can all see your particular revision. Thanks :) Ral315 (talk) 05:08, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the 2nd go at trying it this way. Or is it the 3rd? :) But let's hope it's successful or else I'm going to run out of WikiAdvil. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Were you counting my recent version wherein the criiticism section was shortened? The criticism section is not long because of the "critics" it has been bloated by those trying to bury the ugliest truths in a mound of platitudes. Benjamin Gatti

I think it's an important part of Wiki policy that protected pages get listed in that section for protected pages - it tends to bring in additional points of view which may be valuable in resolving the issue. Benjamin Gatti


 * Amazing. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Remember: You need to back up major changes with reasoning. Ral315 (talk) 14:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

How the law works
Okay, I made a first proposed change. Simesa 11:40, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Calling Spade
Price - removes "Public Protections" by suspending laws truly intended to protect the public from dangerous activities of others. Benjamin Gatti


 * Criminal law still applies, and in the words of SCOTUS "in the event of a nuclear accident the utility itself would probably suffer the largest damages." Simesa 14:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Price - removes "Public Protections" by suspending laws truly intended to protect the public from irrational investment in dangerous activities.


 * The people who suffered the most from Chernobly was not kiev, ukraine, or their energy company - it wa in fact the people of Belarus which happened to live to the north and recieved no benefit from the plant during its operation. Benjamin Gatti


 * By now you know enough to know the Chernobyl RBMKs were a special case, unlike any civilian U.S. power plant which (1) don't have graphite in their cores and (2) have real containment buildings (I can't speak for the DOE's weapons-production reactors, but they've all been shut down anyway). And both Canada and Mexico have their own nuclear p[lants. Simesa 07:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Objection to Censorship
"Protecting" a page on account of 1 to 2 edits a week amounts to censorship. Regardless of the subject or any other thing - it is antithetical to the spirit of wikipedia, and not supported by any published policy. I must therefore object. For comparison, the GWBush page is vandalized about twice a second, but remains open for business nonetheless. A double standard here can only be explained by bias or elitism, and the use of censorship to effect either of those is inconsistent with cooperative nature of wikipedia.. Benjamin Gatti


 * Simple vandalism can be reverted easily. This is a content dispute, and I'm using the protection not to censor anyone, but rather to encourage open discussion and editing on the temp page.  Ral315 (talk) 14:32, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, for what it's worth, I had never heard of the Price-Anderson Act prior to this mediation, and my knowledge of nuclear energy was virtually zero. Ral315 (talk) 14:45, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Ral, I'm with ya. I had no idea what it was either. And yes, protection in this case is because people (and it wasn't just you Ben) were making edits without consensus, which defeats the purpose of mediation. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 16:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Intro
Obviously the Intro and Criticisms are areas of discussion, so I suggest they each have their own section in Discussion.

Ben's suggestion is: The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) eliminates the laws which protect the public from criminal, negligent, and irresponsible actions for nuclear power plant operators, as well as the requirements that they be adequately insured for liability. The act "indemnifies" private reactors, as well as some government facilities, but does not cover Navy aircraft carriers and submarines. The Act has enabled private participation in nuclear energy in the United States. Environmental groups, consumer groups, taxpayer watchdogs, as well as the Department of Energy has described or criticized the act as a handout to the rich.

To this I object to "eliminates the laws which protect the public from criminal, negligent, and irresponsible actions" as clearly - and in every nuclear worker's initial training - criminal penalties DO apply. I object to "that they be adequately insured for liability", as who is to judge "adequately"? - Congress aparently thinks so, and the Supreme Court said that inadequacy of $560 million was something "which we have already rejected." "Rich" is Ben's personal interpretation - in the recent past utility rates were set by Public Utilities Commissions, and now they're set by the marketplace; I suggest this statement would need an a good, solid cite.

I'll try to blend the initial and Ben's Intros. Simesa 14:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Objection to "that they be fully insured and/or accountable for liability" ?
 * The DOE has said it is a subsidy for investors. Who are investors if not the rich, and who are taxpayers if not the Poor - remember that income derived from investments are taxed at a lower percent, so the burden of taxes is on the working class principly - who recieve little or no offset subsidies. Benjamin Gatti

Criticisms
I rewrote Criticisms - for the first two paragraphs the changes were minor.

But I'm amazed - no one else objected to the line "Like all subsidies, Price Anderson raises the price of its target commodity by forcing the market to make poor decisions."??? Subsidies immediately lower the price of commodities. If we want to discuss long-term effects of subsidies, we'd need a fairly comprehensive study to cite, as it's not always true that subsidies raise prices in the long-term (windmills, for example).

"Strong financial incentive"? A reload is $150 million. Plants should cost about $1.5 billion. Even the top number, $33 million, if the U.S. government were to charge it, is hardly a deciding factor.

The next line, "The costs of Nuclear energy were grossly underexagerated, and have in fact turned out to be more expensive and dangerous than clean, safe alternatives, such as wind power" is just a commercial for renewables with no impact on Price-Anderson, so I cut it. (As an aside, nuclear did become far more expensive due to huge building delays when the post-Three Mile Island modifications had to be incorporated, but those modifications - and more - are incorporated up-front now.)

I get the feeling that we are missing some valid criticisms, but I'll have to go back and compare to the current article. Mediation isn't a negotiation as to "what I can get in", it's a decision process as to what should be in.Simesa 08:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I've added some criticisms back in. Simesa 08:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

1. Presuming that a freedom market is superior to a command economy in providing the best goods at the lowest price, then a deviation from the former raises the cost as the latter is approached. To argue that a free market is not the most effecient is non-trivial, and certainly has not been made here - or referenced. 2. The high number (33M) is annual, a reload is (3-10 years?), and the overnight cost is amortized over 40+ years. Benjamin Gatti P.S. yes I know what a sequitur isn't - and how it's spelled.

Price removes Protection
This is an important point. It removes the basic protections of laws which require those who cause damages to be held responsable for those damages. Without such laws, there would have been zero safety improvements either in cars, industry, airflight - or any other commercial enterprize. Notably after 50 years, nuclear energy is no more safe than it was at the beginning - the incentive to improve is gone - gone - gone. Benjamin Gatti


 * (see below) Simesa 09:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Can you please translate this into language changes you're seeking? &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 21:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The purpose of liability laws are to hold persons (ie companies and their investors) completely responsible financially for the damages they may cause. This risk of being sued for damages is what causes car companies to recall their vehicles and correct mistakes. It is a critical part of the give and take of what makes this nation what it is. In other countries - such as Mexico - it is far more likely that careless behaviour which causes damages will not result in justice - or equity - that is the making whole of the injured party at the expense of the responsable party. Price Anderson directly interfers with the only real protection injured people have against those who in their greed would seek to profit by putting other's lives at increased risk.


 * "The Act removes the quintiessential protections which allow the victims of greed and negligence to be made whole by the courts." Benjamin Gatti


 * I added the line "This limited liability is in contrast to most other industries, which are generally mostly or fully liable for the troubles and difficulties that their products cause." You guys can reword but I think that's what Ben is getting at. I'm not giving this as "my version". Just trying to translate Ben's words into something NPOV. That's as close as I can get, even though again, it's it can easily be viewed as another criticism seeping into this article. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 00:44, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I Think that is progress. Two points: The "Protections" were removed by price - not added. Suggesting that the government is adding protection by promising to bail-out the victims is redundant - look at Katrina and every other disaster natural or man-made - the government bails out victims - with or without some prior rhetoric. The difference is that the teeth of liability laws which do in fact guard the safety of each of us by threatening those who would harm us with significant and negative results have been detoothed. The direction which Protection has taken as a result is negative - while the rhetoric is more Washingtonian perjury.
 * The second point is that Nuclear ought to be compared to its peers specifically - with which it competes. Yes - the general case is that most industries are motivated to improve their safety by imposing the burden of liability on the prime mover. But the specific, and more relevent case is that all other forms of energy are compelled to fully fund their own liabilities and risks, and that to be competative, they must fund their risks and still cost less than nuclear - with its risks fully subsidized. This is a tall order. Equivelent to requiring a marathon runner to be competative while one runner gets a limosine ride during the uphill parts. Benjamin Gatti


 * How can you look at designs like the ABWR, the passively-safe designs and the inherently-safe PBMR and say there's been no progress in safety??? The post-TMI mods?  The IPE process for each plant? Simesa 09:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Because - as the SCOTUS says - in spite of much research, the probablity of a catastrophic accident is greater than 0. In spite of the improvements, the world insurance community is unwilling to insure nuclear plants (still). The plan for Price was as an introductory offer - the reality is that it is still required. You claim that nuclear is safe - the problem is neither SCOTUS or the insuranc market find your claim persuasive - why should I? more importantly why should our readers? Benjamin Gatti


 * Actually, with the PBMR the chance of a meltdown WILL be zero, and Price-Anderson won't be needed. Congress found nuclear to be persuasively safe, and insurance companies certainly are willing to sell nuclear all the insurance they can. Simesa 23:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You always ignore criminal penalties. And I disagree that the Congressional promise is redundant - it isn't for banks, for example.  And, other than immediate life-support, the Katrina victims are getting mostly low-interest loans, which if used will have to be paid back. (Simesa 09:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC))


 * Begging pardon for bifurcating your comment; I don't ignore criminal penalties, but how are the trials of Lay, Ebbers, Fastow etc... going to put the money back in the pockets of those who were damaged by their actions. Nuclear plants cannot effectively be tried for crimes at a corporate level, but they can be held financially liable, and that is the biggest stick when dealing with corps - you know this of course, being a far cry from stupid, but look at chernobly - rules were violated, presumably even international laws, was anyone put in prison? What if we sell a nuclear plant to nicaragua, and they sort of screw up, being a bit less uptight about laws than we are, and a cloud spreads over half a continent - how are putting a few hired hands trying to feed their family in jail going to rewind a nuclear event? - won't happen. The only way to prevent a nuclear event is to make t so expensive for the companies involved that they either find a less risky way to generate electricity, or make damn sure there is a zero chance of failure, fraud, corruption, sabatoge etc, or that if there is, the damage is contained. Benjamin Gatti


 * For those who are wondering, Lay, Ebbers and Fastow refer to corporate fraud cases . Yes, people were put in jail for Chernobyl:
 * "The trial of the persons accused of being responsible for the Chernobil accident started in July 1987 in Kiev. Two operators, who were originally accused, turned out to be innocent and their firmness was appreciated. (Due to the large dose exposure both of them have died since then.) Verdict was delivered three weeks later. Brukhanov, director of the power plant and Fomin, chief engineer (for tolerating the constructional deficiencies during the building phase of the plant) and Diatlov deputy chief engineer (for the experiment performed irresponsibly) were sentenced for ten years of imprisonment, while three others were sentenced between five and two years. Some of them had to released because their health was damaged by the suffered radiation dose."
 * Plants sold to foreign countries are not covered by Price-Anderson, which hasn't stopped GE from selling to Mexico, Spain, Taiwan, etc. I agree with the contained viewpoint. Simesa 09:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Your analogy is poor. The subsidy is estimated to be at most $33 million per year per reactor, when a reload costs $150 million and a plant should cost $1.5 billion.  The maximum $33 million would be noticed, but is hardly something the industry couldn't live with. Simesa 09:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * As I said above. The anualized frequency would be significant, in addition to which insurance doesn't fully mitigate risk. Bankrupcy is the only limit to liability claims, and a single event could trigger damages in excess of the insurance carriers liquidity, and thereby challenge the companys involved directly. Benjamin Gatti


 * If your goal is to eliminate Price-Anderson so as to reduce competition, that ship has sailed. Simesa 09:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually that ship has just become ripe for a Constitutional challenge. I definately see Price going to the Supremes again - the one ruling is unpersuasive, based on insufficient data (pre-chernobly), and deals with the rights of victims to be treated equally regardless of the cause of their damages. I believe a stronger argument is the right of wind generators to be treated equally with others in their industry - and not to be exposed to unfair and government subsidized competition. Benjamin Gatti

I can see that in the latest edit Ben has returned to aggressive negotiating. I thought Woohookitty's compromise was a bit much, and I can see that Ben has rejected it as well. I'll try writing my own compromise. Simesa 23:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Flurry of Substance

 * Perhaps an idea which might help - Instead of the proponents making the sugar-coated case, and leaving it to me to prove some factual deficiency in the best case scenario, how about if the proponents prove some factual inconsistency in the worst-case scenario - which generally is that:


 * 1) In spite of best efforts, all nuclear plant designs available for construction as of 2005 conform to the finding of SCOTUS that "[the risk of catastrophic damages is greater than 0]".
 * 2) That investors, even if by negligence or criminal activity, join in a corporation and cause nuclear damages, would not risk the loss of their investments to those they injure.
 * 3) That investors in safe clean energy have fewer protections against their specialized risks than investors in nuclear energy.
 * 4) That safe clean energy must compete on price with a severe handicap of fewer developmental subsidies, less avoided cost subsidies, and fewer red tape subsidies than nuclear (with almost zero federal support - and some state-level support). Benjamin Gatti


 * Actually, a PBMR has operated in Germany. The passively-safe ESBWR is about to be ordered, and should also have a zero risk of meltdown for at least three days after a LOCA.
 * Investors would lose their investment in the plant, over 1.5 billion dollars, plus up to 95.8 million more at each reactor. That's quite a large risk.
 * This may be true, but then again they pay far less insurance per kilowatt.
 * You don't know government paperwork until you've worked in nuclear (even the site fence defies belief). The subsidies are decided by Congress, and in the new Energy Policy Act of 2005 wind and wave power are being subsidized as well.
 * Simesa 01:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * If safe reactors were available - then Price would not be necessary for the next generation of nuclear plants (per the SCOTUS argument).
 * Investors losses would be limited to the plant, or more meaningfully, their exposure is limited to the ratio that a single plant represents relative to the entire corporation. GE - for example builds all sorts of plants and many of them, the loss of a single reactor would presumably represent less that 1% of the entire portfolio value - while the damages could in fact represent 100% of the portfolio and more. Consequently Price protects 99% of the portfolio value even from criminal and negligent damages.
 * Yes - they pay less per kw in liability insurance, but wind has risks, which like nuclear, are unique to the technology, specifically wind is highly sensative to future fuel prices and rates of inflation. Fairness, I suggest, would mean leveling the risk field - regardless of how the risks are allocated.
 * A mountain of paperwork won't stop a nuclear event. In fact, unecessary paperwork can increase the problem as it makes it more difficult to make objective improvments. Providing economic incentives to be safe - in my opinion is a powerful tool for improving technologies, it has worked excellently in many cases. Benjamin Gatti


 * I agree that Price-Anderson is necessary for one new generation of plants.
 * One of the points of Price-Anderson exactly - company officers were not willing to risk the unrelated portions of their entire companies. Once(if) the industry evolves, that might be handled by spinoffs, as Westinghoue has spun off the Westinghouse Electric Company and GE spun off Global Nuclear Fuels.
 * Under deregulation, competition affects all producers equally: wind and wave, like nuclear, have high capital and maintenance costs but low fuel costs (unless you count the gas turbines necessary to back up wind power). Are you referring to potential tornado and hurricane damage?
 * I disagree that adequate paperwork won't prevent accidents, having dealt with some of that myself. The paperwork can get massive - that's why much of it is "controlled copies", and why the IPE process was computer-based.
 * Simesa 10:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Then you agree that the new generation is in fact dangerous - ie risk of damages is higher than potential market value.
 * Corporate shielding is a pruriet and increasingly less effective gambit, If nuclear plants were safe, then there would be no risk, if they are not safe, then the corporations which build them (and yes, that is likely to be large corporations) ought to be fully responsible for their criminal or negligent activities. - removing this requirement is Removing a Public Protection agreed?
 * Paperwork - yawn, let's agree it's not a serious issue either way.

Benjamin Gatti


 * My reading of designs and PRA results indicates that the current generation of U.S. plants are more than adequately safe, the next generation of passively-safe designs are extremely safe, and the generation after that is expected to be inherently safe.
 * Not agreed, as the public is adequately protected by Price-Anderson as found in the Supreme Court decision - the government chose to step in, and to impose stricter laws upon nuclear-related corporations as well as individuals (see, for example, the replies in ).
 * Simesa 03:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Temp Edits

 * Actually Simesa, I was just trying to NPOV the words Ben was trying to use. Didn't see it as trying to make a compromise. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:15, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * But apparently, Ben thought I was agreeing with him, so he attempted a ridiculously POV edit. Won't you ever give up? An edit that POV is *never* going to be accepted by Simesa, Katefan and myself. Ever. I mean...


 * "The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act removes the protections victims deserve against companies which by criminal, negligent, or malicious means cause or permit nuclear radiation to harm the public."


 * "Deserve" is a word that should never be in an intro of a Wikipedia article unless it's something like "some argue that people deserve...". Ral, the thing that's so frustrating here is that Ben doesn't just go an inch into POV land. He's go so far into it that it's impossible to negotiate on it. How do you compromise on something THAT POV? I mean in the part I quoted, it's entirely POV from removes to public. I can't even start to couch that it's so POV. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 04:29, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * What you have failed to argue is which part is false. I'm sure once we agree on the facts, the neutral expression of same will come.


 * Would you accept Benjamin Gatti


 * Ben, that's not the issue. We need to make the article NPOV. It needs to be balanced. What you give here is even more POV than what you put on the temp page. And then you cry censorship when you know it's not the issue. I agree with your points. I always have. But that's not the point. We're building a NPOV, collaborative encyclopedia. I've told you all of this before many many times. We're just going round in circles.


 * The problem, Ben, is that you seem to throw fact and opinion all into one pot. What you put here and on the temp page is *your opinion*. It's not "facts". It's your take on the facts, which is your opinion. I'm not singling you out. It's a common misconception about Wikipedia that I run into on political articles constantly. Wikipedia is not about throwing opinions into the articles and then seeing what fits. It's not let's put up one opinion and then put another one up there and let's see what the majority agrees with. Instead, it's writing articles with no particular opinion. Neutral articles. That's why I refuse to argue what you call "facts". It's not the issue. The issue is that we need to have an article that presents both sides of the issue in as neutral language as possible. Even the critical sections of articles need to follow some semblance of NPOV. In other words, it always has to be "some argue" or "some say" or "critics say". Even the critical sections of articles don't try the stuff you try. It doesn't use the authoritative voice to declare that the law is evil.


 * Anyway, I'm just tired of doing this over and over and over again. We're not allowing words that POV into the article. I don't know how many times I have to say that. You make no effort to make the language neutral. You expect us to do all of the couching and then you complain when we do it. Enough! --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 05:19, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Mike, where you and I get stuck I believe is that you want to assert an opinion of the GAO - that is this assertion that congress "intended" to "protect" the public with Price. I think this is a. an opinion, and b. ridiculous. I believe they intended to improve funding for the coldwar nuclear race by compelling the electrical market to fund nuclear reactors whether it made economic sense or not. In my opinion that is a morally neutral choice in the context of a race, but given that the context is now anachronistic, I believe the market should be freed from this irrational constraint. In any case, this assertion can/should not be asserted as an unqualified fact any more than my opinions to the contrary should be. We will stop this editwar only when we can agree on that point. Meanwhile, ink is free. Benjamin Gatti


 * I really wish you'd be consistent on tactics. Now we're back to "on target, cooperative" Ben. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

From the Archives
This was an intro I proposed some months back - Anyone care to attack it factually - or is everyone content to try to endrun the facts by complaining about personalities?

"The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (1957) provides Federal Indemnity for private nuclear reactor operators against catastrophic nuclear accidents in the United States. The Act releases plant operators from Federal and State liability laws under which the operators could be held financially responsible for any and all damage to the public caused by a nuclear accident or similar radiological event. Because the nascent insurance industry did not offer policies large enough to cover the costs of a nuclear event in the 1950's, and because the cost would render nuclear energy uncompetative, Congress established a pooled insurance system in which each reactor would insure all of the other reactors up to USD $88 Million per reactor with the Federal government providing up to USD $500 Million additional insurance if necessary; Congress also limited the amount of compensation permitted for people killed, poisened, or genetically disfigured by nuclear radiation, even if caused by the knowing and willful misconduct of senior staff and management. The Act is a risk subsidy which artificially reduces the cost of nuclear energy, making it nearly competative with coal and oil. Like most subsides, it has been panned by both left-wing environmentalists and right-wing fiscal conservatives as contrary to a free market, and a form of corporate welfare which takes from the poor and gives to a few comparatively wealthy energy investors.

Benjamin Gatti


 * While I've been trying not to comment that much on individual ideas, remember that NPOV is not achieved by text that distracts the user's emotions from the issue. I'm looking at "genetically disfigured" specifically.  And a word change may be in order in the case of 'nascent' - I consider myself well read, but can honestly say I've never heard the word used.  (I have no opinion on the content of this paragraph personally, however, either way) Ral315 (talk) 02:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * How would you describe children born with genetically contained deformities induced by exposure to radiation in utero other than this? Are you suggesting we use euphemisms such as collateral damage? We do not have a mandate to clothe a holocaust in a shroud of presumed righteousness. Here is the dictionary per the US Army at


 * "(a) At 15 rad, there may be up to a 6% chance that the child could be mentally retarded. Conversely, there is at least a 94% chance the child will not have such a radiation- induced anomaly. "


 * 'f. Heritable changes in the reproductive organs may occur that could, theoretically, affect the progeny of the conceptus but not the conceptus itself.'''


 * 2. Effect of ionizing radiation.
 * a. Malformation and Prenatal Death
 * b. Growth Retardation
 * c. Neurological Effects
 * d. Severe Mental Retardation
 * e. Intellectual deficit
 * f. Seizures
 * g. Occurrence of Malignancies.


 * Benjamin Gatti


 * At extremely high dosages the above are possible, which is why the NRC mandated nuclear-grade designs and construction, licensed operators, containments, 10-mile Emergency Planning Zones and FEMA-supervised annual drills.
 * Harvard Medical School researched the radioogical results of Chernobyl in.
 * Simesa 03:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * We agree, These are the risks which victims would not have recourse against a corporation, which even by criminal means, caused a radiation incident in the United States. The probability is high enough that nuclear energy companies are unwilling to take the risk - do they know something you don't? BIO Benjamin Gatti


 * All I'm saying is that it distracts the reader from the main issue, which is the act itself. And now, I'm going to leave the rest of you to decide whether it belongs.  Ral315 (talk) 05:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Kicking up dust
Mike has drawn up a personality complaint (which is common enough when losing the battle on the merits) I have taken the liberty to respond and list this article, as well as the complaint under: Requests for comment/Maths, natural science, and technology, and may I suggest things were more civil prior to the censorship regime. I'm not fond of censorship, it is unpersuasive at best, and tends not to bring out anyone's friendlier side. Benjamin Gatti 01:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * May I say that the reason I locked the main page was that any time a user changed something, it was quickly changed and edited, and then someone would inevitably decide that the changed version was inferior (whether it was or not, I don't know), and revert. Nobody was making any real progress- in three tries, the page was reverted within just hours.  Censorship was not my goal; in fact, I believe that having edits on a temp page promotes more open discussion of the topic.  Ral315 (talk) 02:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Locking a page promotes the agenda of the last editor, and it violates established wikipedia policy, which in my opinion, is a poor way to advocate that others comply. Benjamin Gatti


 * Unprotecting would certainly unleash edit-warring. Simesa 04:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Ben, #1 me opening a RfC against you is not an issue for this page. And #2, apparently you think this is some sort of joke. You actually signed the proposed RfC I made (it isn't even live yet) as God. And you also put in your own text in the "parties to the dispute" section. I'd suggest you take all of this more seriously. It's not "censorship". It's following the rules of the site. Please start following them. It's not your words we object to. It's the never ending delaying tactics and the always changing strategy and the constant gaming of the system. I'd politely suggest that you stop treating this all as a fiddle. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Good luck with your Jihad, I've already got God on my side (dibs). (every epic conflict involves manipulating with side God favors, Vietnam was US v. godless commies, now its the baptized GW v. the uncircumcized). Well, you've already deleted the response of your target - so I'm confident people will see through your chirade. Benjamin Gatti


 * Please, guys, let's keep the personal attacks, and the religion and politics out. We're here to write an encyclopedia, not bring up partisan views.  Ral315 (talk) 06:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe Mike has established that he is here to censor the views of others by any means. He drew up a slanderpage, invited his friends to comment, and then when I responded in the (response) section of the RfC template, he promptly excized it, and when I reverted his vandalism, he had one of his admin friends purge the evidence. I object and complain. Benjamin Gatti
 * Actually, what he did was begin drawing up an RFC on you in his personal user space. You chose to edit it instead of waiting until it was posted in the Wikipedia main space. The one being disruptive was you. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 16:29, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have never done any business with User:Doc glasgow. He is not my "admin friend". And #2, please take responsibility for your actions. If we do put a Request for Comment on you, it's not like I made all of your actions up out of whole cloth. Yes Ben, I'm just out to hang you. Please. And by the way Ben, this isn't the place for this. If you want to complain about any administrator actions I've made, you can do so on the appropriate RfC page. The thing is, there is absolutely no policy against opening a "practice" RfC page on one's userspace and to tell others about it. It's been done many times in the past and it'll be done many times in the future. And I wish you would quit yelling censorship. What? We're just supposed to let Wikipedia become a free for all. See, that's what blogs are for. If chastising you because you keep violating policy is "censorship", then i guess all of our policies are "censorship".


 * And the other thing is that this is not the only article. So if we do open a RfC on you, it's about your user conduct, not about any specific article. I mention this because when I had the page up, you had something up from when Ral said that the arby committee doesn't take up content disputes. Well Ben, this is more than a content dispute. It's continued bad behavior that has been demonstrated in this article, in Looting, nuclear power and some others.


 * Anyway Ral, sorry for this, but I felt like I needed to respond to his latest series of attacks. I'm a respected administrator. I am not out to "censor" anyone. Please. Yes, I woke up today and went "How can I screw Ben?". No. I'm attempting to keep Wikipedia clean and tidy and without bias. That's the job that the people who voted for me wanted me to do and I'll continue to do that job. This whole argument is not about censoring Benjamin Gatti. It's about getting this page to be NPOV. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 16:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Certainly Mike is permitted to open up an RfC anywhere he wants, but those who are criticised "By Name" in any forum have the absolute right to respond. Deleting such a response is censorship of the highest order, and has nothing to do with neat and tidy. Benjamin Gatti


 * Ben, it wasn't live yet! And it was within my rights to ask for its speedy deletion. Here is the policy. Read it. Or do your usual and don't. Your choice. Btw, notice that the entire subpage is deleted, not just your comment. So it's not as if I just removed your comments. They are all removed. Also, once the RfC goes live, you will have every chance to respond. So let's drop the "Censorship!!" cry, shall we? I violated no policies. It was something on my own personal user page. You could do the exact same thing. Despite what you implied, I did not "pull rank". Any user could have asked for that page to be speedied. And the request would've been granted because users can ask for their subpages to be deleted. So let's not make this into something it's not. And one more thing. Putting a practice RfC on my user page is NOT "opening up a RfC". It's not as if it's official. It's not as if other users will treat it as official. It's just another attempt at gaming the system. You know the policy. You know I'm within my rights. So drop it already and let's get back to the issues, shall we? --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 20:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Mike, your criticisms were both personal and public enough that Simesa, Kate, and I all knew about them, use whatever rationale you like, I will not concede the absolute right of a person named in a complaint to respond, and subsequent censorship is condemnable. You do not have the right to censor those who are defending themself from your baseless attacks. Benjamin Gatti


 * Go away. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 21:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Revert of 10/31/05 3 am UTC
I'm reverting because of the following objections to the following lines:

The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) eliminates public safety laws in all fifty states


 * Nonsense, Title 10 of the Code of Federal Regulations covers nuclear safety.

and protects criminally negligent nuclear operators from being held financially responsible for criminal acts


 * The Supreme Court said "the utility itself would probably suffer the largest damages", and criminal law is enhanced, not reduced.

The Act makes it a crime for private persons to protect themselves against a nuclear event by insuring their own property against an explosion at a nuclear energy plant.


 * No it doesn't - the situation there is that the industry has already bought up all the insurance available, as required by the Act.

In the event that a corporation commits a criminal act which leads to wide-spread devastation similar to Chernobl, taxpayers and victims, rather than the corporation will be held financially responsible for the damage.


 * The reactors will be liable for at least $10 billion, but this statement is partially correct - but since Chernobyl was vastly unlike any U.S. power plant, it doesn't belong in the intro.

The Act is part of the Energy Policy of President George W. Bush.


 * So what? Congress passed the Energy Policy Act of 2005 with bi-partisan support, why mention Bush but not that?

Simesa 04:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yep. Again, the problem is that some of edits go so far into POV land that they are unrecoverable. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)